Virginia Mason .......... advice?

[katinka]

I just finished my interviews and my head is spinning trying to figure out my ROL.
I really liked VM ....... the residents were of the happiest that I met and it seemed like a really good program that I could fit in with. But I'm trying to figure out if there is any advantage to going to a university "academic" program.
Anyone have any thoughts on VM versus OHSU or UW? It seems that VM will offer excellent training for private practice, but will I be at a disadvantage if I decide to go into academics after training?
Curious to hear your opinions.......

Thanks!

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[DrDre']

Feel free to ignore all 3 on your ROL! 🙂

Seriously, you will hear varying responses to your question, depending on how academic or conservative the respondent....

 

[DrDre']

I think the most "conservative" or staunchly academic person would say UW > OSHU > VM. I do not necessarily endorse this statement but I have heard it many times. This is a current view today, not forecasting the future.

I am biased as they are all 3 on my ROL.

 

[VentdependenT]

VM is plenty academic and well respected as far as an anesthesiology program is concerned IMHO. If you feel you would fit in there then rank it number one. Its a great program. It\ believe it holds up equally with a top notch university program.

Your fellow residents will be your lifeblood that keeps you going when your gettin your butt kicked. Choose wisely.

 

[ear-ache]

I think the most "conservative" or staunchly academic person would say UW > OSHU > VM. I do not necessarily endorse this statement but I have heard it many times. This is a current view today, not forecasting the future.

I am biased as they are all 3 on my ROL.

My anesthesia advisor also echoed Dre's academic ranking of the three.

I too interviewed at VM, UW, and OHSU and loved all three of them. 😍 Although each has its own personality and different strengths, I don't see why you wouldn’t be able to pursue academics if you went to VM. There are research opportunities at VM, although admittedly more clinical and not as numerous as UW or OHSU, but that still should not keep you from academia (especially if you pursue fellowship training).

Of course, I'm just a medical student talking out my arse.

 

[toughlife]

I think the most "conservative" or staunchly academic person would say UW > OSHU > VM. I do not necessarily endorse this statement but I have heard it many times. This is a current view today, not forecasting the future.

I am biased as they are all 3 on my ROL.

I think in terms of research they are correct. Their (UW) website reads:

"The UW School of Medicine is the nation’s top public medical school in federal research funding, and the second overall, after Harvard Medical School"
So if research/academics is your gig, then you can't go wrong with the huskies.

 

[starsop93]

I did my residency at UW and rotated for 2 months at VM. (I don't know much about OHSU, but I've heard good things and Portland is great.)

Both are top notch programs with respected faculty and good facilities, but the programs are very different after that. UW's biggest weaknesses are VM's greatest strengths and vice-versa. UW and VM were historically the biggest promoters of regional anesthesia and all but invented pain management. VM has continued the tradition and remain one of the best places in the country for regional anestheisa. Unfortunately UW's regional and pain programs had weakened by the time I was there and were the biggest weaknesses of the residency program. Things had been put into place to reverse this, but I doubt they will come close to VM anytime soon.

UW's biggest strength is the high acuity of the patients and the many varied sites and hospitals one can rotate through. (i.e. I got to go to VM!) VM residents do rotate to Children's and Harborview for peds, ICU, and Trauma, but overall spend the vast majority of their residency on 2 floors of VMMC which is a pretty small community. Their patients for the most part are older and healthier (more of a private practice population), and their anesthetic management is increasingly being standardized; this makes it a model for safety and accountability, but does tie your hands a bit with management. The surgeons and surgical residents at both places are good, but VM has much quicker and much more pleasant surgeons than UW for the most part. VM's faculty are almost entirely US trained, which is unusual for most residency programs. This is not the case at UW, but many of the best attendings at UW are the Brits, Kiwis, Aussies, South Africans, and Germans that come for a year or for good.

As far as academics go, VM faculty publish probably even more than UW faculty (but they practically have their own journal with "Reg Anesth and Pain Management") and most of their publications are on regional anesthesia. UW does more bench work/basic science, but most residents don't get involved with it unless they take the research path in their last year.

As for other things, VM gets free parking, free food, and has better hours. The residents probably are happier, are well-trained, and they get good jobs. UW has very few perks, but you will be comfortable with any zebras handed to you in the future and are desired in private practice or fellowship. Overall, I'm glad I went to UW of the two, but I would have liked VM too.

 

[DrDre']

Excellent, insightful, balanced post. Agree with all of above, VM is academic as you want it to be.

