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Vegetarians?

Started by binko
BU Medical Sciences
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I've tried being a vegetarian for a bit, as well as other types of diets. It's not for everyone, including me. I found myself missing meat. However, if it works for you, I'm glad that it does.

On a personal level. I've found, through my experimentation, that I really like being an omnivore. I feel happy, well, and energetic. I have no philosophical problems w/ being an omnivore and haven't really found enough convincing evidence to support a vegetarian diet over a simple, balanced omnivore diet. Indeed, as long as the diet a person is pursing is medically-sound, being well-tolerated, and a conscious choice, I'm okay with it.
 
Another vegetarian here. Not so much for health reasons (over-consumption of red meats is horrible but I think a diet with a few servings of fish and poultry each week is probably just as healthy as what I do) but for my ethical and social conscience. It's not just about eating dead animals (although my rule of thumb is, if it had a mother don't eat it) but also the suffering endured by most animals during their brief lives and more importantly the economic, environmental and public health impact of most mass agricultural meat production in the U.S.

Take one example- corn fed cows. In an effort to make meat production cheaper and more efficient we've turned to the inexpensive, abundant government subsidized corn crops (which cows cannot naturally digsest) over grass, which a cow's body was made to digest. Think about all the fossil fuels required to grow the tons of corn (and alternately how many starving people could be fed by the amount of corn we feed one cow over the course of its 14-16 month life to produce a few meals for humans). Corn feeding has necessitated the use of antibiotics because cows were never intended to digest corn and e.coli and other bacteria dangerous to both the cows and humans who eat them thrive in their bodies when they do. It also produces meat that is higher in saturated fat and cholesterol by almost double. It causes acidosis and suffocation and extreme bloating/discomfort to the animals themselves. It leads to more environmentally toxic waste and gas than with grass fed steer. The list goes on and on.

And that's just one example. The conventional egg industry has a whole other set of similar issues (although I will eat organic, cage-free eggs). I just cannot, as an intelligent, thinking, socially conscious person continue supporting these industries by eating meat simply because meat tastes good to me and I like it. In the ice age, sure, I would've killed animals for food for survival. But it's just a needless, dangerous indulgence today.

Two great books that have really opened the eyes of anyone I know who's read them are The Omnivore's Dilema and The Ethics of What We Eat.
 
rkaz said:
In my case, you do have a point, as I have always been very holistically oriented. I was never into drugs growing up, and still always go see a naturopath before a physician for minor ailments... as I'd like to know how to change my lifestyle, diet, etc before popping synthetic pills.
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(A little off topic I know, but) Did you ever go to your physician and ask about how to deal with [insert issue] with "lifestyle, diet, etc." or was it just a tacit assumption that the MD/DO wouldn't know how to answer that question? As a physician and even as a pediatrician (in residency) I frequently banged my head against the wall in the hopes of getting people to change their and their kids' lifestyle. I routinely talked people out of antibiotics and unnecessary drugs (Rx and OTC). I think in my last year of residency my favorite "prescription" was for 2 TBSP of dark honey at night for simple URI related cough. I know plenty of doctors who tried to get people to think of lifestyle mods or simple reassurance instead of chemicals. Were we that unique?
 
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rkaz said:
In my case, you do have a point, as I have always been very holistically oriented. I was never into drugs growing up, and still always go see a naturopath before a physician for minor ailments... as I'd like to know how to change my lifestyle, diet, etc before popping synthetic pills.
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Heh. Naturopath....
 
J-Rad said:
(A little off topic I know, but) Did you ever go to your physician and ask about how to deal with [insert issue] with "lifestyle, diet, etc." or was it just a tacit assumption that the MD/DO wouldn't know how to answer that question?
I think in my last year of residency my favorite "prescription" was for 2 TBSP of dark honey at night for simple URI related cough. I know plenty of doctors who tried to get people to think of lifestyle mods or simple reassurance instead of chemicals. Were we that unique?
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I'm not a physician, but I can tell you as an LPN I used to have a lot of trouble talking about kid's weight. I think the principle- addressing the patient's lifestyle- is the same.

