-
CycleTrack and SDN are teaming up to make medical school admissions more transparent and accessible! Read the announcement to learn how we’re supporting the future of CycleTrack’s free application-tracking tools .
Vanderbilt, Emory, or Beth Israel?
Started by path07
Get help with your application
Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.
I really enjoyed my day at BID. The residents I met were really normal, outgoing, and seemed to get along with each other quite well. The faculty were generally nice and sociable. Contrary to what you might expect, there were no indications by residents or faculty that they had any kind of inferiority complex being in the same area as BWH and MGH. Also seems like the new chair is really trying to strike a greater balance between research and clinical service in the dept and has done a lot for improving the infrastructure (they are in the process of moving into a new building sometime in the near future). They are offering a fair amount of $$ for residents to get involved in research if one desired, but they weren't interested in pushing anyone in any particular direction. Dr. Connelly (sp?) seems like a great PD to have in your corner, and he had a good sense of humor, an added bonus. If I could see myself living on the east coast for 4+ years, they would definitely be higher on my ROL.
Didn't interview at Emory or Vandy, so I can't really comment. For me it would probably come down to Boston v. Nashville v. Atlanta as a starting point, with Boston > Nashville > Atlanta.
Didn't interview at Emory or Vandy, so I can't really comment. For me it would probably come down to Boston v. Nashville v. Atlanta as a starting point, with Boston > Nashville > Atlanta.
Emory probably has the best reputation out of those three and has a very good reputation overall. There have been murmurs about some of their big names leaving, but I don't know the accuracy of those rumors (and with Emory's cash, they can afford to hire replacements). All that being said, you should go to the place you liked best. If you liked all three the same, then focus on where you would rather live.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
This is based on one interview day within the last month at Emory and Vanderbilt.
Emory: Good teaching on AP and CP. Good reputation, even at my school in TX. Lots of research opportunities. Many fellowships, but residents always signout with attendings. Nice facilities, too. The people I talked to did not know of any faculty leaving. Would easily put them #1 if Atlanta was a better place for my family. Atlanta seemed a decent city to live in.
Vanderbilt: Long history of strong AP, including long SP hours (only place I interviewed that said they occasionally had trouble with work hour regulations). New (3-5yrs?) PD is a CP guy from WashU and has revamped that side. Actually several relatively new director-types from WashU and JHU making changes. Already good rep in South, should only improve nationally now that CP is coming along. A few nice perks for residents. Overall though, didn't seem as family-friendly as other big names I saw (Emory, Baylor, Duke, UTSW, etc.) Nashville seemed like a really nice place to live, especially with a family, though if not Southern and/or Christian you might get a different opinion.
I definitely know how you feel. I'd like some validation for some of my opinions about programs, too.
Emory: Good teaching on AP and CP. Good reputation, even at my school in TX. Lots of research opportunities. Many fellowships, but residents always signout with attendings. Nice facilities, too. The people I talked to did not know of any faculty leaving. Would easily put them #1 if Atlanta was a better place for my family. Atlanta seemed a decent city to live in.
Vanderbilt: Long history of strong AP, including long SP hours (only place I interviewed that said they occasionally had trouble with work hour regulations). New (3-5yrs?) PD is a CP guy from WashU and has revamped that side. Actually several relatively new director-types from WashU and JHU making changes. Already good rep in South, should only improve nationally now that CP is coming along. A few nice perks for residents. Overall though, didn't seem as family-friendly as other big names I saw (Emory, Baylor, Duke, UTSW, etc.) Nashville seemed like a really nice place to live, especially with a family, though if not Southern and/or Christian you might get a different opinion.
I definitely know how you feel. I'd like some validation for some of my opinions about programs, too.
Thanks for your replies. its great to hear other people's perspectives on some of the places I visited.
I really felt Emory's program was very balanced in AP and CP, I liked the faculty and the residents, the hospital, Atlanta, and they do have plenty of fellowships. On my interview, the residents told me that two of their big name surgical pathologists recently left for promotions at other institutions, but that they viewed this as a positive development, as most thought they were malignant personalities. They are confident that they will find excellent replacements and so far it hasn't affected their day to day education.
I liked Vanderbilt as well for a lot of the same reasons, but they seem to work a lot harder. the residents dont seem very unhappy about it. maybe they are just having such a positive experience on surg path that they don't mind. One thing that bothered me was that they don't incorporate biopsies into their regular surg path rotation, and as a result only see big specimens. They said that the residents have to make time on their own to sit with the surg path fellows to look at biopsies, or get what exposure they can at the VA, peds, St. Thomas and at unknown conference. I'm not sure what to think about that. again, the residents didn't seem too bothered by it, but almost all of the seniors are doing a surg path fellowship at vandy for their 5th yr where they would get that bx experience.
