bailey728

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 17, 2006
18
1
Philadelphia, PA
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
Hello all~

I know this has been touched upon somewhat in the archives, but I had a few questions I couldn't find answers to regarding how to list experience on the VMCAS...

I read that research counts as vet experience. Does that include non-animal research? I have worked for many years in a human research setting (clinical trials and epidemiology -- no bench studies). What I've learned in human medicine is applicable to how these types of studies are done in vet medicine, but would it really go under the "vet experience" section?

Also, when schools list their minimum vet experience guidelines (e.g. we want XX hrs minimum), are they only looking at this specific part of the VMCAS? or do they also include the animal/work experience sections if they seem relevant enough?

Thanks again for any info :)
 

Ranger7

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
May 11, 2006
17
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
I think it would go under the "work" category. I'd break it down like this:

1. Did I work with a veterinarian?
Yes>>>Vet experience
No>>>Go to 2

2. Did I work with animals?
Yes>>>Animal Experience
No>>>Work Experience

Edit: For your second question, vet schools want XX hours working in the veterinary field, so you know you are in the right place. Other work experience is important to show you as a rounded person, but that is not included in the veterinary work. Also, some schools recommend or require some of your recommendations to be from a veterinarian.
 

spikey

penn vet 2011
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2006
196
0
new jersey
Status
Veterinary Student
i got the impression that if you worked with a professional on reasearch, that it counted as vet experience.

i have done research on horseshoe crabs with my professor at college, and from the directions at VMCAS, i thought that fit more under vet experience then animal.

what about others that have done this?
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
spikey said:
i got the impression that if you worked with a professional on reasearch, that it counted as vet experience.

i have done research on horseshoe crabs with my professor at college, and from the directions at VMCAS, i thought that fit more under vet experience then animal.

what about others that have done this?
It's only vet experience if you worked with a vet- End of Story.

I did some 5 years of neuro research, published, etc. and I didn't put it under vet experience and I think that's how it should be. BUT....I think some people sort of abuse this research w/ a vet thing, in that they use it to inflate....some schools care, some don't....In one of my interviews one of the interviewers informed me that his son didn't get into vet school the first time and that he did a masters in a lab with a vet and that he did so (and the dad/interviewer thought it was a great thing) b/c it uber pumped up his "w/ a vet hours" (I thought this was a little silly and odd seeing that if his father was a vet, he really should have a soild "knowledge of the profession"...and especially in his parents eyes...shouldn't need much more experience in that particular vein.

I shadowed at a lab animal facility where I saw and did tons of stuff....however I did it mostly with techs (many VERY skilled)...more often then not the veterinarians in these places mostly do paperwork regarding protocals etc., to make final descisions about euthanizing, and to handle emergencies. In the end I wasn't able to use that experience to get a recommendation b/c I wasn't directly with the doctors ......Not the animals ones anyway....I probably spent more time with the chief cardiothoraic surgeon.... That was kind of a goofy situation in all honesty.

If you did research, they are likely to ask you about it in your interviews....all of mine did and at some length, so you'll be able to get your experience there represented.

I think the bulk of your vet experience should come from a more clinical setting unless maybe if you are soley focused on becoming a research or other form of bench vet. Just my two cents there.
 

dvm'08

Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
May 6, 2006
172
10
Status
Resident [Any Field]
HorseyVet said:
It's only vet experience if you worked with a vet- End of Story.

I did some 5 years of neuro research, published, etc. and I didn't put it under vet experience and I think that's how it should be. BUT....I think some people sort of abuse this research w/ a vet thing, in that they use it to inflate....some schools care, some don't....In one of my interviews one of the interviewers informed me that his son didn't get into vet school the first time and that he did a masters in a lab with a vet and that he did so (and the dad/interviewer thought it was a great thing) b/c it uber pumped up his "w/ a vet hours" (I thought this was a little silly and odd seeing that if his father was a vet, he really should have a soild "knowledge of the profession"...and especially in his parents eyes...shouldn't need much more experience in that particular vein.

