Vanderbilt Psych in chaos

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medstew

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Maybe no one is interested so I'll make a long story short. New chairman from Harvard came in 8 months ago and has made radical changes to what was once a decent clinical program. It is now totally in chaos. PD is trying her best to put a positive spin on his moves (to save her own hide?), however, it is getting awfully close to total BS. New chairman has so little concern for residents that he didn't even attend the 4th years graduation (they weren't "his" residents).

In a supposed cost cutting move, he has reportedly rolled back faculty salaries by 20%. Faculty who can go anywhere else are looking or gone. Disgruntled is not the word for those who are left. Yes, you will still see a few big names on the faculty roster and may even see them when you interview, but you won't see any of them on any service that you will be on.

Overnight, the mental health center outpatient clinic has been made a "no benzo" clinic. Long standing patients are being told to go somewhere else if they want to get "their benzos". Residents are harassed about benzo users in their case loads despite sound clinical reasons ie legit anxiety disorders, unresponsive to SSRIs, psychotherapy etc. Drug abusers, I understand, but they are an FDA approved treatment. How are you supposed to learn how to appropriately use them with such a blanket policy.

With very little forethought ie apparently overnight, he cancelled a long standing association with a state hospital unit which has been a favorite for years.

Just a few of many impending changes (3rd year VA call going from at home call to in house (Yikes) along with 7 day per week rounding on a subacute service) and lots of vague, grandiose posturing about great we'll be years from now.



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Maybe no one is interested so I'll make a long story short. New chairman from Harvard came in 8 months ago and has made radical changes to what was once a decent clinical program. It is now totally in chaos. PD is trying her best to put a positive spin on his moves (to save her own hide?), however, it is getting awfully close to total BS. New chairman has so little concern for residents that he didn't even attend the 4th years graduation (they weren't "his" residents).

In a supposed cost cutting move, he has reportedly rolled back faculty salaries by 20%. Faculty who can go anywhere else are looking or gone. Disgruntled is not the word for those who are left. Yes, you will still see a few big names on the faculty roster and may even see them when you interview, but you won't see any of them on any service that you will be on.

Overnight, the mental health center outpatient clinic has been made a "no benzo" clinic. Long standing patients are being told to go somewhere else if they want to get "their benzos". Residents are harassed about benzo users in their case loads despite sound clinical reasons ie legit anxiety disorders, unresponsive to SSRIs, psychotherapy etc. Drug abusers, I understand, but they are an FDA approved treatment. How are you supposed to learn how to appropriately use them with such a blanket policy.

With very little forethought ie apparently overnight, he cancelled a long standing association with a state hospital unit which has been a favorite for years.

Just a few of many impending changes (3rd year VA call going from at home call to in house (Yikes) along with 7 day per week rounding on a subacute service) and lots of vague, grandiose posturing about great we'll be years from now.



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😱 I was actually hoping for an interview at Vanderbilt, thinking it looks like a cool program....This doesn't sound good.
 
I just got an interview from Vanderbilt this morning. Interesting timing to see this message...
 
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Does anyone have any thing to add to this or support what medstew wrote? My husband just got a job offer at Vandy (non medicine) and because it had a good reputation I was planning on ranking it extremely highly but this posting kind of scares me...anyone else?
 
Vanderbilt is a top 15 med school, however, it is well known that psychiatry had been rebuilding for the past several years. I interviewed there last year and got the feeling that psychiatry wasn't very well respected by the other specialties. I actually heard a quote from a medicine resident that "Psychiatry is the worst specialty at Vanderbilt". Although I ranked them highly, I matched at another good southeast program. In retrospect, it was for the best. They went like 4 years without a chairman and got spurned by several good applicants. Nobody knows much about the new guy. He was an FMG who did a basic science fellowship at Harvard, then did his residency there and after only a couple of years out of residency, was offered the chairmanship at Vandy. They must have gotten desparate.

A friend who is at Vandy said that the residents are on pins and needles. That there lots of changes. While I hadn't heard the specifics that Medstew pointed out, I know there is a lot of dissension and rumors. Residents are talking about leaving.

Were I to interview now, I would certainly ask a lot of questions. The PD does make everything look rosy on interview day. I'm not sure that she can be trusted. According to my friend, she seems to just do and say whatever makes her look better, ie anything bad she blames on someone else ie the new chair and takes credit for anything positive. .
 
