vanderbilt

[jannakins]

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Hey,
Just another fourth year struggling with the rank list. Anyone with any inside scoop on vandy or carolinas? Thanks!

 

[Hercules]

Hey,
Just another fourth year struggling with the rank list. Anyone with any inside scoop on vandy or carolinas? Thanks!

How inside a scoop do you want? I interviewed at both (as I'm sure you did) and did an away rotation at Vandy.

 

[bcsmith]

Lets see... I did an away rotation at CMC. Amazing program. Great residents / faculty / research. Patient population well diversified and ancillary staff support primo. All the residents were happy. PD was the young / energetic / brilliant. Chariman very research oriented. If you want to do academics, I would say this is certainly one of the biggest names in the southeast if not the country.

However, CMC is notorious for offering few interviews to students who rotated there. Of the 6 that rotated with me I think only 2 were offered interviews. 😕 Unfortunately, I was not one of the 2. So I guess I'm still a bit bitter about that, but all in all the program was great. I suppose if you have so many AOA'ers to choose from, you might look less favorably upon the sub-AOA'ers (or BOB'ers as I like to call myself... wait, that doesn't sound good...).

Ben

 

[joaquin13]

I have seen a few attendings that came out of Carolinas and I was extremely impressed!
Vanderbilt, from what I have heard, is very didactic-heavy. Don't know much else!

 

[dlung]

favorably upon the sub-AOA'ers (or BOB'ers as I like to call myself... wait, that doesn't sound good...).

you're right... kind of disturbing, actually...

BYOB'ers might be better.

 

[la gringa]

carolinas, i hear, interviews 80 ppl. guess they didn't have room for a charlotte native, UNC alum, 240+ on both steps applicant from up the road.

and about not interviewing rotators - heard they did that to a guy from here last year. imho, kind of rude. i've never heard of any other place doing that.

 

[Cristagali]

I'll be a FM Res in Match 2006 (not ER), so take this for what its worth. I was an ER Tech at Vandy before medical school. It's an awesome program, with intellectual firepower, but no arrogant attitude that usually follows. It's 3 years, with two helicopters and a good name that will guarantee you any job in the country. There are 3 interstates in Nashville, so it's blunt trauma heavy, lots of drug addicts, so there penerating trauma experience (ha), and of course lots of med cases. The Ped ER head is very cool as is The head of the whole program. Also check the turnover..those guys have been there forever..there just insn't any turnover. They teach in their sleep and yes they are didactic heavy, but you'll be able to walk into any Academic ER in the country and hit the ground running on graduation. At the time there were no problems with the trauma department, (but that was 5 years ago). I heard the ER is new too. Anyway, good luck, and Nashville is not so bad either. 👍

 

[bemused]

carolinas, i hear, interviews 80 ppl. guess they didn't have room for a charlotte native, UNC alum, 240+ on both steps applicant from up the road.

and about not interviewing rotators - heard they did that to a guy from here last year. imho, kind of rude. i've never heard of any other place doing that.

Great program, but they do have, shall we say, a different way of doing things? Two years ago a Charlotte native, grad from elite Charlotte university AND former Charlotte EMT - with superior grades and steps - was not offered an interview after rotating there. Their loss- he's doing great elsewhere.

 

[EMApplicant]

Great program, but they do have, shall we say, a different way of doing things? Two years ago a Charlotte native, grad from elite Charlotte university AND former Charlotte EMT - with superior grades and steps - was not offered an interview after rotating there. Their loss- he's doing great elsewhere.

Not trying to be a smartass, but...elite charlotte university? 😕 I didn't even know there was a university there at all. Then again, i'm fairly ignorant about that part of the country i guess. No offense intended.

As for the not being offered an interview after rotating issue - and this is just my opinion - however, I don't think I would want an invite if the program did not deem me to be competitive. Would anybody? I imagine that they have pretty much ruled out an applicant if they don't offer the interview. So, while it's obviously a little bump on the old ego, not being invited seems preferable to spending the time and money to travel there, spend a long day interviewing and exchanging pleasantries, only to be passed over in the match. Both cases, it would seem, end up in rejection - the only difference is that one method saved the applicant a fair amount of time and resources, no?

 

[margaritaboy]

Hey,
Just another fourth year struggling with the rank list. Anyone with any inside scoop on vandy or carolinas? Thanks!

