veterinary internship & residencies

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hopefulvet21 said:
I was talking with an equine vet today and she agreed that LORs are the most important factor in picking interns. She also said though that it's better if the letter is from someone they know. She said if it's from someone they don't know, they sort of wonder and have to read between the lines. Since I'm going to school in Edinburgh fewer faculty members are going to have connections over here...will I have a chance at an internship I don't have a connection with? I will certainly try to extern at my top choices, but there may not be enough weeks (or travel money) to extern everywhere. Is the "who you know" aspect just important in the equine field? I am really starting to like equine practice, but I definitely don't have 'connections,' making me lean away from it.
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I'm sure they will take into consideration where you went to vet school when they consider if they know them or not... i'm sure there are plenty of very respected and world reknown faculty at Edinburgh, and getting LORs from them may be beneficial... also if ti doesnt work out the first year you can always come back to the states and practice for a few years before applying for an internship... or maybe you'll find you love Europe and don't want ot come back... you never know where you will nbe in 4 years
 
Is there any chance that a foreign veterinary could do an internship program in the USA without passing NAVLE? I intent to do NAVLE in Dec 2010 but I'd like to start the internship before. Is it possible? :xf:
 
Many states have exemptions that allow veterinarians to practice at a veterinary teaching without having a license. So many academic internships (but not all) don't require a license. Most private practice internships do.
 
Bill59 said:
Many states have exemptions that allow veterinarians to practice at a veterinary teaching without having a license. So many academic internships (but not all) don't require a license. Most private practice internships do.
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Thanks, Bill59! 🙂
 
Soo, speaking of class rank, what is considered comepetitive for internships and/or residencies? Top 10%? Top 25%? 33%? 50%? What's acceptable and what's not?? What's reasonably good and what's awesome?
 
I would say top 10% is great. Top 33% puts you in the first cut.
 
bumping this thread b/c it answered a lot of questions I had... and figured I'd throw in one quasi-related question.... say you do want to do cardiology or some other competitive residency post-internship... how would I know which order to rank my potential internships in to maximize my attractiveness to potential future residencies?
Is there a ranking of internships somewhere? Which ones are the best (I'm pretty sure academic always trumps private but beyond that)?
 
Hey, Shanomong, I'm pretty much in the same boat--except my school doesn't even have a single specialist in the field I want to specialize in. Wow, that was really poor grammar. Anyways...

The advice I received from a specialist friend was that for residency, you should have a recommendation from someone who is well-known in that field (e.g., a well-known cardiologist). You are going to get your residency recommendations primarily from your internship (I think--at least in my case, since my school doesn't have my desired specialty) Therefore, it's best to do your internship at places where there are well-known members of your desired specialty in hopes of knocking their socks off during your internship. 🙂

(If you have specialists at your vet school in your area of interest, however, I think a recommendation from them might be just as good, but am not sure, as you're not seeing/managing cases as a doctor during your senior year. Bill would be the best person to ask about using references from your vet school clinicians for a residency program.)

Plan your externships at your desired places of internship so they're familiar with you by the time they review match applications and voila...with a LOT of luck and a LOT of hard work, hopefully you'll match to an internship with the specialist(s) you want and everything will be in place for you to work your butt off and impress the right people. 🙂

Hopefully this is pretty accurate--so far, it's the advice I'm planning to follow as I try to schedule externships.

Good luck!!! :luck: :xf: :luck: :xf:
 
No, there is no accurate, linear list of internships ranking from best to worst. They all have strengths and weaknesses so it depends on what you're looking for. For example, a high emergency caseload is great if you're interested in learning emergency medicine. But it's a disadvantage if you're interested in something like dermatology because all those nights and weekends you spend doing emergency is time you're not spending doing derm.

As for bolstering your residency application, it usually helps to do an internship that has at least 2 boarded specialists in your area of interest ... and -- this is important -- you actually get to work with those specialists. This is the best way to know if that's what you really want to do. It also allows you to get LORs from those specialists.

On the other hand, realize that the purpose of a rotating internship is to get broad experience in all aspects of medicine and surgery. It's not to specialize in one area. That's what a residency is for.
 
If there is any small chance that I might be interested in pursuing an internship and/or residency after graduation, should I be looking at doing research this summer (the summer after 1st year...assuming I make it through...haha)? Or would it be better for me to try and find a job in the hospital? I'd honestly rather get more clinical training because I know I'm not interested in pursuing research as a career post-grad, and I feel like my clinical skills are probably lagging behind some of the folks that worked as techs, etc. But is research now considered a requirement to be competitive?
 
