Vet Schools with Good Sheep Programs?

[Finnsheep]

I've always been very interested in small ruminant medicine, and the more I do with small ruminants versus other species, both veterinary and animal experience, the more I find this to be true.

I am also very interested in cattle, but there is no question that I greatly prefer sheep.

I am worried that my emphasis on sheep is going to harm rather than help me come vet school application time. I have spent a great deal of time working in many aspects of the sheep industry, and I understand both the pleasures and pitfalls of small ruminant management and practice. There is a lot of potential for jobs in the sheep world as a vet, but you have to know where to look.

I am primarily interested in ambulatory general practice, with a focus on herd health and theriogenology. I have been extremely fortunate to have had the opportunity to work with a very well-respected New Zealand vet right here in my state, with artificial insemination and embryo collection and transfer (all laparoscopic). I've been interested in therio for a long time, but I have just completely fallen in love with sheep therio. It was probably the most fascinating thing I've done in my life.

Knowing that sheep in general are not taken very seriously here in the United States, I am pondering what I should do when it's time for me to apply to vet schools (and that is not for a couple of years yet). I realize that it is a little early, but to me it makes a lot of sense to start thinking about my options now.

Which US vet schools have good sheep programs? Is small ruminant medicine given fair coverage? What sort of clinical experience do you get with small ruminants? What opportunities are available to learn more?

I am seriously considering AVMA accredited foreign schools as well- Glasgow, Massey (I love the New Zealand grass-based system), etc., and I would very much like to hear about those as well. To me, it might make more sense to also apply to more sheep-oriented foreign schools. I want a lot of sheep experience and I really desire opportunities to work in therio. There are so few vets in the US doing sheep therio that I doubt that I will be able to get a decent foundation in the field.

Schools that emphasize production medicine are definitely desirable. I have a very respectable amount of small animal experience, and while it is very helpful in many ways, I know that I have absolutely no desire to practice small animal medicine, for a variety of reasons. I am fully aware that I will be working with SA in vet school and that is perfectly fine. But production medicine is where my heart is, and lots of ambulatory/farm exposure is something that is extremely appealing to me.

All in all, my end goal is to have a heavy emphasis on sheep, but if I need to work on cattle to support myself, that is what I will do (because I do love cattle).

Any advice/input would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post. 🙂

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[Lissarae06]

I'm not really sure why you think sheep aren't taken seriously here in the US. With that said, Oklahoma State doesn't track so we get quite a bit of exposure to all the species including small rums. We have a very active small ruminant club and our teaching hospital sees a lot of small rums. I think we see more goats than sheep though because of the producers in the area. Langston University which is just south of Oklahoma State has a big goat research center that we work with some. Being a ranching state, we get a lot of cattle as well.

 

[cowgirla]

I'm not really sure why you think sheep aren't taken seriously here in the US. With that said, Oklahoma State doesn't track so we get quite a bit of exposure to all the species including small rums. We have a very active small ruminant club and our teaching hospital sees a lot of small rums. I think we see more goats than sheep though because of the producers in the area. Langston University which is just south of Oklahoma State has a big goat research center that we work with some. Being a ranching state, we get a lot of cattle as well.

👍
We've got a decent small rum caseload. Def more goats than sheep, but still quite a few sheep come into the clinic too, especially around lambing season. I spend lots of time bottle feeding at 2 am Lots of preg tox cases, blocked rams, etc. I know one night last spring I had four ewes, five lambs and a ram in the clinic.

We've got a theriogenology resident, some clinicians who focus on therio in production animals. Small ruminant club had a lecture on therio last year and would probably do more sheep stuff if someone was willing to help organize it and there was interest. I feel like there was a talk on ET in sheep too. Or maybe it was goats...

Food animal techniques class is mostly cattle, but great hands on stuff. Sheep were mentioned a few times. Small ruminant elective had a hands on lab, and we talked about sheep in lecture. small rum club has lots of wet labs - goats, alpacas mostly. You get to castrate lots of small rums haha.

That being said, I think you could get a lot more exposure than what they offer if you put the effort in. I know there are a couple sheep farms in the area. The vet who teaches the bovine therio elective does a lot of work with the Langston goats and does a lot of therio stuff in general, so I'll be he has connections in the sheep world as well.

There is an ambulatory rotation, and students are welcome to ride around on that, but I don't know what kind of sheep case load they see.

