Vanderbilt v Carle Illinois (w/ Scholarship)

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verylastminutelol

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Hello all,

Having considerable difficulty making a correct decision here... hoping for some expert opinions haha

Top-level: Current career interests lie in competitive specialties (namely derm). Do not intend to venture into academic medicine. Both schools are far from my support system.

Vanderbilt
Pros
- More "prestigious" - would help ease residency matching/help keep doors open should I switch specialty interests late into med school​
- Nashville - I'm originally from a large city and enjoy hiking​
- P/F preclinical (1 year) & clerkships, H/HP/P/F research & AIs & specialty courses during 3rd and 4th year​
Cons
- 240k tuition alone, just over 300k COA expected​
Carle Illinois
Pros
- Full-tuition scholarship, <50k COA expected​
- Eng-based curriculum with UIUC backing... seems neat​
- P/F preclinical, H/P/F clinical​
Cons
- Less "prestigious" - new institution (est 2018)... first graduating class match list should be out this March​
- Colder.? Not entirely a con for me, but I am sure I'm overestimating my cold tolerance​
Thanks in advance for any insight.

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Vanderbilt is not perfect in every way, but as someone who had medical issues in college, they were incredibly supportive and did everything they could to ensure I graduated. I really think almost any other school would have been ok with cashing the tuition checks and letting me drop out after 5 years. Not Vandy. They stood by me.
 
See how the match list turns out. Vandy is nice but I’m not sure if it’s worth the extra 250k. Actually, rent has gone up there, so double check the cost of attendance estimate. Without any aid, it might be more like 400k. Plus interest. You might be interested in other specialities, but surprisingly there haven’t been many derm matches at Vanderbilt. Last year it was 5 and it could be due to different interests of each class, but going back several years, that’s the most they’ve had. Maybe they’ll offer a scholarship if you let them know you have another offer.

Carle is part of the University of Illinois system, so I think they’ll be a solid school. So attending there on full tuition sounds like a good deal to me. This is similar to the people who choose between Kaiser and some top medical schools.
 
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There's a good chance that Vandy will be willing to match or offer you some sort of scholarship if you use your current one as leverage.
I'm not so sure about this. The conventional wisdom is that when schools use money to compete, they tend to do it within their tier. Vandy is T20. Carle is T-Nothing (unranked).

Vandy has a very generous merit scholarship program for the select few it targets. It never hurts to ask, but I would not be shocked if it refused to even consider offering anything in response to a merit scholarship offered by an unranked school. The benefits of a school like Vandy over an unranked school are obvious to most.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not sure I'd spend an extra $250K+ to go to any school over any other, unless that school's name started with "H" and ended with "arvard," but I also don't think that top tier schools are interested in competing with unranked schools for students by throwing money at them. All schools only have so much money to throw around (other than, apparently, NYU 🙂), and if every school responded to scholarship offers made by any other school, most of us would end up with big merit scholarships at the highest ranked school that accepted us. It just doesn't work that way.

There are people willing and able to pay full sticker to go to a T20 school, and the schools can find multiple very attractive candidates fitting that profile to fill each and every seat. Schools like Vandy will throw money at people they target to try to pry them away from Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, etc. OTOH, they are very willing to lose people to places like Carle over money, and just replace them with very excited people off the WL who are willing to pay, no questions asked.

Rather than there being a "good chance" that a T20 school will engage in price competition with an unranked school, I think there is virtually no chance at all. Simply stated, a scholarship from an unranked school does not provide leverage at a T20, although it might provide some at another unranked or low tier school.
 
I'm not so sure about this. The conventional wisdom is that when schools use money to compete, they tend to do it within their tier. Vandy is T20. Carle is T-Nothing (unranked).

Vandy has a very generous merit scholarship program for the select few it targets. It never hurts to ask, but I would not be shocked if it refused to even consider offering anything in response to a merit scholarship offered by an unranked school. The benefits of a school like Vandy over an unranked school are obvious to most.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not sure I'd spend an extra $250K+ to go to any school over any other, unless that school's name started with "H" and ended with "arvard," but I also don't think that top tier schools are interested in competing with unranked schools for students by throwing money at them. All schools only have so much money to throw around (other than, apparently, NYU 🙂), and if every school responded to scholarship offers made by any other school, most of us would end up with big merit scholarships at the highest ranked school that accepted us. It just doesn't work that way.

