Visiting England!

[eastofnorth]

All this talk of Irish schools, I felt I had to break it up with some UK. ;P

In five fridays from now, I'll be boarding a plane to Manchester!!! Cannot wait!!! I'm still searching for my 4th school (likely another London), but right now have plans to visit Bristol, Liverpool, and Imperial College.

Imperial has broken away from the London schools, and I'm curious to see how this impacts things like residences and cost. Despite the outstanding reputation and really great research, I'm wary about school in a huge urban area -- plus one that shares its patient population with so many other hospitals and students.

Bristol and Liverpool both have a lot of great things going for them, in terms of curriculum, student population/morale, and their respective revitalized cities. I love ports and rivers! Initially, I selected them for their graduate entry and reproductive science programs, and I have a really sneaking feeling I'm going to end up at one of the two.

Right now, I'm taking a biochemistry course for fun (and it should be a nice boost to my gpa) and I plan to apply this September. After the biochem is over in May, I hope to concentrate on publishing some of my writing and increasing the sales of my photographs. That plus selling my car will be my security for moving to the UK.

Still going to be taking out loads of loans. But at least I'll not have to worry about paying for an apartment (another reason why London is not so great). Something about working on your own for a few years just makes you less willing to sign into debt.


I have to admit though, I'm looking at UK schools because I'm considering settling in the UK. This isn't an alternative for me, which is why I'm applying to them before US schools. I'm unsure if I want to wait the required residency period before applying (to get the lower rates) mainly for biological reasons. But I'm not pursuing medicine for the money, so the debt is something I accept with the path of my choice. =)

I'd love for the UK students and hopefuls to be more vocal in the forum!!

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[Zazoo]

If you've got any questions about London, or GKT, i'd be happy to answer.
you seem to have done a great deal of research, and come across as being quite clued up!
good luck with it all.

 

[Kev (UK)]

I'd love for the UK students and hopefuls to be more vocal in the forum!!

Very few UK students are members of this forum as we have our own UK boards for medical students and applicants. If you want to "meet" more UK student and wannabes, find them at

www.admissionsforum.co.uk

www.medschoolguide.co.uk

 

[dr strangelove]

I'm at Glasgow so if you need any advice on Scotland, give me a shout.

 

[eastofnorth]

If you've got any questions about London, or GKT, i'd be happy to answer.
you seem to have done a great deal of research, and come across as being quite clued up!
good luck with it all.

Aside: I love the JCB song! So glad they've gotten popular again.

 

[dlformiga1]

East of North,

I am a fellow North American looking to study medicine in the UK. I was just there this week (I'm currently in Madrid) for 2 interviews (Leicester and Brighton and Sussex). I really enjoyed my stay there, and the schools were really relaxed, a great environment to study medicine. I actually enjoyed Leicester and Brighton more than London (watch out for the prices in London!). As for the interviews, Brighton and Sussex I didn't feel went so well but Leicester was pretty good. The odds are low regardless, but I would say definitely worth a try. Anyway, enjoy your trip, and good luck!

 

[jane2]

I'm intrigued to find out how you feel Imperial has broken away from the other med schools - do you mean in method (I'm not sure this is true) or in physical location (this is definitely not true.)

Have you considered UCL? Of the London med schools, UCL and Imperial have the best academic repuation, and in my opinion UCL is in a nicer, more fun area, with better reputed hospitals, and the university experience would be better as it also has non-science subjects.

I'm a Londoner and happy to help if I can.

 

[Kev (UK)]

I'm intrigued to find out how you feel Imperial has broken away from the other med schools - do you mean in method (I'm not sure this is true) or in physical location (this is definitely not true.)

Have you considered UCL? Of the London med schools, UCL and Imperial have the best academic repuation, and in my opinion UCL is in a nicer, more fun area, with better reputed hospitals, and the university experience would be better as it also has non-science subjects.

I'm a Londoner and happy to help if I can.

Imperial are no longer part of the UoL confederation. This means graduates will recieve a degree from Imperial, not University of London. UCL are or will be soon, doing the same.

