Visionworks Experiences and Working There

[Mixin Marc]

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I have been reading the previous thread titled "In Defense of Visionworks", and from my personal experience working there, all the statements made were true. I only worked there as an O.D. for 2 months before quitting, but they really did care more about the bottom line than patient care. They were against allowing O.D.'s have a set hour lunch, and always wanted O.D.'s to rush. I became close friends with some of the general managers and 3rd key managers who had to attend corporate meetings, and they told me the statements they made about O.D.'s during those meetings. They would tell staff to never treat the O.D.'s nice because they paid them "way too much", and to always take walk-ins even if the O.D. is tired beyond belief. I couldn't stand working there for more than 2 months.

 

[IndianaOD]

I have been reading the previous thread titled "In Defense of Visionworks", and from my personal experience working there, all the statements made were true. I only worked there as an O.D. for 2 months before quitting, but they really did care more about the bottom line than patient care. They were against allowing O.D.'s have a set hour lunch, and always wanted O.D.'s to rush. I became close friends with some of the general managers and 3rd key managers who had to attend corporate meetings, and they told me the statements they made about O.D.'s during those meetings. They would tell staff to never treat the O.D.'s nice because they paid them "way too much", and to always take walk-ins even if the O.D. is tired beyond belief. I couldn't stand working there for more than 2 months.

I wish we could sticky that closed thread.

 

[ibalz]

That would be very informative. I agree it should be a sticky, even if it was a troll.

 

[Mixin Marc]

I wish we could sticky that closed thread.

I agree with you. I also know for a fact that the original poster was an employee. I'm guessing one of the SVP's read what he was writing and asked to get the thread closed. I think there are enough of us here who can also verify every single word that employee said.

 

[socal2014]

I have been reading the previous thread titled "In Defense of Visionworks", and from my personal experience working there, all the statements made were true. I only worked there as an O.D. for 2 months before quitting, but they really did care more about the bottom line than patient care. They were against allowing O.D.'s have a set hour lunch, and always wanted O.D.'s to rush. I became close friends with some of the general managers and 3rd key managers who had to attend corporate meetings, and they told me the statements they made about O.D.'s during those meetings. They would tell staff to never treat the O.D.'s nice because they paid them "way too much", and to always take walk-ins even if the O.D. is tired beyond belief. I couldn't stand working there for more than 2 months.

What do you mean by telling the staff not to treat OD's nicely? Can you provide some examples?

 

[Mixin Marc]

What do you mean by telling the staff not to treat OD's nicely? Can you provide some examples?

First off, they were not giving OD's a lunch. They call it "resource scheduling", meaning that the patients need to all be taken before the OD can leave for a break. Even though the OD's usually work 10 hour days, they do not care, and care more about the money they are making. They also tell the staff to never care how backed up the OD is when they are scheduling or taking walk-ins, because the OD gets paid too much. I wasn't able to stand working there, and ended up quitting.

 

[Mixin Marc]

Visionworks 06-15-2010 07:55 AM
In Defense of Visionworks

Visionworks
I would like to defend Visionworks from all the harsh criticism.

We support the community by allowing those less fortunate to acquire eyewear at a fraction of the cost that most independent eye doctors charge.

We provide hour eye glass service, and provide outstanding customer service at all times, and at early and late hours.

In terms of the complaints that former eye docs were complaining about, here is what I would like to say:
First and foremost, we pay a very high salary, and for you to earn that salary you should be eager and willing to handle 40-50 patients on a Saturday. I personally do not see what the big deal is, and I really do not think it is all that hard to accomplish. You have an OD tech, and staff that will support you. Plus, seeing more patients allows the day to go by faster. Why would you want to sit in an exam room doing nothing? It's always better to stay busy.
We also provide insurance, malpractice coverage, sick days, vacation days, which all add up to about 30,000.00 in value for our docs.

Remember that it's not easy to run an optical business, but we do take care of our docs in our high paying salary for them. Docs should appreciate what we do for them, as it's really not that hard to examine eyes. We pay well, and we offer great benefits.

quoting the other poster

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9807418)
Visionworks
I would like to defend Visionworks from all the harsh criticism.

We support the community by allowing those less fortunate to acquire eyewear at a fraction of the cost that most independent eye doctors charge.

We provide hour eye glass service, and provide outstanding customer service at all times, and at early and late hours.

In terms of the complaints that former eye docs were complaining about, here is what I would like to say:
First and foremost, we pay a very high salary, and for you to earn that salary you should be eager and willing to handle 40-50 patients on a Saturday. I personally do not see what the big deal is, and I really do not think it is all that hard to accomplish. You have an OD tech, and staff that will support you. Plus, seeing more patients allows the day to go by faster. Why would you want to sit in an exam room doing nothing? It's always better to stay busy.
We also provide insurance, malpractice coverage, sick days, vacation days, which all add up to about 30,000.00 in value for our docs.

