VA hospital Pros and Cons

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sujalneuro

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I plan to interview in nearby VA hospitals. What are Pros and Cons about working at VA hospitals. I prefer acute setting over outpatient.

What should I ask or look out for while interviewing
How good are VA benefits and is that worth it
Salary range ( Saw online around 270K ) wanted to confirm

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My goodness, that original thread is over 2 years old! Paid parental leave wasn't even a thing then. Time for some new talk about the VA. So you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA. But there are lots of similarities. First, the benefits. The VA has world class benefits. You're going to have a hard time beating them. That said, for physicians in specific, unlike pretty much everyone else, benefits are a relatively small portion of your overall income. Still, it's nice to have 55 days of paid leave per year (GME, sick, vacation, holidays). As mentioned, you do get 3 months of paid parental leave on top of your regular leave. Beyond that, you get a pension and 401k like vehicle. Pensions are quite rare today, as I'm sure you're aware. Your pension is 1% of your top 3 average salary for every year worked, jumping to 1.1% at 20 years. The 401k like thing is called the TSP. It has the lowest costs any such vehicle in the country, blows all private 401k managers like Fidelity out of the water. You put in about $20k a year and the VA matches about $10k. Health, vision and dental are all covered about 75% of costs by the VA and there is every sort of program you could imagine. The VA also has a life insurance. There's a lot of debate about how good that is. There's no short term disability (that is what your leave is for), but there is excellent long term disability. Salaries are set at the community average and reviewed/increased every three years to continue to match the community average. They are not negotiable, but often pretty reasonable considering the workload. I would say the national average starting salary (not including benefits) is going to be around $250k, but that is highly variable with the local community. I could see it going all the way up to starting at $280k or higher in an expensive area. Again, it's tied to the community average.
What you're going to want to negotiate and investigate is the workload. How many weeks of call do you get a year on average? How many R&R days (even more days off) do you get for each call week worked? How many other physicians are assigned to acute care? This will determine how easy or challenging it is to use all of those leave days. Is there a flexible work schedule, like 4-10's or even 3-12's? Can you telework at all? How many patients do you see on average? What's the average length of stay? Is there a dom or easy housing resources for homeless veterans in the area? Do you have residents? Medical students? The VA can be an excellent place to be "academic" without taking the full academic paycut. What do the social workers do? What don't they do? The VA has full independent practice authority for NPs, so you don't have to worry about any of the supervision stuff there. Any other specific questions about the VA? I'd like to post answers here instead of a DM for future readers. We should at least have one of these threads every 3 years. 🙂
 
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Off the top of my head, advantages:
-Very steady and reliable paycheck, no losing income for no-shows etc.
-Very solid leave package; typically 26 days annual leave, 13 sick days, and ~11 holidays
-Good benefits, described above
-The workloads tend to be reasonable
-Good colleagues at least in the systems I've seen
-The vets actually tend to get high quality care in the right systems (PHP, IOP, residential, a range of specialists)
-Generally when you're off you're off. Someone will likely be covering for you
-Often you can get academic appointments and teach, making it semi-academic
-Malpractice coverage is absolutely unparalleled. If you are sued for your VA work you will almost certainly be dropped from the suit and the federal government substituted in. There are rare exceptions to this, such as if you intentionally harm someone.
-No need to worry with the business side of things. Just see patients and cash your paychecks.
-Support systems tend to be good in good systems; for example, if you want a long-acting injection just write the order and there will likely be systems in place to give it.
-Great learning and consultation opportunities, both from colleagues and from services like "ask the expert" where national experts will weigh in on your specific cases.
-Great psychotherapy training through roll-outs if you are interested in that.
-Getting to serve people who otherwise likely could not access mental health care and provide high-quality care without worrying about their ability to pay.
-Getting to serve veterans (you will see some in systems outside of the VA but obviously a lot fewer)
-Once in the VA system you can work in pretty much any setting you can imagine: outpatient, inpatient, residential, specialty clinics, telehealth, etc. etc.
-No non-competes and no real restriction on outside activities as long as there is not a clear conflict of interest. In other works, feel free to start your weekend private practice, forensic practice, consulting role, moonlighting, etc.