I did intakes at a clinic I used to work at: you know, take their chief complaint, a brief history, and the usual stats like BP and weight. I used to get in trouble (every month or so) when a parent would complain about me hurting their kids' feelings. The child would be like 13 years-old and near on 200 pounds, and not tall by any means. The parent would ask if "everything was ok" after I took the kids' stats. I would take the laminated BMI chart and point to where their kid was. I did not name call, there was no subjective interpretation on my part, just putting my finger on the number 30 or whatever it was and show him/her that the value was deemed 'obese'. "Well," they would say, "Jimmy is BLANK and so his weight is normal", where 'BLANK' is an excuse they've been giving Jimmy since he was obese. Odds are the mother and father were obese too so they would feel extra protective of not just their overweight child, but mostly over their own destructive practices.

If you tell them to change their lifestyle in any small way, you're insinuating that they've been raising their children incorrectly, and I think there's no bigger insult to a parent then that. At the same time they know deep-down that they're wrong. So there's this inner struggle between the pride of the parents and the welfare for their children. It's a shame, but 9 times out of 10 their pride wins

Then the patients would get mad, and either dismissed my assessment as the incompetent ramblings of a lowly LPN, or say something to the effect of, "how could you be so cruel?" The doctors I worked with had no spines, or lost the will to argue with patients a long time ago, and would give rx instead of talking to them about their root problem: lifestyle. I saw 16 year-old kids on medication for high blood pressure, and I'm betting you've seen that too, right Rad?

I guess the hard thing for a physician to do is effectively confront irrational parents in a way that doesn't offend them. I find that most physicians give up because parents put up quite a fight. This is what really turns me off from peds. At least when you deal with just adults they don't have a kid to use as a shield
 
MossPoh said:
I had a friend (a vegan if it matters) that was riding his bike and struck by a car, in the grand scheme of things...my risks aren't that bad to me.
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Ah yes, the 'I-could-get-struck-by-car' rationale! My grandmother used the same example to qualify her behavior too, like smoking

MossPoh said:
I can say that the personal fulfillment makes it worthwhile, even if it cuts off the last few years of life...which suck anyway.
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This is more honest I think, I respect this. Professional althetes tend to have a lot of quality of life issues later on in life, but as long as you're informed, whatever floats your boat!

Also, the premed in me wants to ask: how the heck do you have bowel movements with that much protein? Going number 2 for you must be like another one hour workout! yikes, don't answer that 🙂
 
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MathTeacher said:
Two great books that have really opened the eyes of anyone I know who's read them are The Omnivore's Dilema and The Ethics of What We Eat.
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The last one you mentioned was what convinced me to be a vegeterian. Great book!
 
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Your reasons sound very much like mine. I stopped eating meat over a year ago and am feeling better than ever, both physically and morally.

I went to get a blood test this week as part of routine physical examination, after which my physician called me, highly concerned about my body's depleted iron stores and low hemoglobin levels. Also, paradoxically, my cholesterol is higher than ever before (195). I am going to have to supplement my diet with iron pills for a few months and see how my body responds. I may have to cut down on cheese and butter to get a handle on cholesterol. I am feeling good, but my doctor doesn't seem to approve of my vegetarianism, saying that it's just a matter of time before I develop serious symptoms.


MathTeacher said:
Another vegetarian here. Not so much for health reasons (over-consumption of red meats is horrible but I think a diet with a few servings of fish and poultry each week is probably just as healthy as what I do) but for my ethical and social conscience. It's not just about eating dead animals (although my rule of thumb is, if it had a mother don't eat it) but also the suffering endured by most animals during their brief lives and more importantly the economic, environmental and public health impact of most mass agricultural meat production in the U.S.

Take one example- corn fed cows. In an effort to make meat production cheaper and more efficient we've turned to the inexpensive, abundant government subsidized corn crops (which cows cannot naturally digsest) over grass, which a cow's body was made to digest. Think about all the fossil fuels required to grow the tons of corn (and alternately how many starving people could be fed by the amount of corn we feed one cow over the course of its 14-16 month life to produce a few meals for humans). Corn feeding has necessitated the use of antibiotics because cows were never intended to digest corn and e.coli and other bacteria dangerous to both the cows and humans who eat them thrive in their bodies when they do. It also produces meat that is higher in saturated fat and cholesterol by almost double. It causes acidosis and suffocation and extreme bloating/discomfort to the animals themselves. It leads to more environmentally toxic waste and gas than with grass fed steer. The list goes on and on.