Ben and Me said:
If there is any small chance that I might be interested in pursuing an internship and/or residency after graduation, should I be looking at doing research this summer (the summer after 1st year...assuming I make it through...haha)? Or would it be better for me to try and find a job in the hospital? I'd honestly rather get more clinical training because I know I'm not interested in pursuing research as a career post-grad, and I feel like my clinical skills are probably lagging behind some of the folks that worked as techs, etc. But is research now considered a requirement to be competitive?
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I'm no expert, but I would say now is the time to start diving into the field you think you want to be in. Research was great for getting into vet school, but later on when you're applying for internships they're going to want to know how you are as a clinician and how you will likely be as an intern. And the more connections you can make in the meantime, the better off you are. If you started at the hospital now, then by the time clinical rotations roll around people there will already know your name and face and you won't just be one in the crowd. Or if you know of some places where you might be interested in applying for an internship and it would be feasible for you to work there this summer, I'd see if they're hiring vet students or if you could volunteer. I know VHUP takes volunteers, and the hospital I work in (worked in really... have only picked up one shift so far during the school year and that's not until November) used to hire vet students over the summer... I bet a few places would.

So unless the research is clinical and related to some specialty you might pursue, I don't really see how there would be any benefit. Gaining clinical experience = networking, which is always beneficial IMO 😀
 
Does anyone know what institutions, colleges or clinics does not require NAVLE for international veterinarians to participate of their internship program? I was told that most of institutions listed on VIRMP require NAVLE. Is it true?
Thanks.
 
Shanomong said:
hmm, I thought they listed that stuff on the virmp website but I just checked and don't see it... they do list "...state license required"; so I guess it depends on the states requirements?
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you cannot get any state license without NAVLE
 
Are LA/equine internships generally less competitive or more competitive than SA? It seems there are fewer people interested in LA and equine but also fewer private practices with internships than in SA-ville.
 
eventualeventer said:
Are LA/equine internships generally less competitive or more competitive than SA? It seems there are fewer people interested in LA and equine but also fewer private practices with internships than in SA-ville.
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Strictly equine internships are EXTREMELY competitive, especially at the well known private practices. Food animal or a mixed large animal/equine internship is still competitive but not as bad. Probably because many students going into food animal don't really get any benefit out of doing an internship, so they don't even try to go for one.
 
Private practice internship VS academic internship?

I'm under the impression that you're more likely to get into a residency if you've done an academic internship. Please correct if me if I'm mistaken; I've been told a lot of different things by many different people.

Do I have an equally good shot if I've interned at a place with at least 2 doctors boarded in my specialty?
 
lailanni said:
Private practice internship VS academic internship?

I'm under the impression that you're more likely to get into a residency if you've done an academic internship. Please correct if me if I'm mistaken; I've been told a lot of different things by many different people.

Do I have an equally good shot if I've interned at a place with at least 2 doctors boarded in my specialty?
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I think the private vs academic depends on what residency you want to go into afterwards. I was told that E/CC doesn't care and IM probably doesn't care but might lean towards academic. I was told to look for a minimum of two doctors boarded in my speciality of choice, a boarded surgeon and at least one other boarded doctor (in anything).

I was also told to look for places that had a minimum of 4 interns--so you know the services are used to having interns and you aren't just left in the corner watching since they don't know what to do with you.
 
Shanomong said:
Did you read the article posted above? I think it would answer some of your questions
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I did, but it did not take care of my questions. Thanks though.

I think the private vs academic depends on what residency you want to go into afterwards. I was told that E/CC doesn't care and IM probably doesn't care but might lean towards academic.
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I'm interested in IM-cardio. Looking at VIRMP, I'm finding it odd that the cardio specific internships only have one boarded cardiologist in hospital. Unless there's something I'm not understanding...

Are field specific internships preferred - or am I supposed to be well rounded with a rotating internship?

I should probably just go ask one of our boarded cardios, but it doesn't look like I'm going to have enough free time to get into the teaching hospital anytime soon...
 
lailanni said:
I did, but it did not take care of my questions. Thanks though.



I'm interested in IM-cardio. Looking at VIRMP, I'm finding it odd that the cardio specific internships only have one boarded cardiologist in hospital. Unless there's something I'm not understanding...

Are field specific internships preferred - or am I supposed to be well rounded with a rotating internship?

I should probably just go ask one of our boarded cardios, but it doesn't look like I'm going to have enough free time to get into the teaching hospital anytime soon...
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My understanding is that you do a rotating internship and would then apply for a residency in IM-Cardio. The one year specialty specific internships are generally meant for people that have completed a rotating internship and didn't match into a residency. Why not e-mail one of your boarded cardio people?
 