I think, of the vet schools in the US, we might have one of the better small rum programs, but its still not great. You would for sure get a strong exposure to production med in general.

You also have your summers and breaks to do externships, and for fourth year, we get 12 weeks of off campus preceptors that can be done anywhere / in any discipline.


From our therio syllabus:

Reproductive surgery
Group Discussion Session – introductory level theriogenology related cases in a case study problem based learning experience
Reproductive Ultrasonography
Bovine Theriogenology - Cattle Reproduction basics
Bovine Theriogenology - Cattle Reproduction basics
Bovine Theriogenology - Cattle Reproduction basics
Bovine Theriogenology - dystocia and common periparturient conditions
Bovine Theriogenology - Estrus synchronization
Bovine Theriogenology - Infectious Infertility and other venereal diseases in bulls and cows; Bovine abortion
Small Ruminant Theriogenology

Topic​

Small Ruminant Theriogenology
Porcine Theriogenology
Porcine Theriogenology
BSE on bulls, rams, bucks and boars
Camelid Theriogenology

 

[Finnsheep]

By "not taken seriously", I mean that many people think that you're insane if you want to strongly focus on sheep as a vet, and act as if sheep and goats are "minor species", and that there is no money in them. None of that is true.

At my IS school, nobody who wants to do exclusively beef or dairy is questioned, but I always get a look and "the talk" (see above comment) when I mention sheep. Not that there is anything wrong with specializing in cattle! Others have mentioned the same thing in other schools.

Is small ruminant AI and ET covered at all at OK State?

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Finnsheep]

Sorry, didn't see cowgirla's post!

 

[DVMDream]

This will be the thrid time I have typed this, hopefully it works this time...

In the UK, we are requried to do EMS (extra mural studies) to be completed during those lovely school breaks that all of the US students get. Basically during the first year you are getting animal handling/husbandry experience broken down like this: 2 weeks cattle (1 week must be UK dairy), 2 weeks horses, 2 weeks sheep (this mean lambing), 1 week cat and dog, 1 week small mammals, 2 week of free choice, 1 week poultry and 1 week of pigs.

We also have AHWAFS courses (Animal husbandry, welfare and food saftey) that cover the breeding, keeping and other aspects of food production. This also includes proper animal handling. We have already been taught the proper animal handling and restraint for sheep, cattle and horses (5 weeks into the course).

During 3rd and 4th year (technically, 2nd and 3rd if you are a GEP, but you become a 3rd year when you are starting 2nd year) you are required to gain clinical EMS skills. This is 26 weeks, IIRC, of EMS to be completed during those breaks that the US students are enjoying.

Your 5th year (final year, 4th year if GEP) is in the clinics.

There is no lack of sheep around Scotland. We get lots of hands on experience as part of the curriculum with a variety of animals. It is a lot of work. The EMS components can be completed anywhere (US, Africa, etc, etc) so there is no limitations as to where you can go, but there aren't really many breaks from school. It is nice to be getting so much experience, but it would sure be nice to get a little bit of a breather built in there somewhere.

 

[Finnsheep]

I am definitely considering the UK and Australian schools, and Massey. I find the emphasis on production systems incredibly appealing and the sheep part especially so.

How many ewes do you generally lamb out during those two weeks? Are these hill flocks or do you get to pick?

 

[DVMDream]

I am definitely considering the UK and Australian schools, and Massey. I find the emphasis on production systems incredibly appealing and the sheep part especially so.

How many ewes do you generally lamb out during those two weeks? Are these hill flocks or do you get to pick?

I won't know until I do it.. In march/April. Most of the farms have hundreds of sheep, so I would say quite a few.

 

[psilovethomas]

At my IS school, nobody who wants to do exclusively beef or dairy is questioned, but I always get a look and "the talk" (see above comment) when I mention sheep.

Is your IS MSU? Do you attend MSU? I don't know why anyone at MSU would discourage you from focusing on small ruminants/sheep. We have a sheep teaching and research farm ON CAMPUS. During your first semester of vet school, you will be at the sheep barn learning how to do PE's, restraint, intubating, etc. The person who runs the sheep barn is really enthusiastic about the sheep and the sheep program at our school. From what I heard in undergrad, he welcomes students to the farm to help out with the animals. So please, don't think MSU thinks your weird for liking sheep..