There are people willing and able to pay full sticker to go to a T20 school, and the schools can find multiple very attractive candidates fitting that profile to fill each and every seat. Schools like Vandy will throw money at people they target to try to pry them away from Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, etc. OTOH, they are very willing to lose people to places like Carle over money, and just replace them with very excited people off the WL who are willing to pay, no questions asked.

Rather than there being a "good chance" that a T20 school will engage in price competition with an unranked school, I think there is virtually no chance at all. Simply stated, a scholarship from an unranked school does not provide leverage at a T20, although it might provide some at another unranked or low tier school.
This is true to an extent, though Vandy is a tad odder. They do not offer merit scholarships past the day of admittance - meaning that if you did not receive a merit scholarship on day 1, you won't receive one later down the line, regardless of other offers.

What's your verdict, though? 🙂
 
Will be helpful to see their match list in March. Probably shouldn't sway your decision but it'll be interesting to see how strongly they match. I'd take the full ride personally. MD is MD at the end of the day and if someone truly wants to match derm, they'll do it from anywhere, IMO but keep in mind you may switch your interests
 
This is true to an extent, though Vandy is a tad odder. They do not offer merit scholarships past the day of admittance - meaning that if you did not receive a merit scholarship on day 1, you won't receive one later down the line, regardless of other offers.

What's your verdict, though? 🙂
I did not know this, but it's not inconsistent with what I said. I'm sure they know what they are doing (i.e., with all their experience, they are probably pretty good at figuring out who is going to be receiving merit scholarship offers from Penn, and who is going to be receiving them from Carle Illinois), so they probably know with a high degree of accuracy who they are going to want to chase with money at the outset.

It would be interesting, though, to be able to test them by being in a position to go back to them after an initial acceptance with no merit scholarship, with a half scholarship offer from WashU, and see if they really say "sorry, have a good time in St. Louis." I know what they say, but I also know the whole point of their merit scholarship program is to avoid losing applicants to schools like that due to money. Do you know if anyone has actually tried that and been turned down?
 
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I'm sure they know what they are doing (i.e., with all their experience, they are probably pretty good at figuring out who is going to be receiving merit scholarship offers from Penn, and who is going to be receiving them from Carle Illinois), so they probably know with a high degree of accuracy who they are going to want to chase with money at the outset.

Lol no, we're not in the MCU no one has this superpower. Lol.
 
I did not know this, but it's not inconsistent with what I said. I'm sure they know what they are doing (i.e., with all their experience, they are probably pretty good at figuring out who is going to be receiving merit scholarship offers from Penn, and who is going to be receiving them from Carle Illinois), so they probably know with a high degree of accuracy who they are going to want to chase with money at the outset.

It would be interesting, though, to be able to test them by being in a position to go back to them after an initial acceptance with no merit scholarship, with a half scholarship offer from WashU, and see if they really say "sorry, have a good time in St. Louis." I know what they say, but I also know the whole point of their merit scholarship program is to avoid losing applicants to schools like that due to money. Do you know if anyone has actually tried that and been turned down?
They were quite clear in their email, stating not that Carle was not up to their caliber (which I've heard other institutions echo), but that they simply do not retroactively offer scholarships to current admits. Your point in the first paragraph is likely spot-on... superstars get the full-tuition scholarships... they've likely mastered the math such that X% take them up on their offer which makes offering more than Y full rides nonsensical. The reality is that they're more than OK without applicants like myself; tough realization as an early admit, but I've come to terms with it.
 
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Will be helpful to see their match list in March. Probably shouldn't sway your decision but it'll be interesting to see how strongly they match. I'd take the full ride personally. MD is MD at the end of the day and if someone truly wants to match derm, they'll do it from anywhere, IMO but keep in mind you may switch your interests
Yep, somewhat banking on them having a respectable match.
 
