Vet School / Vet Profession and Economic Policy

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Shiloh47

Oregon c/o '29
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Well, since the two are so intertwined I thought I might make this thread for a space to discuss all economic ideas or even legislation that would impact vet school/ the job itself. Finances are so intertwined with education & the actual ability to service care within a veterinary business so I feel like it’s a pertinent topic.
 
Would love to use this space too to encourage sharing of any known resources, mutual aid networks, etc that veterinary students can rely on.

Anyone whose a current or prior student who found aid with economic hardship or encountered new areas of support, please share!!

I think many of the incoming class of 2029 as well as the pre-vets applying now will be all ears! I’d also be game for establishing a no-buy or mutual aid network where people could share things they’re getting rid of etc to help make this hard financial time a little easier.

Thanks for making a spot for this Shiloh! How we worry about affording school while affording to live at the same time is the same way our future clients will consider the cost of veterinary care for beloved pets in light of their own finances. Discussing such things openly and thinking collaboratively will only help us all. 🙂🫡
 
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Carrying the thread sorta over here. I never said the early American experience was a utopia. But…you have to ask yourself WHY people were so eager to move here in the 1800s from Europe and other places.

It doesn’t make it right, but sadly many European countries and the southern American states had slaves in the 1600s-1800s. In other words America is not unique in that regard. America would have prospered regardless of that

My family was northern (they founded Maine and Massachusetts before that). They had farms and no siaves and yet as far as we know, they prospered. Two were state and federal politicians. One founded part of Colby college.

Corporatism=|= capitalusm

The Rothschilds and Rockefeller were very much fascists. Not capitalists. They have manipulated the central banks since the 1800s. That’s the exact opposite of free market capitalism


I think we want the same things= for as many people to prosper as we can (if not everyone ideally). We just greatly disagree on what’s the best way to get there. That’s ok. It’s ok to discuss these issues and healthy to do so.

Vet med is its own economic challenge. I feel bad for incoming vet students. It’s likely very hard for you all with the uncertainty going around and high debt. I work in a clinic that serves a lower socioeconomic class. It’s challenging. Giving the government control is not the answer.
 
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Carrying the thread sorta over here. I never said the early American experience was a utopia. But…you have to ask yourself WHY people were so eager to move here in the 1800s from Europe and other places.

It doesn’t make it right, but sadly many European countries and the southern American states had slaves in the 1600s-1800s. In other words America is not unique in that regard. America would have prospered regardless of that

My family was northern (they founded Maine and Massachusetts before that). They had farms and no siaves and yet as far as we know, they prospered. Two were state and federal politicians. One founded part of Colby college.

Corporatism=|= capitalusm

The Rothschilds and Rockefeller were very much fascists. Not capitalists. They have manipulated the central banks since the 1800s. That’s the exact opposite of free market capitalism


I think we want the same things= for as many people to prosper as we can (if not everyone ideally). We just greatly disagree on what’s the best way to get there. That’s ok. It’s ok to discuss these issues and healthy to do so.

Vet med is its own economic challenge. I feel bad for incoming vet students. It’s likely very hard for you all with the uncertainty going around and high debt. I work in a clinic that serves a lower socioeconomic class. It’s challenging. Giving the government control is not the answer.
Okay, I think we need to move away from celebrating colonial heritage. I too have family members who were early settlers- it is not something I look at with pride.

Your discussion and sidestepping of slavery as a major economic institution in early America undermines your argument. Many settlers came to America for the “free” land and religious freedom, and I think we need to steer away from any dismissal of slavery’s effects on not only the American economy, but its public institutions.

Further, fascism is an authoritarian, populist, nationalist political ideology that we saw in Europe during the early to mid-20th century. We are also seeing it today. To suggest Rockefeller et al were manipulating the banks and thus were fascists is not factually correct. You are correct that a free market cannot align with fascism, but there’s more to fascism than economic manipulation.

In my opinion, we can see the danger in talking about the free market without considering confounding human behavior by studying the Athenian experiment. Democracy in its purest form did not lead to functional government or appropriate protections, often gridlocking Athenian leadership and ultimately causing its downfall (alongside other factors). It’s why the Romans created a Republic. In theory, many things will work perfectly but human behavior is so varied and predictably unpredictable that we can never 100% predict outcomes or effects of one thing considered in a vacuum.