And that's just one example. The conventional egg industry has a whole other set of similar issues (although I will eat organic, cage-free eggs). I just cannot, as an intelligent, thinking, socially conscious person continue supporting these industries by eating meat simply because meat tastes good to me and I like it. In the ice age, sure, I would've killed animals for food for survival. But it's just a needless, dangerous indulgence today.

Two great books that have really opened the eyes of anyone I know who's read them are The Omnivore's Dilema and The Ethics of What We Eat.
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I eat meat so little that I don't usually feel guilty about not being a full-on vegetarian/vegan. I have to have a taco or a burger every now and then!

I gave up meat for about two months one time, but I didn't feel any different. I felt MUCH better when I stopped drinking soft drinks in 8th grade. I still have an occasional one, but I feel a lot better just drinking milk, water, tea, juice, etc.

And I would try to answer the OP's inquiry, but I honestly don't know any pre-med vegetarians! The only vegetarians I know are in liberal arts disciplines...but I'm a psychology major, so I definitely know more of these people than people who major in the sciences.

However, I always definitely try make sure that I'm eating much more plants/grains/alternative protein sources than meat. Just a personal preference. Also, "The Vegan Lunchbox" cookbook has some great food in it...I have made several things from it that my meat-eating friends love!
 
I recommend Veganomicon to omnivores when they ask what I think is a good cookbook. I haven't tried Vegan Lunchbox. My mom isn't even a vegetarian but she uses recipes from Veganomicon at least weekly.
 
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robynrich said:
I eat meat so little that I don't usually feel guilty about not being a full-on vegetarian/vegan. I have to have a taco or a burger every now and then!

I gave up meat for about two months one time, but I didn't feel any different. I felt MUCH better when I stopped drinking soft drinks in 8th grade. I still have an occasional one, but I feel a lot better just drinking milk, water, tea, juice, etc.

And I would try to answer the OP's inquiry, but I honestly don't know any pre-med vegetarians! The only vegetarians I know are in liberal arts disciplines...but I'm a psychology major, so I definitely know more of these people than people who major in the sciences.

However, I always definitely try make sure that I'm eating much more plants/grains/alternative protein sources than meat. Just a personal preference. Also, "The Vegan Lunchbox" cookbook has some great food in it...I have made several things from it that my meat-eating friends love!
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ah, soft drinks. absolutely the best way to jack your health up while simultaneously ingesting copious amounts of sugar.

did you see that nytimes article that recently came out on how scientists are finally admitting what we all know- sugar DOES affect acne. I'll post the link for anyone that wants it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/health/24real.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=sugar%20acne%20scientists&st=cse
 
also, can someone post up some iron-rich foods that you like/eat/RECOMMEND that are veggie? also im look for more then just 'oh beans are' lol
 
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pstone said:
btw i think vegan is nasty. i cant stand the crap that passes as vegan cheese. NASTY
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Just FYI there's no law saying you have to eat that crap if you're a vegan. The only person I know who likes it is my little cousin who isn't even a vegetarian.
 
That's interesting about the spinach. Is it the freeze-drying or something in the spinach? If the latter, what do they think it is? Does this apply to any other vegan sources of iron?

I'll have to catalogue my diet and figure out where my iron is coming from, but I know I'm getting plenty because I was recently blood-tested for iron-deficiency anemia since my sister had it as a kid, and was given a clean bill of health.

I do take a vegan multivitamin that contains some iron, but I think it only contains about 40% DV and I only take it a few times a week.
 
binko said:
That's interesting about the spinach. Is it the freeze-drying or something in the spinach? If the latter, what do they think it is? Does this apply to any other vegan sources of iron?

I'll have to catalogue my diet and figure out where my iron is coming from, but I know I'm getting plenty because I was recently blood-tested for iron-deficiency anemia since my sister had it as a kid, and was given a clean bill of health.

I do take a vegan multivitamin that contains some iron, but I think it only contains about 40% DV and I only take it a few times a week.
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This gives some insight:

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?pfriendly=1&tname=george&dbid=217

Why not take a multi daily?

This discussion makes me curious about the bioavailability of iron in enriched cereals that sometimes contain "100%."
 