Remember that it's not easy to run an optical business, but we do take care of our docs in our high paying salary for them. Docs should appreciate what we do for them, as it's really not that hard to examine eyes. We pay well, and we offer great benefits.
------------------------------
ksidoc
I am sure that you are basing your knowledge on the difficulty examining the eyes on your extensive clinical training. Of course, it is all about the salary, has nothing to do with the amount of time the DOCTOR is able to spend with the patient and actually check the health of the visual system. Not to mention the bait and switch advertising that Vision works promotes. VERY few people get out of there with the 2 pair for $79. I have a friend that has an office next to a Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart advertises complet pair for $35, however his vision center manager showed him and e-mail from the corporate office that stresses mimimum sale goal is $250; Visionworks is in the same boat. You are not fooling anyone.👎

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 08:56 AM
Quote:
Meibomian SxN
From what I read about the complaints, it seemed like it was a 90% complaint & turnover rate. Maybe the problem is the company choosing bad managers who bump heads with the doctors a little too much?

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 10:53 AM
Quote:
Visionworks
I manage and direct an entire territory, and so far the only docs who leave are the ones who demand too much. They expect that they can sit and do nothing all day, when I believe it's a fair trade for the docs to see 40 or so patients a day in return for their high salary. We try to always keep a full book, and if a store shows that there is a chance of a no show, then we ask staff to double book. I see no problem with that at all.

In general, our managers are very well trained, and follow what we tell them to do. I feel sometimes the docs and managers do not get along because the docs feel they are entitled to a lunch at a set time. This doesn't work, and we let the docs know this before they sign up. Patients come first, not a lunch period. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

We had one doc in Bolingbrook who just couldn't handle seeing her quota of patients, and ended up leaving. She was an example of someone who couldn't handle this field.

I still think in general, that we provide our docs ample money in return for their work, which is not that hard in my opinion.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808045)
Visionworks
I still think in general, that we provide our docs ample money in return for their work, which is not that hard in my opinion.

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PBEA
I've never even heard of "visionworks" but if its like other corporate chains then the "work" being done is little more then a refraction. It usually isn't eyecare, just eyeglass care. It is almost the same thing as optician "sight-testing nonsense. I would also say that these places are duping their customers into thinking they are getting a proper examination of the eye, when in fact they what they are really getting is just a refraction.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808045)
Visionworks
I manage and direct an entire territory, and so far the only docs who leave are the ones who demand too much. They expect that they can sit and do nothing all day, when I believe it's a fair trade for the docs to see 40 or so patients a day in return for their high salary. We try to always keep a full book, and if a store shows that there is a chance of a no show, then we ask staff to double book. I see no problem with that at all.

In general, our managers are very well trained, and follow what we tell them to do. I feel sometimes the docs and managers do not get along because the docs feel they are entitled to a lunch at a set time. This doesn't work, and we let the docs know this before they sign up. Patients come first, not a lunch period. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

We had one doc in Bolingbrook who just couldn't handle seeing her quota of patients, and ended up leaving. She was an example of someone who couldn't handle this field.

I still think in general, that we provide our docs ample money in return for their work, which is not that hard in my opinion.


----------------------------
blazenmadison
You have to be a joke. What Visionworks representative would post something so demeaning for his company and future OD employees. At least sugarcoat it.

As an employee you should be entailed to a LUNCH period at a set time. You clock in...you clock out.
If the owner is the doctor, then lunch is secondary because every patient IS money for lunch. If the doctor didn't want a lunch period then he/she would be an owner. Being an optometrist employee (just like pharmacist at Walgreens) should have regular hours, set schedule, and reasonable expectations. Double booking a 10 min exam slot with two patients is unreasonable. What if both patients show up? Who do you see? What about the patient at the next 10 min slot? What if the patient has an IOP of 50? You allude to being altruistic by providing a service for those less fortunate, but you compromise their care.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808198)
PBEA
I've never even heard of "visionworks" but if its like other corporate chains then the "work" being done is little more then a refraction. It usually isn't eyecare, just eyeglass care. It is almost the same thing as optician "sight-testing nonsense. I would also say that these places are duping their customers into thinking they are getting a proper examination of the eye, when in fact they what they are really getting is just a refraction.
----------------------
Visionworks
Visionworks is currently reaching to overtake the optical market in the USA. Luxottica is still number one, but we hope to reach their status in the near future. We've done studies, and found that most of our customers do not wish to have a long eye exam, and anything longer than 5 minutes is usually too long. People just don't wish to sit through a long exam anymore.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808216)
blazenmadison
You have to be a joke. What Visionworks representative would post something so demeaning for his company and future OD employees. At least sugarcoat it.