I also liked Duke but that program has been discussed on another thread.
I would appreciate any other input! Thanks!
I really felt Emory's program was very balanced in AP and CP, I liked the faculty and the residents, the hospital, Atlanta, and they do have plenty of fellowships. On my interview, the residents told me that two of their big name surgical pathologists recently left for promotions at other institutions, but that they viewed this as a positive development, as most thought they were malignant personalities. They are confident that they will find excellent replacements and so far it hasn't affected their day to day education.
I liked Vanderbilt as well for a lot of the same reasons, but they seem to work a lot harder. the residents dont seem very unhappy about it. maybe they are just having such a positive experience on surg path that they don't mind. One thing that bothered me was that they don't incorporate biopsies into their regular surg path rotation, and as a result only see big specimens. They said that the residents have to make time on their own to sit with the surg path fellows to look at biopsies, or get what exposure they can at the VA, peds, St. Thomas and at unknown conference. I'm not sure what to think about that. again, the residents didn't seem too bothered by it, but almost all of the seniors are doing a surg path fellowship at vandy for their 5th yr where they would get that bx experience.
I also liked Duke but that program has been discussed on another thread.
I would appreciate any other input! Thanks!
Hmm, I didn't know about that. If true, I find that to be a big drawback. Normal pathology practice doesn't revolve around huge resections. The bread and butter of pathology is biopsies.
The biopsies thing was a red flag to me, but 2-3 people I asked didn't seem concerned. They didn't completely convince me.
Also, sounds like no dermpath except at VA or St Thomas or the private group in Knoxville(?).
Also, sounds like no dermpath except at VA or St Thomas or the private group in Knoxville(?).
That's definitely not true. Vanderbilt residents definitely see derm on surg path rotations at Vanderbilt (and sign it out with dermpath attendings at least once a week). As far as biopsies, I think most do get signed out with surg path fellows/attendings but I can't completely remember. I am not at Vanderbilt currently and yet most residents in my program plan to do a surg path fellowship so in that regard Vanderbilt residents aren't all that different.
Vanderbilt path residents do work hard on surg path but not harder than at other path programs and are definitely not unhappy about it. I think Vanderbilt is a great program and some of the big people are still there and are involved in training residents (ie Dr. Page, Dr. Head). Its also a family friendly program (or at least as much as path residency could be). Feel free to pm me for more questions.
No biospies?! that is insane. It would neccessitate a specific surg path fellowship. I would walk away from that set up. I would say 80%+ of my business is biopsies, in some practices it is 100% even. I would be wary, that is a red flag.
The world on the street from a reliable source is that Emory is having some issues and troubles- It apparently is not the program it used to be-
You're gonna have to give specifics and sources. ROLs are already being submitted.
I was told during my interview that the dermpath attendings had very recently left for private practice, and if I was set on a DP fellowship, this probably wouldn't be the best place to come. However, recent grads have gone on to do DP elsewhere.
Miko, were you a student at Vandy? If so, how long ago? Do you still have contacts within the program?
I do not want to spread false information about any program. Anyone else with recent firsthand knowledge want to confirm/rebut?
hey Miko, long time no talk?! how's lil' miko? where's her (his?) pic?
agree with above, Vandy program i visited was pretty decent. Plus, they have (at least had when i interviewed) this system at the hospital for all employees to prevent them from taking time off to go pickup drycleaning, get car fixed, wait for cable guy, etc. where the hospital literally has people assigned to do just these sorta things. Now i'm not Vandy obv, and don't know all the details, but i do know that many path residents took advantage of it, and would bring dry cleaning/laundry etc TO WORK with them and never have to worry about making time to go take care of chores like that (obv. the cost of the dry cleaning etc is not free, but the service apparently is).
regarding Emory, as i stated in another thread, the program was great, tons of $$ to spend on facilities, equipment, perks like plasma tvs for signout. Plus nearly ALL the residents were super friendly and seemed happy to be there (very much like our own program...)
I interviewed at Vandy and wasn't aware of this either. Are there at least two of you here that can verify the lack of biopsy signout?
If you are seriously concerned about the biopsy signout, I would contact Vanderbilt's PD or path residents directly. Do you really trust anything being said on here?
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I cant imagine a training program where do you dont see biopsies, endometrial currettings, breast cores, prostate needles, skin shaves, punches, etc....that would be too crazy to imagine. What the hell would you all day? Autopsies and plancentas??
I agree - it would be malpractice to attempt to train residents without the use of biopsies. Anybody can sign out resections (to a certain extent) with a pair of eyes, a template, and a staging manual.