Chocolate Bear said:
FYI bio availability of iron in spinach is 👎

This isn't where I got my info, but here's a quick cite.

http://vivo.cornell.edu/individual/vivo/individual14791
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Plenty of foods have lots of iron pre-fortified in them. I'm looking at the boxes for Cheerios and shredded wheat and they have plenty if you eat a couple of bowls. I also know that instant oatmeal has a decent amount as well. These are just things I have first hand experience with, I'm sure most cereals have iron in them.I'm sure soy milk has it too

Chocolate bear is right about spinach, but one can increase bioavailability by eating citrus fruits, like orange or grapefruit, with certain green iron-rich vegetables. Broccoli 's not bad.
 
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I'm a vegetarian, and I have been one for about a decade now. My choice to go to a DO school has nothing to do with my eating habits. Lol.

I'm a vegetarian because I don't like meat. I also do not like bell peppers...or artificial grape flavored food. It's just a matter of taste.

As for being healthy or not healthy, everyone needs to watch what they eat. A vegan can technically only eat junk food and still be a vegan. Same deal for a meat eater. I just had a physical with a total blood work-up for my school's requirements, and my levels of everything are perfect. I'm not deficient in any vital nutrients or high on anything like cholesterol, etc.

It's about balance.
 
Lol you're all talking about it as if it's a religion. :laugh:

Omnivores, herbivores, carnivores...we're all awesome. Personally, I love meat and can't imagine having a diet without it. However, since I have an extreme aversion to seafood (except some sushi in small doses), I take an Omega-3 supplement (flax seed oil, not fish oil 😀).
 
Actually for me it is something like a religion – part of a whole worldview based on respect for sentient life and for the environment that we share with all living things.
 
binko said:
Actually for me it is something like a religion – part of a whole worldview based on respect for sentient life and for the environment that we share with all living things.
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Me too. It's part of my personal growth and spiritual process as well. 👍

Although many of us vegans come across as self-righteous many of us have no reason to be. I became vegetarian at age 14, and vegan a little over a year ago, and in that time, I have caused much damage to the world around me. Hundreds of chickens, cows, pigs, and turkeys were killed and tortured needlessly simply because I liked the 'taste' of meat. I have seen videos like Meat Your Meat and Earthlings, so I know the process of how the animals are dipped in boiling water and skinned (sometimes alive). I cannot reclaim all the lives of those innocent creatures who were murdered due to my own ignorance and apathy... so that will always weigh on my conscience, and the karma is with me. If I ever got the chance to look those creatures in the eyes and explain to them why my apathy warranted their brutal torture and murder... I would have no justification for myself. It's easy to be apathetic when we don't have to face the consequences of our choices and the destruction we have caused.

For those willing and brave enough to really look into your food choices and the issue of animal abuse, here is a documentary called Earthlings which is free through Google Video. It's hard to watch, but really eye opening on animal abuse issues. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142&ei=FnWtSeGUHqe4qAPtnL30Cw&q=earthlings
 
RySerr21 said:
Tony Gonzalez (pro bowl tight end for the chiefs) is a vegan.
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hm i didnt know that. awesome; as TE's go hes on my personal hall of fame list at the top.. but then again im a chiefs fan (yes i know they suck as of late)
 
Yeah I've heard about the China study.

I wasn't meaning so much for health reasons, I just thought maybe people preferentially interested in a branch of medicine with a holistic philosophy (indeed, one with a philosophy at all) might be more likely to pursue a similar philosophy (or, again, any kind of philosophy) in their personal lifestyles.

The original question was really meant for ethical/environmental vegetarians.
 
maldabrroc777 said:
I'm a vegetarian because I don't like meat. I also do not like bell peppers...or artificial grape flavored food. It's just a matter of taste.
It's about balance.
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👍
That's exactly me, except i do not like artificial orange! Explaining it to people who ask "why are you a vegetarian" is almost impossible. I've been told so many times that meat tastes sooo good, how can I not like it!
 
detroitdo said:
I've been told so many times that meat tastes sooo good, how can I not like it!
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Many tastes are acquired. I grew up eating meat and really liked the taste of meat, so when I switched over to vegetarian as a teenager (for ethical reasons), I still liked the taste of fake-meat burgers, soy hot dogs etc, as the taste was (fairly) similar.