As an employee you should be entailed to a LUNCH period at a set time. You clock in...you clock out.
If the owner is the doctor, then lunch is secondary because every patient IS money for lunch. If the doctor didn't want a lunch period then he/she would be an owner. Being an optometrist employee (just like pharmacist at Walgreens) should have regular hours, set schedule, and reasonable expectations. Double booking a 10 min exam slot with two patients is unreasonable. What if both patients show up? Who do you see? What about the patient at the next 10 min slot? What if the patient has an IOP of 50? You allude to being altruistic by providing a service for those less fortunate, but you compromise their care.
------------------------------------
Visionworks
Doctors do not clock in and out. Setting a regular lunch period would sound ideal, but in fact it is not. We need to work around when the patient flow is slow. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. If there are many patients who want to come in between 12 and 3, then the doc should take lunch after 3. The doc's job is to try and make sure we're profitable so we can pay him or her their high salary. Double booking also makes sense, since it allows us to maintain a full book.
Have you ever run a practice before? Usually only 80% of the patients show up. Therefore, based on statistics, you can see that double booking only helps to fill those empty slots. There might, on occasion, be a day when all patients show, but how rare is that? Very! I still think you guys have the easiest and best job out there. It's very simple, and you get paid very well at Visionworks. Remember that, if you're looking for a new job, we do pay the best salary out there.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808270)
Visionworks
Visionworks is currently reaching to overtake the optical market in the USA. Luxottica is still number one, but we hope to reach their status in the near future. We've done studies, and found that most of our customers do not wish to have a long eye exam, and anything longer than 5 minutes is usually too long. People just don't wish to sit through a long exam anymore.
----------------------
achirum
I see Visionworks specializes in comedy as well.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 12:17 PM
PBEA
take notice future ODs, this is the confusion and market pressure you will experience upon graduating and begin looking for a job. The shameless comments by the above layperson will undermine your liability, compromise your patients health, and leave you as only a jaded remnant of your former self. Whoring yourself out for 5min refractions, at some corporate/optician controlled venture is all about the buck. The above shouldn't even be an option for patients, but it is, and it is primarily away for them to skirt proper exam for legitimate compliants. Cheaper isn't better, visionworks, and in this case it IS worse.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808292)
Visionworks
Doctors do not clock in and out. Setting a regular lunch period would sound ideal, but in fact it is not. We need to work around when the patient flow is slow. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. If there are many patients who want to come in between 12 and 3, then the doc should take lunch after 3. The doc's job is to try and make sure we're profitable so we can pay him or her their high salary. Double booking also makes sense, since it allows us to maintain a full book.
Have you ever run a practice before? Usually only 80% of the patients show up. Therefore, based on statistics, you can see that double booking only helps to fill those empty slots. There might, on occasion, be a day when all patients show, but how rare is that? Very! I still think you guys have the easiest and best job out there. It's very simple, and you get paid very well at Visionworks. Remember that, if you're looking for a new job, we do pay the best salary out there.
---------------------------------
Mewcakes
Dear Mr. Visionworks,

When you're a doctor who has to put through 40-50 patients in an 8-hr day, THEN you can ask us what the big deal is. You, as a manager, DO get to sit on your butt all day and "manage" (which apparently consists of posting on SDN), so of course it's no big deal to you. Who cares if the doctors get burnt out, as long as you get your numbers, right? A full book may mean optimum sales, but your poor doctors are putting their noses to the grindstone trying to get all those double-booked patients through so no one gets frustrated for waiting. Is it the doctor's fault for overbooking? No. Do they have to pay for that oversight? Yes. Does anyone, including the regional management, recognize them for their hard work? Probably not.

What if you had to put through 40-50 troubleshoots/returns in an 8 hr day? And YOU had to do every single one of them? And as each 5 mins pass, customers get more frustrated because you're taking too long? How now brown cow?

I'm sorry, but you don't belong on here. Does corporate know you're on here posting? Do they approve of what you're writing? You don't see Luxottica on here posting stuff like that. I don't like them any more than visionworks, but maybe that's why they're still kicking your butt. Your company may pay well, but they forget that their doctors are people too. We don't want you here and you're just further sullying the name of visionworks by being here. Go home.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808453)
Mewcakes
Dear Mr. Visionworks,

When you're a doctor who has to put through 40-50 patients in an 8-hr day, THEN you can ask us what the big deal is. You, as a manager, DO get to sit on your butt all day and "manage" (which apparently consists of posting on SDN), so of course it's no big deal to you. Who cares if the doctors get burnt out, as long as you get your numbers, right? A full book may mean optimum sales, but your poor doctors are putting their noses to the grindstone trying to get all those double-booked patients through so no one gets frustrated for waiting. Is it the doctor's fault for overbooking? No. Do they have to pay for that oversight? Yes. Does anyone, including the regional management, recognize them for their hard work? Probably not.