Theory only gets us so far, and it’s not relevant if not grounded in reality. I’ve witnessed it myself when trying to roll out public health initiatives within food deserts in Philadelphia. No “pure” ideology will be 100% correct and applicable to every situation and every country…. It’s just the nature of humanity.

The free market wouldn’t have given us the weekend, or protections from labor abuses like childhood labor, wage theft, and dangerous working conditions. Only unions, working class people, and functioning governmental oversight can properly keep capitalism in control. Think about all of the protections we take for granted - those were hard-fought and hard-won by people like the radium girls.

America isn’t what it is today because of capitalism and the free markets but because of its people and their constant battles to improve the lives of their fellow citizens.
 
Okay, I think we need to move away from celebrating colonial heritage. I too have family members who were early settlers- it is not something I look at with pride.

Your discussion and sidestepping of slavery as a major economic institution in early America undermines your argument. Many settlers came to America for the “free” land and religious freedom, and I think we need to steer away from any dismissal of slavery’s effects on not only the American economy, but its public institutions.

Further, fascism is an authoritarian, populist, nationalist political ideology that we saw in Europe during the early to mid-20th century. We are also seeing it today. To suggest Rockefeller et al were manipulating the banks and thus were fascists is not factually correct. You are correct that a free market cannot align with fascism, but there’s more to fascism than economic manipulation.

In my opinion, we can see the danger in talking about the free market without considering confounding human behavior by studying the Athenian experiment. Democracy in its purest form did not lead to functional government or appropriate protections, often gridlocking Athenian leadership and ultimately causing its downfall (alongside other factors). It’s why the Romans created a Republic. In theory, many things will work perfectly but human behavior is so varied and predictably unpredictable that we can never 100% predict outcomes or effects of one thing considered in a vacuum.

Theory only gets us so far, and it’s not relevant if not grounded in reality. I’ve witnessed it myself when trying to roll out public health initiatives within food deserts in Philadelphia. No “pure” ideology will be 100% correct and applicable to every situation and every country…. It’s just the nature of humanity.

The free market wouldn’t have given us the weekend, or protections from labor abuses like childhood labor, wage theft, and dangerous working conditions. Only unions, working class people, and functioning governmental oversight can properly keep capitalism in control. Think about all of the protections we take for granted - those were hard-fought and hard-won by people like the radium girls.

America isn’t what it is today because of capitalism and the free markets but because of its people and their constant battles to improve the lives of their fellow citizens.
We can agree to disagree. Again you are trying to passively aggressively say I’m stupid about these matters. And to say I dismiss slavery and racism is downright shocking 😡. I saw what liberating Dachau did to my grandfather. Only shocking things do that to a person. Some of my best friends are black. My favorite politician is Dr Carson. Sewel is black. I’m not racist. Actually I believe there is all one race-the human race. I do have religious views on this, but I’m not going there here.

No I would never condone slavery. My ancestors fought on the northern side to free slaves. The Republican Party was founded to free slaves. That’s just history.


Please do better and be respectful towards my views. Just because we disagree does not mean I’m evil OR stupid. please stop with the P-A.

I have business people (entrepreneurs who went to top business schools in the country) throughout my family who have taught me practical and theoretical economics. What’s sad is that you haven’t made a rebuttal against the theories of Sewel or Friedman yet say I’m wrong about discussing their theories. Ok.

Yes R and R did manipulate the federal reserve and other central banks and they had a hand at creating it with JP Morgan et al. That’s not free market capitalism. Please just let this go and agree to disagree. Thanks.
 
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We can agree to disagree. Again you are trying to passively aggressively say I’m stupid about these matters. And to say I dismiss slavery and racism is downright shocking 😡. I saw what liberating Dachau did to my grandfather. Only shocking things do that to a person. Some of my best friends are black. My favorite politician is Dr Carson. Sewel is black. I’m not racist. Actually I believe there is all one race-the human race. I do have religious views on this, but I’m not going there here.