I thought both Vandy and Carolinas were excellent programs, and were located in very livable communities. We have an attending from Carolinas here, and she has incredible clinical astuteness and encyclopedic knowledge. I was likewise impressed with both programs for many of the reasons already listed above. Dr. Slovis' lectures at Vandy were pretty amazing, and funny. Dr. Parker Hays at Carolinas was one of the coolest PDs I met on the interview circuit.

If you are torn between those two programs, then I think you've got it made. You'll be happy if you end up at either one, IMHO. You could try to get a feel for the surrounding city/community, and see what fits your personality. Good luck. 🙂

 

[bcsmith]

the only difference is that one method saved the applicant a fair amount of time and resources, no?

...that is, unless you call spending a whole month working your ace off on a visiting elective a "fair amount of time and resources." What I'm asking for isn't a courtesy interview, but a shift in thinking about an applicant as more than just a conglomerate of "objective" test scores and a GPA. IMHO there is no way to know a candidate better than to work with him or her on a visiting elective. If I was rejected because they didn't like what they saw when I rotated, then so be it... but I find it hard to believe that CMC felt the same way about most students who rotated there. Sometimes it's easier I guess to throw the candidates into an Excel spreadsheet, sort by step I scores and draw the line - but I certainly don't think this is the best way of doing things.

and yes... my ego did suffer slightly, but then I just looked in my pants and I felt better heheheh

😳 sorry for the rant guys...

B

 

[Uncle Rico]

I found both programs to be excellent with regard to perceived reputation, teaching, and faculty/resident contentment. Both interview days were relaxed and easy going. While on the surface, each program appears to mirror the other, I found one glaring difference:

The overall "vibe" of Carolina's was far more relaxed, yet confident than Vandy. I almost felt like Vanderbilt/Slovis were pushing too hard the entire day...striving to make the point that there are few programs that rival their own.

I UNDERSTAND that this is just one person's subjective take on two interview days, but I thought that this might be helpful to somebody out there. I've talked to several of you on the trail, and have found that I am not alone in this observation. Take it for what it's worth comrades.

 

[TraumaJunkie]

The overall "vibe" of Carolina's was far more relaxed, yet confident than Vandy. I almost felt like Vanderbilt/Slovis were pushing too hard the entire day...striving to make the point that there are few programs that rival their own.


I interviewed at both programs as well and agree with what you said. I thought the same thing, that the Vandy program was much more in your face about selling itself. I narrowed it down to two possibilities...they (Slovis and faculty) thought the program was mediocre and were trying to sell it to the interviewers or they really thought they had something good going on there and wanted to let the interviewers know it, I decided it was the second. They seem to have a great program.

I did notice that nearly every interviewer tried to pursued me that Nashville wasn't that bad (as bad as it's stereotyped) and definitely thought they were trying to sell the city. As a Northern boy (yes, I have been to Tennessee a few times) I just don't see myself living in Nashville...that's my major deterrent to the program.

 

[Hercules]

I found both programs to be excellent with regard to perceived reputation, teaching, and faculty/resident contentment. Both interview days were relaxed and easy going. While on the surface, each program appears to mirror the other, I found one glaring difference:

First off I agree that they are both excellent programs, and both are in my top 3. That said, I didn't feel that they mirrored each other all that much.

Vandy is a university program based in a strong medical center with a national reputation. Their didactics and teaching are second to none. CMC is a community program. Their EM program is undoubtably one of the strongest in the country, but I don't think it's surrounded by other really strong residencies like Vandy's is.

 

[Cristagali]

I worked in the vandy ER for 3 years as a tech. They are an outstanding program!! The problem is not with the ER, it's with Vandy in general. They have an Inferiority complex. They want to be a Harvard so bad, it makes them sick. They are a top 20 med school, but probably will never be a top 10 or top 3. So they go into overdrive to try and sell themsleves as the Harvard of the South. I wish they would just be content as a great medical school with some good and some great residency programs. So what you experienced in the ER interview is a more systemic problem with Vandy in general. But its a great program and..yes..Nashville is a nice city!!

 

[EMfosho]

how bout some more opinions on Vandy? sorry to be the one bringing up old threads about programs, but i think i'm not the only one on here who wants to benefit from all of our predecessors' knowledge. thanks!! 👍

 

[TysonCook]

Wow, this is a drag up from the past....

