Veterinary Forensics

[cheathac]

So, I ran across this while doing some research and it really sparked my interest. Anyone have any experience or know much about the field? I noticed it's newer, but gaining a lot of interest. Currently I'm wanting to do pathology and think this would be something cool to go into. Any thoughts appreciated!

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[vetmedhead]

It's an interesting field, from what I've seen. Obviously, being forensics, it's geared toward the identification of animal cruelty and the processing of evidence related to those types of crimes. I think UF has a Master's and a Certificate program for veterinary forensics, though I'm not sure how useful those are in the real world as I've never met or heard of anyone who had them.

Some things that are important to the field in general: toxicology, entomology, potentially some understanding of botany, good necropsy skills, thorough understanding of the law and how it relates to your ability to confiscate animals/prosecute for cruelty, evidence processing/maintenance of chain of custody, and some understanding of common types of "large-scale" cruelty (examples: dog fighting, cock fighting, puppy mills, etc). DNA, blood spatter, and general crime scene analysis can also be important, depending on what you do. It's also important to be able to discern between injuries caused by cruelty vs injuries caused by other things (especially if you happen to be interested in working on wildlife crimes). Also keep in mind that not all animals that come in for cruelty cases would be deceased - many are alive and for that reason good physical exam skills are important too.

Something to consider is where veterinary forensics would be used. It's a bit of a niche field if you think about it, and those that do make use of it regularly/often that I've seen are either veterinarians who almost exclusively do animal cruelty investigations (for example, forensic veterinarians hired by the ASPCA) or veterinarians who encounter animal cruelty on a semi-regular basis and need to be able to accurately collect evidence and present information for court cases (for example, veterinarians at many animal control facilities and/or shelters). From my understanding, another aspect of forensics is being able to testify as a witness in animal cruelty cases as well.

For reference, here's a current job posting from the ASPCA for a Forensic Veterinarian position. They listed a board certification in pathology as a plus for the position, but not a requirement.

Summary:
Responsibilities:

• Provision of forensic sciences services for Miami Dade Animal Services (80%)
• Serve as the ASPCA’s lead liaison to Miami Dade Animal Services.Consulting and providing case assistance as necessary.

• Work closely with the Chief Veterinarian at Miami Dade Animal Services to ensure performance and facilitation of forensic veterinary services for Miami Dade Animal Services.
• Serve as an animal medical examiner and provide forensic analysis of evidence (e.g. necropsies) via Miami Dade Animal Services or the University of Florida laboratory, as needed.
• Responsible for performing clinical forensic exams, gross necropsies, completing reports for law enforcement, and expert witness testimony as needed.
• Utilize appropriate chain of custody, evidence transfer and disposition procedure for forensic evidence.
• Utilize current accepted and standardized scientific procedures for the analysis and reporting for scientific findings.
• Create and implement veterinary forensic sciences training/education for Miami Dade Animal Services veterinarians, law enforcement, attorneys, and veterinary students/residents.
• Create and implement forensic protocols and procedures for Miami Dade Animal Services.
• Assist with training, mentoring and assisting other veterinarians in Miami who are involved in law enforcement cases.
• Produce administrative reports and communicate progress updates and status as needed.

• Collaboration on research, teaching and other casework (20%)
• Collaborate with the Director of Veterinary Forensic Sciences on forensic evaluation of animal cruelty case work (alive and deceased), teaching, and research.
• Contribute to ongoing changes in forensic protocols and procedures at UF.
• Assist with planning large scale case responses and participate in crime scene investigations.
• Facilitate and assist with the implementation of a veterinary forensic internship/externship program.
• Be available to all ASPCA departments, specifically; ASPCA Animal Hospital, Humane Law Enforcement, Field Investigation and Response, Legal Department, Counseling Services, and Animal Placement, to answer any questions or address any concerns regarding animal abuse.
• Other duties as requested.
• #LI-POST

Qualifications:

ability to work effectively individually and as a team., Accuracy and attention to detail, Board certification in Pathology a plus, Detail oriented; organized and willing to take ownership of project-critical tasks in a fast-paced, dynamic environment, Excellent organizational, written and oral communication skills, Experience in conducting forensic necropsies, Experience in courtroom testimony in animal cruelty cases a plus, Experience in developing education programs and teaching, Experience in working cooperatively with law enforcement or other regulatory agencies, Experience with veterinary issues associated with common cruelty including bloodsports, animal hoarding and intentional abuse, Research experience a plus

Language:

English

Education and Work Experience:

Doctorate: Veterinary Medicine (Required)

Veterinary Practice Experience

Anyway, this post has gotten pretty long and I should really clarify that I really don't know too much about it aside from a little experience working on cruelty cases at a shelter I worked at - these are all just some things I looked up on the fly at a bunch of veterinary forensics websites.