No I would never condone slavery. My ancestors fought on the northern side to free slaves. The Republican Party was founded to free slaves. That’s just history.


Please do better and be respectful towards my views. Just because we disagree does not mean I’m evil OR stupid. I hate to say it, but I probably went to vet school before you were here on earth. I’ve read many economic boos and was a lib arts and science major (dual bs and ba). I’ve got a DVM and PhD. I’m not saying this to brag. I’m saying this because you need to be respectful of others and their views. I DO want to hear your side, but please stop with the P-A.

I have business people (entrepreneurs who went to top business schools in the country) throughout my family who have taught me practical and theoretical economics. What’s sad is that you haven’t made a rebuttal against the theories of Sewel or Friedman yet say I’m wrong about discussing their theories. Ok.

Yes R and R did manipulate the federal reserve and other central banks and they had a hand at creating it with JP Morgan et al. That’s not free market capitalism. Please just let this go and agree to disagree. Thanks.
I’m sorry, I really don’t understand how anything I said in my previous response was disrespectful?

Genuinely, you seemed like you wanted to have a deeper discussion about the overall aspects of your argument, which I’ve done.

Respectfully, I do feel like your language in your first response implied you were ignoring the realities of slavery as an economic factor in early America. But it’s also just the argument you were making - not YOU as a person, whom I acknowledge deserves respect.

I recognize now that was not your intent but stand by my general call to make sure we are ALL holding ourselves accountable to unintended harm our words may cause and keeping an open mind. I also ask for you to show me the same respect you’re requesting for yourself - you tell me I’m blatantly wrong and then become angry and deprecatory when I present my own opinions. You ask for rebuttal but then refuse to acknowledge it as anything but petulance.

The greatest marker of intelligence is not always being right, but being able to grow and acknowledge another way of thinking. We have much more in common, I’m sure, than our differences.

ETA: I think maybe your interpretation of my wording is maybe due to my particular writing style and my training within my field of research - I say “we” a lot and try to make connections, which maybe that’s the disconnect? Quite genuinely I’m just enjoying being able to cite the Athenian experiment, it’s been awhile!
 
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I’m sorry, I really don’t understand how anything I said in my previous response was disrespectful?

Genuinely, you seemed like you wanted to have a deeper discussion about the overall aspects of your argument, which I’ve done.

Respectfully, I do feel like your language in your first response implied you were ignoring the realities of slavery as an economic factor in early America. But it’s also just the argument you were making - not YOU as a person, whom I acknowledge deserves respect.

I recognize now that was not your intent but stand by my general call to make sure we are ALL holding ourselves accountable to unintended harm our words may cause and keeping an open mind. I also ask for you to show me the same respect you’re requesting for yourself - you tell me I’m blatantly wrong and then become angry and deprecatory when I present my own opinions. You ask for rebuttal but then refuse to acknowledge it as anything but petulance.

The greatest marker of intelligence is not always being right, but being able to grow and acknowledge another way of thinking. We have much more in common, I’m sure, than our differences.
I encourage a rebuttal. Please bring it forward. 🥰.

I care about all ethnicities of people. The same as each other.

I’m not angry except when I’m called racist in a P-A manner. That’s what angered me. I’m from Ohio state. Jesse Owens is one of our heroes. Just know that not everyone who doesn’t agree with certain philosophies are inherently racist because we aren’t.

🥰
 
I encourage a rebuttal. Please bring it forward. 🥰.

I care about all ethnicities of people. The same as each other.

I’m not angry except when I’m called racist in a P-A manner. That’s what angered me. I’m from Ohio state. Jesse Owens is one of our heroes. Just know that not everyone who doesn’t agree with certain philosophies are inherently racist because we aren’t.

🥰
I have provided my rebuttals. I don’t intend to individually respond to theories when I have acknowledged the dangers of all pure ideologies and theories - they cannot be fully adhered to in human societies because of many confounding factors.

I enjoyed being able to discuss the Athenian experiment a bit as part of my support, as well as my own experience with public health and educational theory versus practice.