B
b&ierstiefel
I find it extremely difficult to believe that residents at any program would not have ample exposure to biopsies. Hopefully, that isn't true about Vandy...one of you applicants...look into this and get back to us. That would be better than perpetuating what could be false info.
And yaah, I agree with you. Furthermore, the majority of the large resection specimens already have a diagnosis based on a previous biopsy. Diagnostically, they're not much of a challenge. Biopsy cases are where it's at.
And yaah, I agree with you. Furthermore, the majority of the large resection specimens already have a diagnosis based on a previous biopsy. Diagnostically, they're not much of a challenge. Biopsy cases are where it's at.
Boy, you guys have taken what path07 and I have reported and run to some pretty extreme conclusions. Remember, Vanderbilt residents do not train solely at Vanderbilt University Hospital. For more details, I'll just post part of some emails I got from current residents. My first question regarded their dermpath exposure and the second was about the biopsies situation. Straight from the horses' mouth:
1. We get very little dermpath at Vandy proper. We have an elective rotation at a hospital here in town, St. Thomas, where we can get a month of dermpath integrated in with clinical derm. Many of us also do away rotations in dermpath. Someone went to Houston, several people have gone to Arkansas, and several have gone to a large practice in Knoxville. This is very much supported by our program.
2. Biopsies vary by service. On our main surg path service, we see skin and endometrial biopsies, and the fellows see GI, breast, cervix, etc. We are encouraged to sit in with the fellows and learn some biopsy from them. At St. Thomas you see all of the biopsies. At the VA you see all the biopsies, which is obviously mostly GI, liver, and skin. In pedi path you see all of the biopsies, which includes all things one can biopsy, just with different pathology.
2. Biopsies vary by service. On our main surg path service, we see skin and endometrial biopsies, and the fellows see GI, breast, cervix, etc. We are encouraged to sit in with the fellows and learn some biopsy from them. At St. Thomas you see all of the biopsies. At the VA you see all the biopsies, which is obviously mostly GI, liver, and skin. In pedi path you see all of the biopsies, which includes all things one can biopsy, just with different pathology.
From a second resident:
The only thing I can add is to confirm your original point #2 which is that we see biopsies everywhere except Vandy and many residents do an elective month as "acting surg path fellow" during their 3rd or 4th year at Vanderbilt to see more biopsies here (in addition to what you see from sitting in with the fellow during your regular surg path rotations).
Hope this clears everything up. Sorry for the confusion.
Good!! I am glad all that got straightened out. I think too many times people on here do not know what they are talking about.
It is true that residents on Surg Path do not sign out biopsies; the fellows do that. I spent four weeks there so I can attest to that fact. Residents sign out their bigs in the morning and spend the rest of the day/evening in the gross room. They do see some derm biopsies however...
Either way, this is weird and I wouldn't want to train there (or at least would be cautious in my evaluation and ask lots of questions) unless the other rotations where you do see lots of biopsies are busy. Take that for what it's worth.
This:
is a personal red flag. You have to be careful about fellow driven programs, and make sure that the resident isn't marginalized at the expense of the fellow. Many programs either don't have fellows, or the fellow works on different things than the resident.
And the fact that if you want to actually see some routine things you have to do "electives" is another red flag. That implies you don't get any real electives, because most of your elective time is spent doing things you don't get enough of during routine training.
Look, I don't know much about this program, and obviously people there know more, but you have to admit it sounds suspicious. I believe it is a good program and there are certainly some great staff there, but there are some red flags.
As a comparison, on our rotations we get all the slides the day before (this week, on GI, I had about 60-70 cases per day, about 80-90% of which are sets of biopsies), then preview and formulate diagnosis, then sign out the next day. The fellow sits in on signout (can preview the cases if they like) or does consults/transfer cases. Resident does all dictating, follow up, etc.
That is dangerous, pure and simple. Resections take no thought process whatsoever because 90%+ come with the biopsy diagnosis.
This a great example of residency programs using trainees as meat processors. Someone with balls should file a complaint with the ABP and ABMS.
B
b&ierstiefel
Ditto...knowing what I know now and having completed a good chunk of my residency, this would represent a huge major red flag for me. Certainly would not want to train at this type of institution.
Dr. Amin (GU pathologist) and Dr. Folpe (soft tissue pathologist), left for promotions. I believe a GU fellow from Hopkins was recently hired, and we still have Dr. Weiss. Other than the loss of those two faculty members, things have not changed very much. I'd be more than happy to clarify any rumors of "issues and troubles."
Anyone comment of which would be better surg path fellowship at Beth Israel versus surg path at Emory?
