UW-madison vs UMN vs UIUC

[pancakesandwaffles]

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Starting a new thread after getting into UW and having visited all three schools, I've seen that they are all stellar programs, and I am very stressed about trying to decide which school to attend. OOS for all and I am very lucky to have family supporting me for my tuition. It seems like the overall cost will be roughly for the same for all 3. So this is not a main factor in my decision.

It is even more difficult because I don't know what I want to do, I am interested in equine (sports medicine) but also interested in specializing in neuro or cardio. Because of this, I want to go to the school that will give me the greatest breadth of experience in the most areas possible, specifically hands-on experience. I assume if I go the sports med route, a lot of this experience will be in externships and then an internship? So the difference would be more in terms of specializing? But I could be wrong.

this is the main info I have gathered from my tours, and I would love to know if any of it seems unimportant to those who are currently in vet school:

UMN:
- Anatomy lab - dissect 1 small and 1 large animal
- mix of P/F courses in 1st year, transitions to fully graded courses in 3rd year to help transition
- No real clinical skills lab? I don't know if this is true but I didn't see anything on my tour. I didn't think to ask because it was the first school I toured
- exams are online and you have 3 days to take them which seems nice for flexibility
- COL seems mid range, since it is a big city there is lots to do & it is close to the airport
- decent equine caseload, LA clerkship, mini rotations
- new small animal hospital run entirely by students

UIUC
- Anatomy lab - dissect 1 dog and 1/2 of a horse
- The "foundations" course is lumped together so you only get 1 grade for all classes, which will be a letter grade, whilst clinics are P/F
- Extensive clinical skills lab that is open 24/7
- 2 big exams per 8 week quarter
- COL lower, no disrespect to those who live here but it seemed boring and not a good food scene
- good equine caseload at midwest equine which looks like an ambulatory service? unclear if students work with this.
- 8 weeks of clinic rotations in your 1st and 2nd year + 1 week of clinical skills lab in these years

UW
- Anatomy lab - 1 small animal dissection No LA dissection - they said you look at prosections and i would love to know if this is something I should be worried about
- All classes are P/F throughout 4 years
- Extensive clinical skills lab, unclear if it is open after hours
- 2 years of flipped classroom curriculum with asynchronous learning, only the 2nd year of this so our class would still be guinea pigs for this, year 3 is case based learning
- 1 exam every 2 weeks
- the equine caseload seems to be smallest out of the 3
- they have a brand new small animal hospital, definitely the nicest facilities of the 3
- I loved Madison and would definitely enjoy living here the most, although it has the highest COL

Thanks for any info y'all can provide😭 this is such a difficult decision. I've also been waitlisted at CSU and UF so queue another crashout if I happen to get into either school.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Wait, UW Madison is P/F?? Is this part of the curriculum change?

 

[pancakesandwaffles]

Wait, UW Madison is P/F?? Is this part of the curriculum change?

Yes. They have 3 grades: Pass, something in between, and unsatisfactory. I believe there is more info online if you look up the onward curriculum but essentially it is P/F however, you can see your grade percentage in Canvas, and your grade will be sent to schools should you choose to go through the match program

 

[supershorty]

No real clinical skills lab? I don't know if this is true but I didn't see anything on my tour. I didn't think to ask because it was the first school I toured

There is a practice area, it's called the zone (unless they've changed that since my graduation in '24). Always accessible as is the anatomy lab.

Clinical skills labs are held in student surgery but the Zone has everything you need for practicing whatever you want, including the ability to provide cadavers.

 

[_rae_]

Couple of things about UMN:

- Anatomy lab - dissect 1 small and 1 large animal

Unless they're changing the curriculum, you work in groups. Semester one is small animal and your group will get one dog and two cat cadavers. Semester two, the whole class gets two sheep, two calves, and a horse that you rotate through.

- mix of P/F courses in 1st year, transitions to fully graded courses in 3rd year to help transition

You have two course first year that aren't P/F, second year first semester there are about 5 classes that you can select P/F or A-F, most classes second semester second year are A-F.