Maybe no one is interested so I'll make a long story short. New chairman from Harvard came in 8 months ago and has made radical changes to what was once a decent clinical program. It is now totally in chaos. PD is trying her best to put a positive spin on his moves (to save her own hide?), however, it is getting awfully close to total BS. New chairman has so little concern for residents that he didn't even attend the 4th years graduation (they weren't "his" residents).

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Residency is stressful enough without having to deal with hospital politics. Sorry you're going through this. How much longer do you have?

The no-benzo clinic is a *****ic idea, and believe it or not, one that is not unique to your institution. It's sort of how Dilaudid is now off formulary on many hospitals in an attempt to discourage the opiate addicts that they can't come in malingering pain to get an admission to the floor for 3 days while they workup fake abdominal pain.

The benzo situation is different, obviously, as it is perhaps the most effective medication class we have. Is your clinic filled with benzo abusers, or is the population primarily lower class polysubstance abusers? I guess every clinic is to some degree...but it does vary. I agree, this isn't an excuse to get rid of benzos entirely. Not by a long shot.

A quick search of no-benzo clinic reveals this somewhat disturbing yet all-too-common post of someone who was at a no-benzo clinic and is now getting it off the streets. I suggest no one respond to that post. God forbid you get dragged into that mess.

Does your clinic prescribe opiate pain meds? Ambien or other benzo derivatives?

It seems like, in my limited experience, that program directors or other influential people like this, who appear out of control either calm down after stern warnings from hospital administration, or leave quite quickly.
 
:scared: I think I'm going to withdraw my application!!!!
 
Does anyone have any thing to add to this or support what medstew wrote? My husband just got a job offer at Vandy (non medicine) and because it had a good reputation I was planning on ranking it extremely highly but this posting kind of scares me...anyone else?

Psych2B1: I'm not saying that you shouldn't come here. In fact, if you have a significant other who has a strong reason to come, that might be good enough reason. Vanderbilt has a good name, in research, transplants, basic science. It is just that there problems in the psychiatry dept at this time. I was just trying to let others know that it is not as great as the PD tries to portray.

However, unless I had another good reason to come here, I would go somewhere else. I am a third year student who is planning on going into psychiatry. I had hoped to do my residency here, but if things aren't any different next year, I won't even apply here. However I'm single with no ties to Nashville, other than I have lived here for four years of med school. Last year several Vandy students went into psych here and they are not happy about the changes/chairman or PD.
 
I certainly wouldn't go to a place where you know up front that there are significant problems. Believe me, even in a stable program where everything is ok, there will be tremendous stressors as a resident. Once you match somewhere, you are pretty much stuck. Sure, you can transfer, but you wind up with very little choice. There are very few slots open in the other years. Most people who think about transferring just wind up finishing out wherever they start so as to avoid the hassle of obtaining another residency slot.

I interviewed there last year and had funny feelings about the place. I was told they took forever to get a new chair and at a place like Vanderbilt, you would think they could fill that spot easily with a big name. Private schools often have significant financial difficulties. It is hard to know what is going on.
 
It is my experience as a current psych resident that one should NEVER EVER withdraw an application because of something you read on this site, or hear from any one or even two people. So much stuff is one person's thoughts on an issue, or things heard thru a grapevine. I almost withdrew my application from my current program b/c of some crap that someone told me that was completely wrong. Also at the same interviews, lots of people told me all these completely opposite impressions from mine, and we were sitting in the same room all day. I know nothing about Vanderbilt, but I am hesitant to jump on any bandwagon that involves making really important life choices via a posting. Lots of people have strange motives, or differing views of the world. Go and see for yourself. Malignant programs always reveal themselves.
 
I'm almost positive the financial cut backs and what not go beyond the new chair of psych. If you did some research into the vanderbilt psych. department, you'll see that it hasn't had a really/permanent chair for a really really really long time. The department is in a mess (financially and otherwise). Its the responsibility of the new chair to get things organized again. And as most people would understand, cleaning house can be a difficult process. Its going to take time for things to settle down, but in the long run this is for the best.
 