Angelo84 said:
My understanding is that you do a rotating internship and would then apply for a residency in IM-Cardio. The one year specialty specific internships are generally meant for people that have completed a rotating internship and didn't match into a residency. Why not e-mail one of your boarded cardio people?
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Ah, thank you. That makes sense. When I talk to one of the boarded cardios I'll post back if I find out anything we haven't discussed already. 🙂
 
GoldensForever said:
It does depend on the internship/residency. Academic internships will probably have a cutoff around 3.0, but have >3.5 to be competitive. Some places (CSU, NCSU) don't really consider you seriously unless you interview.

Residencies seem to be a little more lenient since they want someone who is easy to get along with and trainable, and it's easier to determine that after an internship (or 2). But I was once told that I needed >3.5 GPA to be considered for a surgery residency, for what it's worth.

For zoo med residencies, an internship is helpful but not required. I think you can have 3-5 years zoo experience instead. However, most zoo residents I know did a small animal rotating internship, and then worked or did other specialty internships before being considered. Zoo is very competitive and you need a HUGE breadth of experience with all kinds of species, not just a couple. Publications help too since you need at least 5 to sit for boards.
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Hi! What if you don't have the time within your busy clinic schedule to go to CSU/NCSU....should I try to do a phone interview?
 
HotLA said:
Hi! What if you don't have the time within your busy clinic schedule to go to CSU/NCSU....should I try to do a phone interview?
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Yes, if the program description doesn't provide that information, I would contact the program to see if that's an option.
 
So does anybody have any input on how competitive are the medical oncology residency programs!? After finishing my second year, I`m pretty sure this is what I want to go for! Anybody out there has any idea!?😕
 
I think oncology residencies are fairly competitive right now. I can't cite any statistics but there aren't a lot of programs. If your school has oncologists/oncology residents, check with them and they should be able to help.
 
Are you expected to go to three different places when trying to do a internship and residency, as in one school for your DVM, one for your internship, and one for your residency? Or can you go to two different places?
 
jesskb said:
Are you expected to go to three different places when trying to do a internship and residency, as in one school for your DVM, one for your internship, and one for your residency? Or can you go to two different places?
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It depends on the institution/department/program. Some schools absolutely do not take their own students as interns, some schools don't like to keep their interns as residents. Some schools like to keep their students as interns and some schools like to keep interns as residents. It just depends. K-State doesn't like to keep their own students as interns but has a fair amount of former students come back to do residencies after going elsewhere for their internship.

For me personally, I'd like to get exposed to as many different ways of doing things as possible, so I'm more than happy to be at three different places for school/internship/*knock on wood* residency. 🙂
 
How much weight do your pre-vet school experiences have when it comes to applying for residencies? Will my years of working with wildlife prior to vet school help to obtain a wildlife residency?
 
Daktari Tumbili said:
How much weight do your pre-vet school experiences have when it comes to applying for residencies? Will my years of working with wildlife prior to vet school help to obtain a wildlife residency?
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Not a whole lot.....in my experience, they pay a lot more attention to your performance in vet school (since you're in the pressure cooker) and your externships and the like.

Pre-veterinary experience MAY help some....but less weight is given to it. For example, I worked for years for the Navy in biochem research during college, and got publications out of it, so obviously I was going to put that. But I wouldn't put much else unless I really got something VERY specific to my residency choice out of it.

Eg, say you are applying to a cardio residency, and you put down you shadowed a cardiologist for a year during undergrad - they probably aren't going to care very much, although you can put it. But if you were a technician in a cardio lab or center for a few years and got experience with lots of techniques during undergrad, sure.

BTW: Wildlife and zoo internships/residencies are EXTREMELY competitive. I'm just warning you ahead of time. Be prepared to bust your butt in terms of networking (knowing people in high places is essential in that field) and out-of-school experiences.
 
Has anyone ever looked into what happens if you go out in private practice for a while and then come back and apply for internships? Do they factor in your grades as heavily anymore? Or is it more LORs at this point?
 
ovc2012 said:
Has anyone ever looked into what happens if you go out in private practice for a while and then come back and apply for internships? Do they factor in your grades as heavily anymore? Or is it more LORs at this point?
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from the vets i've talked to, its pretty rare for someone to go into practice and then do an internship manily because of the lifestyle and salary differences. also, you can usually apply for a residency after so many years in practice.

as for your question, it probably depends greatly on the program and how they typically select applicants. i imagine that if a program is really competitive and they use grades as big fator, they're still going to look at grades.
 
We've had a number of interns that have been in practice for a while, usually at least one in each intern class. Academics are still important, but in those cases LORs usually carry more weight compared to new grads.

Having a few years of experience after vet school is generally an advantage. However, at some point it starts to become a disadvantage because of concerns over "trainability". Precisely where that point is is hard to say, but beyond 5-10 years it usually starts to be a factor.
 