I think any application of economic theory must be weighed against the realities of humanity and considering avoidance of harm - to people, animals, and our earth. This, in my opinion, proves the necessity of collective action via the wills of the people to rein in potentially dangerous side effects of the free market, like labor abuse, environmental destruction, and human rights violations.
 
I have provided my rebuttals. I don’t intend to individually respond to theories when I have acknowledged the dangers of all pure ideologies and theories - they cannot be fully adhered to in human societies because of many confounding factors.

I enjoyed being able to discuss the Athenian experiment a bit as part of my support, as well as my own experience with public health and educational theory versus practice.

I think any application of economic theory must be weighed against the realities of humanity and considering avoidance of harm - to people, animals, and our earth. This, in my opinion, proves the necessity of collective action via the wills of the people to rein in potentially dangerous side effects of the free market, like labor abuse, environmental destruction, and human rights violations.
Respectfully no you haven’t

There’s lots of Sewel’s theories around. Friedman wrote a lot. Neither are ‘pure theories’. You are just avoiding them and saying you provided rebuttals (even though you didn’t).

Anyways I’m going to bed. This is going nowhere.
 
Respectfully no you haven’t

Okay, I suppose we’ve reached a stalemate. I will bow out then with regard to this adventure. Time to go watch the cinematic masterpiece that is The Mummy.

The Mummy Run GIF by PeacockTV
 
Ahem.

would remind everyone to treat each other with kindness and respect
That includes not demanding respect due to one's academic achievements. This is a safe space for everyone to talk, regardless of where they are in their academic journey.

We will be keeping a close eye on this thread and will close it if deemed necessary, but I would prefer to avoid that. If anyone finds themself getting heated, remember: it's an argument on the Internet. Walk away and take some deep breaths.
 
After some early morning coffee I think the only thing I wanted to touch on was why Europeans moved to America in droves, which comes down to better upward mobility and opportunity vs their homeland. I think part of this is tied up in access to land (land that was acquired in a morally damning way, which I’ll discuss later). In Western Europe if you were poor most land was already sequestered and spoken for. If you didn’t inherit land or assets as private property you didn’t have many options. Bring in feudalism and serfdom, and later indentured servitude. The whole concept of feudalism could go back to the Romans who conquered smaller cultures all throughout Western Europe as far as Britain. Once their power waned, feudalism came up as a kind of way to protect lands that current landowners maintained. There are way too many cultures in western Europe to discuss how Romans influenced each one and altered their cultures with their rule but I’d say ideas of land ownership like we have today must have had Roman influence vs more pastoral or mobile societies where land was not so private.
If you were a simple peasant in medieval Europe there wasn’t much you could do to actually own land, you could just work it. I feel like this idea of access to ownership vs providing labor without ownership to the landowners is essential. Land is freedom to exist, freedom to grow food. Without it, you will always be dependent on someone else. In America, you could own your own land and access was incredibly easy. The Oklahoma land rush— people just raced horses to the patch of land they wanted the fastest and claimed it. I don’t know what system that is but if I was a poor person in Britain that would look appealing to me. (In times prior if you were a married woman or black person, obviously you couldn’t own land so easy. The rules were different and government protections actually have to exist to ensure fair treatment & access. Hell, women couldn’t even get their own credit until the 70’s. Women & black people could participate in the above example but in so many cases the same rules just did not apply and any non-white man/ woman was at a disadvantage from the start.) Now this totally disregards the very real and prosperous cultures of native people who were living in North America for thousands of years. The land we now live on really was violently stolen and it really wasn’t that long ago from a historical perspective. Wounded knee was in 1890 and native people were living their own existence without any euro-centric economic theory. Greed and desire for private land ownership are inextricable from manifest destiny. Immigration of whites from Europe to settle was encouraged to out populate the native people. Immigration isn’t so easy now of course and neither is owning land. Many young people are unable to afford land while the wealthy keep acquiring it because there’s nothing to stop them from amassing so much wealth. This is what brings me to the free market in which private land ownership is a part of it. What exists in a free market to stop a certain group of individuals from acquiring so much land and barring access to poor people? The Carnegie and Rockefeller monopolies were only broken up by the government because of Theodore Roosevelt. What regulation exists in a free market to stop people from creating monopolies like Rockefeller once they amass enough resources to squash competition. If America had something close to a free market during that time, that was exactly when the big 3 created monopolies. As a genuine question, what is the free market theory response to stopping one competitor from destroying all other competition for a service once it can? And second, under this theory could public land even exist or it would all be private? I think total privatization of land is a nightmare and I really believe in the public commons.
 