Its unfortunate, but yes, if someone says something specific about a program, it could be a troller or someone with some type of Cluster B Axis II DO looking to smear a program unfairly.

But on the flipside---medicine (and its the medical community's fault) as a whole does not self regulate well and there are plenty of residency programs that treat their residents like slaves.

I don't know what's going on at the Vanderbilt program. I'd take comments like the one with a grain of salt, but if I was applying there, I'd try to get some under the table word from someone there that could give you an honest commentary.
 
I just got an invite to interview at Vanderbilt today and i'm very unsure about whether to go or not. 😕 It seems like a cool program on their web-site, but I really have enough interviews as it is and don't have the time or money to go to a program that may or may not be any good. Does anyone have any advice on how to find out the real scoop with this place without actually going to the interview?

Thanks.
 
Just to clarify a few things about the state of the psychiatry residency program at Vanderbilt (since I'm a second year resident here)...

1. yes, the program is undergoing a lot of changes now since the introduction of our new chair in January. however, the vast majority of the changes are quite positive. they are being made in response to, not in spite of, suggestions made by existing residents. for example, residents had been asking for an opportunity to do outpatient work earlier in their training. now, during first and second year, residents spend time at the local downtown clinic doing outpatient psychiatry. also, the "big names" on the faculty roster have always been active teachers in the program, and are even more so now that there is more of a focus on education. one of the things that our chair has done has been to bring them out of the lab and into the classroom. these top researchers now give lectures, teach at journal clubs, and run the weekly clinical case conference.

other changes...
the consult/liason service is undergoing several important revisions to make it a more educational and less work-focused rotation. our chair was one of the chief attendings of the consult service at Mass Gen before leaving and loves consult/liason psychiatry. he is planning on starting a fellowship in psychosomatic medicine (C/L) within the next year or two and is taking steps in that direction. starting in July, we will have a CL chief resident position..something we have not had in the past. this should add to the teaching on the service, something i personally believe is a good thing. CL psychiatry is the interface between medicine and psych and you'll see things on this service that you won't see on any other. the CL service is also the "face of psychiatry" to the rest of the hospital. to a large extent, they shape the way the rest of the hospital views the department. having just come off of CL in October i can say first hand that the rest of the hospital seems to have a good impression of the department. and as the service grows, takes on fellows, etc. so will our reputation among our colleagues.

for years, psychiatry residents rotated at the local state psych hospital. starting in july, we will not be doing that anymore...for several reasons. one is financial. vanderbilt supplied several of the attendings as well as two resident/month, and medical students. we were not compensated nearly enough to make that financially feasible. sending that many resources over there also strained us somewhat on other rotations...the VA rotation has always been a very busy one, for example. those residents will now be added to existing rotations (the CL serivce, the VA, etc.) to more evenly distribute the load. this is a GOOD thing. we will also be accepting more of the patients at VPH (the vandy psych hospital) that would have been sent to the state hospital and treating them in-house. also a GOOD thing.

starting in january, residents will be doing physical exams (with chaperones, of course) on newly admitted patients. this has caused some residents to be nervous, but the fact is that MOST psych programs have residents do physical exams. going into psychiatry is not a way to circumvent ever having to touch a patient again.

however you feel about a "no benzo" clinic, this is the way most mental health providers in the middle tennessee area are going. interestingly, i just had this conversation today with a psych nurse practitioner at one of the local mental health clinics. he told me his clinic had gone "no benzo" several months back (not sure just how long) but that he liked it. i talked two months ago with an attending on one of the inpatient units and he didn't like it. the residents have mixed feelings (some like it, some don't). it's been in effect now at vandy for some months now and things have settled down quite a bit.

2. my own personal experience at vandy has been a very positive one. the residents, staff, and attendings here are, almost without exception, very good to work with. as an intern, my off-serivce rotations were fine and i learned a lot, but i would always look forward to coming back to psych because of both the people and the subject matter. because of the proximity of top researchers, i have always felt that we are taught not just "textbook" psychiatry but also cutting edge psychiatry. i have always felt supported by our program director (who, by the way, is one of the primary reasons most of us chose to come here.) example, sept of last year, my grandmother passed away while i was on a child inpt rotation. i got the call at 8am, was in her office 15min later, she arranged for coverage right away, and i was on the road home within the hour - no questions asked. her job, and (as far as i can tell) genuine wish, is to make the time you spend at vandy a good experience for residents.

