Vanderbilt vs notre dame for undergrad premed

[deleted802724]

a high school friend of mine asked me which institution she should go to for pre-med. I do not know so much about those institutions... I told her that one is best in tennessee one is best in indiana and that with both being top 15 schools, it's really about what she makes of it

But did anyone have any personal experience with either or particular bias? Any adcom thoughts?

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[deleted781806]

If I remember right, ND's matriculation rate of applicants is something like 80% on average, but depends on your GPA and MCAT obviously (if you pull a >3.7 + >515 at ND you're hitting up into the ~95% acceptance rate bracket). The advising department is also pretty helpful, but also will not BS you if they you do not have a good shot at getting an acceptance when you apply. This leads to some students being "forced" to take a gap year by the pre-med committee as they will refuse to write a committee letter if they think you are going to bring down their application success statistics. You can take this as either a strength or a weakness of the program, depending on how you view it. I've also heard a weird statistic that said ND produces more physicians per capita than any other UG, no idea how true this claim is though haha.

I have no idea how well ND compares with Vandy, but I'd assume they are roughly on equal footing and it really comes down to what you make of it while you are there as a student. If your friend is picking between the two, I'm sure their in good shape. Do remember that ND is a Catholic school with 80+% Catholic students, as that does have a pretty large effect on the student culture (again, could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you view it).

 

[deleted802724]

If I remember right, ND's matriculation rate of applicants is something like 80% on average, but depends on your GPA and MCAT obviously (if you pull a >3.7 + >515 at ND you're hitting up into the ~95% acceptance rate bracket). The advising department is also pretty helpful, but also will not BS you if they you do not have a good shot at getting an acceptance when you apply. This leads to some students being "forced" to take a gap year by the pre-med committee as they will refuse to write a committee letter if they think you are going to bring down their application success statistics. You can take this as either a strength or a weakness of the program, depending on how you view it. I've also heard a weird statistic that said ND produces more physicians per capita than any other UG, no idea how true this claim is though haha.

I have no idea how well ND compares with Vandy, but I'd assume they are roughly on equal footing and it really comes down to what you make of it while you are there as a student. If your friend is picking between the two, I'm sure their in good shape. Do remember that ND is a Catholic school with 80+% Catholic students, as that does have a pretty large effect on the student culture (again, could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you view it).

Thank you for your honest input. I just wanted to point out that I think both are great institutions(I just do not know much about them) but am just curious about what people think such as this!

 

[deleted802724]

Thank you for your honest input. I just wanted to point out that I think both are great institutions(I just do not know much about them) but am just curious about what people think such as this!

Found a statement saying
"every year Notre Dame graduates more eventual physicians than almost any medical school in the United States, and more future physicians than any of the top ten medical schools in the country" from
"Final Report:

University of Notre Dame Ad Hoc Committee on Bioethics and Healthcare Policy"

 

[deleted781806]

Thank you for your honest input.

Another addition to my post would be that there is a "Pre-professional" major that is actually given by ND (with the caveat that the student needs another major as well to graduate), which leads to them having their own advising department with a few assistant deans, including a former physician-turned-priest who generally writes all of the cover letters for the pre-med committee packet. There are plenty of opportunities for clinical and non-clinical experience in the area (two local hospitals, lots of charity work funded by the University). They also have a shadowing program available for Juniors to work closely with Family Practice residents for 4hrs/wk during their spring semester. There's lots of resources for students at ND, but these things are definitely not exclusive to it.

One other problem is that non "pre-med" majors, such as Biology majors, have their own advising groups which leads to conflicting answers to "what should I do?". There have also been some recent tiffs about the pre-med advisors strongly discouraging students from taking our Gross Anatomy course because it's "too hard". While it is a difficult class, it also provides a really strong anatomical foundation for those matriculating, as its put on in partnership with the Indiana University School of Medicine and actually have a prosected cadaver lab component.

So, sometimes there are some mixed messages among ND faculty to their students, but I do think that overall there are a lot of good opportunities to be taken advantage of at ND. I do wish I had my old paperwork that detailed how many students end up applying and matriculating in any given year, if I end up finding it sometime soon I will post about it for everyone's viewing pleasure.

 

[deleted802724]

Another addition to my post would be that there is a "Pre-professional" major that is actually given by ND (with the caveat that the student needs another major as well to graduate), which leads to them having their own advising department with a few assistant deans, including a former physician-turned-priest who generally writes all of the cover letters for the pre-med committee packet. There are plenty of opportunities for clinical and non-clinical experience in the area (two local hospitals, lots of charity work funded by the University). They also have a shadowing program available for Juniors to work closely with Family Practice residents for 4hrs/wk during their spring semester. There's lots of resources for students at ND, but these things are definitely not exclusive to it.