I'm not a political/economic whiz and feel stupid even entering this thread, but this
Actually I believe there is all one race-the human race
is incredibly dismissive of entire populations of people and the historic/modern challenges they go through as a direct result of the social construct that is 'race.' I encourage you to realize that by saying this, you are effectively saying you are denying the unique identities and backgrounds of millions of people in an effort to 'prove' you are not racist.

I've dropped some thought provoking articles below to read. We talked about this at length in an undergrad class I took and it was a very interesting, eye opening discussion. Saying things like 'I don't see color' or 'I'm colorblind' or 'We're all one race' often come from a very good place, but those of us that do not fall within a minority fail to understand the implications behind those words.


Also as a total side note, but usually racially insensitive/offensive comments that are called out will always be followed with the classic 'I have a black friend so I can't be racist!' Having a POC friend does not mean you are not a racist. And I'm not saying you are because I don't know you. ETA: But it's better to acknowledge an unfortunate misspeak (or mistype) rather than double down with 'facts' that really aren't working in your favor.

:whoa:
 
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Peace out. I’m attacked here for my religious and economic views. Typical in liberal vet med.

We are all one race the human race. I believe we all came from Noah and Adam/Eve before that. I’m not dismissive of race. Christian’s have fought for centuries for this philosophy and have given safe spaces to help people of all ethnicities.


I’m not special with my academic achievements. I’m sorry I mentioned them, but we are always vilified. Actually I couldn’t care less about them, but I don’t appreciate being called stupid or dismissive.

Terrible treatment toward me. Peace out 🙏

I will finish my personal reader statements then likely never come back here. This isn’t a safe space to discuss anything other than what universities have brainwashed the new generations to think.

I’m not racist. The whole there is one race proves I cannot be racist as I believe there is one race.

Peace and God bless. Christ will return soon.
 
Thoughts and prayers.
looooooooooool


Temper tantrum aside from those undergoing only the hardest challenges given unto them, I do really want to make it a point to say that we all say/do things without knowing the full implications at some point. Part of being a human. I personally really appreciate someone saying 'Hey, even though I'm certain you came from a good place/didn't mean harm, your choice of words actually had the opposite effect.' And to avoid coming across as enlightened for no particular reason, I say this because I myself learned a valuable lesson from a coworker many moons ago when I referred to a broken/janky object as 'ghetto.'

We're all learning and growing.
































Well, most of us.
 
That took a turn. Let's try to get this thread back on its intended topic, or we'll need to close it.

@Musicandhorses Click your name in your upper right corner of the screen, next to the envelope icon for DMs. You'll see "log out" at the bottom of the menu that pops up.
 
looooooooooool


Temper tantrum aside from those undergoing only the hardest challenges given unto them, I do really want to make it a point to say that we all say/do things without knowing the full implications at some point. Part of being a human. I personally really appreciate someone saying 'Hey, even though I'm certain you came from a good place/didn't mean harm, your choice of words actually had the opposite effect.' And to avoid coming across as enlightened for no particular reason, I say this because I myself learned a valuable lesson from a coworker many moons ago when I referred to a broken/janky object as 'ghetto.'

We're all learning and growing.
































Well, most of us.
So well said, PP! I have so many people to thank for the kind retraining they provided when I was a young kid right out of college with not a true idea about systemic racism, trying to work and help kids in Philadelphia. It was very white savior-y and I cringe to think of myself then, but I also had some very kind people who kindly helped me alter my thinking and - in doing so- changed my life.
 
It’s why the Romans created a Republic.
Not to be that guy, but technically the Romans founded their republic in 509 B.C. which is two years before Cleisthenes introduced his Demokratia (“rule by the people”) reforms to Athens in 507 B.C., kicking off the Athenian experiment in democracy.