 

[jane2]

That hasn't happened yet and won't affect anyone until the 2008 intake - and really, that's just a difference on paper and with regard to funding etc- it won't affect the medical curriculum.

I hadn't heard that UCL were doing the same though. Interesting.

It's hardly the major different though that I thought eastofnorth was talking about??

 

[Kev (UK)]

That hasn't happened yet and won't affect anyone until the 2008 intake - and really, that's just a difference on paper and with regard to funding etc- it won't affect the medical curriculum.

I hadn't heard that UCL were doing the same though. Interesting.

It's hardly the major different though that I thought eastofnorth was talking about??

I agree. The undergraduate medical student "experience" will be no different at all. It's all to with finance. Maybe UCL have not made a final decision as yet but it's been mooted for a while they will follow Imperial. I think it's inevitable.

Though personally I'd go for a school outside London any day!

 

[eastofnorth]

That hasn't happened yet and won't affect anyone until the 2008 intake - and really, that's just a difference on paper and with regard to funding etc- it won't affect the medical curriculum.

I hadn't heard that UCL were doing the same though. Interesting.

It's hardly the major different though that I thought eastofnorth was talking about??

I hadn't read that it wouldn't take effect until 2008 intake -- that means students who start in 2007 will still be a part of the University system? It's important to me because I have contacts at other University schools, and I'd love to use them to strengthen my applications. Obviously if Imperial severs the ties completely, it will have less effect.

I'm not concerned in terms of medical curriculum, though, or funding, since the programs I'm looking at are very well supported on their own merit. I do have to agree with Kev, though -- Bristol and Liverpool are both very attractive prospects in their own right, and it will be hard to justify the living expenses of London even if (a big if) i get accepted to Imperial.

NA applicants don't have great odds for UK schools, so I'm really banking on the specific researchers at the schools I listed. =)


I might bug you for info on GKT, Zazoo.. but I won't if I want to fill my fourth slot with another London school until I visit in March. It'll be hard to justify an application to another London school when the researchers there are all associated with Imperial.

dlformiga1, I'm glad your interview at Leicester went well -- the fact that you got two interviews is a great success! I hope you have many good choices ahead of you. =) Why did you select the schools you did?

 

[jane2]

Yes, students who start in 2007 will still be part of U of L. To be honest, i'm not sure what your perception is of how much difference it makes being part of U of L or not part of it - as I think I may have said before, it probably makes a difference in terms of funding and the degree of autonomy the university as a whole has, but to the individual student and even the individual professor/tutor, it won't make any difference worth noting. It's something which is happening to the uni as a whole, not the medical school in particular, and most of the changes will be quite global and overarching.

I'm not sure how you think the specific people you know at certains schools will make any difference. I mean - say you applied to Imperial and knew someone who was part of, say, Kings College London. There's just no way you can use this to strengthen your application - how does it do so? The UK application process is designed to completely filter out any advantage an applicant might have had 50 years ago by going to the right school or knowing the admissions tutor. I don't really see why the Imperial admissions tutors would care whether or not you know someone from one of their competitors or not. Even though Imperial is in the U of L group, the other London med schools are still competitors for strong candidates, so to be honest if you go on too much about the people you know from UCL or Kings, they'll just be sitting there wondering why you didn't apply there instead. It certainly doesn't make any difference whether or not they're part of U of L or not - whether or not Imperial is part of UofL; it, UCL and Kings are still completely different places and universities, with separate hospitals, departments and teaching faculties, and name-dropping will sound the same whether this change has been affected or not. You say 'obviously if Imperial severs the ties, it will have less effect' - this isn't really true. If you've been involved in a British research project, then that's great whether it's at Dundee, Southampton or anywhere inbetween, and if you haven't and just happen to 'know' some people at some London school, this isn't impressive or relevant either way. I don't mean to be rude, hope it doesn't come across this way.

All I'm trying to say is basically don't take membership of U of L to mean too much, nor for the change to mean too much. It's not really any kind of revolution!!!