Disadvantages:
-The pay tends to be mediocre; private systems often pay meaningfully more (maybe ~50k on average) though likely demand more productivity.
-The bureaucracy can be infuriating. Problems that you identify early on will typically persist for years with no real ability to change them. This will wear away at you, though it depends a bit on your own tolerance for that kind of thing.
-Some staff or, occasionally, colleagues are frankly very bad at their jobs, incompetent, lazy, etc. It is extremely hard to fire them, so you will likely have to just live with it.
-CPRS is actually quite good (the EMR), but the IT systems overall are often very slow and buggy.
-You are paid for your time, so you have to be there. If your afternoon schedule clears, you still need to sit there at work (unlike PP where you can likely just go home). You are also not supposed to take off during the day to run errands etc. Your specific site may care more or less about this.
-The VA dictates what you will do in your job and you take it or leave it. Many policies come down from high up and they often aren't very interested in whether you like it or not.
-The bloat of what is expected seems to grow year after year. For example, documenting suicide risk information for intakes in an intake note, a Columbia suicide risk screening scale, a comprehensive suicide risk evaluation, and a separate suicide safety plan (obviously lots of repetition, and using clumsy templates to scribe it over and over). Again, if you don't like it no one really cares. It just is what it is.
-Some patients can be very entitled, and service connection can complicate the picture (they may fear losing service connected income and benefits if they get better, whether or not this would actually occur)
-If a patient is violent or extremely disruptive, VA still legally has to provide services. That means refusing to care for a veteran entitled to services just isn't going to happen. The VA can choose where and how to deliver the care, but they still have to deliver it. This can lead to nightmare cases such as patients who have stalked and threatened multiple providers continuing to need to be seen.
-The population skews pretty heavily male. There are more female veterans especially from OIF / OEF these days, but you will only be seeing veteran populations.
-There isn't a ton of room for growth. Roles like medical director often give extra responsibility without extra pay (or with a small increase). If you want an administrative/leadership job, that could have more potential for income increase though it would be a lot less clinical.
-To emphasize again, a lot of things will be done the "VA way" which can be clunky, inefficient and even enraging. If you don't like it, it is highly unlikely you will manage to make meaningful change. You need to be able to accept what you cannot change and understand that despite psychiatrists being in-demand, once you sign on with the VA they will really make the final call about what your day to day work looks like.


Overall it's often not a bad job, but you have to weigh out your own personal tolerance for issues like the above and think about what you really want out of work. I would say I recommend VA employment though with some reservations.
 
The above poster mentioned malpractice and I think it's important to emphasize. Working for the VA is different than other salaried positions that might just pay a private company for your malpractice coverage. You literally cannot be sued directly for work performed while you are at the VA. Instead, anyone alleging malpractice must work through the Federal Tort Claims Act and sue the federal government. You are never named in the suit and the federal government must first agree to allow itself to be sued. Malpractice attorneys know all of this and this is why they have very little interest generally in federal suits. This is not to say that malpractice settlements are never reported to the NPDB. It CAN be, but it's much less likely than anywhere else. If the federal government does agree to settle, a board of three specialists are convened to review the care in the case. If they found there was malpractice, then the settlement is reported to the NPDB. If they do not find this, it is not as (unlike pretty much every other setting) you were never named in a suit personally. The latter is the much more likely outcome with most settlements. Similarly, if you are subpoenaed by a state or county organization related to a patient, the federal government steps in on your behalf to decline or otherwise quash the subpoena under the federal supremacy clause. It can save a lot of time. These are both true for all federal jobs, but the VA is by far the largest.
 
The VA is in the process of switching from its old but rugged EHR to Cerberus, a transition that has been very rocky so far but is still grinding forwards very, very slowly.
 