In addition, we have one of the largest case loads in the country. I'll have to check on the small ruminant case load, though. We have an extra semester of anatomy dedicated to the ruminant (and horse). And it is your IS! $$😉

 

[Finnsheep]

Yes, it is MSU, and the sheep farm manager is wonderful. I'm actually having a really good time in undergrad with sheep, also working with the small ruminant extension specialist. It's mostly individual study, internship type stuff, not academic (classes).

It's certain people in the vet school who seem to think it's odd, and I don't understand why. I just want to have a great foundation in small ruminant medicine, and I would be happy anywhere as long as I can obtain that. I don't mind having to search for these opportunities myself, but I wonder how I am going to be able to really be involved in AI and ET without going to New Zealand or somewhere like that.

 

[psilovethomas]

Yes, it is MSU, and the sheep farm manager is wonderful. I'm actually having a really good time in undergrad with sheep, also working with the small ruminant extension specialist. It's mostly individual study, internship type stuff, not academic (classes).

It's certain people in the vet school who seem to think it's odd, and I don't understand why. I just want to have a great foundation in small ruminant medicine, and I would be happy anywhere as long as I can obtain that. I don't mind having to search for these opportunities myself, but I wonder how I am going to be able to really be involved in AI and ET without going to New Zealand or somewhere like that.

You can do clerkships during clinics. Have you asked the school if they work with any sheep farms? I'm sure you could get that experience that way.

MSU also has a 5 credit therio class during 5th semester

 

[shortnsweet]

I won't know until I do it.. In march/April. Most of the farms have hundreds of sheep, so I would say quite a few.

My herd was 500 ewes. I have heard as few as 250 and as many as 2000 in the UK. So there are plenty of sheep/farms where you can get handling/lambing experience. One of the best things I have done to date in vet school. I learned a ton. Many of my classmates go back year after year even though they have done the EMS requirement.

That being said(and not trying to be a debi downer), small ruminant exclusive vets are practically non-existent in the UK. The way it was explained to me by my farmer is that veterinary costs are far too high compared to the cost of the actual sheep, so they usually just deal with problems themselves. If you are interested in herd health/public health/epi, then you may find more jobs are available.

Large Animal/Ruminant Medicine is a whole different ball game. We've got plenty of cows! Glasgow's Farm Department is pretty awesome, and all the professors I have had so far have been really into it.

 

[shortnsweet]

I am definitely considering the UK and Australian schools, and Massey. I find the emphasis on production systems incredibly appealing and the sheep part especially so.

How many ewes do you generally lamb out during those two weeks? Are these hill flocks or do you get to pick?

Oh and the hill flocks usually take care of themselves, but e-mails from all over the UK get sent to the vet school, so you contact whoever you wish and sort out where you want to be. I was down in Southern England.

 

[Emiloo4]

Your avatar is fantastic, SNS.

 

[shortnsweet]

Your avatar is fantastic, SNS.

Thanks 🙂

 

[sunshinevet]

We have a fairly strong sheep program I think - we do a whole semester unit on just them (60 lectures just on small ruminant medicine and surgery), and reproductive aspects of them are heavily discussed in our repro course. When I picked up our 300 PAGE class notes on sheep, i was like, wtf, didnt know so much went wrong with sheep. We also do a lot of prac classes on sheep and do surgeries on them as well (rumenotomy and vasectomy and caesarean if needed).

That said, I wouldnt come to Australia with the intention of practicing on sheep, or even getting "extra opportunities", and it is a warning I feel carries to the rest of the world. The price of wool is crap. The price of fat lambs here is pretty poor. The call out fee for a vet costs more than what the sheep is worth. Even places like New Zealand, where sheep used to be quite valuable, this is happening less and less. Ive seen new grads in mixed practice in grazing areas and the only sheep they have ever treated have been pet ones - and theyve been there three years! Most sheep farmers here are good with herd management, the biggest problem they have is when it doesnt rain - not a veterinary problem! So sheep practice is being taught less and less, and Aussie vets just dont treat sheep like they did 40 or 50 years ago. We literally dont see them at the teaching hospital. Most mixed practice/grazier vets will see maybe 1 flock a year. Most would shoot a sheep that REALLY needed a c-section, and preg tox would be shot, not treated too. Just the sad state of the sheep industry here. You talk about doing embryo transfer etc - i dont even think thats a thing here.