What if you had to put through 40-50 troubleshoots/returns in an 8 hr day? And YOU had to do every single one of them? And as each 5 mins pass, customers get more frustrated because you're taking too long? How now brown cow?

I'm sorry, but you don't belong on here. Does corporate know you're on here posting? Do they approve of what you're writing? You don't see Luxottica on here posting stuff like that. I don't like them any more than visionworks, but maybe that's why they're still kicking your butt. Your company may pay well, but they forget that their doctors are people too. We don't want you here and you're just further sullying the name of visionworks by being here. Go home.
----------------------------------
Visionworks
I agree with what you are saying, however, we compensate our docs very well. If they have to go through a tough day, they are reaping in major incentives via cash bonuses. Sure, the number may seem high, seeing 40 patients, but at the end of the day, when you make those bonuses, who can complain? Docs have the ability to double their salary in bonus incentives. Think about how much that can buy you. A new house, a new car, the end of your student loans. It's money, and it's a great reward.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 12:56 PM
HonestAbbey
Must be frustrating for the doctors to be just refraction monkeys. Does Visionworks know how damaging this post is for the company itself? Congratulations on pushing away several thousand students from wanting to stay there. I don't know who this person is but they're not even good with PR. This person obviously needs to be fired for not even being able to defend their own company. Yeah, we get paid a lot. But it sounds more like jealousy from this person's part for assuming that we don't do much as an optometrist and getting paid well.

It's not about the money, it's about the vision care. I have a practice and get burnt out on seeing a max of 15 patients a day but at least I know they're getting the comprehensive exams that they need! I may end up doing OCTs, VFs, IOPs with a tonometer probe, blood pressure checks, glucose checks, dilations etc! How on earth can any of that be done in minutes? These poor patients aren't getting their ocular health checked at all! Doctors can miss out on a lot when all they do is flip switched around. You miss out on ocular health problems, functional vision issues, hell you won't even know if the patient's vision changed because they're diabetes is out of control because you won't have the time to find out!

Places like Visionworks are the reasons why the public aren't taking ocular health seriously!

Abbey

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808494)
Visionworks
I agree with what you are saying, however, we compensate our docs very well. If they have to go through a tough day, they are reaping in major incentives via cash bonuses. Sure, the number may seem high, seeing 40 patients, but at the end of the day, when you make those bonuses, who can complain? Docs have the ability to double their salary in bonus incentives. Think about how much that can buy you. A new house, a new car, the end of your student loans. It's money, and it's a great reward.

-------------------------
Mewcakes
You just don't get it. Who cares what bonuses you make when you're so tired at the end of the day that you can barely walk back to your car? No matter how much money you throw at a person, it's generally not enough to buy their mental health.

Again, you don't need to be here. You are neither a student or a doctor and all you're doing here is ruffling feathers. Corporate would be ashamed.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808585)
Mewcakes
You just don't get it. Who cares what bonuses you make when you're so tired at the end of the day that you can barely walk back to your car? No matter how much money you throw at a person, it's generally not enough to buy their mental health.

Again, you don't need to be here. You are neither a student or a doctor and all you're doing here is ruffling feathers. Corporate would be ashamed.

---------------------------------------
Visionworks
I don't think any docs have been so tired that they could not walk back to their cars. This isn't a heavy duty gym work-out, mind you. It's a simple few exams you conduct on a day to day basis. Still, I think in general the pay outweighs any cons you list. To any new grads, just remember that we pay the most, and you'll cut down those students loans much faster working at Visionworks.

Also, think of the help we provide the public. When we started that 2 for 59.00 dollar promotion that included a free eye exam it was great for us. We generated a nice flow, and the docs were able to help more people receive a free eye exam.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-15-2010 02:49 PM
Quote:
Mewcakes
Whatever, I'm done. We don't have visionworks on the west coast but I wouldn't even touch one with a forty foot pole after this conversation. GJ visionworks. Now go. No one wants you here.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-16-2010 03:54 PM
beaneek
Thanks for the info!

"50 patients a day? 5 minutes is ample time for a full eye exam?"