Ha, Cerberus. 🙂 The Cerner transition is anticipated to hit us locally in 2025. Some have already launched and I think some will be after 2025. It's indeed a very, very slow process to switch over to a new EMR in the largest single healthcare organization in the world.
 
It’s a three headed dog from Hell, is why

Edit: just to be clear, it’s actually called Cerner.
 
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My goodness, that original thread is over 2 years old! Paid parental leave wasn't even a thing then. Time for some new talk about the VA. So you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA. But there are lots of similarities. First, the benefits. The VA has world class benefits. You're going to have a hard time beating them. That said, for physicians in specific, unlike pretty much everyone else, benefits are a relatively small portion of your overall income. Still, it's nice to have 55 days of paid leave per year (GME, sick, vacation, holidays). As mentioned, you do get 3 months of paid parental leave on top of your regular leave. Beyond that, you get a pension and 401k like vehicle. Pensions are quite rare today, as I'm sure you're aware. Your pension is 1% of your top 3 average salary for every year worked, jumping to 1.1% at 20 years. The 401k like thing is called the TSP. It has the lowest costs any such vehicle in the country, blows all private 401k managers like Fidelity out of the water. You put in about $20k a year and the VA matches about $10k. Health, vision and dental are all covered about 75% of costs by the VA and there is every sort of program you could imagine. The VA also has a life insurance. There's a lot of debate about how good that is. There's no short term disability (that is what your leave is for), but there is excellent long term disability. Salaries are set at the community average and reviewed/increased every three years to continue to match the community average. They are not negotiable, but often pretty reasonable considering the workload. I would say the national average starting salary (not including benefits) is going to be around $250k, but that is highly variable with the local community. I could see it going all the way up to starting at $280k or higher in an expensive area. Again, it's tied to the community average.
What you're going to want to negotiate and investigate is the workload. How many weeks of call do you get a year on average? How many R&R days (even more days off) do you get for each call week worked? How many other physicians are assigned to acute care? This will determine how easy or challenging it is to use all of those leave days. Is there a flexible work schedule, like 4-10's or even 3-12's? Can you telework at all? How many patients do you see on average? What's the average length of stay? Is there a dom or easy housing resources for homeless veterans in the area? Do you have residents? Medical students? The VA can be an excellent place to be "academic" without taking the full academic paycut. What do the social workers do? What don't they do? The VA has full independent practice authority for NPs, so you don't have to worry about any of the supervision stuff there. Any other specific questions about the VA? I'd like to post answers here instead of a DM for future readers. We should at least have one of these threads every 3 years. 🙂
Some great information here. Although I might add/subtract a few things.

1 The effective number of leave days is lower than 55. 13 days are sick leave and can only be used for illness, family medical, appointments, etc. Also, getting those 5 CME days approved and paid for can be quite a task at my VA.

2 Pensions are indeed rare these days but the pension is not nearly as good a deal as it used to be. The deduction went way up for employees hired after 2013/2014, it used to be virtually free, now it is a 4.4% deduction.

3 The 401k (TSP) will, essentially, match up to 5%, this could be more or less than $10k but for a full-time psychiatrist should be more and you only have to match them to get their max contribution.

4 I didn't even know about the long-term disability, I just looked it up to confirm that we have that. Is there anything that makes you think it is better than private disability insurance? It's certainly cheaper 😆.

5 Salaries are adjusted based on the community but I don't agree that they match the community average, they just try to make sure that that the difference isn't quite large enough to make their existing staff flee to greener pastures.
 
3 The 401k (TSP) will, essentially, match up to 5%, this could be more or less than $10k but for a full-time psychiatrist should be more and you only have to match them to get their max contribution.
I know nothing about being a VA attending, but ALWAYS max your 401k/tsp/403bs unless you have a dire need for money (credit card debt, life/death things). That 20kish being tax deferred is one the few tax benefits higher income W2 earners have access to, do not just stop at the match.
 