All I can say is that they are great programs both, and wait until your do your interviews to do much ranking stuff 🙂 You'll get a "feel" that day and hopefully it'll be a great match for you.

It will be a common question during your interviews X vs Y, so keep an open mind, and maybe it will end up being a no-brainer in the end.

I loved Vandy, had it in my top 3, and Slovis/Wrenn are great. Keep an open mind 🙂

 

[monstadocta]

Any more thoughts, specifically comparing vanderbilt and carolinas?

 

[2008 EM Reviews]

I am curious if any current Vandy resident can comment on moonlighting. Is it allowed? And if so, when can you start and what opportunities are available? Sorry, I can't seem to remember from my interview what was said about this. Thanks.

 

[po' boy]

Moonlighting is allowed. Internal moonlighting as a PGY-2 in Team Triage (easy money, identify and triage sick patients and put in lab/radiology orders for those in the waiting room) and the B-pod (fast track role). External moonlighting as a PGY-3 wherever you want. Have to have TN license and DEA# to moonlight, and cannot violate work hours or miss conferences.

I am curious if any current Vandy resident can comment on moonlighting. Is it allowed? And if so, when can you start and what opportunities are available? Sorry, I can't seem to remember from my interview what was said about this. Thanks.

 

[2008 EM Reviews]

Thank you, PB.

 

[2008 EM Reviews]

While I think it's great that CMC seemed to be very confident about their program...IMHO, I'm afraid it didn't do much to show what sets them apart from other programs. They seemed to rest on their reputation and were resistant to change and innovation - a huge surprise because I had heard they were very well known for research. There was hardly any emphasis on why residents were well sought after or what makes their program unique. As an applicant and a participant of this forum, I find that time and time again attendings and residents say, "You'll get great training wherever you go, and reputation doesn't matter as much as you think it does." As we approach the end of interview season, all the programs seem to run together and CMC did little to set themselves apart (besides rest on their reputation.) Maybe our presentation the day I interviewed was not as good as others, maybe the interviewers were not as friendly that day, but either way I left wondering what made this place so great.

 

[mar8d]

I haven't been to Vandy just yet, but I can comment a little bit about CMC...

Overall seemed to be a solid program with lots of pathology and many opportunities for various areas of EM with particular emphasis on academics/research. I'm a little surprised to hear that they did not invite all the applicants that rotated through there because the PD seemed very friendly and committed to education and the residents were AWESOME - seemed incredibly close-knit and were a lot of fun to hang out with during the pre-interview dinner. Also seemed to have some nice perks that, true to the definition of a perk, are not deal makers or breakers, but are great to have - ie nice facilities (beautiful PICU), pocket PC, wilderness medicine conference intern year...etc.

I'm highly considering this program.

 

[WallowaWanderer]

I'm afraid [CMC] didn't do much to show what sets them apart from other programs. There was hardly any emphasis on why residents were well sought after or what makes their program unique.

It's tough because some programs really sell themselves with slick presentations, while others are more casual. It's easy to let this influence the decision, but I don't know how much that reflects on the actual training. Just because CMC didn't spell it out, doesn't mean that all the resources and things that make the program great aren't there. It's so hard to get to know place in a day, but I think spending time shadowing in the ED helps.

 

[Hawk22]

While I think it's great that CMC seemed to be very confident about their program...IMHO, I'm afraid it didn't do much to show what sets them apart from other programs. They seemed to rest on their reputation and were resistant to change and innovation - a huge surprise because I had heard they were very well known for research. There was hardly any emphasis on why residents were well sought after or what makes their program unique. As an applicant and a participant of this forum, I find that time and time again attendings and residents say, "You'll get great training wherever you go, and reputation doesn't matter as much as you think it does." As we approach the end of interview season, all the programs seem to run together and CMC did little to set themselves apart (besides rest on their reputation.) Maybe our presentation the day I interviewed was not as good as others, maybe the interviewers were not as friendly that day, but either way I left wondering what made this place so great.

Sometimes applicants and programs just don't click or fit well. There are plenty of things that set CMC apart including the clinical training, the faculty, teaching, research, strong ultrasound, EMS, etc (just to name a few) that make the program balanced and a great place to train. It is often hard to get that accross in a single interview day, especially if the applicant doesn't spend much time there.

