Cincinnati vs Vanderbilt

[anonyem]

Hi all,

I need some help deciding between these two programs. I find that they have a lot of similarities and differences - i was hoping to create a comparison and flesh out my thoughts on paper and also get all of your opinions on everything I haven't considered. These are certainly going to be #1 and #2 on my list. Please contribute (with all of the x vs y threads, I'm surprised this one hasn't come up before).


Clinical Training
Does vandy do in 3 what cinci does in 4? I don't think so. I think cinci creates leaders, people who are more likely to go on to lead the department they work in. Is there value in this sort of training for those of us who are less sure they want to assume such a position later on in their career? I don't know if the end product is much different clinically.. thoughts?

Program Director support
I don't think there is much difference here. Both are incredible it seems.

Resident Happiness
Same.. both are very happy. Cinci residents seem to work a lot more than Vandy ones despite it being a 4 year program if I did the math right.. Regardless both are super happy.

Flight
Required cinci, optional at vandy. Flying is kindof exciting for me, I think the opportunity for autonomy would be incredible training.

Post residency job competitiveness
Both programs upper crust, not sure I'd have difficulty finding a job.. but it may require an extra year at vandy.

City attractiveness, COL
Nashville is a lot smaller than Cinci, and a lot safer with as much to do. Better weather. COL roughly equivalent. Better climate. I enjoy country music.

Teaching/Didactics
Huge plus in the Vandy column courtesy of Slovis and Wren who are just as incredible as their reputations. I wholeheartedly trust these people to give me top notch training, it seems like they will not retire until a few years after I would be finishing so they'd be there for the whole time. I wonder if the Vandy residency would be as amazing if you took Slovis and Wrenn out. I don't think there is a piece of the Cincinatti jenga puzzle that would make it fall down if you took out a particular part..

Graduated responsibility
Seems like there is much more responsibility at UC, R3 and R4 run their respective areas. At Vandy, R3 knows about the pts on their side, but decisions are made w/ attending and junior covering. R3 doesn't dispo everyone. Senior UC resident will be running 19 patients at once. This is scary and also impressive at the same time to me.

Intensity of program
Similar to the above, UC seems a lot more intense. While I was in Ohio, the tagline was "we work really hard, but we're happy. we are pushed every single shift". In Vandy, there was no such tagline.

Research
UC traditionally more research strong, but I am not sure this is such a huge delta.

Length (3 v 4 years)/Electives
Two months at Vandy, 6 or so at UC. Do I need 6 months of elective time to find my niche? Why isn't two months enough? I don't really know about this. I love the 4th year focus on teaching at UC though, as I want to be involved in resident education. Then again Vandy teaches you how to teach and their entire residency is based on the premise that every faculty member is there because they love teaching. I don't know how to differentiate these two. I would feel more comfortable with a 4th year knowing that I will have done everything that I needed to do, but I also believe my opinion on this can be swayed.

Thoughts on all of this?

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[FSU2013]

Vandy has their chiefs do an extra 4th year like they do in IM. If the 4 year thing is a deal breaker, I think this is a moot point.

 

[anonyem]

Vandy has their chiefs do an extra 4th year like they do in IM. If the 4 year thing is a deal breaker, I think this is a moot point.

Only two spots for this but yes, I agree with you. Between chief year and fellowships, you can do a 4th year at vandy. It is a moot point.

So what's the difference between these programs?

 

[winkleweizen]

personally i think you should decide if you want a 4th year or not and then go from there.

 

[anonyem]

personally i think you should decide if you want a 4th year or not and then go from there.

I think I will end up doing 4 years, let's put it that way.

 

[Iride28]

Honestly, from reading your post, you obviously like Cinci more.... Not sure what the dilemma is here. I also interviewed at Vandy, but not at Cinci. Vandy will be in my top 5 but not top 2. I am pretty much completely opposed to 4 year programs though, so I would probably choose Vandy just based on that.

 

[anonyem]

Honestly, from reading your post, you obviously like Cinci more.... Not sure what the dilemma is here. I also interviewed at Vandy, but not at Cinci. Vandy will be in my top 5 but not top 2. I am pretty much completely opposed to 4 year programs though, so I would probably choose Vandy just based on that.

appreciate it. i go back and forth and really think i'm splitting hairs

 

[WilcoWorld]

Taking a quote from Boardwalk Empire, "Flip a coin, once it's in the air you'll know which one you want."