NB vet school tuition at Murdoch costs a little over $200,000 - not including your living costs for 5 years. Comparable to the financial mess you come out it, I personally feel any advantage would be neglegible - you would not AFFORD to be able to be a sheep vet! And out of the three AVMA accred schools we have the most prod animal stuff.

 

[Finnsheep]

I'm not necessarily interested in practicing in Australia- I would probably prefer to practice in the USA. However, I am looking at getting a solid education that is heavily based in production medicine and has excellent sheep coverage. I realize that there are plenty of places where sheep are not normally seen by a vet, but our situation in my area is a bit different. Lots of small to medium sized producers, often with valuable rarer breeds, frequently grass-based, and hardly a vet to be had. I'm willing to travel plenty and as I mentioned before, I'm also very willing to work with cattle and even other production species too if need be.

AI and ET is definitely a procedure done reasonably frequently in Australia and NZ, and the call for them in the US is growing. The demand for rare breeds and new bloodlines in those breeds requires semen and embryos. We end up "importing" vets from Aus/NZ to do that work, as the number of US therio vets for sheep is quite small.

 

[rustysmom]

Rotations: When I did my large animal hospital rotation last fall, we had a few sheep. However, there were a lot more sheep in the hospital in spring and summer so timing is everything. 🙂 You'll also do a required ambulatory rotation and you can specify what you want to focus on (equine, food animal, small ruminant, mixed). There are also several small ruminant elective rotations that you can participate in as well. You can also set up 3 off-campus externships where you can work with small ruminant veterinarians for credit.

Pre-clinical: Every spring, you will have a chance to go out to local farms to assist with lambing. PSILT is right - the people in charge of the sheep farm love to have vet students come help - not sure about undergrads. There is a required 5 credit Therio class in 3rd year, but there's only a few lectures on small ruminant therio. I believe there are some small ruminant elective classes that you can take 2nd and/or 3rd year.

Hope that helps! Good luck!

 

[Packen]

I am definitely considering the UK and Australian schools, and Massey. I find the emphasis on production systems incredibly appealing and the sheep part especially so.

How many ewes do you generally lamb out during those two weeks? Are these hill flocks or do you get to pick?

For my lambing (also at Dick vet like DVMD) I was indoors working with a flock that had ~800 ewes. More than half lambed the two weeks I was there. I lost count, but we were looking at 15-20 lambing a day during the busy times.

I was working with a LA vet this summer and we were talking about sheep. He made a comment that many of the sheep farmers he knew in the area over the last 10 years have closed shop. It is too expensive to keep large flocks because land is so expensive. Even if you own your land, the taxes on it in this area can be devastating. More and more farmers were finding themselves unable to make ends meet and either sold their land or started to bring in cattle. But many of them have also hit on really hard times. So depending on where you are practicing, I would think that a sheep-only practice would not be as easy. But you might specialize. Quite a few of my professors from last year are strictly sheep vets, but they are seriously involved in lots of research of parasites and disease.

 

[DVMDream]

Packen,

Am I right in that we don't really have any breaks from school due to EMS? Or did I miss something?

 

[shortnsweet]

Packen,

Am I right in that we don't really have any breaks from school due to EMS? Or did I miss something?

You all don't get Easter Break?

We usually get 4 weeks right around lambing time....

 

[DVMDream]

You all don't get Easter Break?

We usually get 4 weeks right around lambing time....

Yes, we have Easter Break but that is when we are doing lambing... Makes sense, right? 😉

 

[shortnsweet]

Yes, we have Easter Break but that is when we are doing lambing... Makes sense, right? 😉

Oh I guess I just didn't understand what you were asking Packen. 😳

 

[DVMDream]

Oh I guess I just didn't understand what you were asking Packen. 😳

We have all this EMS that we have to do during breaks (Christmas, Easter and Summer) so I was wondering if I was accurate in that we don't actually get any decent amount of time away from school or EMS... Kind of makes me sad... 🙁

 

[shortnsweet]

We have all this EMS that we have to do during breaks (Christmas, Easter and Summer) so I was wondering if I was accurate in that we don't actually get any decent amount of time away from school or EMS... Kind of makes me sad... 🙁

Ohhhh...hahah I've made sure I have breaks. I have never done EMS over xmas. And I usually only do about 8-10 weeks over the summer (our summer is mid May til the end of Sept). Spring I usually do 2-3 weeks and save a week or two for myself.

Mental Health and all that....😉

Oh and with that said I was finished pre clinical my second year, and currently have 20/26 weeks clinical and am just starting fourth year.