- No real clinical skills lab? I don't know if this is true but I didn't see anything on my tour. I didn't think to ask because it was the first school I toured

Like shorty said, we have a Clinical Skills class every semester (Clinical Skills I-VI). Our "labs" rotate between the Veterinary Skills Lab, Veterinary Student Surgery, the teaching barn (bovine), and the Dudley barn (equine). The zone has supplies to practice almost any skill we're taught in class.

- exams are online and you have 3 days to take them which seems nice for flexibility

They are trying to change this for some classes. We have a few that are only open for 48 hours now, and some of our finals are online but are time limited and in person.

- COL seems mid range, since it is a big city there is lots to do & it is close to the airport

I would still say it's expensive. Not anywhere near as expensive as Boston where I used to live, but still expensive. We have a two bedroom apartment in an up/down duplex in Saint Paul that we pay $1795/mo for (utilities separate).

- decent equine caseload, LA clerkship, mini rotations

This is pretty accurate.

- new small animal hospital run entirely by students

Soooooo we're not entirely sure how this clinic is going to work yet. Yes it's a spectrum of care clinic, yes the intent is for students to be primary clinicians, but it's not up and running and our current caseload is limited to staff and student pets. It's primarily a preventative care clinic so it's GP exams, labs, and dentals. The hope is eventually to have basic surgeries (spays, neuters, benign mass removals, etc.), but they don't think they'll have that running for my class.

Feel free to ask any questions! I can't speak to UW or Illinois, but happy to give you any info I have on UMN.

 

[battie]

This is speaking as someone who graduated in 2021.

- Anatomy lab - dissect 1 dog and 1/2 of a horse

We all did two dogs (1male and 1 female) and either 1/2 calf (cow) or 1/2 mini pony. So this has changed. Not sure why. Maybe @soupshark can confirm?

It was honestly a ton of what felt like busy work and dissecting out did not really help me learn overall. So if the reduced dissection means you have more time to actually study with the specimens, awesome.

- The "foundations" course is lumped together so you only get 1 grade for all classes, which will be a letter grade, whilst clinics are P/F

So "foundations" doesn't really apply to the whole didactic curriculum. Years 1-3 have the classes lumped together for 1 mega course per quarter. So you get 9 total letter grades for didactics (August of first year to March of third year). Year 1 is "normal animal" so to speak. Then year 2 is "diseased animal". Year three is "fix the animal". All from a lecture perspective.

- Extensive clinical skills lab that is open 24/7

Don't get me wrong. This is cool. If you actually have the self-discipline to use it.

- 2 big exams per 8 week quarter

Blessing and a curse. Great to not feel the pressure of a test every day of your life. However, depending on the quarter, those two tests can be up to 90% of your grade.

- COL lower, no disrespect to those who live here but it seemed boring and not a good food scene

I'm from Denver and it was fine for me. But I also didn't spend a ton of money going out either. I loved Seven Saints as my fave, go to restaurant that I took everyone who visited me. But otherwise, I didn't go out of my way to spend the money.

- good equine caseload at midwest equine which looks like an ambulatory service? unclear if students work with this.

This was the equine primary care rotation when I was in school.

- 8 weeks of clinic rotations in your 1st and 2nd year + 1 week of clinical skills lab in these years

This sounds way cooler than it actually is in hindsight. I loved rotations while in school. Now that I'm almost 5 years out, it was a waste of time. I would have rather had a 2+2 program like Mizzou or Mississippi where we get through the classroom stuff in two years, then have a minimum 4wk rotations through clinics for the following two years.

 

[soupshark]

UIUC
- Anatomy lab - dissect 1 dog and 1/2 of a horse
- The "foundations" course is lumped together so you only get 1 grade for all classes, which will be a letter grade, whilst clinics are P/F
- Extensive clinical skills lab that is open 24/7
- 2 big exams per 8 week quarter
- COL lower, no disrespect to those who live here but it seemed boring and not a good food scene
- good equine caseload at midwest equine which looks like an ambulatory service? unclear if students work with this.
- 8 weeks of clinic rotations in your 1st and 2nd year + 1 week of clinical skills lab in these years

For UIUC, each anatomy group gets 2 dogs-- a male and a female-- and 1/2 of a horse OR cow. It's recommended everyone rotates specimens so you get experience with everything. We also have open lab sessions where we can ask instructors questions, watch demos, and take a look at other specimens that you aren't working on in your group, like a cow if you have a horse, or a different breed of dog. The lab is open 24/7 for you to go in and look at cadavers and prosections and study.