 

[503372]

http://www.ivfsa.org/

As far as I'm aware, it's a growing field that has vast potential. Funding might however remain a constantly changing issue.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

http://www.ivfsa.org/

As far as I'm aware, it's a growing field that has vast potential. Funding might however remain a constantly changing issue.

That's a bit of an overestimation. It's a sub-field that is still growing and taking its baby steps, so it has potential, but I wouldn't call it "vast" by any means considering how inconsequential animal cruelty/hoarding cases are generally considered by law enforcement and the judicial system. And when what you work on isn't considered valuable (especially monetarily) in the large scheme of things much do they think they are going to pay you? Diddly, that's what.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

In 2006-7 I worked with a vet who all the sudden started to see a bunch of tatted kids with dog aggressive pit bulls and similarly muscular breeds. Despite new owner for each dog and the fact that we only saw minor injuries, small lacerations and only occasionally insane things like filed teeth, we suspected dog fighting.

We ended up having to collect pictures and evidence from the next few dogs that came in and sent animal control after them. We heard they found a ring and several, but not all of the dogs we suspected of being involved. Over the next two years there was then a big string of thefts of large breed dogs from the area and info leading to dog fighting arrests were offered increasing rewards... and I moved out of the area.

Anyway, my vet at first had wanted to stay out of "maybe a dog fighting dog" but then we got the bait dog in for a laceration repair on her rump and she got pissed. She had gone to Florida for vet school and taken a course once upon a time for animal forensics and tried to use every trick she remembered. After she turned in those couple of dogs, AC brought her several others that they confiscated to see if the injuries looked like fighting wounds or not and several abuse cases. She ended up with a nice deal with animal control as a major client.

She also said they didn't have anyone certified in animal forensics in the whole county. She was probably the closest thing to it. That normally there wasn't enough work in our area to justify getting such a degree.... but we were in Montana. I'm sure fish and game had enough work state wide and had a veterinarian on staff.

 

[Minnerbelle]

She also said they didn't have anyone certified in animal forensics in the whole county. She was probably the closest thing to it.

I think she's giving herself waaay too much credit there. Shelter veterinarians across the country have been involved in animal forensic work for way longer than since 2006-7.


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[Minnerbelle]

That's a bit of an overestimation. It's a sub-field that is still growing and taking its baby steps, so it has potential, but I wouldn't call it "vast" by any means considering how inconsequential animal cruelty/hoarding cases are generally considered by law enforcement and the judicial system. And when what you work on isn't considered valuable (especially monetarily) in the large scheme of things much do they think they are going to pay you? Diddly, that's what.

Agreed

It will likely remain a niche field where a few motivated individuals pursue it as a serious career whether as a pathologist who branches out, or as a shelter vet type person who goes out for serious training and makes a name for themselves doing it. Places that can hire a full time forensics veterinarian are going to be limited to well funded progressive areas with good humane animal organizations. Places that have these types of services now are places like the ASPCA NY, and ARL in Boston.

Realistically, I think the field is going to expand more in the form of additions of training opportunities as certificate programs, CE, masters programs, or adjuncts to shelter med residencies that mostly shelter vets take part in, since they are the people who are most often involved in cruelty/neglect cases. There's a lot more to the legal and PR aspects of it on top of the actual physical evidence when it comes to these cases when you are the "vet forensics" person.

I personally took a course in vet forensics which was fascinating. And there are things that stuck when it came to dealing with the few cruelty cases I've had to deal with over the past year, where animal control of small towns worked with me instead of getting the larger humane organizations involved.

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[Osudairy]

I think she's giving herself waaay too much credit there. Shelter veterinarians across the country have been involved in animal forensic work for way longer than since 2006-7.


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This. The vet I work for has been involved with forensic work on a few occasions so there are clearly vets out there that have been doing it.