One other problem is that non "pre-med" majors, such as Biology majors, have their own advising groups which leads to conflicting answers to "what should I do?". There have also been some recent tiffs about the pre-med advisors strongly discouraging students from taking our Gross Anatomy course because it's "too hard". While it is a difficult class, it also provides a really strong anatomical foundation for those matriculating, as its put on in partnership with the Indiana University School of Medicine and actually have a prosected cadaver lab component.

So, sometimes there are some mixed messages among ND faculty to their students, but I do think that overall there are a lot of good opportunities to be taken advantage of at ND. I do wish I had my old paperwork that detailed how many students end up applying and matriculating in any given year, if I end up finding it sometime soon I will post about it for everyone's viewing pleasure.

very detailed!!

 

[cactusman]

So, sometimes there are some mixed messages among ND faculty to their students, but I do think that overall there are a lot of good opportunities to be taken advantage of at ND. I do wish I had my old paperwork that detailed how many students end up applying and matriculating in any given year, if I end up finding it sometime soon I will post about it for everyone's viewing pleasure.

@efle's "Most Premedical Universities" doesn't show matriculants, but it provides part of the picture. After adjusting for their med school acceptance rates, they produce about the same amount of physicians per capita. I think it's a reasonable assumption that ND's students have a higher med school acceptance rate simply because the school tries more than Vanderbilt to discourage weak applicants.

Vanderbilt provides unusually detailed statistics about pre-medical admissions success in its Health Professions Annual Report.

 

[deleted781806]

they produce about the same amount of physicians per capita

Not shocked that internal rumors were exaggerated, hence the qualifications in my original post haha. I think that it's mix of the school discouraging low-yield applicants and also significantly higher test scores/GPAs compared to the national applicant average (I really need to go find my data on this). The pre-professional program is also famous/infamous for some GPA padding, as they know the name of the game is to get as close to a 4.0 and who cares if they were cupcake classes (I'm only slightly bitter, can't you tell?).

It's strange that ND doesn't publish a similar annual report, but I did used to have a good set of data on all applicants and future matriculants from ND, I can't seem to find it though at the moment. Like I said before, I'll definitely pop back into this thread if I can get a hold of it again.

 

[cactusman]

It's strange that ND doesn't publish a similar annual report, but I did used to have a good set of data on all applicants and future matriculants from ND, I can't seem to find it though at the moment. Like I said before, I'll definitely pop back into this thread if I can get a hold of it again.

Most schools don't publish a report with that much detail, because it usually makes their acceptance rate seem less impressive. Vanderbilt students have a 67% acceptance rate to MD schools, lower than many of Vandy's peers, so it benefits the school to release that info.

 

[Welshman]

I don't think the school makes the doctor as much as the person does..

Ultimately it's YOU (the student) who has to put in the work to become a doctor no matter where you go to school. Yes, some places have more opportunities than others but I don't think you'll find much of a difference between these top universities.

My advice is to go wherever they would be happiest because that's where they'll do best

 

[deleted802724]

@efle's "Most Premedical Universities" doesn't show matriculants, but it provides part of the picture. After adjusting for their med school acceptance rates, they produce about the same amount of physicians per capita. I think it's a reasonable assumption that ND's students have a higher med school acceptance rate simply because the school tries more than Vanderbilt to discourage weak applicants.

Vanderbilt provides unusually detailed statistics about pre-medical admissions success in its Health Professions Annual Report.

I'm not completely sure if this is just an internal rumor in notre dame's case ... The report was just published in this article
https://provost.nd.edu/assets/60371/bioethics_healthcarereport.pdf which I think is published by Notre dame's office of provost.
Control find "every year Notre Dame graduates more eventual physicians than almost any medical school in the United States, and more future physicians than any of the top ten medical schools in the country" in this article - i have no idea about the validity

 

[efle]

I'm not completely sure if this is just an internal rumor in notre dame's case ... The report was just published in this article
https://provost.nd.edu/assets/60371/bioethics_healthcarereport.pdf which I think is published by Notre dame's office of provost.
Control find "every year Notre Dame graduates more eventual physicians than almost any medical school in the United States, and more future physicians than any of the top ten medical schools in the country" in this article - i have no idea about the validity

More physicians than almost any medical school...? What?

 

[deleted781806]

The report was just published in this article

It seems more of an internal report for the Provost, about the formation of some committee on healthcare policy. I wish it had some actual data/references to back up what it is saying at that point, but since it's just a report circulating within the university it doesn't really need to have that standard of evidence.