All the best with your applications. I'd recommend you consider applying to UCL because they look favourably upon mature applicants (which presumably you are, if you're American - I'm assuming you've already done an undergrad?) whereas some of the other universities have a very small % of over 18 applicants. Bristol, Imperial and Liverpool are all great cities and great schools.

Feel free to ask us any more questions!

 

[jane2]

PS - just read your comments about Imperial's location - although it is in a big city, no doubt about it, it's also in one of the nicest areas of the city, with lots of parks and greenery and lovely historic buildings in the area. Not too urban-feeling in places!

And your concerns about the patients being shared with other hospitals, although understandable, are perhaps based on a misunderstanding of quite how big London actually is!!! Your local hospital (where you'd go for scheduled surgery etc, unless you were referred to a London specialist from outside the capital) depends on where you live, and in that sense each of the London hospital trusts has a huge 'pool' of potential patients, all roughly the same size. Emergency patients are usually just taken to the nearest hospital and, again, this gives Imperial's hospitals as many potential patients as the others. You'd have no shortage of patients; Imperial has great specialist units with patients referred from all over the country and it would be a fantastic place to train.

 

[jane2]

for some reason my replies didnt bump this to the top of the page....or even show at all........

 

[eastofnorth]

Hi Jane, Thanks for your replies. Sorry to be misleading -- this may seem untraditional, since most medical students in the UK are undergraduates who are attending higher institutions for the first time, but I am interested in "who" is at each school because I have very narrow research interests. Here in the US, doing research with a specific (often well known individual) is often competitive and attending graduate school to do said research often depends on how much you can impress that specific professor -- NOT any admissions committee. I do realize this is not the case with medical school admissions, in both countries.

HOWEVER.

Any contacts I have would be used to connect me to potential researchers, and if Imperial College breaks financial ties with other U of L schools, any research ties between schools is probably going to be stressed. When I say my application would be strengthened, I mean being able to sit in an interview room and be able to explain how well I know the research that is going on at that institution -- which will hopefully include being in contact (however regular) with the professors who do said research. This is probably a whole lot more depth than most applicants in the UK consider when applying to schools, but I'm looking to UK schools precisely for their worldclass research in reproductive medicine. The connections you make in school help set you up for the opportunities you have for working in the future. =)


Also, as a NA applicant, I am not coming from a disadvantaged country with limited training in medicine. It's my burden to prove to these schools why I am interested in the UK -- to show that I am a strong candidate even in my own country, and I am looking to the UK for very specific reasons. For that reason, I am probably more educated on your current system of social healthcare, more aware of residency training requirements, than many of your citizen applicants! As well it should be, though, since I would be taking an important slot if accepted and I better well deserve it. =)


Note that although you've emphasized this (contacts in admissions) in discussion, this is an extremely small part of my own thoughts and ideas concerning application. There's a good chance that when I visit London, I will strike Imperial off my list completely. It already has some strong negatives (6 year, Lecture-based, Expensive Living) that are barely outweighed by their current research. So please understand that if Imperial is a candidate at all for one of my four slots, it is almost entirely due to the people who work there, the nature of the research, and the morale and funding of the departments. You are correct in assuming I'm a mature graduate, and it's because of my six years already spend in academia that these things are important to me and my idea of a successful academic career (not to mentional enjoyable 4-6 years). =)

As per patient population -- I'm basically talking about ease of scheduling clinical rotations. Pittsburgh, PA, for example, has only one medical school for the entire urban area and region. It's therefore an extremely attractive place for clinical studies, since you, as a student, will have a relatively easy time getting a variety of experiences, without worrying about competing with your peers or (even worse) students from other schools, for your ideal clinical schedule. Philadelphia students on the other hand have less choices, even though their population is much higher. Ultimately they all get similar experiences, but some (Pitt) have more control over how and when. This may be quite different in the UK -- since hospital affiliations and clinical scheduling could be completely different.

This, again, is a small point, since I am mostly looking towards school curriculum (PBL), community size and culture, and research in reproductive science. It is something to keep in mind though when adding up pros and cons for each school. =)

I'm not sure how/why you thought I felt these were major issues, but I'm glad to explain my reasoning. =) Feel free to ask more questions if you have any! Thanks for your feedback.