 

[cheathac]

Thanks for all the responses! If I were to go after this field what would be the best way to go? Is this even a smart thing with it being such a niche? I am interested in pathology which is where I initially came across it from researching some things. I just am not sure I want to be chained to a microscope; grant, that is not ALL they do. They do far more with research and teaching. But I think I would miss the whole being able to heal something. But with a forensics vet, they kind of combine things in that I can work with live animals but yet be able to do necropsies. Would shelter medicine be something to look more into for that? Thanks

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think you should stop taking such a narrow view of needing to have an end goal of exactly what type of vet you want to become. I don't think you know enough about anything to make that call, and being so myopic about it is only going to make you not realize opportunities that are open around you. Trust me, "researching things" is not enough. And unless you have very strong convictions about a particular niche field, pursuing that to the end is a very hard road. So wait until you naturally arrive at that conviction (and even then, be ready to have a backup plan)

If forensics interests you, then yeah spend some time at large well funded shelters. I spent a few years volunteering very closely with the vets at a shelter that dealt with cruelty, fighting, and hoarding cases all the time.


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[Osudairy]

Thanks for all the responses! If I were to go after this field what would be the best way to go? Is this even a smart thing with it being such a niche? I am interested in pathology which is where I initially came across it from researching some things. I just am not sure I want to be chained to a microscope; grant, that is not ALL they do. They do far more with research and teaching. But I think I would miss the whole being able to heal something. But with a forensics vet, they kind of combine things in that I can work with live animals but yet be able to do necropsies. Would shelter medicine be something to look more into for that? Thanks

I cannot speak for path. I do know some vets that are into shelter medicine, but they do mention the pay isn't the greatest for what you are doing. IMO, with forensics being such a niche, there would be some limitations. However, if I were you, I would keep an open mind going into veterinary school. Your goals will likely change as you gain experience in different areas. A lot of vet schools (especially OSU) actually discourage the "narrow minded" thinking. The analogy an ADCOM member used was that if you go through vet school with blinders on, then you are sure to miss good opportunities that come your way. That being said, we are not discouraging you from having an interest in forensics. It is just good to keep an open mind until you have learned more to make that decision.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Forensics is gaining a slight hold in formal pathology. We had a small mini-symposium at ACVP last year about forensics. It was pretty brutal and I had enough abuse cases in residency that I didn't want to go. They are ****ing MISERABLE cases to do. Dogfighting, a puppy that was set on fire, another puppy who was kicked against a wall for barking during a football game...**** like that. I have no desire to work in that area, personally. I'm good at separating myself from the personal aspect of my job but cases like that break down that barrier more than I feel comfortable with.

However, I doubt it will ever be a solid subdiscipline in anatomic pathology because there is no way a board-certified pathologist +/- and additional research degree is going to stand for the crappy pay that a vet in forensics would likely have to put up with. We've been through too much to deal with that. Nope.

I do agree with the others, cheatac. Path is awesome, but don't go deciding your career too early. I ended up in path but I came into vet school wanting to do exotics and aquatic med, then purely research, then large animal ambulatory (yup, I feel in love with LA med, even being born a city girl...I took all the food animal track classes as electives and both loved them and excelled at them), and finally settled on path about three-quarters of the way through.

 

[cheathac]

Thanks! It wasn't necessary to be brash or condescending about it, but it's cool.@WhtsThFrequency I see how having an open mind will be better in the long run. Would it be better worded in my PS, to say I'm interested in pathology due to my experiences, but willing to have an open mind while in vet school?

 

[Osudairy]

Thanks! It wasn't necessary to be brash or condescending about it, but it's cool.@WhtsThFrequency I see how having an open mind will be better in the long run. Would it be better worded in my PS, to say I'm interested in pathology due to my experiences, but willing to have an open mind while in vet school?

I honestly do not think it will hurt to include it given your experiences, but I would definitely include that you are keeping an open mind to different specialties/practices.

 

[twelvetigers]

Thanks! It wasn't necessary to be brash or condescending about it, but it's cool.@WhtsThFrequency I see how having an open mind will be better in the long run. Would it be better worded in my PS, to say I'm interested in pathology due to my experiences, but willing to have an open mind while in vet school?

I told them alllllll about how I wanted to do path and research in my PS.

Here I am in general practice. BUT. That doesn't matter. Write what you want in your PS, just make it passionate and well-written. What follows is bound to change some.

 

[LetItSnow]

They are ****ing MISERABLE cases to do. Dogfighting, a puppy that was set on fire, another puppy who was kicked against a wall for barking during a football game...**** like that.

I could do that kind of work if it was actually prosecuted (more often) and the punishment was appropriate. But it usually doesn't go anywhere and when it does the penalty is pathetic. That would burn me out.

If I could go all Judge Dredd on them and set on fire the people who set fire to a puppy ... I'd be all over that job.

Coincidentally. i just talked to some cop yesterday who was calling about a case I saw. The owners were alleging abuse of their animal. He was at least taking the time to follow up and get my opinion about whether the dog's problems could be consistent with that allegation. So I guess that is something.