They were quite clear in their email, stating not that Carle was not up to their caliber (which I've heard other institutions echo), but that they simply do not retroactively offer scholarships to current admits. Your point in the first paragraph is likely spot-on... superstars get the full-tuition scholarships... they've likely mastered the math such that X% take them up on their offer which makes offering more than Y full rides nonsensical. The reality is that they're more than OK without applicants like myself; tough realization as an early admit, but I've come to terms with it.
I hear you. Part of me would resent being put in a position of having to borrow to subsidize peers who are considered more desirable by the school. Another part of me would be thrilled and honored to be one of the select few to be admitted at all.

That said, I'd struggle with just how much reputation and prestige are worth. Lower ranked schools use money to lure students like you to build their ranking, just like UG. Depending on your talent and goals, it is entirely possible that you will be able to get exactly where you want to ultimately end up coming from any med school, with there also being no guarantees that you will actually get there, again no matter how well regarded the school. On the margins, the "better" schools make it easier.

No magic beyond that. Most rock stars would be rock stars no matter they go. TBH, just based on how Carle and Vandy are treating you, it might be a sign that you will be more likely to distinguish yourself at Carle than at Vandy. If true, beyond ranking, have you considered how that might influence your residency prospects?

So, is it worth paying $60K+ per year for the privilege of being allowed to attend Vandy, while others are there for free, while another fully accredited MD granting institution is making the same full tuition offer available to you? Only you can answer that, but being asked to borrow $240K+ when you don't have to, simply because Vandy doesn't consider you to be a superstar while Carle does, would be a tough pill for me to swallow.

I'd probably give the honor of being full pay at Vandy to someone whose parents can easily write a check, or to someone who doesn't have the opportunity you have at Carle. Good luck whatever you decide. Ultimately, whatever you do is certain to work out well for you.
 
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I wouldn't think of it like that. Most of the scholarships come from donations, not from other students' tuition.
Fair enough, but, to me, money is fungible, and donations being used for scholarships could easily be more widely distributed, with each recipient receiving less. At the end of the day, schools have a pool of money to work with that includes both tuition and grants, and it all goes into the same pot from which the school funds its operations.

If I am paying full price and everyone isn't, I am subsidizing those who aren't, regardless of whether their scholarship is need based or merit. I'm not even sure that need based is entirely fair when others who don't have "need" are forced to borrow the full cost of attendance, but I get the rationale behind schools using need based scholarships to attract people from groups (low SES) that are traditionally under represented. The fact remains, however, that we are all going to eventually graduate into well paying jobs, and will all be able to service whatever we have to borrow to attend med school, so no one actually has "need" in the traditional sense, since government loans for the full COA are available to just about everyone, just about everywhere.

I also get schools using money to attract superstars, but, honestly, I would resent subsidizing them if I had a lower cost alternative. YMMV.
 
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Fair enough, but, to me, money is fungible, and donations being used for scholarships could easily be more widely distributed, with each recipient receiving less. At the end of the day, schools have a pool of money to work with that includes both tuition and grants, and it all goes into the same pot from which the school funds its operations.

If I am paying full price and everyone isn't, I am subsidizing those who aren't, regardless of whether their scholarship is need based or merit. I'm not even sure that need based is entirely fair when others who don't have "need" are forced to borrow the full cost of attendance, but I get the rationale behind schools using need based scholarships to attract people from groups (low SES) that are traditionally under represented. The fact remains, however, that we are all going to eventually graduate into well paying jobs, and will all be able to service whatever we have to borrow to attend med school, so no one actually has "need" in the traditional sense, since government loans for the full COA is available to just about everyone, just about everywhere.

I also get schools using money to attract superstars, but, honestly, I would resent subsidizing them if I had a lower cost alternative. YMMV.