 

[jane2]

Oh right, ok - I understand some of what you're saying.

However the thing I don't understand is how knowing researchers at other members of the U of L group will help in your application to Imperial? I do understand if you knew of research AT IMPERIAL which made you want to apply there, but in that case whether or not it is part of U of L doesnt' make any difference to this. This is the only part of what you say which confuses me. I completely respect the fact that you want to work with experts in a particular field - but in that case,apply to the precise med school that they're at. If this is Imperial then why do you mention the split from U of L?

You also mention PBL - Imperial is not a PBL based course, unless something major has changed since I read their prospectus a year ago....

 

[eastofnorth]

You also mention PBL - Imperial is not a PBL based course, unless something major has changed since I read their prospectus a year ago....

That's why it's a big negative. See: "(6 year, Lecture-based, Expensive Living)"

Per researchers: I think I've figured out your confusion. I do not want to do work with the researchers I know. If I did, I would be applying to their universities. The best way I can summarize their influence in my application is this: they are references which are UK based who could reassure the UK schools that I have specific interests in studying there and specific abilities to do so. As a mature, graduate and international applicant, I am allowed to send extra information to my specific schools to expand on and clarify portions of my UCAS. These references would be a bonus aka not necessary.

I'm not really sure why you are belaboring the UofL split ?? I've barely mentioned it in my discussions here, and only in the context of wondering how it will affect student life. (see: "I'm curious to see how this impacts things like residences and cost"). I think why I mentioned it is pretty clear there (I'm curious to see how this impacts things like residences and cost). It's reaaaaaaaaaaaallly not this big of an issue to me.

 

[ramekin]

PBL courses also comprise a significant proportion of lectures.

Prospective undergraduates may also send in information relevent to their application in addition to the UCAS form. In fact it's quite common to send in samples of coursework or a headmaster's recommendation directly to medical school admissions officers.

The University of London plays no significant role - socially, academically or politically - in the activities of the constituent colleges. Univ of London campus is located on the other side of town to Imperial College, for example. The facilities are used mainly by the colleges that share its campus or are located nearby - University College, Birkbeck College, SOAS, the Royal Academy of Music and the various postgraduate instutes and schools. Unless you play varsity sports you'd be unlikely to notice any impact of the withdrawel of your college (be it Imperial or any other college) from the university. And if ICL did want to retain use of University facilities the matter would simply be resolved through a subscription fee.

Collaborations between postgraduate research institutes (whether allied to the University or a particular college) tend to be independent of the University of London anyway, so it wouldn't affect these relationships in any way or form. May i ask where your research interests lie?

That's why it's a big negative. See: "(6 year, Lecture-based, Expensive Living)"

Per researchers: I think I've figured out your confusion. I do not want to do work with the researchers I know. If I did, I would be applying to their universities. The best way I can summarize their influence in my application is this: they are references which are UK based who could reassure the UK schools that I have specific interests in studying there and specific abilities to do so. As a mature, graduate and international applicant, I am allowed to send extra information to my specific schools to expand on and clarify portions of my UCAS. These references would be a bonus aka not necessary.

I'm not really sure why you are belaboring the UofL split ?? I've barely mentioned it in my discussions here, and only in the context of wondering how it will affect student life. (see: "I'm curious to see how this impacts things like residences and cost"). I think why I mentioned it is pretty clear there (I'm curious to see how this impacts things like residences and cost). It's reaaaaaaaaaaaallly not this big of an issue to me.