Bill 59, that is the purist academic snobbery that has ruined the veterinary profession in its ability to produce competent graduates. So I guess the academic mantra that a DVM degree opens up so many doors from clinical practice to research to public health is bull****. Only if you have the proper letters from the right group are you allowed to learn at the veterinary college anymore and not if you might have been sullied by the world outside academia. That system is a closed and elitist system. I know of an ABVP canine and feline diplomate who is at least the equal of any internal medicine specialist trained through a residency. Some internists I have met have little ability in bedside manner or practicality. Let us not forget those veterinarians who seem to double and even triple board in clinical specialties because they just can not make up their mind. At Georgia in the early 1990s we had a surgery resident who after finishing decided he wanted to be a neurologist and took on another residency. Maybe someone else who really would have made a great neurologist should have gotten that chance. And do not forget that the clinical specialties started with veterinarians who came from general practice with a strong desire to improve themselves and master a particular area of veterinary medicine. Thank god at Georgia in the early 90s we had John Oliver (neurologist), Larry Cornelius (internist) and Clarence Rawlings (surgeon) who had experienced general small animal practice and could help students realize what they had to know to be good practitioners day to day and what "zebra" cases they needed to refer quickly before they became a disaster. I think that maybe taking an entrance exam testing general medical knowledge of a class of practice like small animal, equine or food animal should be the first hurdle to winning a residency slot. Maybe the residencies should go to those who are excellent at the basics and then relate their speciality across discipline lines to give a new twist on the current "One Medicine" lines. Academia has contributed significantly to the decline of the value of the DVM degree.
 
Hi Guys,

I've loved this discussion so far and found it very helpful. I hate to get shallow with this, but I want to ask questions about the financial benefit of specializing.
(We do all have loads of loans to pay off don't we?).

I read on the internet that vets (non-specialized) average 40k/ year out of school. After about five years experience, they tend to make 100k. (This is all based on hearsay, so correct me if I'm wrong).

Specialists will make 25k/ year as an intern/resident and then over 150k/ year once they are board certified.

To me, I think the financial victory goes to specialists.

Any thoughts?
 
TheVetVetVetVet said:
I read on the internet that vets (non-specialized) average 40k/ year out of school.
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According to the AVMA, starting salaries are closer to $70K for those new grads who go directly into a "real job". The $48K figure includes vets who enter post grad training, such as internships (~$25K/year) and residencies/postdoctoral training ($30-40K/year).

TheVetVetVetVet said:
Specialists will make 25k/ year as an intern/resident and then over 150k/ year once they are board certified. To me, I think the financial victory goes to specialists.
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The specialists only win out if they can find a job when they are done with their training. The market sucks right now, even for previously high-demand fields such as lab animal and pathology.
 
SilverSpyderGT said:
The specialists only win out if they can find a job when they are done with their training. The market sucks right now, even for previously high-demand fields such as lab animal and pathology.
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Indeed.....

(Pathology has never been "high demand" really - at least as far as I can tell compared to surgery, internal medicine, etc...but now it's really bad. One of my resident-mates is trying to get a job - he may have to move to Canada. Lab animal is slightly better, but still not nearly as good as it used to be).
 
TheVetVetVetVet said:
Specialists will make 25k/ year as an intern/resident and then over 150k/ year once they are board certified.
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Um.....no. We have board certified surgeons, pathologists, radiologists, etc that don't make much over 90K at vet schools, which is where a huge number of them go since they are big referral centers. Private emergency centers or labs might pay slightly better, but >150 is the exception, by NO means the rule. The only way I (as a boarded pathologists in 2 more years, hopefully) could make 150K would be to sell my soul to Big Pharma and be a glass pusher looking at rat stomachs for tox studies all day.
 
More clinical specialists are going into private practice than academics these days. There are more jobs and the pay is better. Our surgery, onco, neuro, ophtho and radiology residents are getting around 100K for academics and 150K for private. And private practice usually gets better raises each year.

The precise numbers are going to vary, but most specialists are going to outearn GPs over their career, even counting the 4 years+ extra training.

Now that doesn't count owners. GP owners can make a lot ... or almost nothing. And not every specialty is well paid. For example, zoo and behavior can be less. At some point I really wonder if internal medicine is going to get saturated. And right now nobody is hiring equine surgeons until the economy improves.
 
chris03333 said:
No it's not!
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Sorry chris - I didn't mean better overall, I just meant still god-awful, but perhaps slightly better than pathology (I am just assuming based on my albeit limited knowledge of the lab animal job market. I know it sucks, I know it's bad, but I wasn't sure if it was as bad as us? we may both be in an equivalent boat)...all I know is the number of jobs for entry level pathologists is awful...as far as I have gathered from perusing ACVP and AAVLD career boards, there are nowhere near enough opportunities, hence why people get shoved into PhDs in addition to DVM and residency in hopes to have a better chance. Many pathology programs even require it now (which I call BS on myself, but that's another story).
 
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