E
edmacmahon
I agree with Darkside about BIDMC. The residents were really great and the PD was one of the nicest I have met, (PT at UCSF is the nicest!). The chairman kind of rubbed me the wrong way and seemed somewhat dismissive, (others I talked to have commented on this as well). Also the facilities are pretty dumpy, but hey, the fellows look like they get a room that is actually well lit, so rock on!
Emory-seems like there are always rumors about people leaving, but Sharon Weiss is still there anyways. The residents there were really great and outgoing and like to hang out together and seem to be a pretty cohesive unit. I don't know what kind of contact fellows have with the co-PD, but she is AP and treats interviewees like they are naughty kids that got sent to the principal's office. Other interviewees experienced this as well, and one resident told me she keeps it up throughout your residency. The other co-PD is NP and is great and a real advocate for people, going out of his way to set people up with job interviews (according to the current fellows). The facilities are nicer than BIDMC. Emory does not have nearly as much interaction with the CDC as they would have you believe, you really have to 'make it happen' on your own if you want any interaction with them.
Vandy....dunno...didn't go because I heard so much about the work hour violations
I got the impression that Emory is a much better program, but Boston would be much better to live in. I am just applying to residency and chose the program best suited to me in a place I don't want to live over a program I didn't like as much in a place that I loved living in and miss very much....It's a really tough decision (glad I don't have to make it for another 4 years), good luck!
Emory-seems like there are always rumors about people leaving, but Sharon Weiss is still there anyways. The residents there were really great and outgoing and like to hang out together and seem to be a pretty cohesive unit. I don't know what kind of contact fellows have with the co-PD, but she is AP and treats interviewees like they are naughty kids that got sent to the principal's office. Other interviewees experienced this as well, and one resident told me she keeps it up throughout your residency. The other co-PD is NP and is great and a real advocate for people, going out of his way to set people up with job interviews (according to the current fellows). The facilities are nicer than BIDMC. Emory does not have nearly as much interaction with the CDC as they would have you believe, you really have to 'make it happen' on your own if you want any interaction with them.
Vandy....dunno...didn't go because I heard so much about the work hour violations
I got the impression that Emory is a much better program, but Boston would be much better to live in. I am just applying to residency and chose the program best suited to me in a place I don't want to live over a program I didn't like as much in a place that I loved living in and miss very much....It's a really tough decision (glad I don't have to make it for another 4 years), good luck!
Interesting about the biopsies. On my last interview, which was BWH, I was suprised to learn that the residents there never see breast cores unless they do a breast elective. Apparently they all go to fellows. Is this sort of thing common?
I hope not - I haven't heard of any place that does this. To me, that's almost malpractice to force residents to do an elective if they want to get basic training that almost everyone will see.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Even more so if said thing is of significant diagnostic importance.
Being able to Dx Breast CA on a resection specimen is important, but being able to do it on a Bx is critical.
If I was a resident there I would be raising a big stink over this.
I was rather surprised to find out that I was quoted on this forum. My intention in sending a personal reply to the above applicant was to help answer the direct questions he asked. If you have questions or concerns about Vandy, please feel free to contact me directly or to email other residents, the program director, etc. I would hate for anyone to be misled by various interpretations and/or hearsay on a forum such as this. Our program coordinator would be happy to put you in contact with any of us, and her email is [email protected]. Thanks!
B
b&ierstiefel
Stinks have been made as this issue has been a problem from an educational standpoint. This point was raised in one of our quarterly resident feedback sessions last year...but yeah, residents in their first two years don't see a single breast core biopsy. They are more than welcome to correlate their excision/mastectomy slides with the core bx slides...but most folks don't do this. The breast core bx specimens are the only specimens here that the PGY-1 and PGY-2's do not get to see (remember, here all PGY-1's and PGY-2's are in AP).
Residents here will see breast cores though during residency (only a few will not**). "Fellow" is defined quite loosely here. For instance, many AP only residents do one-half or a full year of surg path fellowship during their 3rd year. But what does that entail? Really, it's a "rotating fellowship" because you spend 6-12 weeks doing this, 6-12 weeks doing that, etc. Breast service is one of those "fellowships" as is soft tissue (Fletcher signout), general consults, GU, GI, GYN, Cyto, etc. So you see this as a "fellow" but technically you're just a PGY-3 resident.
So anyways, it is a bit backward that during the first two years of AP, you see slides/specimens from major breast surgeries many of which were done because of a diagnosis rendered on a prior breast core bx. But oh well, nothing's perfect, and either way, you get the training here.
**like me, who currently does not have plans to do a "rotating fellowship", unless something earthshattering happens.
Similar threads