I agree with the general points of your posts here, I just wanted to correct that historical timeline bit. :bag::sorry:
 
We aren’t calling you racist. We are reflecting on our own discoveries of our own racism that is ingrained in us, and how others helped us understand it so that we could fight it and correct our thought patterns.
Thank you. I’m not racist.

That hurt me to the core.

I’m aware of social issues.

Saying there is one race the human race is not dismissive of the issues that have plagued the human race.

I’m hurt by the religious attacks now.

I was going to delete my account because of all this. We MUST be nice and loving to each other of ALL ethnicities and religions. I’ll give it a few more days (or a day or so) on this forum for all of us to just collect our thoughts.

I expect that of all you just as you expect that of me. Please don’t mock me saying ‘thoughts and prayers’. Thank you.
 
Peace out. I’m attacked here for my religious and economic views. Typical in liberal vet med.

We are all one race the human race. I believe we all came from Noah and Adam/Eve before that. I’m not dismissive of race. Christian’s have fought for centuries for this philosophy and have given safe spaces to help people of all ethnicities.


I’m not special with my academic achievements. I’m sorry I mentioned them, but we are always vilified. Actually I couldn’t care less about them, but I don’t appreciate being called stupid or dismissive.

Terrible treatment toward me. Peace out 🙏

I will finish my personal reader statements then likely never come back here. This isn’t a safe space to discuss anything other than what universities have brainwashed the new generations to think.

I’m not racist. The whole there is one race proves I cannot be racist as I believe there is one race.

Peace and God bless. Christ will return soon.
I didn’t attack anything I gave you my opinion to the question you asked about WHY people left Europe for America. Then I asked how free market theory could prevent monopolies & privatization of land. Debate can get spicy but nowhere was there an attack in my response or by creating this thread.
 
Not to be that guy, but technically the Romans founded their republic in 509 B.C. which is two years before Cleisthenes introduced his Demokratia (“rule by the people”) reforms to Athens in 507 B.C., kicking off the Athenian experiment in democracy.

I agree with the general points of your posts here, I just wanted to correct that historical timeline bit. :bag::sorry:
OMG YOU ARE SO RIGHT, consider my Classics major self corrected I am so embarrassed LOLOLOL.

In my mind I’m thinking of later Republican authors justifying the republic based on Athens. Look at me falling for Roman propaganda 🤣🤣🤣
 
OMG YOU ARE SO RIGHT, consider my Classics major self corrected I am so embarrassed LOLOLOL.

In my mind I’m thinking of later Republican authors justifying the republic based on Athens. Look at me falling for Roman propaganda 🤣🤣🤣
You'll have to forgive me. It's just that no one is ever giving the Romans credit for their accomplishments.

It's always "the Greeks invented democracy!" and "the Persians invented Algebra!" and what does everyone remember the Romans for?!

Some middle manager in a backwoods province nailing a dude to a cross, and this:
1750866650844.jpeg

...smh 😔
 
You'll have to forgive me. It's just that no one is ever giving the Romans credit for their accomplishments.

It's always "the Greeks invented democracy!" and "the Persians invented Algebra!" and what does everyone remember the Romans for?!

Some middle manager in a backwoods province nailing a dude to a cross, and this:

...smh 😔
Honestly wouldn’t mind the **** sponge it was like a pseudo bidet
 
You'll have to forgive me. It's just that no one is ever giving the Romans credit for their accomplishments.

It's always "the Greeks invented democracy!" and "the Persians invented Algebra!" and what does everyone remember the Romans for?!

Some middle manager in a backwoods province nailing a dude to a cross, and this:

...smh 😔
Funny enough, my misstep was NOT because of my amazing knowledge of Athenian democracy, but instead because of my particular degree focus in classics - I focused on the Romans, particularly the late Republic (fun I know) and its political and military history and eventually historiography that allowed for the establishment of empire.

I fell hook line and sinker for the late republican Roman authors who made themselves look superior to the Athenians because their republic was an improvement on the Athenians 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Also, would love a good Roman discussion sometime, I miss it so much.