Well it's funny that you consider merit-based scholarships unfair when they are based on merit--at least from the school's perspective. Your view of where your tuition dollars go is entirely up to you, but maybe instead of thinking you're subsidizing their tuition, maybe think of it as a cost for being less talented lol

And your point on need based making no sense when others have to borrow full COA makes absolutely no sense. Need based is not based on whether your parents want to pay for your tuition, it's whether they can. If it were the former, no parent would pay for their kid's tuition and the financial aid would be taken from those that actually need it. You think just because someone who has to take full COA loans because their parents don't want to pay for their tuition is on the same financial playing field as someone with a family EFC of 0? The truly in need student has no safety net, sometimes has to help their parents financially, and most likely had a childhood of less privilege. Financial aid is there to level the playing field. Just because they would both have to borrow full COA does not mean it is an even level field, and that we should not try to right the imbalance. But yeah, let's split the financial aid evenly for every student, effectively bringing down tuition for everyone. Rich Henry gets a cheaper education which won't matter because he'll most likely go into ortho because of his parents connections, while he drives off to the sunset in his BMW that daddy bought while waiting for that inheritance. While Edward grew up poor, is working hard to bring his family out of poverty, and is laden in debt after graduation.

I get that you're stressed from application season, but please have some common sense.

One more thing. Your point on the funds being fungible as though it were a pool that the University can spend to do whatever is wrong. Some donors explicitly donate for financial aid to low income students. I'm a donor and I don't want my money to go to some rich kid.
 
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Well it's funny that you consider merit-based scholarships unfair when they are based on merit--at least from the school's perspective. Your view of where your tuition dollars go is entirely up to you, but maybe instead of thinking you're subsidizing their tuition, maybe think of it as a cost for being less talented lol

And your point on need based making no sense when others have to borrow full COA makes absolutely no sense. Need based is not based on whether your parents want to pay for your tuition, it's whether they can. If it were the former, no parent would pay for their kid's tuition and the financial aid would be taken from those that actually need it. You think just because someone who has to take full COA loans because their parents don't want to pay for their tuition is on the same financial playing field as someone with a family EFC of 0? The truly in need student has no safety net, sometimes has to help their parents financially, and most likely had a childhood of less privilege. Financial aid is there to level the playing field. Just because they would both have to borrow full COA does not mean it is an even level field, and that we should not try to right the imbalance. But yeah, let's split the financial aid evenly for every student, effectively bringing down tuition for everyone. Rich Henry gets a cheaper education which won't matter because he'll most likely go into ortho because of his parents connections, while he drives off to the sunset in his BMW that daddy bought while waiting for that inheritance. While Edward grew up poor, is working hard to bring his family out of poverty, and is laden in debt after graduation.

I get that you're stressed from application season, but please have some common sense.

One more thing. Your point on the funds being fungible as though it were a pool that the University can spend to do whatever is wrong. Some donors explicitly donate for financial aid to low income students. I'm a donor and I don't want my money to go to some rich kid.
With all due respect, I did not say merit scholarships were unfair. I merely said I did not necessarily want to subsidize those receiving them while I am not.

As far as need based grants, yes, while I fully understand why schools offer them, I am not sure they are "fair" based on whether parents are able or willing to pay, since we can all service loans, whether we are going into public service or plastic surgery. We are all independent adults.

I get that schools need a way to allocate limited resources, and this is how they choose to do it. If you want to subsidize the education of future physicians who come from modest means, but have the same ability to borrow against future income as a "rich" student whose parents don't want to pay, it is certainly your prerogative to do so. As someone who comes from not so modest means, yet will still be fully financing his education on his own, I'm not as interested in borrowing to subsidize my future classmates as you would apparently have me be.

Moreover, regardless of what you think about how you direct your donations to be spent, money really, really, really is fungible. The money you direct to financial aid for low income students just frees up resources for other priorities, like paying staff.

At the end of the day, every enterprise, including medical schools, has a budget, with a pool of money to draw on, and a set of expenses to pay. Money is money is money. It's fungible, regardless of whether or not you think your money is separate and special. It isn't. It gets deposited into an account and spent along with all their other money, including the money people like me borrow from the government and send to them as tuition and fees.

Your ability to designate an allocation is to motivate you to make the donation. It doesn't increase their budget for need based financial aid. It merely replaces other money that would have been used for that purpose.
 
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@BritainKittenMittens I think most agree on your perspective on financial aid.