CU is definitely not boring, but it's not the greatest food scene. If you want to know more about what there is to do let me know!

Midwest is ambo and they just moved into the VTH. You work with them during school and there are opportunities to work with them over breaks!

We don't have an official "clinical skills lab week." We have CS rotations that are embedded in 1st and 2nd year clinics quarters. I like this set up because it's integrated into the rotations' curriculum, so I find it easier to learn and retain when you are directly applying it to whatever you are learning on that rotation.

I also really love the 2 exams per quarter because I'd rather spend 4 weeks studying for one midterm and get it all done at once and move on than have 2-3+ exams per week. It's a lot less stressful and scary than it sounds. The exams are big but that means we get the entire day before (sometimes two days) off, and there is nothing scheduled before/after the exams either. It also means you can get a lot wrong and still score well. So you go in to take your tests Thursday and Friday, then get to go home and do nothing but relax and have fun over the weekend. It also allows a flexible study schedule, so if you are sick or tired for a few days, it's not going to hurt you to not study.

 

[soupshark]

This is speaking as someone who graduated in 2021.


We all did two dogs (1male and 1 female) and either 1/2 calf (cow) or 1/2 mini pony. So this has changed. Not sure why. Maybe @soupshark can confirm?

It was honestly a ton of what felt like busy work and dissecting out did not really help me learn overall. So if the reduced dissection means you have more time to actually study with the specimens, awesome.

It hasn't changed. I didn't see your response until I already wrote mine out lol.

I actually felt like dissection helped me study A LOT and I stayed late an hour or two every lab period to keep working and identifying structures, then I'd come back in on the weekend and identify on a prosection. I also enjoyed having a little bit of a break to do something with my hands. So just another perspective for OP to consider.

 

[battie]

It hasn't changed. I didn't see your response until I already wrote mine out lol.

I actually felt like dissection helped me study A LOT and I stayed late an hour or two every lab period to keep working and identifying structures, then I'd come back in on the weekend and identify on a prosection. I also enjoyed having a little bit of a break to do something with my hands. So just another perspective for OP to consider.

I mean, I failed anatomy the first time around. So maybe I'm the problem and not dissection 🤣

 

[pp9]

UIUC
- Anatomy lab - dissect 1 dog and 1/2 of a horse

We all did two dogs (1male and 1 female) and either 1/2 calf (cow) or 1/2 mini pony.

For UIUC, each anatomy group gets 2 dogs-- a male and a female-- and 1/2 of a horse OR cow. It's recommended everyone rotates specimens so you get experience with everything. We also have open lab sessions where we can ask instructors questions, watch demos, and take a look at other specimens that you aren't working on in your group, like a cow if you have a horse, or a different breed of dog. The lab is open 24/7 for you to go in and look at cadavers and prosections and study.

From a 2019er, just wanted to add in that there were also a fair number of prosections we needed to study/know. It's been a while but I remember there being pig/cat/sheep (?) prosections we had to know and that were on our practicals. We also had the fresh tissues to worry about too, although I honestly am not remembering when those came into play or what we were dissecting for.

The way they used to do it is that group 1 would get a horse, group 2 (which was directly across from group 1) would get a cow. At the end of every week, group 1 and 2 (or 2/3, 4/5, etc) would ideally have finished their dissections and would walk the other group through that week's structures. The downside is that if you wanted to come in on a night/weekend and self study, you'd have to know what group was actually done with their dissection/did the best job and haul that cadaver out of the cooler.

good equine caseload at midwest equine which looks like an ambulatory service? unclear if students work with this.

I was not/am not an equine person, but I did do this year's interviews with the head clinician of Midwest equine and got to hear her give her spiel 20 times in a row lol. it sounds like they've increased their equine offerings since I've graduated (and I do think UofI still had a lot of equine stuff then); Midwest equine was just becoming a thing during my fourth year. Honestly equine anything gave probably the most hands-on experience during fourth year, aside from FARMS.