I personally remember the Romans for their (a) relentless pursuit of indoor heating and plumbing, (b) commitment to chariot race teams, and (c) the Lupercalia.

I’m also a big fan of Mark Antony and his ridiculous antics, like drunkenly throwing up into the folds of his toga. What a stoic, model Tribune 🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
Well. I'm not going to touch on the historical aspects of the American economy because while it matters, it's a downward cause and effect that we cannot change. I honestly also don't have the knowledge to discuss them in depth.

Between the stars has nothing to do with vet med economics. That will be separated out. I'm unlikely to respond to any responses to the stuff in between the stars cause I don't really know what my feelings are in regards to the emotional discussion going on are.

*********

In regards to the actual emotional argument:

I also encourage everyone who has been around the forums for an extended period of time to find your way to the Sociopolitical Forums here on SDN. I'm not sure how to share it with y'all as it's something that is purposely hidden and very minimally moderated. There's a lot of political discussions there I think would do a lot of people good.

There's obviously miscommunication going on here for multiple people to feel attacked from each other. I honestly didn't read all of it because it was going nowhere. But intent of speech matters to me just as much as the response on the receiving end. I'm glad to see someone like @Musicandhorses present to break up the monotony of thought I feel a lot of us share. If there's anything I've learned going through living in Denver, going to college in the middle of nowhere Nebraska, and going back to Denver, is there is a lot of variation of thoughts from one source across politics, religion, economy, etc. and pretty much none of them are entirely correct and what functionally works best is a mix of these different thoughts.

******************

VET MED ECONOMICS, SOMETHING I HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE TALKING ABOUT

So, like I stated in the thread started by the human medical director, the number one issue in vet med is the fact it is capitalistically driven. Our services are at the same level of a mechanic as the most common analogy I see. Even for people who don't drive, it still works cause our USDA and APHIS vets are similar to the mechanics that take care of city buses as an extension of that analogy.

Therefore, veterinary medicine is a luxury service industry. Animals are property (whether or not that's a bad or good thing is a whole other discussion, which can be had; im just not going to touch on that here). And so from an obligation standpoint, the client only has an obligation to seek an opinion on care and medical advice. As an emergency doctor, it is not uncommon for me to have people sign AMAs when they refuse treatment options, which includes euthanasia. I had a family take their dog home that was likely ITP for her to bleed out and die at home. And there is very little I can do about that. There are no consequences for these owners because 1) they sought vet care and 2) I cannot prove negligence or abuse. The dog was very well cared for otherwise, tbh, and it was apparent they loved here. But they could not afford treatment and did not believe in euthanasia. It is what it is. All I could have potentially changed is calling animal control on specific cases. I don't frequently because they ultimately don't have the time or resources to go to every case I would call in on.

Now, the majority of ER and specialty practices are owned by corporations, and most of those are venture capital or similar types of corporations. They infiltrated human med some time ago and they are ultimately driven by consolidation and streamlining services. I'm honestly not against that type of business model on its face because that does make things more efficient. However, the problem is that they corporations are driven by year over year increases in growth. The head honchos are paid a percentage of those increases. Unfortunately, in vet med, that's not a given because, as earlier stated, we are a luxury industry. People will pick us last after groceries and gas. Our oldest hospital has had quite a few DOAs lately. Home many of them are true DOAs vs animals that had been sick that never got help? Impossible to say. My hospitals are about 2 million below projections between the three of them. VCA closed a bunch of their urgent cares. Blue Pearl is trying to reduce costs. Corps are starting to feel the pinch.

Solutions? I don't know if privately owned practices are the end all be all. The two privately owned ERs in my area have a terrible reputation and a meh reputation. Both are poor enough that I havent jumped ship yet. I honestly have not had a positive experience in a privately owned hospital ever. Likewise, VEG is a corporation where the primary owners are the two ER doctors who owned founded it and they have a financial board. There are GP/Urgent Care combos (GoodVets, CityVet) that are franchise corporates that the DVM owns the local clinic down the street from me (a classmate actually owns it tbh).