 

[Arcan57]

Only two spots for this but yes, I agree with you. Between chief year and fellowships, you can do a 4th year at vandy. It is a moot point.

So what's the difference between these programs?

Really? It's possible that things have changed significantly since I interviewed but Cinci and Vandy had two of the most contrasting training philosophies. Vandy has superior didactics but worked significantly less than Cinci. My philosophy on this is well documented in prior posts. That being said they were 1 and 2 on my rank list.

 

[anonyem]

Really? It's possible that things have changed significantly since I interviewed but Cinci and Vandy had two of the most contrasting training philosophies. Vandy has superior didactics but worked significantly less than Cinci. My philosophy on this is well documented in prior posts. That being said they were 1 and 2 on my rank list.

Looks like about 55-60 hours as an intern in the ED, then about 50, 45, 35 for cinci

Vandy: 19 10 hr shifts (48hrs/week) PGY1
PGY2 & 3 38 hrs/week

Yeah, that is a huge difference. I thought it was closer to be honest. What's your philosophy on this?

 

[anonyem]

bump one time

 

[woeiru]

Having interviewed at both this year, I would say what Arcan57 brought up seemed to still be true. Vandy seemed to be really involved in didactics and having their residents take a very interactive role in their learning. We were told that you will be asked questions about pathology and management in front of your peers on a regular basis and asked to defend your decisions. Their learning seemed to be based on a lot of discussion, being okay with being wrong, and very integral involvement with the PD and DC. Cincinnati on the other hand seemed to leave learning to straight lectures by both faculty and residents with supplemental reading. I seem to recall Cincinati having a morning teaching session as well, but I think it is just a case presentation. Both seemed like very strong learning environments, just for very different styles.

Please correct any of that if it is wrong, it's hard to keep it all straight at this point.

Another thing to keep in mind is how long people stay after shift doing charting. It has seemed to range from 30min to 3 hours depending on the program. An extra 2-3 hours on each of those 18 shifts a month will add up quickly.

 

[anonyem]

Another thing to keep in mind is how long people stay after shift doing charting. It has seemed to range from 30min to 3 hours depending on the program. An extra 2-3 hours on each of those 18 shifts a month will add up quickly.

I will say that UC's number I quoted above was actual time in the hospital, whereas Vandy's numbers above was just scheduled time and doesn't include the wrapup that the UC numbers do.

 

[Old_Mil]

The malpractice environment in Ohio isn't particularly good. While it isn't the legal hellhole that Illinois and Pennsylvania are, it is below average. This may not be a make or break decision now, but residency location does have an influence on how easy it is to find and interview for jobs after graduation.

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[Arcan57]

The malpractice environment in Ohio isn't particularly good. While it isn't the legal hellhole that Illinois and Pennsylvania are, it is below average. This may not be a make or break decision now, but residency location does have an influence on how easy it is to find and interview for jobs after graduation.

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From personal experience, finding a job coming out if Cinci is not difficult. It's been around forever and has a huge network of alumni spread throughout the US. Most residents that don't stay on as attendings leave the state.

 

[bad virus]

I rotated at Vandy and interviewed at Cinci. When I was at Vandy, I have to admit that their program prides itself on resident wellness and time for an outside of work life. They are probably one of the best residency programs in the country in terms of quality of resident life in the sense that none of the residents seemed tired, burned out, or even remotely over worked. That does not mean they were less capable than other residents, in fact quite the opposite as they were very impressive. The program just prides it self on its ability to mold its residents into good doctors without draining them.

On the other hand, Cinci residents were some of the strongest I have ever seen and the program prides it self on how bad ass their training is. They might not be burned out, but they work there freaking rears off at that program, and I am sure that kind of a program will churn out residents that aren't afraid of anything.

Also, Cinci's program was dramatically different than any other program I saw on the trail. Literally every year focuses on a different aspect of training that in the end, you would come out a total bad ass having not missed out on almost anything at all.

In summary, If you want a nice life with good training and lots of quality didactics, go to Vandy. If you want to be the Navy Seal of EM, go to Cinci, but expect to work your rear off.