Before reading this, I was actually considering applying to a VisionWorks in my area. Now I definitely will not be doing so. Thanks for the info, VisionWorks! Good to know 😀

~New Grad 😛

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9808585)
Mewcakes
You just don't get it. Who cares what bonuses you make when you're so tired at the end of the day that you can barely walk back to your car? No matter how much money you throw at a person, it's generally not enough to buy their mental health.

Again, you don't need to be here. You are neither a student or a doctor and all you're doing here is ruffling feathers. Corporate would be ashamed.

------------------------------------
Visionworks
Most docs appreciate a large paycheck, and being able to have a steady job. Just ask around about how hard docs are finding it to attain a constant 5 day work week in this tough economy. Visionworks provides docs with a steady job and great benefits, let alone a high salary.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9813758)
beaneek
"50 patients a day? 5 minutes is ample time for a full eye exam?"

Before reading this, I was actually considering applying to a VisionWorks in my area. Now I definitely will not be doing so. Thanks for the info, VisionWorks! Good to know 😀

~New Grad 😛

----------------------------------
Visionworks
We conducted a study by paying customers to have eye exams at other locations: lenscrafters, walmart, private practices, etc. After they did their eye exams we asked them a number of questions pertaining to the exam itself. What we found was that the majority of customers did not want an hour long exam, and the majority did not want an exam that lasted 1 minute (Americas Best). They average boiled down to 5 minutes, so that is what we aim for.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 07:42 AM
Quote:
Visionworks
I was only sent here to defend Visionworks. Many of you think I do not work for Visionworks, because I didn't sugarcoat the job. However, sugarcoating the information only leads to a huge uproar and accusations of lying. Instead, I'm just giving the information as it really is.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816148)
Visionworks
We conducted a study by paying customers to have eye exams at other locations: lenscrafters, walmart, private practices, etc. After they did their eye exams we asked them a number of questions pertaining to the exam itself. What we found was that the majority of customers did not want an hour long exam, and the majority did not want an exam that lasted 1 minute (Americas Best). They average boiled down to 5 minutes, so that is what we aim for.
-----------------------------
JMU07
Okay I have to know how it's even possible to see someone WITHOUT compromising their eye health in five minutes. Please, enlighten me.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816445)
JMU07
Okay I have to know how it's even possible to see someone WITHOUT compromising their eye health in five minutes. Please, enlighten me.

------------------------------
Visionworks
Since all pre-testing is already done, when the customer walks into the exam room, the doc can just refract, check the eyes with their slit lamp, and dilate. This can usually be done in 4-5 minutes, and after 2 more patients are seen, check the dilated patient in 1 minute. Continue until the end of the day. A fast pace, yes I know, but it helps the day go by fast.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816468)
Visionworks
Since all pre-testing is already done, when the customer walks into the exam room, the doc can just refract, check the eyes with their slit lamp, and dilate. This can usually be done in 4-5 minutes, and after 2 more patients are seen, check the dilated patient in 1 minute. Continue until the end of the day. A fast pace, yes I know, but it helps the day go by fast.

-------------------------------
fonziefonz
You're an idiot if you think you can 'mechanize' proper health care into an industrial production line.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816484)
fonziefonz
You're an idiot if you think you can 'mechanize' proper health care into an industrial production line.

--------------------------------
Visionworks
We are not mechanizing anything here. If the doc needs to take some extra time with a patient, by all means. Our system only helps to keep a steady flow of customers, since studies show that most people have little to no ocular disease. Sure, you might get someone with high pressures, but that's when you can refer those patients out to specialists.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816627)
Visionworks
We are not mechanizing anything here. If the doc needs to take some extra time with a patient, by all means. Our system only helps to keep a steady flow of customers, since studies show that most people have little to no ocular disease. Sure, you might get someone with high pressures, but that's when you can refer those patients out to specialists.

-----------------------------
JMU07
You refer out for glaucoma/suspects??? Wow. I mean I know optometrists can't treat it in certain states, but what is the point of these docs spending so much time and money to go through school if they don't treat any disease? All they do is refract? Although I guess most people who know they have a problem will go to a doc that will take the time to help them out.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816627)
Visionworks
We are not mechanizing anything here. If the doc needs to take some extra time with a patient, by all means. Our system only helps to keep a steady flow of customers, since studies show that most people have little to no ocular disease. Sure, you might get someone with high pressures, but that's when you can refer those patients out to specialists.

-----------------------------------------
PBEA
what "studies" show that people have "little or no ocular disease"? Do you have a link to those studies? Is it your contention that because there is "little or no ocular disease" that somehow the obligation to check for disease is no longer necessary? I know that is one rational I've heard in support of stand alone refractive testing.