 

[Zazoo]

Am on peripheral placement at the moment (with limited computer access) and (should be!) revising for exams, so I apologise for the lack of posts. This post may seem a bit random in that I tried to cover points from several posts… so here goes:
- Jane2: ‘UCL and Imperial have the best academic repuation,’ – first of all, greetings fellow Londoner! I’d agree that Imperial has an academic reputation – but UCL?? That’s rather controversial. All the London med schools are just as good as each other academically – but they do have very different characters. We’re all going to qualify as doctors.
- One of the big advantages of being in London is the patient population – as well as the common stuff, you’ll also have an oppurtunity to see conditions from all around the world (e.g. sickle cell, thallasaemia, SLE, etc, etc).
- Researchers all based in Imperial? Researchers are present in all London schools (and outside of London too)! Concentrate on finding a course structure that appeals to you (be it systems based, problem based e.t.c), an area that you won’t mind living in for 5 years, and perhaps look at hospitals known for certain specialities (e.g. St. Thomas’ for SLE, the Maudsely for psychiatry, e.t.c as a couple of examples).
- With regard to research, that would mainly be carried out in an intercalated BSc year (an additional year to the straight 5 years of med school), which you could theoritically apply to institutions other than the one you attend for your medical course - e.g. go to imperial, do BSc in UCL (though admittedly, it can be more competitive this way).
- I’m getting the impression you’re more interested in research than medicine? They are 2 quite different things… I suppose it could be useful to say you are interested and are aware of research being carried out in various institutions… I’ll put my hands up and admit I won’t know what is expected from foreign graduates at interview – but I’m thinking it may have some similarities to what is expected from a school leaver applicant – why they are interested in medicine itself, why they want to be a doctor, and what is it about this medical school that attracts them. I may be losing the point, but with your emphasis on research, they may ask why you’re not applying to do a straight research degree in your chosen field (i.e. MSc, PhD…).
- Bug me as much as you wish with questions on GKT and London – would be more than happy to answer (though responses will probably be more forthcoming once my exam is out the way!).
- ps, indeed, the JCB song is soooooo cool!

 

[Slam Master J]

Hi eastofnorth,

I'm a Canadian university grad who's waiting to hear about the Irish schools from AB. So far I'm in limbo with a waitlist to RCSI, and still waiting on the other three.

But I'm really interested to learn a bit about what you know of other UK schools. I would jump at the chance to study in the UK/Ireland, and definitely have no misgivings to the tune of "will I be able to get back to NA", because I think I'd be happy living over there.

Is it possible for NA students to study in the UK? The answer seems to be obviously yes, but I thought there were specific UK exams that had to be written to be considered.

If you get the chance, I'd like to hear what you know about what it takes for a North American to study medicine in the UK.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[jane2]

There are lots of international students studying here, and it's not hard to stay here afterwards either. As long as you have been to a UK med school you don't need to sit the extra exams (PLAB) and I think it is also quite easy to get a visa to stay here.

You need to make your application through UCAS and you might have to sit an entrance exam (eg BMAT for Imperial and UCL, MSAT for any specific 'graduate entry' courses you might pick - these courses are nothing compared to MSAT and people rarely actually prepare for them for more than say an hour the night before - honestly!).

Sorry if you felt I pressed your U of L point a bit far but it's just I've never before even heard anyone mention it as a reason to apply / not to apply anywhere, and as others have now said, the split is basically meaningless. You said that you thought the split might mean your 'research ties' were obviously less established - and this is simply not true in any sense. I didn't want you to get put off applying for false reasons.

 

[eastofnorth]

Thanks for the clarifications, Ramekin -- that's precisely what I needed to hear! =)

I think I can answer both your questions and Zazoo's at the same time though -- with regards to research and medicine. I currently work in the pharmaceutical industry. Here in the US, there are possibilities for blended degrees (PhD/MD or MPH/MD or MBA/MD)... and to be trained as a "clinician scientist" is a very difficult but lauded academic career. Since I already have a bachelor's degree, any intercalated degree in the UK would be a masters or PhD. I am not especially interested in either, though. My interest in research is purely personal, and I don't need a degree to justify my desire to ask and answer questions. I love learning, point blank!

Since all you know of me is this thread, you probably think I'm pretty obsessed about research. On the contrary, like i mentioned to Jane, we've only been pushing the research aspect because we're talking about Imperial college in particular. The strongest pro of studying at Imperial (or any London school, for that matter) to me is the research there. For all of my other schools, I drew a line in my "short list" to separate those having a research program in reproductive science, period, and began to weight them based on other, more important aspects, like curriculum and community.