Even if it is true, that's not really what someone should base their choice of UG on. As others have said, go where you're going to enjoy it the most and just make sure there isn't a lack of opportunities from the institution. Everyone is roughly on the same footing when you're comparing nearby national rankings (Vandy probably has an edge though because it actually has an associated medical school), it's really up to the student to determine how successful they are going to be and how far they are going to go down the path they set out on.

(Also yeah, "more physicians than most medical schools" is really poorly worded and unclear of what they are talking about haha, again it was just an internal memo, it's not written for publication)

*Edit*: It honestly sounds like they may be phrasing it as "more than the average medical school class size" (i.e. ~150), but that's really not saying anything at all, plenty of UGs can put up numbers like that haha

 

[JB50]

It won't matter for goodness sakes.

 

[Pepe18]

Vandy has a med school, is in a city, and is not cold.

ND is in the middle of nowhere.

That's what I would base my decision on

 

[deleted781806]

ND is in the middle of nowhere.

South Bend isn't that bad! It is pretty cold, but was warmer than home in my case haha. Also, Chicago is nearby which is nice.

 

[Welshman]

Any adcom thoughts?

As for adcom thoughts, there is an AAMC survey that I've seen everywhere where they rated the importance of various factors for student acceptance, undergraduate institution was near the bottom for both private and public medical schools

 

[cactusman]

As for adcom thoughts, there is an AAMC survey that I've seen everywhere where they rated the importance of various factors for student acceptance, undergraduate institution was near the bottom for both private and public medical schools

It used to be higher for private schools, so it's possible they've responded to the survey inaccurately after facing some backlash, but there is no national prestige difference between Vanderbilt and ND.

 

[Pepe18]

It used to be higher for private schools, so it's possible they've responded to the survey inaccurately after facing some backlash, but there is no national prestige difference between Vanderbilt and ND.

I don't buy for a second that undergrad prestige doesn't play a big role in at least getting interviews (you still have to do well no matter where you are from). Having gone through the process as someone from a top school, talking to the state school friends I have now, and from watching the admissions process as a current med student, it's a very different process for top school students. But, yeah, Vandy and ND are on equal footing

 

[Welshman]

Hot off the press!

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

The best choice for your friend is "neither of the above". The admissions standards at Notre Dame are as high as some of the Ivy League schools and I have been told that the curves in ND science classes are brutal. I don't know much about Vanderbilt (a friend's son went there) but why go out of your way and spend that much cash to compete with people who meet Vandy's standards. That's just dumb. Tell your friend that she ought to go to her flag ship state school, work like hell and stay out of trouble. If she has the fire power to get into Notre Dame, she'll crush the competition and get into medical school.

 

[cactusman]

The best choice for your friend is "neither of the above". The admissions standards at Notre Dame are as high as some of the Ivy League schools and I have been told that the curves in ND science classes are brutal. I don't know much about Vanderbilt (a friend's son went there) but why go out of your way and spend that much cash to compete with people who meet Vandy's standards. That's just dumb. Tell your friend that she ought to go to her flag ship state school, work like hell and stay out of trouble. If she has the fire power to get into Notre Dame, she'll crush the competition and get into medical school.

Vanderbilt has some of the most generous financial aid of any school in the nation, including a no-loans policy, and it's entirely possible that Vandy is their least expensive option.

 

[cactusman]

Hot off the press!

Again, though, this table was a significant change from the year before, when private medical schools listed selectivity of UG as "most important." It comes down to how much you trust the second table to be accurate.

Old table + interview anecdotes here.

 

[deleted781806]

I have been told that the curves in ND science classes are brutal

While it might have been like this in the past, I can easily state that the recent curves in sciences classes aren't brutal in the slightest, there were times you could be sitting pretty with an A and getting >75 on the exams. As I mentioned before, this is particularly true of the "pre-med" courses rather than other traditional hard science majors, which wax/wane in difficulty. But the general science requirements everyone needs to take aren't trying to kill you.

what you're getting into for campus life.

Totally forgot to mention the single-sex dorms and curfew rules (Midnight Sun-Thurs, 2am Fri-Sat), those are definitely a big part of the experience and drive a lot of people to live off-campus as upperclassmen, and I don't blame them in the slightest. Although to clarify on the "in-dorm daily masses" point, they exist but almost no one goes to them (with small exception to those that provide free food afterwards), and they're by no means required like some other schools. Also the tuition increases the past few years have been a little outrageous at ND, so do consider that if you will need to take loans out (ND is fairly good at need-based scholarships though). *Edit*: One other thing, if you end up pulling the short straw for residence hall placement you can end up in buildings built 1930s or earlier that don't have A/C and use ol' fashioned radiators for heating. The inverse could also be true, but it is "random" placement.

It's really whatever you make of it, could be great for you personally, could make your life absolutely terrible for four years. Different strokes for different folks.