 

[DVMDream]

Ohhhh...hahah I've made sure I have breaks. I have never done EMS over xmas. And I usually only do about 8-10 weeks over the summer (our summer is mid May til the end of Sept). Spring I usually do 2-3 weeks and save a week or two for myself.

Mental Health and all that....😉

Yeah... I am hoping to get Christmas break to myself, but most of Easter will be spent lambing and a good 5-6 weeks of Summer break will be doing more EMS stuff. It is one of the only things that I don't like about the UK curriculum when classes are complete I don't want to still have to be doing things during my breaks unless it is something that I have set up and actually want to do. Oh well, at least I will have lots of hands on experience.

 

[shortnsweet]

Yeah... I am hoping to get Christmas break to myself, but most of Easter will be spent lambing and a good 5-6 weeks of Summer break will be doing more EMS stuff. It is one of the only things that I don't like about the UK curriculum when classes are complete I don't want to still have to be doing things during my breaks unless it is something that I have set up and actually want to do. Oh well, at least I will have lots of hands on experience.

But when you think about it. If you went to school in the US, your breaks would be shorter, and you would still have to do some externships, so you probs end up with more breaks in the UK. Plus, i'm pretty sure the EMS rules changed this past year, and there are the same amount of weeks, just fewer requirements on what you have to do, so you can set up your EMS where and how you want it.

 

[DVMDream]

But when you think about it. If you went to school in the US, your breaks would be shorter, and you would still have to do some externships, so you probs end up with more breaks in the UK. Plus, i'm pretty sure the EMS rules changed this past year, and there are the same amount of weeks, just fewer requirements on what you have to do, so you can set up your EMS where and how you want it.

The breaks are a little shorter in the US, but I believe externships are only done during your clinical years so you still get those first couple of years with winter/summer breaks, but if I set up the EMS right I think I can still get a few weeks in the summer and maybe a week or two at Christmas time for little breaks. I need little breaks, it is imperative to my health. 🙂

 

[shortnsweet]

The breaks are a little shorter in the US, but I believe externships are only done during your clinical years so you still get those first couple of years with winter/summer breaks, but if I set up the EMS right I think I can still get a few weeks in the summer and maybe a week or two at Christmas time for little breaks. I need little breaks, it is imperative to my health. 🙂

Haha I think you will have plenty of breaks. I'm just finishing up 6 weeks off 🙂

 

[DVMDream]

Haha I think you will have plenty of breaks. I'm just finishing up 6 weeks off 🙂

Good to know! Did you do anything during those 6 weeks or just relax? 🙂

 

[shortnsweet]

Good to know! Did you do anything during those 6 weeks or just relax? 🙂

Was in a friend's wedding, visited people, rode ponies. Was heavenly 😀

 

[DVMDream]

Was in a friend's wedding, visited people, rode ponies. Was heavenly 😀

Sounds awesome! I am really hoping to have Christmas at home this year. I need some time at home with my family and to just relax. 🙂

 

[devyn]

You all don't get Easter Break?

We usually get 4 weeks right around lambing time....

You get 4 weeks for Easter! 😱 we only get 2! biotch!!!! 😡


but anyhow..... UCD is very similar in it's pre-clinical and clinical EMS requirements as the schools in the UK.... so lots of work with the small ruminants and lambing to be done... we also do dissections on our sheepy friends.... 🙂

I love sheeps! I love flipping sheeps the best - especially those big stocky rams - my favorite are the Beltex.... they look like little staffords - with their muscled asses!!!!! 😀

 

[shortnsweet]

You get 4 weeks for Easter! 😱 we only get 2! biotch!!!! 😡


but anyhow..... UCD is very similar in it's pre-clinical and clinical EMS requirements as the schools in the UK.... so lots of work with the small ruminants and lambing to be done... we also do dissections on our sheepy friends.... 🙂

I love sheeps! I love flipping sheeps the best - especially those big stocky rams - my favorite are the Beltex.... they look like little staffords - with their muscled asses!!!!! 😀

Haha sorry!

Texels!...they look like bulldogs.
Ugh flashback to first year when I had to learn all the breeds and crosses

 

[DVMDream]

Haha sorry!

Texels!...they look like bulldogs.
Ugh flashback to first year when I had to learn all the breeds and crosses

Yeah... I needs to study that to, but that exam isn't until after our Easter Break (which is 4 weeks here too, devyn... 😛).