3. final points about the program that you should know if you're thinking of applying or have applied...we get an elective month our first year that you can tailor to your interests. i split my month between forensic psych and learning more about developmental disabilities. child psychiatry is my interest, particularly dev dis and autism. vanderbilt works closely with the Kennedy Center, an internationally acclaimed research insitution for developmental disabilities. i spent three days/week learning from clinicians and researchers there. spending time with those guys was one of the highlights of my residency. also, our new chair is a researcher as well as a clinician and is trying to foster more interest in, and more of a focus on, research. if this is something you're interested in, you would get a great deal of support if you chose to come here (almost a direct quote from the man himself).

4. we went several years without a permanent chair for one big reason. several years ago, vanderbilt university as a whole adopted what was termed a "Top Ten in Ten" attitude. in other words, they wanted to be one of the top ten hospitals in the country in ten years. so, a LOT of money was spent, faculty were recruited for many departments, buildings have been and are being built, and things have been hectic. the psychiatry department also adopted that philosophy. in that vein, they wanted to attract one of the top names in the field of psychiatry to be their chair. they interviewed several candidates before attracting and recruiting our current chair. (not many departments across the country can claim to be able to attract absolutely any candidate they want on the first try) he's considerably more than "a few years out of residency" but he is young (40s i would guess...i haven't actually walked up to the man and said "hey boss, how old are you?"), energetic, and seems to be excited about his plans for the department.

hope this helps. i don't want to give the impression that every day here is pure sunshine, it's not. but every day isn't sunshine at any residency program anywhere. i do want to give the impression that vanderbilt univeristy is a great place to come learn psychiatry. i have been very happy here, as have most residents to my knowledge. yes, we're undergoing a lot of changes, but most residents are EXCITED about most of the changes. we think they will make us a stronger program and better clinicians.

if you have any questions or concerns, let me know.
 
I have been here about 6 months and have had a great time. The rotations ahev been excellent in terms of a good balance between autonomy and supervision. Scheduling has been very accomodating, I have an interest in in basic science research and have re-arranged my schedule to spend significant amounts of time doing this. The PD is great, very accomodating to your personal interests. As far as the changes, I tgink they are all for the better. As fort he new chairman, as with all shift changes there will be some people who are not happy. I think the general aim of new chairman is to increases the reputation and standing of the department by modifying the residency training, increasing research efforts (including the addition of at least 4 new faculty members since his arrival), increasing colaborations with other departments here at vanderbilt. He is an outstanding researcher in the area of schizophrenia and has published over 60 manuscripts, and is a leader in the field of psychiatric neuroimaging. All my interactions with the PD have been great!!! I think the 1st negative posting was by someone who doesnt like it hear for one reason or another, all the PGY1s think the changes are for the better and that the program will be significantly improve the program.

Please contact me with questions, details, or comments.
S
 
My colleagues have responded and already made excellent points. I will just make a few brief statements:

1) As a former chief resident (and a transfer from another program), I could not be happier with how accomodating this program has been. Any interest I have had, the training director has not only supported, but has actively helped me in pursuing. The education and opportunities are solid. The Vanderbilt name is well respected.

2) Much of Vandy Psych's reputation stems from a past when there was indeed a lack of leadership. You will find that our department is very open and honest about that past and is working hard to change it. There is no cover up here. The important thing is that the individuals in charge are working hard in the face of incredible economic, political, etc... pressures. The negative comments stated about this program failed to take into light the context that many of these changes. Do some research on the state of Tenn Care (our state medicaid program) to open your eyes on the challenges of mental health in Tennessee. No one likes change. It's hard.

3) I find it ironic that in an era of evidence based medicine, people would cancel an interview based upon the comments of a disgruntled resident and other hear-say information on a web blog. Do your research. Have you looked up our chairman's publication record or his grants on the NIH CRISP resource? Have you researched our other faculty members such as Rick Shelton, Steve Holland, Herb Meltzer? Have you talked to current residents about the night float system, elective opportunities, etc?