 

[twelvetigers]

If I could go all Judge Dredd on them and set on fire the people who set fire to a puppy ... I'd be all over that job.

We now call that going "John Wick" on somebody.

 

[Osudairy]

We now call that going "John Wick" on somebody.

Kick a$$ movie!

 

[Enzo07]

Hi everyone! I was wondering if anyone knows of anyone who has gone through either the Master's or Graduate Certificate program at UF for veterinary forensic science? Or do they think it's worth it? Currently weighing out what vet schools I'd like to apply to (I have a strong interest in this field as well as shelter med, so I'm considering UF) and back-up plans in case I don't get in right away. I don't have the highest GPA (~3.44). The program really interests me but since it's so new, I'm not sure how it actually is compared to how it's talked about. Thanks!

 

[doctor-who]

Bumping this thread! Can anyone who has gone through the program with UF talk a little about it, please? Their website is great but doesn't provide much detail about how the courses are actually taught. For example, are there a lot of assignments? Do we need to collaborate with classmates, or is this completely independent? How flexible are due dates for those of us who might be working weird hours? Is this all powerpoint or video or what? Just anything would be nice! Thanks in advance!

 

[that redhead]

Bumping this thread! Can anyone who has gone through the program with UF talk a little about it, please? Their website is great but doesn't provide much detail about how the courses are actually taught. For example, are there a lot of assignments? Do we need to collaborate with classmates, or is this completely independent? How flexible are due dates for those of us who might be working weird hours? Is this all powerpoint or video or what? Just anything would be nice! Thanks in advance!

I’d email the program director and either ask them directly or request contact info for a currently involved person to get some more info.

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Bumping this thread! Can anyone who has gone through the program with UF talk a little about it, please? Their website is great but doesn't provide much detail about how the courses are actually taught. For example, are there a lot of assignments? Do we need to collaborate with classmates, or is this completely independent? How flexible are due dates for those of us who might be working weird hours? Is this all powerpoint or video or what? Just anything would be nice! Thanks in advance!

Hey! I have not been in the program but worked with a pathologist who had interactions with graduates of the program. So I'll pass on what I expect she would say of it - if you are interested in forensics, consider pathology instead. Think of a necropsy-as a veterinarian without pathology experience, you will do gross necropsies. But how can you identify changes in the cellular levels without being a pathologist? You can't! Pathologists make the best forensic veterinarians because they can see more than meets the eyes.

 

[doctor-who]

Hey! I have not been in the program but worked with a pathologist who had interactions with graduates of the program. So I'll pass on what I expect she would say of it - if you are interested in forensics, consider pathology instead. Think of a necropsy-as a veterinarian without pathology experience, you will do gross necropsies. But how can you identify changes in the cellular levels without being a pathologist? You can't! Pathologists make the best forensic veterinarians because they can see more than meets the eyes.

That's a great point! Thanks for the input! I am actually already registered for the vet forensics program, but I'm sure the program + some extra pathology stuff will be kickass too! We'll see how it goes

 

[Minnerbelle]

I didn’t do that particular program, but did take seminars on vet forensics which I suspect covers similar things. It was helpful in identifying what situations/clues warrant reporting, and how to go about reporting. Also knowing the statistics/psyche behind different types of abuse/neglect was interesting. As far as the actual forensics pathology goes, knowing what types of gross lesions are common with what types of nonaccidental injuries, what types of gross lesions are associated with lividity to help differentiate from actual reportable lesions, and how to document to help a court case, was very helpful. Not that this is something I do often. But there are important things about how to take/label pictures, what things should and shouldn’t be in there for presentation to a jury, that’s helpful for a regular vet to know because you just don’t know when you’ll be subpoenaed as a witness (and just by virtue of having a DVM, you could even be considered an expert witness in some cases which is intimidating esp if the other side will do everything to discredit you). Not every cruelty/neglect case is going to have a true necropsy with a pathologist. I was actually involved in a criminal cruelty case, and had put together a report of injuries with diagrams/pictures to be included with my medical notes, and the prosecutor said it was really helpful in forcing the defendant to take a plea (the defense did NOT want those things seen by a jury in our liberal animal loving state).

Super helpful for the gp/er/shelter vets who may encounter these situations. Not necessarily as the sole training for someone who wants to do vet forensics full time. There are a few people who does that who aren’t pathologists (they do gross necropsies, but their strength is more legal/court expert witness/social work/consulting in nature). If that’s what you are interested in, I’d shadow/extern with those people.