 

[devyn]

Haha sorry!

Texels!...they look like bulldogs.
Ugh flashback to first year when I had to learn all the breeds and crosses

Yeah we have to learn all the breeds/crosses of sheeps & cows.... we have an animal handling exam at the end of this year....

Yeah... I needs to study that to, but that exam isn't until after our Easter Break (which is 4 weeks here too, devyn... 😛).

shut your cake hole! 😛

 

[Finnsheep]

I have most of my sheep breeds down...kind of an obsession of mine. I could probably name 200 breeds from the top of my head and list several characteristics of each. I LOVE the UK breeds like Cotswold, Wensleydale, Scottish Blackface, Teeswater, etc. Actually, I love all breeds. 🙂 Texels are great, so are Ile de France. Got any Finns on the farms you work?

I can't identify any swine breeds though except for Mulefoot. I'm pretty solid on my cattle breeds.

I lambed 40 ewes over 16 weeks this year, so I'm thinking several hundred over two weeks would be so much better. I got just about zero sleep and felt like I was dead, though I wouldn't give it up for anything. I agree with those wholeheartedly who say they've learned more through lambing than almost anything else.

 

[shortnsweet]

I have most of my sheep breeds down...kind of an obsession of mine. I could probably name 200 breeds from the top of my head and list several characteristics of each. I LOVE the UK breeds like Cotswold, Wensleydale, Scottish Blackface, Teeswater, etc. Actually, I love all breeds. 🙂 Texels are great, so are Ile de France. Got any Finns on the farms you work?

I can't identify any swine breeds though except for Mulefoot. I'm pretty solid on my cattle breeds.

I lambed 40 ewes over 16 weeks this year, so I'm thinking several hundred over two weeks would be so much better. I got just about zero sleep and felt like I was dead, though I wouldn't give it up for anything. I agree with those wholeheartedly who say they've learned more through lambing than almost anything else.

LOVE saying Teeswater! And Swaledales.

Dunno about the Finns, I had Texels and greyfaces, but it depends on where you go really. It was a great experience. Luckily our farmer was awesome so our shift was only 6am until 2pm and then we had the rest of the day off. Super family. Some of my friends had to do night shifts or 12 hour shifts. No thanks 🙂 I think we had about half of them go in the 2 weeks, most being in the second week.

Oh sheep...you special creatures

 

[Finnsheep]

Swaledales😍

I've had 24 hour shifts lambing all alone. Sounds like you were very fortunate with your hours. I can do 24/7 for a couple of weeks (meaning I literally sleep in the lambing barn) as long as it isn't too cold. This past lambing season it was NASTY- 2 degrees with bitter winds, and I was trying to prevent myself from dying of hypothermia while also trying to keep the lambs from becoming hypothermic. The lambs always won out on that one (this was my flock), but I sure was glad when the Feb. group was finished because then I could take cold lambs to bed with me in the house.

 

[shortnsweet]

Swaledales😍

I've had 24 hour shifts lambing all alone. Sounds like you were very fortunate with your hours. I can do 24/7 for a couple of weeks (meaning I literally sleep in the lambing barn) as long as it isn't too cold. This past lambing season it was NASTY- 2 degrees with bitter winds, and I was trying to prevent myself from dying of hypothermia while also trying to keep the lambs from becoming hypothermic. The lambs always won out on that one (this was my flock), but I sure was glad when the Feb. group was finished because then I could take cold lambs to bed with me in the house.

Gosh. I wish you could come to Glasgow. Our sheep farmer/prof is an absolute LEGEND. Fishwick loves his sheep, esp his broken girl whom he adores and keeps as a pet year after year.

Rumor has it he is retiring soon though...who knows how true it is. I'm convinced he was classmates with James Herriot.

 

[Finnsheep]

He sounds like a great person. I may go to Glasgow...if I do, I hope he's still around!

 

[ursulamajor]

I am seriously considering AVMA accredited foreign schools as well- Glasgow, Massey (I love the New Zealand grass-based system), etc., and I would very much like to hear about those as well. To me, it might make more sense to also apply to more sheep-oriented foreign schools. I want a lot of sheep experience and I really desire opportunities to work in therio. There are so few vets in the US doing sheep therio that I doubt that I will be able to get a decent foundation in the field.