There were definitely great programs that I didn't like nearly as well as others when I interviewed last year and that is to be expected given that we are all individuals that value things in a program differently. I've read some of your positive reviews of other programs that I thought were horrible when I interviewed, so to each his own. This whole process is about finding where you fit best and the perfect place for one applicant might not be the same for others. That is just normal and why we go through the whole interview process!

As far as your comments on the program being "resistant to change and innovation", I'm not sure what you mean here. CMC has made plenty of changes from resident feedback through the years and our PD and faculty are always open on how the program can be improved.

 

[Hawk22]

I'm a little surprised to hear that they did not invite all the applicants that rotated through there because the PD seemed very friendly and committed to education and the residents were AWESOME - seemed incredibly close-knit and were a lot of fun to hang out with during the pre-interview dinner.

One quick note here. I thought it was odd too that CMC doesn't interview all residents that rotated, but the longer I've been here the more it makes sense to interview people you think you might actually match to the program. If a student rotates and after a month working there doesn't seem to fit (for whatever reason), it seems a waste to fill up a interview spot with someone that to be honest just won't work out as opposed to giving that spot to someone else who's got a better shot at matching there. We interview a smaller number of applicants per match spot than most programs, so this is especially important at CMC. As an applicant, I wouldn't have wanted an interview at a program that knew it was extremely unlikely to take me as well and I would have considered this a waste of my time and their time in the end. Just wanted to clarify this a little because I had some of the same concerns when I rotated here as well before the match and I feel much better about this system now.

Feel free to PM with any further CMC questions! 🙂

 

[WallowaWanderer]

One quick note here. I thought it was odd too that CMC doesn't interview all residents that rotated, but the longer I've been here the more it makes sense to interview people you think you might actually match to the program. If a student rotates and after a month working there doesn't seem to fit (for whatever reason), it seems a waste to fill up a interview spot with someone that to be honest just won't work out as opposed to giving that spot to someone else who's got a better shot at matching there. We interview a smaller number of applicants per match spot than most programs, so this is especially important at CMC. As an applicant, I wouldn't have wanted an interview at a program that knew it was extremely unlikely to take me as well and I would have considered this a waste of my time and their time in the end. Just wanted to clarify this a little because I had some of the same concerns when I rotated here as well before the match and I feel much better about this system now.

Feel free to PM with any further CMC questions! 🙂

My thought is that they shouldn't be rotating students who they wouldn't interview. That's half of the reason you rotate somewhere - because it's one of your top choices and you want to see if you really like it. But if you aren't going to get an interview . . . what does it matter whether you really like it or not? Another reason you're rotating is because you want to gain an extra edge in the selection process. Yeah, you also do a visiting rotation because you want to see how EM is practiced outside your institution and because you want a great education, but you can get this at 100 other places. You only have 1-3 months for these rotations, so I would want them to be at places I actually had a chance at. Just my thoughts.

 

[socmob]

My thought is that they shouldn't be rotating students who they wouldn't interview. That's half of the reason you rotate somewhere - because it's one of your top choices and you want to see if you really like it.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but what Hawk said was that if AFTER the rotation, the program knew they didn't like the applicant (it wasn't working out personality-wise, etc.), what sense does it make to give them an interview? I think this makes perfect sense...I mean, I feel like it's pretty well known that doing an away rotation is a chance for you to evaluate the program AND for the program to evaluate you (for better or for worse). It's a risk. Kudos to CMC for having the balls to let people know they have no chance before they get their hopes up, pay money to travel, turn down other interviews, etc...

 

[Hawk22]

My thought is that they shouldn't be rotating students who they wouldn't interview. That's half of the reason you rotate somewhere - because it's one of your top choices and you want to see if you really like it. But if you aren't going to get an interview . . . what does it matter whether you really like it or not? Another reason you're rotating is because you want to gain an extra edge in the selection process. Yeah, you also do a visiting rotation because you want to see how EM is practiced outside your institution and because you want a great education, but you can get this at 100 other places. You only have 1-3 months for these rotations, so I would want them to be at places I actually had a chance at. Just my thoughts.