To get back to the main point, Vanderbilt probably won’t match or give any scholarship, but if OP would like to see, an e-mail takes just a few minutes and won’t hurt. The side stuff about subsidizing students is unrelated to OP’s needs and doesn’t belong here.
 
Yes the cost of medical school is out of control. It is critical that there is financial aid and donor-backed scholarships for students, especially for those who come from a background where they and their families worried about making rent or getting food on the table. The thought of 400k debt is burdensome mentally as well and making payments during residency without knowledge of the complicated repayment options can make it even worse.
 
Yes the cost of medical school is out of control. It is critical that there is financial aid and donor-backed scholarships for students, especially for those who come from a background where they and their families worried about making rent or getting food on the table. The thought of 400k debt is burdensome mentally as well and making payments during residency without knowledge of the complicated repayment options can make it even worse.
Hello -- I just visited this thread and was met with a huge debate over aid disbursements, so I'll respond here haha

Re KnightDoc's previous point regarding my "subsidizing my peer's education," I can only offer the following perspective (ON THE TOPIC OF MERIT AID, ONLY): I am the type that will not feel too great attending an institution at sticker price (300k+ !!) knowing that over half of my peers will be there for free... the difficulty I have with the argument that my expected, aidless COA is a tax for being less talented is that VUSM merit awardees are offered 75% and 100% tuition scholarships. There is no sliding scale at VUSM. Is it the case that they are admitting both students that deserve 0% and students that deserve 75 or 100%... and that those populations are split 50/50 in the final, matriculating class? If so, one would infer that one-half arrives at VUSM with a significantly worse resume than the other half, which would be shocking IMO.

Idk, just food for thought. And because it bears repeating: the prospect of need-based aid is not at play in the current X vs Y situation, so there is no point in arguing over it, y'all! The only reason this point was created was to glean whether the uneasiness that comes with a 300k debt (especially when only half the class is in the same boat) is a fair tradeoff for the Vanderbilt "name" and resources.

Thanks all for your input 🙂
 
That’s fair for you to use that as one reason to help you make your decision. There are schools where there aren’t merit scholarships or the amounts are much smaller, so the students are paying the full cost of about 300k or more through loans anyway. I don’t think I’d hold it against a school that they gave some students a large scholarship and left others without one. What matters in my opinion is your own financial aid letter, and that leads to the same result anyways for you that Carle seems to be the right choice.
 
That’s fair for you to use that as one reason to help you make your decision. There are schools where there aren’t merit scholarships or the amounts are much smaller, so the students are paying the full cost of about 300k or more through loans anyway. I don’t think I’d hold it against a school that they gave some students a large scholarship and left others without one. What matters in my opinion is your own financial aid letter, and that leads to the same result anyways for you that Carle seems to be the right choice.
Yup. I totally agree.

As annoying as it would be to be one of a minority being forced to pay full price, if OP did not have any better offers, it would be crazy, out of spite, to choose full pay at a place like Carle that did not offer merit scholarships over a place like Vandy that does. I'd hold my nose and choose the best option, if they were all full pay, without regard to what other people are getting.

Under the circumstances, though, it's equally crazy to choose full pay at a T20 over a full scholarship at another US MD program. The resentment over being one of a select few would only add salt to the wound and feed into the decision. On a substantive note, even though everyone with an acceptance at a school like Vandy has a lot to be proud of, the adcom is signaling through its scholarship decision that it does not project OP as being near the top of the class, while Carle does. That alone would make me more excited to go to Carle, and would make me think I have a better chance to thrive as the proverbial bigger fish in the smaller pond. Not to mention starting my career with around $250K less in liabilities to worry about.

The more I think about it, the more clear the decision is. Being admitted to a school like Vandy is an accomplishment that is OP's to keep for a lifetime. I'd give up the seat to someone whose parents can easily write the check, or to someone who does not have a full scholarship opportunity elsewhere. It just does not make sense to borrow an additional $250K for a name like Vandy over another US MD. Maybe Harvard or Stanford, due to unique opportunities they alone present, depending on your goals, but not so much beyond them.
 
vanderbilt without a doubt. if i were as good of an applicant as you, i would never turn down a T20 acceptance
 
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