In my experience with mallmarts and such, I would suggest that many retail minded "eyeglass exams" focus on just that. Selling. As such, though someone may present with a blurred vision complaint (be it from blepharitis, cataract, corneal dystrophy, etc) that the outcome is nearly always the same. "Here is your eyeglass prescription, let me show you to the dispensary". Your company embodies everything that is wrong with the delivery of eyecare. First, you dupe customers into thinking they are getting an eye exam. Then you diliberately lie about the cause of their complaint (whether by omission, incompetence, greed, ego, etc), "you need some new glasses Mr. so-and-so". You and your ilk, are irresponsible, and you ARE harming people (misdiagnosis via crappy examination, or unecessary glasses and associated costs), and lastly you are hurting optometry (I know, I know, you don't care). The last thing ODs need is more crapticals pumping out "eyeglass exams". Personally I wish you guys would just stick to selling cheap specs and get the hell out of the "eyeglass exam" scam.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816148)
Visionworks
We conducted a study by paying customers to have eye exams at other locations: lenscrafters, walmart, private practices, etc. After they did their eye exams we asked them a number of questions pertaining to the exam itself. What we found was that the majority of customers did not want an hour long exam, and the majority did not want an exam that lasted 1 minute (Americas Best). They average boiled down to 5 minutes, so that is what we aim for.

-------------------------------------------------
DrSpontaneouz83
I am not sure what kind of ridiculous studies your company has conducted but clearly they are flawed. I also didn't know the "average person" who can't even distinguish between opticians, optometrists, and ophthalmologists should dictate what is best for their vision and ocular health. Well guess what? Cancer patients do not enjoy undergoing chemotherapy, but it is NECESSARY for their own well being.

Secondly, when you go through optometry school and actually have a degree...then you can determine what is "easy" and what a TRUE eye exam entails.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those customers who want 5 minute eye exams may in fact actually have some ocular disorder ie; high IOPs, IOL implants, severe cataracts. They may not realize your hi-tech automated tonometer or autorefractor may not work on them......thus, require more than 5 minutes. Lets keep in mind, this is medical health, not a fast food service! 😱

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816735)
JMU07
You refer out for glaucoma/suspects??? Wow. I mean I know optometrists can't treat it in certain states, but what is the point of these docs spending so much time and money to go through school if they don't treat any disease? All they do is refract? Although I guess most people who know they have a problem will go to a doc that will take the time to help them out.

-------
Visionworks
We want our docs to refer disease out to specialists who know how to handle those diseases best. Our stores really need to run on high volume, and it's only efficient to refer out in our set up.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816805)
PBEA
what "studies" show that people have "little or no ocular disease"? Do you have a link to those studies? Is it your contention that because there is "little or no ocular disease" that somehow the obligation to check for disease is no longer necessary? I know that is one rational I've heard in support of stand alone refractive testing.

In my experience with mallmarts and such, I would suggest that many retail minded "eyeglass exams" focus on just that. Selling. As such, though someone may present with a blurred vision complaint (be it from blepharitis, cataract, corneal dystrophy, etc) that the outcome is nearly always the same. "Here is your eyeglass prescription, let me show you to the dispensary". Your company embodies everything that is wrong with the delivery of eyecare. First, you dupe customers into thinking they are getting an eye exam. Then you diliberately lie about the cause of their complaint (whether by omission, incompetence, greed, ego, etc), "you need some new glasses Mr. so-and-so". You and your ilk, are irresponsible, and you ARE harming people (misdiagnosis via crappy examination, or unecessary glasses and associated costs), and lastly you are hurting optometry (I know, I know, you don't care). The last thing ODs need is more crapticals pumping out "eyeglass exams". Personally I wish you guys would just stick to selling cheap specs and get the hell out of the "eyeglass exam" scam.


----------------------------------
Visionworks
We do not "dupe" our customers. In fact we are one of the few companies that actually cares. Just recently we gave out thousands of vouchers for free eye exams and free eye glasses during the start of a few college basketball games. We do care about our customers.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 11:53 AM
Quote:
Visionworks
Our random survey showed that most customers only wanted 5 minute exams. Of course there were outliers in the study who wanted longer exam. Some wanted 1 hr exams and a more thorough test, but those were only outliers to the study.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 12:39 PM
socal2014
this thread is hilarious!

Vision works guy, OD's are doctors who have had much training in their respective field, so how can you expect OD's to only spend 5 minutes with patients when their counterparts - dentists/pharmacists/audiologists etc - are spending much more time? I don't think you know what an Optometrist does to be honest. And if patients want a 5 minute exam, then they should pay premium- approximately 5x for an eye exam, otherwise we can stick to the traditional 30 minute COMPREHENSIVE exam. Oh yeah, would you be able to post the "survey" which states that patients prefer 5 minute exams rather than 1/60 minute exams?