I personally did not feel 'bored' during my equine rotations and if they are making even more effort to continue building up clientele/offer additional services, I imagine it's even busier now.

exams are online and you have 3 days to take them which seems nice for flexibility

This should have no real bearing on your decision, I'm just curious how they are doing this while preventing cheating/'open-book' exams. UofI's exams were technically online too, but you had to sit in the room with everyone while taking them at the specific time the exam was available. And could not access the exam unless you were on school wifi or whatever.

I mean, I failed anatomy the first time around. So maybe I'm the problem and not dissection 🤣

I agree though. Dissection wasn't learning, it was a means to get to the part where you could start learning. I was underwater with dissection the entire year

 

[soupshark]

From a 2019er, just wanted to add in that there were also a fair number of prosections we needed to study/know. It's been a while but I remember there being pig/cat/sheep (?) prosections we had to know and that were on our practicals. We also had the fresh tissues to worry about too, although I honestly am not remembering when those came into play or what we were dissecting for.

We have other species/fresh tissue on practicals for certain units but not all of them, and it's usually only one question for those on something they emphasized greatly. Like for camelid GI, you had to be able to ID compartment 3 and the compartments were the only thing they talked to us about lol so it wasn't hard to deduce what you needed to know.

The way they used to do it is that group 1 would get a horse, group 2 (which was directly across from group 1) would get a cow. At the end of every week, group 1 and 2 (or 2/3, 4/5, etc) would ideally have finished their dissections and would walk the other group through that week's structures. The downside is that if you wanted to come in on a night/weekend and self study, you'd have to know what group was actually done with their dissection/did the best job and haul that cadaver out of the cooler.

Lol we didn't do this and this sounds like it would have been helpful. On the weekend I just looked at the large animal prosections and it worked well for me.

I was not/am not an equine person, but I did do this year's interviews with the head clinician of Midwest equine and got to hear her give her spiel 20 times in a row lol. it sounds like they've increased their equine offerings since I've graduated (and I do think UofI still had a lot of equine stuff then); Midwest equine was just becoming a thing during my fourth year. Honestly equine anything gave probably the most hands-on experience during fourth year, aside from FARMS.

They have increased equine and large animal caseload significantly! It has to do with accreditation standards. They hired a new instructor a few years ago who brought like 200 clients to the university. I think this is also why they brought Midwest to the VTH so they could increase their equine caseload but I don't know for certain. Either way, it's working. We also have the farrier services embedded in the curriculum now too which is super cool!

 

[supershorty]

This should have no real bearing on your decision, I'm just curious how they are doing this while preventing cheating/'open-book' exams. UofI's exams were technically online too, but you had to sit in the room with everyone while taking them at the specific time the exam was available. And could not access the exam unless you were on school wifi or whatever.

They use some sort of proctor software, I think. They started doing the online things more after my class graduated/after I was past the point in the curriculum where I had to take exams, but I think I remember @potentialsheltervet talking about some sort of proctoring software.

 

[_rae_]

They use some sort of proctor software, I think. They started doing the online things more after my class graduated/after I was past the point in the curriculum where I had to take exams, but I think I remember @potentialsheltervet talking about some sort of proctoring software.

We’ve only had one class use a proctor software….

 

[pp9]

We’ve only had one class use a proctor software….

wait so do you literally just take an exam at home then? with no proctoring software? Sorry to derail this thread but now I'm invested considering how many schools have had major cheating allegations happen

 

[_rae_]

wait so do you literally just take an exam at home then? with no proctoring software? Sorry to derail this thread but now I'm invested considering how many schools have had major cheating allegations happen

Yes. A good majority of my exams had a 3-5 day window to take them. At home. As first years we got “cheat sheets” which were theoretically a single side of an 8.5x11” sheet but most of us used good notes or notability so the zoom was insane on that. Exams were closed book and honor code, though a handful of classes have open note exams.

Technically speaking canvas can track how long you spend on a question, if you click to a new tab or window, how many times you select a question, etc, but it wasn’t a lockdown browser. Our Large Animal Medicine I course used a true lockdown browser. Wouldn’t stop someone from having their notes pulled up on a separate device though.

 

[_rae_]

I truly believe that a good majority of my classmates do not use notes for our exams. The rate at which people are being like "dang that was hard I got like a 72" is too high. However I do also see that it is quite possible. We're moving toward having shorter exam windows, in person (still online, but in a room with at least one professor).