I had some friends from India who had been lifelong vegetarians (never tried any meat), and I had them try out those Boca burgers, mock chicken, etc - and they didn't enjoy them at all. They didn't understand what the hype about foods that taste like meat is about. So if you were to give meat to someone who has never eaten meat, they may not have any specific fondness for it. I have seen little kids, and they seem to like eating fruits better than eating chicken as that taste for meat isn't entrenched yet. I think it takes awhile for people to start getting addicted to the taste and texture of meat.

As for the whole 'meat tastes good' response, it is such a cop-out answer. Just because something tastes good doesn't make it right. Maybe human meat tastes good too, but that doesn't make it okay for us to eat people - no matter how good they taste. However, people seem to think that our ethics stop at the human species, and don't apply to animals. Many people in the US would cringe at the idea of dogs and cats being chopped up and fried and made into an entree, but those same feelings of repulsion don't apply to pigs and cows and chickens for whatever reason... but really it's no less horrible.
 
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rkaz said:
As for the whole 'meat tastes good' response, it is such a cop-out answer. Just because something tastes good doesn't make it right. Maybe human meat tastes good too, but that doesn't make it okay for us to eat people - no matter how good they taste.
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A poster on a vegan forum I post on suggested we invent a product called HuFu – human-flavored tofu.
 
rkaz said:
Many tastes are acquired. I grew up eating meat and really liked the taste of meat, so when I switched over to vegetarian as a teenager (for ethical reasons), I still liked the taste of fake-meat burgers, soy hot dogs etc, as the taste was (fairly) similar.

I had some friends from India who had been lifelong vegetarians (never tried any meat), and I had them try out those Boca burgers, mock chicken, etc - and they didn't enjoy them at all. They didn't understand what the hype about foods that taste like meat is about. So if you were to give meat to someone who has never eaten meat, they may not have any specific fondness for it. I have seen little kids, and they seem to like eating fruits better than eating chicken as that taste for meat isn't entrenched yet. I think it takes awhile for people to start getting addicted to the taste and texture of meat.

As for the whole 'meat tastes good' response, it is such a cop-out answer. Just because something tastes good doesn't make it right. Maybe human meat tastes good too, but that doesn't make it okay for us to eat people - no matter how good they taste. However, people seem to think that our ethics stop at the human species, and don't apply to animals. Many people in the US would cringe at the idea of dogs and cats being chopped up and fried and made into an entree, but those same feelings of repulsion don't apply to pigs and cows and chickens for whatever reason... but really it's no less horrible.
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Oh, there's a reason for that; there are plenty of articles on that exact topic.

It mostly has to do with the fact that animals that are closer to the household and more domesticated are usually seen more as "people" than "animals". We tend to personify the animals that are more intimate with human lifestyles, and thus killing "Mr. Snuggles" for meat is hardly the same as killing a chicken in a farm somewhere. We never actually go so far as to think, "why?". An animal that serves a purpose close to home is an animal that isn't slaughtered (although, of course, there are exceptions around the world).
 
Semicolon said:
Oh, there's a reason for that; there are plenty of articles on that exact topic.

It mostly has to do with the fact that animals that are closer to the household and more domesticated are usually seen more as "people" than "animals". We tend to personify the animals that are more intimate with human lifestyles, and thus killing "Mr. Snuggles" for meat is hardly the same as killing a chicken in a farm somewhere. We never actually go so far as to think, "why?". An animal that serves a purpose close to home is an animal that isn't slaughtered (although, of course, there are exceptions around the world).
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Exactly. I know some people who had a pig as an indoor pet. You better believe they ate bacon and eggs at least once a week, too! 😉
 
rkaz said:
Many tastes are acquired. I grew up eating meat and really liked the taste of meat, so when I switched over to vegetarian as a teenager (for ethical reasons), I still liked the taste of fake-meat burgers, soy hot dogs etc, as the taste was (fairly) similar.

I had some friends from India who had been lifelong vegetarians (never tried any meat), and I had them try out those Boca burgers, mock chicken, etc - and they didn't enjoy them at all. They didn't understand what the hype about foods that taste like meat is about. So if you were to give meat to someone who has never eaten meat, they may not have any specific fondness for it. I have seen little kids, and they seem to like eating fruits better than eating chicken as that taste for meat isn't entrenched yet. I think it takes awhile for people to start getting addicted to the taste and texture of meat.