The $10k match number was a rough estimate. You cannot put in more than $20,500 into a 401k like vehicle annually. Since I assume every physician will be putting in that amount, that's where I got the $10k government match (about). It's actually just a little closer to $11k. I find it confusing to talk about percentage income matches. That makes sense at lower than max contributions, but if you're maxing our your contribution, you're also maxing out the match (and a little more) regardless of your salary. Concur with the above poster that if you aren't maxing out your own contribution, you're doing this wrong. Sorry, I just love being pedantic about VA benefits. The five CME days should be easy to use. That should be asked at any VA job interview as it MIGHT vary slightly from site to site, but it is a federal benefit and should not be hard to use. The actual payment for CME (as opposed to the days off) is...not one of the big VA benefits. It's $1000. However, with the new LEAF system it should not be hard to get that either. So in terms of disability, yes, it's automatic in that's built into your pension deduction. It pays 60% of your salary for your first year of disability and 40% of your salary for every year thereafter. HOWEVER, that disability has to last at least a year to be eligible for that, hence the kinda gap in short term disability coverage which really should be covered by sick and other types of leave. Physicians can carry over almost 5.5 months of vacation leave per year and unlimited amounts of sick leave. So you can easily get to carrying a year of sick leave after about 10 years. If you don't use sick leave, it applies towards your retirement if you reach the right age/time in service. If you don't use vacation, that is just cashed out at retirement/separation.
 
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If you don't use sick leave, it applies towards your retirement if you reach the right age/time in service.
Would you mind to clarify how the sick time gets paid out in retirement?
 
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Would you mind to clarify how the sick time gets paid out in retirement?

It doesn't get paid out per se, rather, you can sort of use it to "buy time" towards retirement to get there earlier. Been a while since I went over VA benefits stuff, but there's certain stipulations and such.
 
Yeah, it APPLIES to your retirement date for calculating the pension and other benefits.. It's not paid out in cash like vacation time is when you separate.
 
Nice points, I will add that many staff become untouchable working at a VA so hard to get rid of bad apples and you have to keep working with staff and problematic patients as mentioned above.
 
Yes, it can be hard to separate underperforming staff, but it definitely can be done, particularly in severe cases. There is an upside to this, however. It's one of the rare places where physicians have union representation and management can't just change your entire job and expectations without discussing it.
 
The VA is best summed up as a job where you are given about 75% of the workload and 75% of the pay but it still takes 90% of the time to accomplish said workload that it would in the normal world because of slow IT systems or random people who won’t admit their job is their job.

It’s like working in a weird hybrid of a hospital and a DMV.

I will say the patients are cool as **** but I could imagine Psych being a whole different ballgame at the VA so YMMV
 
Ha, Cerberus. 🙂 The Cerner transition is anticipated to hit us locally in 2025. Some have already launched and I think some will be after 2025. It's indeed a very, very slow process to switch over to a new EMR in the largest single healthcare organization in the world.

We rolled out Cerner back in April at my VA 🙂 It crashed on us yesterday for a couple of hours....that was fun.
 
The VA is best summed up as a job where you are given about 75% of the workload and 75% of the pay but it still takes 90% of the time to accomplish said workload that it would in the normal world because of slow IT systems or random people who won’t admit their job is their job.

It’s like working in a weird hybrid of a hospital and a DMV.

I will say the patients are cool as **** but I could imagine Psych being a whole different ballgame at the VA so YMMV
Main stick with psych at the VA is much of the population is trying to obtain service connection, 'everyone has ptsd'. There is genuine pathology there of course as well. Lots of antisocial folks thrown into the mix. The saying went if you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA. Each of them is run very differently depending on the culture/who the chief is.
 