I don't think Massey is going to get you where you want to go. We did learn a lot about sheep farming, but the info was primarily about grass growing (a lot of very NZ-specific data, not of much use in US) and herd health. Very little about treating disease in the individual sheep.

New Zealand farmers generally don't observe or assist ewes with lambing (unlike the UK), and they won't spend money treating individual sheep. That's because lamb/wool prices are so low. Further, some would argue that the sheep production system in New Zealand is largely based on controlled starvation of ewes -- the reality doesn't match the pastoral ideal.

If you're curious about Massey's coursework on sheep, you can just buy the book here: http://www.nzva.org.nz/imisordersproduct/sheep-health-disease-production-3rd-edition -- that was the basis of our sheep medicine lectures. Our coursework included precious little sheep therio - no AI, no ET, and definitely no laparascopy involved. Plus, the sheep lecturers were...how shall I put this... underwhelming.

 

[sunshinevet]

I don't think Massey is going to get you where you want to go. We did learn a lot about sheep farming, but the info was primarily about grass growing (a lot of very NZ-specific data, not of much use in US) and herd health. Very little about treating disease in the individual sheep.

New Zealand farmers generally don't observe or assist ewes with lambing (unlike the UK), and they won't spend money treating individual sheep. That's because lamb/wool prices are so low. Further, some would argue that the sheep production system in New Zealand is largely based on controlled starvation of ewes -- the reality doesn't match the pastoral ideal.

If you're curious about Massey's coursework on sheep, you can just buy the book here: http://www.nzva.org.nz/imisordersproduct/sheep-health-disease-production-3rd-edition -- that was the basis of our sheep medicine lectures. Our coursework included precious little sheep therio - no AI, no ET, and definitely no laparascopy involved. Plus, the sheep lecturers were...how shall I put this... underwhelming.

+1 👍

AI and ET is definitely a procedure done reasonably frequently in Australia and NZ, and the call for them in the US is growing. The demand for rare breeds and new bloodlines in those breeds requires semen and embryos. We end up "importing" vets from Aus/NZ to do that work, as the number of US therio vets for sheep is quite small.

AI and ET is NOT a procedure done reasonably frequently in Aus/NZ sheep. Perhaps back in the day 20+ years ago when the wool price was OK, but these days the value of the sheep and the offspring would be less than the veterinarians costs. These days its barely worth it for farmers to pay shearers, let alone veterinarians. I have no doubt that there are some sheep therio vets from Aus and NZ in the US - but there are SO FEW sheep therio vets in Aus, and no demand for them whatsoever. When we do repro work with sheep we synch them with vasectomised rams, lol. We don't do rare breeds here, we do fat lambs and thats about it now - its not worth it for most farmers to grow for fleece these days, most are switching.
I don't want to sound like a debbie downer, but you going to school overseas is damn expensive compared to you doing it in the US (which is expensive enough as it is) and I just don't feel you would get a sufficient return on your investment to make it worth your while. If you have contacts in the US that do regular veterinary work on sheep, I would stay in the US, go to vet school as cheaply as you can, and utlilise that to your fullest extent.

I think its also important to remember that veterinary work and the EMS work done in the UK/AU/NZ version of veterinary schooling are different. Farmers can ALWAYS find plenty of work for veterinary students to do for free - they can't always find plenty of work for vets. So I wouldnt automatically assume that plenty of sheep EMS experience = plenty of sheep veterinary medicine/surgery experience. The two are very different.

Sorry if I sound very THIS IS HOW IT IS, but I've grown up in a pastoral region of Australia. I have been very involved in farming communities. I have seen farmers cry over the price of grain and hay vs the price of wool and the meterorology report not prediciting rain for another 8 months. I've seen huge sheep stations being taken over by brahman cattle because the price of wool has plummetted and there would not be enough money from the sales to pay for people to muster and shear, let alone pay the grain and water bill at the end of the season. So no, veterinary work on sheep is not commonly done in Australia. Sometimes just feeding the sheep is a herculean task.