As for the whole 'meat tastes good' response, it is such a cop-out answer. Just because something tastes good doesn't make it right. Maybe human meat tastes good too, but that doesn't make it okay for us to eat people - no matter how good they taste. However, people seem to think that our ethics stop at the human species, and don't apply to animals. Many people in the US would cringe at the idea of dogs and cats being chopped up and fried and made into an entree, but those same feelings of repulsion don't apply to pigs and cows and chickens for whatever reason... but really it's no less horrible.
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has anybody seen those stupid burger king commercials? where they go to some foreign country and they give someone who has a big mac and a whopper (something like that) and then they ask them which one they enjoy better. Of course they always choose the whopper...i just think its funny cuz its complete BS. People who have not grown up eating sh*tty ass burger king hamburgers WILL NOT find a whopper or a big mac appetizing. I dunno who they are trying to fool.
 
binko said:
Actually for me it is something like a religion – part of a whole worldview based on respect for sentient life and for the environment that we share with all living things.
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rkaz said:
Me too. It's part of my personal growth and spiritual process as well. 👍
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I can understand being a vegetarian because you don't like the taste, because of health reasons, or because of the environment. But it's really odd to bring in personal growth angle into it. Or spirituality.

Why draw such a line? And where is that line drawn? Shrimp? Fish? Chicken? It seems odd to be spiritually at one and have respect for chicken cells but not celery cells.


rkaz said:
For those willing and brave enough to really look into your food choices and the issue of animal abuse, here is a documentary called Earthlings which is free through Google Video. It's hard to watch, but really eye opening on animal abuse issues. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142&ei=FnWtSeGUHqe4qAPtnL30Cw&q=earthlings
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You're presumably going into medicine. How do you think most things in biology are found or tested? It's not all HeLa cells.
 
Lokhtar said:
Why draw such a line? And where is that line drawn? Shrimp? Fish? Chicken? It seems odd to be spiritually at one and have respect for chicken cells but not celery cells.
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I draw the line at the edge of the animal kingdom, just to be on the safe side, but what I really care about is not causing pain to any creature. So for me the presence of a nervous system and the ability to respond immediately to painful stimuli is the real deciding factor.

I try to base my life around avoiding causing pain to any creature and learning to alleviate the pain of others.

Major religions often contain nods to the validity of animals' feelings, for example, I follow the Jewish rule about feeding your animals before you feed yourself. I never eat while my cats are hungry (except the one that has to be on a diet for health reasons, poor little guy).

(And before you ask, or assume I'm a hypocrite, yes I feed my cats vegan cat food as well. Yes it is nutritionally complete for cats. And yes, their vet is aware of it.)
 
binko said:
I draw the line at the edge of the animal kingdom, just to be on the safe side, but what I really care about is not causing pain to any creature. So for me the presence of a nervous system and the ability to respond immediately to painful stimuli is the real deciding factor.
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What if the animal was dead (say you hit it with your car), would you eat it then?

And most creatures have some sort of mechanisms to avoid harmful stimuli, including those without a nervous system. Plants, for example, secrete sugars, LEA proteins, etc, in response to water stress, or weather.
 
dkb86 said:
Well I am pre-MD (starting med school in August) and I'm a vegetarian! So I guess I am one exception to your theory 🙂 although I do eat fish, so perhaps I don't count as I am not a "true" vegetarian...
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we're pisceterians
 
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Lokhtar said:
What if the animal was dead (say you hit it with your car), would you eat it then?

And most creatures have some sort of mechanisms to avoid harmful stimuli, including those without a nervous system. Plants, for example, secrete sugars, LEA proteins, etc, in response to water stress, or weather.
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Would you eat a human you hit with your car? What about your neighbor's dog? That's just a ridiculous question.

I've heard the plants argument before. Yes they can avoid harmful stimuli, but there's no evidence that they experience anything resembling what we know as pain.

Even if plants did experience pain, just as a hypothetical, I would still argue that veganism is the most humane diet because eating meat also causes way more plants to be consumed, due to the 10% rule of trophic levels.

I really don't want this thread to turn into a debate about what I believe though. It was never my intention to try to argue my beliefs or convert anyone. I was only explaining my beliefs because the question was asked.
 
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