On a more serious note, how much time does an OD spend with a patient? Aside from pre-testing, how much time does the OD need to examine the patient for diseases etc? Doesn't it look unprofessional to the patient if the OD is not spending enough time with him/her?

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9817265)
socal2014
On a more serious note, how much time does an OD spend with a patient? Aside from pre-testing, how much time does the OD need to examine the patient for diseases etc? Doesn't it look unprofessional to the patient if the OD is not spending enough time with him/her?

------------------------
JMU07
It really depends on how the doc operates. The office I worked in didn't have a tech, so the doctor did everything except the NCT and auto refractor. Some offices have techs who do chair skills and refraction before the doc comes in. I'm sure some people want to be in and out in 5 minutes but these are the people who just want glasses and don't care about if their eye is actually healthy or not. At our clinic we don't have an issue finding patients who want to come in and be seen by students for 2-3 hours - but the majority of our patients are unhealthy and need the extra time.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9816805)
PBEA
what "studies" show that people have "little or no ocular disease"? Do you have a link to those studies? Is it your contention that because there is "little or no ocular disease" that somehow the obligation to check for disease is no longer necessary? I know that is one rational I've heard in support of stand alone refractive testing.

-------------------------------------
VA Hopeful Dr
Do y'all have some figure as to how many patients with no major risk factors for eye disease (diabetes, HTN, being AA, elderly) that can be refracted to 20/20 have underlying pathology that will have a major impact on their vision within 1 year if you don't catch it?

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9817120)
Visionworks
Our random survey showed that most customers only wanted 5 minute exams. Of course there were outliers in the study who wanted longer exam. Some wanted 1 hr exams and a more thorough test, but those were only outliers to the study.

------------------------
VA Hopeful Dr
In medicine, and this definitely includes optometry, you (the patient) can't always get what you want.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-17-2010 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9817815)
VA Hopeful Dr
Do y'all have some figure as to how many patients with no major risk factors for eye disease (diabetes, HTN, being AA, elderly) that can be refracted to 20/20 have underlying pathology that will have a major impact on their vision within 1 year if you don't catch it?
----------------------------------------------
PBEA
Nothing with that title 🙄, but it goes without saying. In other words it is obvious (to me at least). Besides, you don't have to look too far to see significant morbidity in a "20/20" pt. Glaucoma is a glaring example, feel free to google its prevalence/incidence. Peripheral retinal disease, tumour, anything not involving the visual axis, can (and do) report BCVA 20/20. It's actually a pretty long list (if you use ICD10, it probably numbers in the thousands 🙂). It's why I dislike "empirical" diagnosis, not when a definitive diagnosis can be had pretty easily in most cases.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9818635)
PBEA
Nothing with that title 🙄, but it goes without saying. In other words it is obvious (to me at least). Besides, you don't have to look too far to see significant morbidity in a "20/20" pt. Glaucoma is a glaring example, feel free to google its prevalence/incidence. Peripheral retinal disease, tumour, anything not involving the visual axis, can (and do) report BCVA 20/20. It's actually a pretty long list (if you use ICD10, it probably numbers in the thousands 🙂). It's why I dislike "empirical" diagnosis, not when a definitive diagnosis can be had pretty easily in most cases.

------------------------------------
VA Hopeful Dr
I understand all of that, I'm just curious as to the incidence given the factors I listed.

How many 24 year old healthy white men have you found glaucoma in? How much peripheral retinal disease in 30 year olds with no comorbidities?

I'm not trying to argue on behalf of this Visionworks place, I certainly believe that if you come in for what is an ocular physical you should just accept that the exam will take some time. Women know that, when they go to their doctor to get birth control, they're going to get a pelvic exam. I'm just kinda curious about how often we'd miss pathology in low risk patients who want glasses.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9819742)
VA Hopeful Dr
I understand all of that, I'm just curious as to the incidence given the factors I listed.

How many 24 year old healthy white men have you found glaucoma in? How much peripheral retinal disease in 30 year olds with no comorbidities?

I'm not trying to argue on behalf of this Visionworks place, I certainly believe that if you come in for what is an ocular physical you should just accept that the exam will take some time. Women know that, when they go to their doctor to get birth control, they're going to get a pelvic exam. I'm just kinda curious about how often we'd miss pathology in low risk patients who want glasses.