 

[Finnsheep]

+1 👍



AI and ET is NOT a procedure done reasonably frequently in Aus/NZ sheep. Perhaps back in the day 20+ years ago when the wool price was OK, but these days the value of the sheep and the offspring would be less than the veterinarians costs. These days its barely worth it for farmers to pay shearers, let alone veterinarians. I have no doubt that there are some sheep therio vets from Aus and NZ in the US - but there are SO FEW sheep therio vets in Aus, and no demand for them whatsoever. When we do repro work with sheep we synch them with vasectomised rams, lol. We don't do rare breeds here, we do fat lambs and thats about it now - its not worth it for most farmers to grow for fleece these days, most are switching.
I don't want to sound like a debbie downer, but you going to school overseas is damn expensive compared to you doing it in the US (which is expensive enough as it is) and I just don't feel you would get a sufficient return on your investment to make it worth your while. If you have contacts in the US that do regular veterinary work on sheep, I would stay in the US, go to vet school as cheaply as you can, and utlilise that to your fullest extent.

I think its also important to remember that veterinary work and the EMS work done in the UK/AU/NZ version of veterinary schooling are different. Farmers can ALWAYS find plenty of work for veterinary students to do for free - they can't always find plenty of work for vets. So I wouldnt automatically assume that plenty of sheep EMS experience = plenty of sheep veterinary medicine/surgery experience. The two are very different.

Sorry if I sound very THIS IS HOW IT IS, but I've grown up in a pastoral region of Australia. I have been very involved in farming communities. I have seen farmers cry over the price of grain and hay vs the price of wool and the meterorology report not prediciting rain for another 8 months. I've seen huge sheep stations being taken over by brahman cattle because the price of wool has plummetted and there would not be enough money from the sales to pay for people to muster and shear, let alone pay the grain and water bill at the end of the season. So no, veterinary work on sheep is not commonly done in Australia. Sometimes just feeding the sheep is a herculean task.

I'm sorry if I didn't make my statements more clear. I do certainly realize that AI and ET is done quite infrequently in Australia/NZ, but there are more vets who perform these procedures there than there are here. And it's obviously not a procedure done routinely on average animals, so by its very nature it is not done commonly.

I think sheep therio vets are incredibly scarce anywhere.

Australia and NZ does do lots of rare breeds, exactly as the US does. It may not be a well-known segment of the industry, but it exists and it is growing. The demand for specialty products such as spinning wools is quite high if marketed properly and while I don't know about Australia and New Zealand, specialty lamb is quite popular here too. It's a niche market for sure, but it most certainly is not a bubble that is going to burst.

Our sheep industry as a whole is going through very much the same situation that you are. We don't have so many issues with drought, though this year has been severe for us, but farmers here lose money over the wool, can't afford to have a vet over, etc. One the other hand, people are selling spinning fleeces at $8-40/lb. and lamb at $9 because they choose to pursue a different marketing avenue, and will pay a vet to come over and AI and flush and implant embryos in their very valuable ewes.

I do realize that veterinary work and EMS work are two separate entities.

Thank you for your input! I understand that this field may not be the easiest or the most profitable and I'm willing to be flexible, but I want to understand what my options are, and I'm committed to the sheep industry. I do find dairy to be an attractive backup/supplement but honestly I would much rather be amongst sheep.

 

[sunshinevet]

Not a problem, I am happy to contribute my opinion if it helps you along. Absolutely there are niche markets - not many near vet schools though - I should have specified, by return on your investment, I mean I don't think you'd gain any better sheep experience here to be worth your extra $200,000 than in the US. You would still need to travel very very widely within Aus to gain much valuable experience. Maybe go to school in the US and use your current contacts to do international externships? I gather you know people who know people over here? By "return on your investment" I meant experience wise - none of us are in this for a very good return on a financial investment, haha 😛

FWIW, I think you have a better chance of making it as a sheep vet than the billions of people seeming in my vet class who want to be wildlife vets 😉 And I dont mean that in a mean way, just an honest way (to the wildlife people, that is).

That said, the sheep lady we have here is the most passionate person about sheep ive ever met. She freaking loves them, and treats them with more care and compassion than most people treat their pets. A wealth of knowledge and experience, and we are very very lucky to learn from her.

The state of the sheep industry here though is in a huge decline and has been for the last 15+ years. And now the anti-muslesing people have won, the fleece industry is about to finish dying its slow painful death...

 

[cowgirla]

Currently at a meeting for the small rum club
Speaker is a local vet, currently talking about the sheep industry in OK
Basically, still a few commercial producers left, but not many. TONS of pets and small time farmers. He cant remember the last time his clinic didn't have at least one sheep in it for treatment. He hires students to work and takes on vet students who want to shadow.


And he ended with a couple case studies of sheep that have been in his hospital in the past few weeks.