 

[pp9]

As first years we got “cheat sheets” which were theoretically a single side of an 8.5x11” sheet but most of us used good notes or notability so the zoom was insane on that.

But wait, it's almost like the school knows you'll just be looking up **** in practice anyways, so as long as you are decently prepped and write down the concepts you have trouble with, they know you'll be fine!

 

[_rae_]

But wait, it's almost like the school knows you'll just be looking up **** in practice anyways, so as long as you are decently prepped and write down the concepts you have trouble with, they know you'll be fine!

As far as I know our NAVLE rates haven’t really dipped either!

 

[battie]

Well hell. I wouldn't have failed first year if this had been a thing 🙄

 

[_rae_]

Well hell. I wouldn't have failed first year if this had been a thing 🙄

Anatomy practicals were in person, handwritten, and timed! We also had applied anatomy (like clinical applications?) and radiographic anatomy that were online with no cheat sheets. That cheat sheet saved my ass from completely failing phys though.

 

[battie]

Anatomy practicals were in person, handwritten, and timed! We also had applied anatomy (like clinical applications?) and radiographic anatomy that were online. That cheat sheet saved my ass from completely failing phys though.

We had a lab version and a written version of the exam since Illinois combined everything together. The lab version went okay most of the time. 😅

To be fair, I'm not entirely opposed to this. My fourth tab i open when I get to work is VIN and I look things up all the time. Just a little salty 🤣

 

[_rae_]

We had a lab version and a written version of the exam since Illinois combined everything together. The lab version went okay most of the time. 😅

To be fair, I'm not entirely opposed to this. My fourth tab i open when I get to work is VIN and I look things up all the time. Just a little salty 🤣

That’s kind of been how I look at? We’ve made enough advancements that unless you are a genius with a photographic memory you cannot physically remember everything off the top of your head. I find it more practical to learn how to efficiently look up the missing pieces of info. I’ve definitely been like “wow I feel underprepared for NAVLE” but a) like I said previous classes have maintained a pass rate >90% and b) it’s second year, no **** I feel underprepared 😂

 

[battie]

That’s kind of been how I look at? We’ve made enough advancements that unless you are a genius with a photographic memory you cannot physically remember everything off the top of your head. I find it more practical to learn how to efficiently look up the missing pieces of info. I’ve definitely been like “wow I feel underprepared for NAVLE” but a) like I said previous classes have maintained a pass rate >90% and b) it’s second year, no **** I feel underprepared 😂

Medical school of any type should be teaching you how to doctor, not how to memorize. And doctoring means finding the answer 🧡

 

[indysadventures]

Just a few notes on UMN’s LA anatomy - they actually really do a phenomenal job and are very responsive to feedback. I know some of @_rae_ ’s year had said they wanted more cadavers, and so we do have more this semester. we have groups of ~6 and rotate between horses, cows, and sheep. As a SA person I really enjoyed SA anatomy more than I expected, and while LA is more of a grind for me, I love the professor and I’m learning a lot.

Also, as Rae and Shorty have said, we actually do have a clinical skills lab that we have access to 24/7 and we have students who get trained to be skills helpers and they can even check out cadavers if need be. We also have several community medicine clubs that are pretty prominent and give you regular opportunities to practice clinical and soft skills - though obviously these are out of class and heavily lean towards small animal medicine.

ETA: A lot of my classmates are very active at Piper (our equine hospital), and it’s really what you make it. There’s opportunity for mentorship in basically anything you want, you just need to be willing to ask. 🙂 If you do choose UMN, don’t be afraid to reach out to ASA early and ask to be connected with faculty/departments you might want to work with! I did that and they were very helpful. If you have a niche interest, it can help (at least it did for me) to have that to fall back to during some of the slogs and stress of first year.

 

[indysadventures]

I truly believe that a good majority of my classmates do not use notes for our exams. The rate at which people are being like "dang that was hard I got like a 72" is too high. However I do also see that it is quite possible. We're moving toward having shorter exam windows, in person (still online, but in a room with at least one professor).

Second this. I can’t speak for everyone obviously but I think most people know how lucky we are to have the trust and don’t mess around.