4) I respect anyone's opinion and certainly agree that it is important to acknowledge a program's deficits. ALL programs have problems. Don't be fooled. I transferred from a big name peds program which was riddled with poor leadership, terrible call schedules, and a screw you mentality towards residents. Vandy psych has been the opposite in my experience. Finally, at the Chief Resident's conference last year through the APA, I had the opportunity to talk to chiefs from programs all over the country. The issues we face at Vanderbilt are no different than those faced at most programs across the country... even the "big dogs."

5) My screen name gives my identity away. Please feel free to contact me through our program coordinator's office if you have questions about our program. C. Samenow, MD, MPH.
 
3) .... Have you researched our other faculty members such as Rick Shelton, Steve Holland, Herb Meltzer?

Not to be a huge nit-pick, but his name is Steve Hollon. But regardless of his name, he's still a big-shot. 😉

And no, I have no affiliation with Vandy.
 
3) I find it ironic that in an era of evidence based medicine, people would cancel an interview based upon the comments of a disgruntled resident and other hear-say information on a web blog.

👍 👍 There were some rumors/negative statements floating around Vandy last year around this time too. I still went to my interview and found many of the myths to be dispelled, and liked what I saw. I matched elsewhere because I found a program that was a better fit for me personally, but IIRC one of the members of the messageboard who expressed some reservations based on last year's rumors still went to his interview and matched there and is happy. So please don't cancel an interview based soley on what you read here. SDN isn't exactly the bastion of fair and balanced 😉
 
I truly appreciate and respect the Vanderbilt residents who responded to the OP. But I never withdrew my application AND already set up an interview for January @ Vandy a few weeks ago. I'm sure one can appreciate being apprehensive about some very specific information regarding a program, even if it is on a forum. It sounded like more then just a disgruntled resident...As Sazi said, residency is probably stressful enough then to end up at a program with internal problems that may or may not come out during an interview. With that said, I totally agree that everything should be taken with a grain of salt on this forum, which is why I had already decided not to pull my app. and will check it out for myself! Again, thanks for all the info!!! I'm looking forward to learning more about the program.
 
First off, I am a Vandy psychiatry resident and I am absolutely AMAZED and DISGUSTED 😱 by this 'chaos' posting. I can't speak for all the residents in my department, but I do feel certain there are many more of us (like crfeze, csamenow, 2010, and myself) who think this is a great place to be than those who disagree. And like a true psychiatrist, I am tempted to perform a little bit of analysis on the "med student" who started this thread, but I'll refrain.

It is true that the department is in a period of change with a new chairman, but this has been a very exciting and positive process so far. As a former med student here as well, I feel I can fairly say that I have been seeing this program improve rapidly before my very eyes. Just a few of the best things about Vandy psych -

1) Our training director is incredibly supportive, and will go to great lengths to meet you where you need to be to become an excellent psychiatrist. She'll advocate for you, listen to your concerns, and do her very best to accomodate any special needs from desire to do research, concurrent interest in another medical field (like OBGYN, medicine, Peds), maternity/paternity leave, family illnesses, or pretty much anything else you can throw at her. 🙄

2) Teaching conferences have become even better since Dr. Heckers' (chairman) arrival. If you have a chance to go to Friday 7AM case conference while you're in town I highly reccomend it. A case is presented and multiple attendings from various practice backgrounds weigh in on management and diagnostic concerns. :idea:

3) With the new chair have followed new researchers, new money, and beginnings of changes to all of the vanderbilt psychiatry services that promise to bring us into the top handful of programs in the country. Areas particularly improving - consults, research, psychosis, and med-psych overlap. 👍

4) I LIKE the people I work with. Admittedly, I think my own class is the coolest 😎 but the last 3 years have all been especially good.

5) This is a program focused on teaching us how to be quality residents, and dedicated to protecting educational time. It is not an accepted attitude to view residents only as cheap labor.

But don't take my word for it. Anyone interested in our program should come and meet people in person and see what the program has to offer.
 
I just interviewed at Vandy not too long ago, and it didn't seem to be in Chaos to me. There are major changes being made, but the residents and faculty seemed to be on board with them and excited about what's going on. I would suggest applicants go and see for themselves if they are concerned. I'm obviously not too concerned, and Vandy wil be very high on my Match List (I would say #1, but I still have a few other programs to check out).
 
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