Anyone comparing a VA job vs a private job? It seems VA jobs pay about 250k but with a lot of benefits, especially the 40k tax free loan vs private can make about 350k. Anyone in a similar position trying to weigh the financial piece of it vs other places? Seems like the 250k plus about 100k in benefits matches the 350k in the private practice world
 
The federal benefits are definitely worth more than most, all?, civilian positions but I would re-calculate the value. You are assigning $100,000 over and above benefits that come with a civilian job which I think seems way high. In my opinion the best reasons to consider VA are either former military which adds to their time or those who are 5 years from retirement with a desire to have portable federal health benefits and a small pension in retirement.
 
I'm about to sign with a VA soon.
I don't think that federal benefits outweigh what you can get paid in the private sector. Certainly the VA retirement benefits come out less to what you can get by investing the extra cash from a private gig.
VA average is about 250 + 15k annual bonus. Most of my friends are pulling in 300-325k + 10-20k in retention and other incentives.
VA is 1k in CME, private is ~5k.
As it stands, the VA also maxes out at 280k for psych.
At the VA you have to put in your hours, can't leave early. Friends in the private sector who do inpt are mostly round and go.
The way I see it, the value of the VA is peace of mind. You really don't carry work home when you're done, you know you're always going to get paid even if half your patient no show, little chance of lawsuit, and the workload is relatively light, and it's valuable to be in an integrated system where everyone has a PCP, you can easily order tests etc.....and if you're in my position dedicated position for additions and visa sponsorship.

Will let you know further thoughts a few months after I start.
 
The federal benefits are definitely worth more than most, all?, civilian positions but I would re-calculate the value. You are assigning $100,000 over and above benefits that come with a civilian job which I think seems way high. In my opinion the best reasons to consider VA are either former military which adds to their time or those who are 5 years from retirement with a desire to have portable federal health benefits and a small pension in retirement.
An angle some of my fellow grads did was full time VA in a desirable part of the country + side gigs such as private practice or locums = nice setup
 
An angle some of my fellow grads did was full time VA in a desirable part of the country + side gigs such as private practice or locums = nice setup
Absolutely, I was very surprised but the VA seems extremely permissive of locums work, zero non-competes, in many ways they seem to treat doctors like we all want to be treated (minus the bureaucracy and relatively low salaries).
 
Absolutely, I was very surprised but the VA seems extremely permissive of locums work, zero non-competes, in many ways they seem to treat doctors like we all want to be treated (minus the bureaucracy and relatively low salaries).
Besides that whole Tour of Duty inflexibility. There was many an afternoon I had zero to do and just read or played with my fantasy football team in the VA.
 
Besides that whole Tour of Duty inflexibility. There was many an afternoon I had zero to do and just read or played with my fantasy football team in the VA.
I can see that fitting some people's schedules and not for others. If someone wants to pay me to browse reddit or read I would be pretty a-okay with that. If I lived as a single person in San Diego and wanted to get my surf on before happy hour, then not so much.
 
I can see that fitting some people's schedules and not for others. If someone wants to pay me to browse reddit or read I would be pretty a-okay with that. If I lived as a single person in San Diego and wanted to get my surf on before happy hour, then not so much.

Fair. Having two young kids, I love the flexibility of my private practice to mesh with their schedules. The multiples of increased salary ain't that bad either.
 
I think the tour of duty issue has become a good deal less of an issue by mixing in telework flexibility. It is still different from other practices. The VA definitely does not pay by the patient. Productivity is measured and occasionally talked about, but there is no statutory basis by which it could affect pay (even performance pay isn't based on productivity metrics). Like with all other federal employers, they pay for a set number of hours at set periods of time. That said, you can often get the periods of time moved around, even repeatedly. Inpatient 4-10, 9-80 and and even 3-12+8 QOW schedules aren't impossible. I've never really understood why people felt private practice was more flexible, at least for outpatient. You can generally take off when you want at the VA, including partial days and unlike private practice, there is always guaranteed coverage. I understand how giving 30 days notice for vacation could be annoying, but I would think it would still be best practice to not cancel your private practice patients with less notice. Inpatient, yeah, you can't just leave when you feel like you're done, but sticking around really does build a lot of relationships with nurses and gives you a REALLY good idea about how exactly the personality disordered patients act out. Ideally you should be spending at least part of your VA day with committees and other work that isn't completely clinical, particularly for inpatient providers.
 