I did my residency at UW and rotated for 2 months at VM. (I don't know much about OHSU, but I've heard good things and Portland is great.)

Both are top notch programs with respected faculty and good facilities, but the programs are very different after that. UW's biggest weaknesses are VM's greatest strengths and vice-versa. UW and VM were historically the biggest promoters of regional anesthesia and all but invented pain management. VM has continued the tradition and remain one of the best places in the country for regional anestheisa. Unfortunately UW's regional and pain programs had weakened by the time I was there and were the biggest weaknesses of the residency program. Things had been put into place to reverse this, but I doubt they will come close to VM anytime soon.

UW's biggest strength is the high acuity of the patients and the many varied sites and hospitals one can rotate through. (i.e. I got to go to VM!) VM residents do rotate to Children's and Harborview for peds, ICU, and Trauma, but overall spend the vast majority of their residency on 2 floors of VMMC which is a pretty small community. Their patients for the most part are older and healthier (more of a private practice population), and their anesthetic management is increasingly being standardized; this makes it a model for safety and accountability, but does tie your hands a bit with management. The surgeons and surgical residents at both places are good, but VM has much quicker and much more pleasant surgeons than UW for the most part. VM's faculty are almost entirely US trained, which is unusual for most residency programs. This is not the case at UW, but many of the best attendings at UW are the Brits, Kiwis, Aussies, South Africans, and Germans that come for a year or for good.

As far as academics go, VM faculty publish probably even more than UW faculty (but they practically have their own journal with "Reg Anesth and Pain Management") and most of their publications are on regional anesthesia. UW does more bench work/basic science, but most residents don't get involved with it unless they take the research path in their last year.

As for other things, VM gets free parking, free food, and has better hours. The residents probably are happier, are well-trained, and they get good jobs. UW has very few perks, but you will be comfortable with any zebras handed to you in the future and are desired in private practice or fellowship. Overall, I'm glad I went to UW of the two, but I would have liked VM too.

 

[ear-ache]

I did my residency at UW and rotated for 2 months at VM. (I don't know much about OHSU, but I've heard good things and Portland is great.)

Both are top notch programs with respected faculty and good facilities, but the programs are very different after that. UW's biggest weaknesses are VM's greatest strengths and vice-versa. UW and VM were historically the biggest promoters of regional anesthesia and all but invented pain management. VM has continued the tradition and remain one of the best places in the country for regional anestheisa. Unfortunately UW's regional and pain programs had weakened by the time I was there and were the biggest weaknesses of the residency program. Things had been put into place to reverse this, but I doubt they will come close to VM anytime soon.

UW's biggest strength is the high acuity of the patients and the many varied sites and hospitals one can rotate through. (i.e. I got to go to VM!) VM residents do rotate to Children's and Harborview for peds, ICU, and Trauma, but overall spend the vast majority of their residency on 2 floors of VMMC which is a pretty small community. Their patients for the most part are older and healthier (more of a private practice population), and their anesthetic management is increasingly being standardized; this makes it a model for safety and accountability, but does tie your hands a bit with management. The surgeons and surgical residents at both places are good, but VM has much quicker and much more pleasant surgeons than UW for the most part. VM's faculty are almost entirely US trained, which is unusual for most residency programs. This is not the case at UW, but many of the best attendings at UW are the Brits, Kiwis, Aussies, South Africans, and Germans that come for a year or for good.

As far as academics go, VM faculty publish probably even more than UW faculty (but they practically have their own journal with "Reg Anesth and Pain Management") and most of their publications are on regional anesthesia. UW does more bench work/basic science, but most residents don't get involved with it unless they take the research path in their last year.

As for other things, VM gets free parking, free food, and has better hours. The residents probably are happier, are well-trained, and they get good jobs. UW has very few perks, but you will be comfortable with any zebras handed to you in the future and are desired in private practice or fellowship. Overall, I'm glad I went to UW of the two, but I would have liked VM too.

👍

 

[PiPhiDoc]

I am a current UW resident, so I have a few things to add about our program as far as the perks/hours go...

- We now get 2 free meals during the week on-call at UW and 3 on the weekends.
- Our average hours (as logged in by our current residents) are 55-60
- We get 2-3 weekends off per month
- $1000 per year for academic fund, plus extra funds if you go to present

In addition, having just gotten a job, I can tell you that our residents are thought of as extremely competent and competative looking for a private practice job, and you will be able to pretty much walk into any fellowship you want.