I hear what you're saying, but I agree with socmob that an away rotation is as much an opportunity for you to evaluate the program as it is for the program to evaluate you. An away rotation is defintiely a risk, but a risk worth taking in most cases.

To my knowledge, there is no prescreening of applicants to do an away rotation here and no required board scores, letters of recomendations, applications, etc. like some programs require. Even if those things are up to par, some med students just don't work out when here in person. Some just aren't very good, some are good students but have bad attitudes or other personality problems, and some just don't work out for a variety of other reasons. There are tons of reasons why a program might like a student or not like them, but those are very individualized to the situation.

Lets take an extreme example of a rotating student who does a poor job and has a bad attitude throughout the month. Does that student automatically deserve an interview? Are they entitled to that simply because they rotated there? As someone who is applying who didn't rotate here, would you like that person to have a spot (and potentially your spot) when we all know its not going to work out for them? As an interviewee, would you rather have a token interview or would you rather have an honest answer up front before you waste your time, money, and effort to come back for an interview? Wouldn't you want that time to interview at another place or spend that time doing something more beneficial? As a program, if you have a signficant number of similar students, do you want to give away a large percentage of your interview slots to students who are very unlikely to match there after their performance during their month? My answer to all of these is "No," but that's just my opinion. This is an extreme example of course and most rotating students who don't get interviews don't fit this profile at all, but I'm using an extreme to make a point.

In the end, I guess I value honesty above courtesy in a situation where there are limited interview spots and limited time/funds for interviewees throughout the year. Again, just my opinion.

I think it's logical to ask if programs should screen away students before they start the rotation. I guess I look at medical student rotations as more about education and teaching from the point of view of a program, as opposed to a primary opportunity to find future residents (althought both are important). That's definitely a debateable point and I'm not sure there's a "right" answer for all here.

 

[mar8d]

Just a little mini celebration ... end of interview season for me!!! 🙂 Think I finally know my top 3...now which order to put them...

 

[mar8d]

by the way, i totally see the reasoning behind why carolinas did not invite everyone that rotated through. I also don't think that this is unique to Carolinas either...now that I think about it, another applicant told me of some visiting students being told not to apply to his home program because they just wouldn't get an interview. Still it always hurts a little where there is unrequited love.

 

[GlutMax]

Congrat on finishing! Just curious if you did end up interviewing at Vandy, and the feel you got from the program if you did. Just trying to canvas opinions before I make up my rank list.

 

[mar8d]

All my thoughts about Vanderbilt can be summed up in one word...*tssssss*...hotness (and yes the sound effects are warranted.)

A-mazing program. From what I could gleen from the residents and from the lecture we sat in the morning of the interview, the chair of the dept is intimately and energetically involved in education and has surrounded the program with similarly like-minded individuals. Aside from the many opportunities it offers in many areas of EM, it has a great deal of perks - nice facilities, concierge service (for running errands that you might not have time to do as a resident) and the residents are treated very well. According to the chair and PD the EM residents are very well respected and have a partnership with trauma (read: no turf battles). Additionally being situated in Nashville seems to provide a great pt. population despite being a mid-sized city. (Lots of pathology b/c Vandy is the major hosp. in town, and great diversity because of their refugee status and because of the music industry.) Some drawbacks might be that it is a strongly academic institution so if you have no interest in that, it might not fit you. Definitely a great place to train with cool people and abundant resources.👍 My personal opinion as an applicant, so I'm not sure how much *insight* I can give on the program. But I was incredibly impressed.

 

[mar8d]

Also the EMR in the adult ED is fantastic! Probably the best system I've seen on the trail. Currently the peds ED still uses a mix of paper and electronic charting, but will be converting to a fully electronic one like the adult ED soon. It has a great and easy to navigate interface, combining PACS, lab data, orders, old documents and the ED H&P all on one dynamic system. The ED H&P seems to be a good mix of a T system and a good ol' hand written H&P - combining the speed and efficiency of a T sheet and the accuracy and completeness of a long-hand H and P. I've seen similar grease boards, but none where you can access all pt info through the grease board itself and will alert you when important results return (for example the system automatically scans for key words like PNA in rad results and on the grease board a little icon pops up that immediately tells you something's up).



Can you tell?...I love this program.😍 It'll be difficult to finalize my ROL though...there are some really great programs out there, but Vanderbilt is tough to beat.