Likewise, I grew up in a family owned business that was animal based. My grandpa's grandma started it in 1906. My grandparents got out in, like, the late 00s or early 10s. My mom was out in 2015. My aunt died, so out in 20. I have a few cousins who are still in it, and one is actually actively trying to change the industry, though I think that battle was lost 30-35 years ago. And what did I learn? Owning your own business, especially in family, can suck. While I had a good childhood overall, my mom being on call 24/7, my parents finances being completely tied up in the business (great recession left us in perpetual near homelessness for years with close calls that I missed at the time), and more was absolutely terrible. I am much more financially savvy than my mother or even my grandparents, and would very likely be a better business owner. And it's still a hard no to me. My sole exception would be if the leadership I'm currently losing would start a privately owned ER, then I would join as a silent partner potentially.

So that's the business side in a small nutshell, likely missing somethings. Maybe the person who runs the VIN foundation account can chime in. Going into vin and reading anything written by Tony Bartels or Rebecca Mears would be great too.

What about the school side?

Flat trash, that's what. But I'm leaving my coffee shop now and have to sign off for now. TTFN.
 
For real though I would dig a Roman history or just classical history thread. 👀 Maybe actually make it? I was always interested in Roman Britain
Boudicca would dislike your excitement about “Roman” Britain 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I for one would love something like that! Despite my grievous timeline error, I did in fact survive the trenches of a Classics degree, which included an ancient professor at Penn State who enjoyed making me on-the-spot translate the most raunchy poems by late Republican poet, Catullus. Catullus 16 anyone?! 🤪🤪🤪 Though Catullus 101 is one of the most beautiful poems I’ve ever read.

Another favorite is Ovid. What a dude.
 
Boudicca would dislike your excitement about “Roman” Britain 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I for one would love something like that! Despite my grievous timeline error, I did in fact survive the trenches of a Classics degree, which included an ancient professor at Penn State who enjoyed making me on-the-spot translate the most raunchy poems by late Republican poet, Catullus. Catullus 16 anyone?! 🤪🤪🤪 Though Catullus 101 is one of the most beautiful poems I’ve ever read.

Another favorite is Ovid. What a dude.
We translated some Catullus in my Latin classes in high school and I...questioned the curricular choice there on a few occasions :laugh:
 
Ugh my one semester of latin brings back nightmares. I didn't think declension could get worse than German but Latin word order had me in the pits. At least I remember....agricolae sumus....*bum-ba-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum*
 
Ugh my one semester of latin brings back nightmares. I didn't think declension could get worse than German but Latin word order had me in the pits. At least I remember....agricolae sumus....*bum-ba-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum*
I did 4 years! And what do I have to show for it??

Absolutely nothing because it was ~15 years ago now and my brain has atrophied
 
We translated some Catullus in my Latin classes in high school and I...questioned the curricular choice there on a few occasions :laugh:
NOOOO Catullus is not HS appropriate at any level!!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@Zenge142 do you have any interest in a Roman book club? Lol. Also, a beloved mentor of mine, Dr. Garrett Fagan, wrote several fantastic assessments of Roman social life, including bathing as well as the games. I’m actually planning on rereading his masterwork, The Lure of the Arena: Social Psychology and the Crowd at the Roman Games.
 
I did 4 years! And what do I have to show for it??

Absolutely nothing because it was ~15 years ago now and my brain has atrophied
I have woefully lost my advanced Latin and in its place is a sad sham of what it used to be.

That being said, I’ll never forget HANNIBAL AD PORTAS!

And, of course, Catullus 16.

ETA: I had a history professor who taught me throughout my time at Penn State, and he started to notice a change in my writing when I became very advanced in Latin, and complained to me that I was utilizing way too much passive voice and odd phrasing, asking if I was okay as it was a huge change. His relief and laughter when I told him I just was translating Catullus and Tacitus and Livy and Ovid and Cicero constantly and it was rubbing off on me.
 
Ugh my one semester of latin brings back nightmares. I didn't think declension could get worse than German but Latin word order had me in the pits. At least I remember....agricolae sumus....*bum-ba-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum*
Imagine all the horrors of Latin but in poetic meter……. With a noun separated from its verb by like 18 lines 🤣🤣🤣
 
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