I couldn't be happier that I choose UW...but again, I think it all comes down to personal preference and "gut feeling"....I have made many friends with the VM residents in my year during their rotations at Children's and Harborview and I have nothing but good things to say about them.

 

[katinka]

👍 thanks for the awesome posts guys. I guess I still have some more to think about, but it seems like no matter what, I can't go wrong with any of these three programs.

 

[DoubleD]

I think the most "conservative" or staunchly academic person would say UW > OSHU > VM. I do not necessarily endorse this statement but I have heard it many times. This is a current view today, not forecasting the future.

I am biased as they are all 3 on my ROL.

I'm not sure that all academics would rank them in that order. If you look at NIH funding for the last year reported (2005), OHSU had $4,575,988, UW had $2,540,324, and VM doesn't have any.... OHSU was the #3 top funded department of anesthesia behind UCSF and Wash. U.

That being said, I think it's true that you can do a residency at VM and be in academics in the future. Most academic programs are just looking for someone who will work hard for less money....

 

[DrDre']

First,
my post was from last year. Funding cont to increase at a phenomenal rate at OHSU.


Second, and moreso, you can not equate completely "academic" with funding. My "ranking" was my understanding of how staunch academicians would rank these programs' academic reputations. Reputation changes slowly in both directions.

All the best, dre' day today

Off the wards!

I'm not sure that all academics would rank them in that order. If you look at NIH funding for the last year reported (2005), OHSU had $4,575,988, UW had $2,540,324, and VM doesn't have any.... OHSU was the #3 top funded department of anesthesia behind UCSF and Wash. U.

That being said, I think it's true that you can do a residency at VM and be in academics in the future. Most academic programs are just looking for someone who will work hard for less money....

 

[bubalus]

I think an important thing to consider, if you want to do academics, is what type of academics you want to do.

Do you want to be a bench scientist? If so, then you need to go to the place with the best science and best infrastructure to support your science.

Do you want to be clinical faculty and work with residents? If so, then you need to be a good anesthesiologist and show interest and skill in teaching. You can do that at many programs. Whether your program is #1 or #5 or whatever in NIH funding isn't going to have as big of an impact if this is the type of career you want. And, as long as private practice is more lucrative than academics, going into academics won't be all that difficult. It may take a little time if you want to get to a specific institution, but I don't see any of these programs being an impediment to a clinical academic career.

Do you want to do clinical science? If so, you need to see which program will foster and support that with opportunities, funding, infrastructure, and mentoring in clinical research.

In general, academic institutions prefer someone who is fellowship trained, and where you do your fellowship will matter more than where you did your residency. Your residency can, however, open doors to a fellowship. Some fellowships will be more competitive than others, just like some residency programs are more competitive than others. But you don't need to go to MGH to get a cardiac fellowship at Duke. Again, I see the lucrative world of private practice making fellowships easier to get into.

 

[Mapleson D]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread from a year ago! 👍 Very helpful with excellent, insightful posts.

As for me, I felt like OHSU combined the strengths (and ditched the respective weaknesses) of both UW and VM in one program! I really fell in love with the place 😍

 

[Mapleson D]

(Katinka, you still around? Where'd you end up?)

 

[Huskergrl]

I didn't interview at VM, but have heard through the grapevine that UVM has lost a lot of its top attendings that made it the famous regional place that it is today. Not to say it wouldn't be a great place to train, but keep that in mind.

As far as UW vs. OHSU, I've been wondering about the differences myself. I get a better feeling from OHSU, and I have heard better things about how the residents are treated by attendings, but OHSU doesn't offer the trauma that UW has to offer. Also, UW still hasn't officially announced a chair, which makes me nervous. & on that note, OHSU has a spectacular chair who came from Hopkins a few years ago & brought many of his clinical & research staff with him. They get a lot of NIH money, but the department is well-funded in general. I did a rotation there & only met one unhappy resident . . . that resident seemed to be unhappy about almost everything. Basically, I couldn't find anything wrong with OHSU while I was there & I was trying really hard to find something.

Those are just my 2 cents. I would love to hear more about UW. It was hard for me to get a feel for it on my interview day, and am having a difficult time with where to rank them.

 

[anestheticman]

Hi, I'm a third year and planning to possibly do externships at all three of these programs(UW, VM, and OHSU) but I'm not sure how I can find out how competitive I would be for any one of them and if its therefore "worth" spending 4 weeks there. I got a 215 on my Step 1 and I'm otherwise I pretty average student with no honors, etc. but I am highly motivated to do well during the rest of 3rd year and to do well on externships etc.