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I think the tour of duty issue has become a good deal less of an issue by mixing in telework flexibility. It is still different from other practices. The VA definitely does not pay by the patient. Productivity is measured and occasionally talked about, but there is no statutory basis by which it could affect pay (even performance pay isn't based on productivity metrics). Like with all other federal employers, they pay for a set number of hours at set periods of time. That said, you can often get the periods of time moved around, even repeatedly. Inpatient 4-10, 9-80 and and even 3-12+8 QOW schedules aren't impossible. I've never really understood why people felt private practice was more flexible, at least for outpatient. You can generally take off when you want at the VA, including partial days and unlike private practice, there is always guaranteed coverage. I understand how giving 30 days notice for vacation could be annoying, but I would think it would still be best practice to not cancel your private practice patients with less notice. Inpatient, yeah, you can't just leave when you feel like you're done, but sticking around really does build a lot of relationships with nurses and gives you a REALLY good idea about how exactly the personality disordered patients act out. Ideally you should be spending at least part of your VA day with committees and other work that isn't completely clinical, particularly for inpatient providers.

Highly variable between VAs and units.
 
Highly variable between VAs and units.
Agree. At mine, productivity can affect performance pay. There is no guaranteed coverage here but it is readily available. I have never been denied leave because of coverage. They require 30 days notice for leave but nobody follows that requirement here.
 
Is this a correct way to think about total VA pay when comparing it to other positions that don't have as great of a benefit package but base pay being more:

250k base pay
15k incentive pay
10k sign on
55k loan benefit before tax = 40k tax free
~20k addition due to being off 49 days total for sick time, holidays off and vacation, pension, great medical benefits, 401k, etc

Total value ~ 350k

Rough calculation, open to thoughts about this estimate
 
Is this a correct way to think about total VA pay when comparing it to other positions that don't have as great of a benefit package but base pay being more:

250k base pay
15k incentive pay
10k sign on
55k loan benefit before tax = 40k tax free
~20k addition due to being off 49 days total for sick time, holidays off and vacation, pension, great medical benefits, 401k, etc

Total value ~ 350k

Rough calculation, open to thoughts about this estimate

That is not far off. I would not count the 10k sign on given that it is a one-time thing. Also make sure they will pay that much toward your loan, and find out how. long that benefit will stay in place.

If the loan payment will cover that much and will last, then I think your impression is fairly accurate. You will have a pretty solid total compensation package that the loan package makes competitive with many/most private sector jobs, especially weighing the amount of work needed for the role. That setup looks pretty good to me 🙂
 
Agree with @bartleby re: bonus.
The loan repayment will be the wildcard. Hopefully others will write in about whether that is actually guaranteed and for how long so you can put an accurate dollar value to your salary over x number of years.
 
Why is anyone worried about EDRP not being guaranteed? It's $200k (if you have that much debt), paid in 5 annual chunks with no payback if you leave early. There are occasional concerns about VA employment, but EDRP shouldn't be one of them.
 
Why is anyone worried about EDRP not being guaranteed? It's $200k (if you have that much debt), paid in 5 annual chunks with no payback if you leave early. There are occasional concerns about VA employment, but EDRP shouldn't be one of them.
The issue with EDRP is that it takes a long time for it to get approved.
 
Oh okay, yes, that makes sense. Everything will take a long time with the VA, that is a given. Even the $1k for CME is going to take a long time each year, but it will happen.
 
Oh okay, yes, that makes sense. Everything will take a long time with the VA, that is a given. Even the $1k for CME is going to take a long time each year, but it will happen.

Hopefully soon to be 4K.
 
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