Research and medicine go hand in hand, in my opinion. A good clinician is one who understands the science of the body but also knows how to form testable hypotheses about what is going on (or wrong!). I am pursuing a medical degree rather than a PhD because I am much more motivated in a diagnostic and clinical field than I am in one that relies solely on non-social experiments. I feel my abilities to connect and help individuals is underutilized in solely academic position. This is a personal choice based on personal experiences. =)

I apologize for the false impression most of you are getting, since this thread is a very narrow discussion which is belaboring very specific issues regarding medicine and UK schools. The heart and soul of my desire to be a medical doctor is really quite simple -- healing others is as second-nature to me as clarifying science. I do believe it's possible to do and be both. It may not be the best return on your investment in medical school (LOANS ) but a clinician scientist is one of the oldest and most personally rewarding (albeit stressful) positions in the world. And other than wanting to be financially responsible and someday own my own house, money means very little to me.

Obviously I'm considering returning to the pharma industry, but I feel very strongly on being trained as a clinical doctor. I can't predict where I might end up, but I am trying to maximize my choices while I can. Thanks to all of you for getting involved in this discussion and helping to shed some light!

katherine


PS, Zazoo: I know the researchers aren't all based in Imperial. I'm talking about specific researchers at Imperial whose work interests me. As opposed to the hundreds of scientists all over London who are doing work of equal importance that do not interest me. *grin*

Collaborations between postgraduate research institutes (whether allied to the University or a particular college) tend to be independent of the University of London anyway, so it wouldn't affect these relationships in any way or form. May i ask where your research interests lie?

 

[eastofnorth]

If you get the chance, I'd like to hear what you know about what it takes for a North American to study medicine in the UK.

Thanks a bunch.

Jane is fresh from the experience of applying to schools, so she can obviously give more personal thoughts on that aspect. It is more difficult to attend a UK school than an Irish school for NA residents. You must essentially show that it is not a "back-up" plan -- that you are capable of attending school in your own country -- and illustrate exactly why you would like to attend school in the UK in a personal statement or interview.

For myself, I am much more interested in social medicine. UK relies more on diagnostic power than tests, partly due to how the US (for example) practices defensive medicine. For example: I went to a doctor earlier this year presenting a strong outer ear infection in my left ear that spread to area tissue (swelling of skin, lymph nodes, extreme pain, loss of hearing, etc.). My ear was so swollen, he was unable to look inside. He ignored my history (bad idea), did not ask about how my symptoms were presented over time (another bad idea), and depended his entire diagnosis on my answer to "Do you grit your teeth at night?" Yes = TMJ. Well, since he was so adamant I had TMJ, why did he prescribe a weak antibiotic (amoxicillan, another bad idea for someone allergic to penicillan) and a weak painkiller (indomethacin)? Just in case. That's defensive medicine for you! Slowly decreasing the efficacy of the world's most important antibiotics...

My experience with that doctor (very bad!) is unfortunately common place, and most people don't actually demand/request clinicians who listen to them (who practice good medicine!!) rather than hand them an answer and a pill. On the other hand, I saw a ENT specialist later that week who gave me a completely different experience -- within a day I was put on the strongest antibiotic available and given rigorous and well-rounded treatment for the infection -- which, having spread intracellular to MY HEAD (re: area swelling), was obviously high-risk. Medicine is such an individual experience. It really is. Diagnostics is an art as much of a science, and the artistic flavor is often due to the training we had in school/residency as well as the cultural biases and public health concerns. That will change from country to country.

My reasons for possibly staying in the UK are quite personal (I have a pretty significant other there ), but my interest in studying there started well before that friendship. I am happy to share all of the information I've collected. I know when I first started, it was very overwhelming --- but there are plenty of scattered resources out there to help you narrow it all down! I'm happy that I waited on applying last year, because all the work I've done since have really helped clarify and strengthen my desire to train in the UK. And being highly motivated obviously makes for a much richer and more satisfying experience!!

Best of luck on your pending applications.