--------------------------
PBEA
I know what you are asking, and the only thing close to it is a Canadian study in 2003, which put the number at 1 out of 7 asymptomatic pts will have eye disease . I might peg it a little higher because I'm a little skeptical of ophthalmic reporting because just looking at the "visionworks" example, you can be sure that these guys don't report anything but refractive error. Regardless of risk factors, presenting signs and symptoms,etc. Keep in mind also that the use of "glasses" by itself can be a major risk factor. High myopia, high hyperopia, high astigmatism, etc ALL have serious eye disease associated with them. Lastly, lets not delude ourselves into thinking that the vast majority of people seeking eye examination are represented by 24yo wm with no complaint or relevent history. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Using my own little office, I would say nearly 8 or 9 out of 10 walk in with some significant risk factor.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 05:15 AM
Visionworks
You must remember that Visionworks provides all docs with malpractice insurance, so no doc needs to worry about missing pathology. With Visionworks you're pretty secure.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9819742)
VA Hopeful Dr
I understand all of that, I'm just curious as to the incidence given the factors I listed.

How many 24 year old healthy white men have you found glaucoma in? How much peripheral retinal disease in 30 year olds with no comorbidities?

I'm not trying to argue on behalf of this Visionworks place, I certainly believe that if you come in for what is an ocular physical you should just accept that the exam will take some time. Women know that, when they go to their doctor to get birth control, they're going to get a pelvic exam. I'm just kinda curious about how often we'd miss pathology in low risk patients who want glasses.

-----------------------
PBEA
Also want to point out that people rarely "want glasses". As one of the frequent posters of these forum likes to point out, glasses are typically a "grudge purchase", they are essentially ALL having problems of one degree or another, so there is often some symptom. It's just that everyone likes/wants to assume its ALWAYS related to refractive error (IMO, retail interests, the mall, etc all take advantage of this confusion, and perpetuate it). Obviously many are minor issues, but again many are not. Trust me, after explaining why the glasses won't fix their vision (I must be up n=100k, at this point 🙄), you eventually see how deeply rooted this misleading concept is for the layperson. One last thing, I promise, is that given the population that you are asking about (20-40yo), you should also find that refractive error often remains static, so IF there is a symptom (including "blurred vision"), it is often peripheral to any "eyeglass issue".

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[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9819954)
Visionworks
You must remember that Visionworks provides all docs with malpractice insurance, so no doc needs to worry about missing pathology. With Visionworks you're pretty secure.
--------------------
PBEA
I sincerely hope you are joking. Otherwise, I find your comments absolutely ridiculous. You are doing a wonderful job illustrating the EXTREME conflict of interest present in retail opticals such as yours.

Ken is that you? :😀

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9820007)
PBEA
I sincerely hope you are joking. Otherwise, I find your comments absolutely ridiculous. You are doing a wonderful job illustrating the EXTREME conflict of interest present in retail opticals such as yours.

Ken is that you? :😀

---------------------------
Visionworks
I don't see what the joke is. We are serious about protecting our docs, and our malpractice insurance definitely covers anything the docs miss. Many of the messages posted list how they feel customers need longer exams, but we honestly feel this would not be efficient or profitable enough. We're trying to maximize profit and we fit in the perfect niche here.

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[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 05:32 AM
Visionworks
Looking at the stats for our stores, I can say that most of our customers who enter, will end up purchasing some sort of eyewear. We make the eyewear usually within an hour, and because of our one-hour service we can usually provide service to our customers that can outpace any private practice provider.

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9820014)
Visionworks
Looking at the stats for our stores, I can say that most of our customers who enter, will end up purchasing some sort of eyewear.
---------------------------------
PBEA
that pretty much sums it up, thanks for proving my point 🙄

quote

 

[Mixin Marc]

06-18-2010 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Post 9819912)
PBEA
I know what you are asking, and the only thing close to it is a Canadian study in 2003, which put the number at 1 out of 7 asymptomatic pts will have eye disease . I might peg it a little higher because I'm a little skeptical of ophthalmic reporting because just looking at the "visionworks" example, you can be sure that these guys don't report anything but refractive error. Regardless of risk factors, presenting signs and symptoms,etc. Keep in mind also that the use of "glasses" by itself can be a major risk factor. High myopia, high hyperopia, high astigmatism, etc ALL have serious eye disease associated with them. Lastly, lets not delude ourselves into thinking that the vast majority of people seeking eye examination are represented by 24yo wm with no complaint or relevent history. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Using my own little office, I would say nearly 8 or 9 out of 10 walk in with some significant risk factor.

-------------------------
VA Hopeful Dr
You know, I was trying to somehow compare this with anything us MDs do. I was having difficultly as we don't usually do any materials. Then I realized, getting an exam before a new glasses Rx is no different than my patients having to come in every 4-6 months for more BP meds and them putting up with the exam I'm requiring before I'll give them anything even though the NNT is pretty darn high with most of what we do. I don't know of many MDs that will hand out much of anything based on just vital signs.

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