I shadowed at a lab animal facility where I saw and did tons of stuff....however I did it mostly with techs (many VERY skilled)...more often then not the veterinarians in these places mostly do paperwork regarding protocals etc., to make final descisions about euthanizing, and to handle emergencies. In the end I wasn't able to use that experience to get a recommendation b/c I wasn't directly with the doctors ......Not the animals ones anyway....I probably spent more time with the chief cardiothoraic surgeon.... That was kind of a goofy situation in all honesty.

If you did research, they are likely to ask you about it in your interviews....all of mine did and at some length, so you'll be able to get your experience there represented.

I think the bulk of your vet experience should come from a more clinical setting unless maybe if you are soley focused on becoming a research or other form of bench vet. Just my two cents there.

you just couldn't resist running down your resume for us eh?? oh my how you're qualified though........................
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
dvm'08 said:
you just couldn't resist running down your resume for us eh?? oh my how you're qualified though........................
I guess you couldn't resist trying to make some sort of put-down comment....

I really thought the 2 experiences I shared pertained directly to the thread topic. The lab animal thing was pretty much more of a warning to others to be careful about where they put their precious time b/c although that experience was very interesting and educational, it burned me and put me in a really bad situation at the end. I was hoping to make others aware of it so they didn't repeat my mistake or a least to draw attention to that kind of situation so that others can make a more informed descision about where they want to spend their time.
 

Quaggi

Member
10+ Year Member
Feb 28, 2006
103
0
MA
Status
Veterinary Student
StealthDog said:
I did summer research on prairie voles, and counted it as animal experience. If there wasn't a vet involved in the research, how could it be considered vet experience?
I'm pretty sure I remember that VMCAS defined vet experience as working with animals in the presence of a vet or other health professional (cant remember the exact wording)...so i think a PhD in some biology/animal related field would probably count, if the research was done on animals. you could proabably even count working with a vet tech, as long as they havent changed the wording on VMCAS since last year. (for example, there are lots of wildlife clinics/rehab centers that dont have a regular vet but if you volunteered there you would still count it as veterinary)

Bailey - as far as human research, i wouldnt count that as vet experience or animal experience, but theres no reason you cant talk about it and show how significant it was to you in other ways. if you feel that it helped your future career as a vet in any way, then make sure to let the adcoms know that!

Horseyvet said:
I think the bulk of your vet experience should come from a more clinical setting unless maybe if you are soley focused on becoming a research or other form of bench vet. Just my two cents there.
to Horseyvet and the other people probably reading this thread and freaking out about vet hours - dont worry! i think as long as what you're doing is significant in teaching you about working with animals and what the many aspects of vet med are, you should be fine. whats most important is that you have a range of experiences in different areas, not necessarily that the bulk of it is clinical. (in fact, since there is such a shortage of research vets out there, all other things equal they will most likely take the more research oriented applicant, not the one whos spent all their time at a small animal clinic)

hope that helps :)

Bari
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
Quaggi said:
I'm pretty sure I remember that VMCAS defined vet experience as working with animals in the presence of a vet or other health professional (cant remember the exact wording)...so i think a PhD in some biology/animal related field would probably count, if the research was done on animals. you could proabably even count working with a vet tech, as long as they havent changed the wording on VMCAS since last year. (for example, there are lots of wildlife clinics/rehab centers that dont have a regular vet but if you volunteered there you would still count it as veterinary)
If the wording is that loose then I guess it's up to the individual. In my research experiences I just wasn't comfortable saying that it was veterinary just because it involved animals as models. Yes animals were used but the goal of the research didn't have a remotely veterinary focus. I have a buddy right now who works all day long with mouse pancreas but never touches or sees a living or dead intact mouse....to me there's no way that's veterinary experience.
 

spikey

penn vet 2011
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2006
196
0
new jersey
Status
Veterinary Student
Quaggi said:
I'm pretty sure I remember that VMCAS defined vet experience as working with animals in the presence of a vet or other health professional (cant remember the exact wording)...so i think a PhD in some biology/animal related field would probably count, if the research was done on animals. you could proabably even count working with a vet tech, as long as they havent changed the wording on VMCAS since last year. (for example, there are lots of wildlife clinics/rehab centers that dont have a regular vet but if you volunteered there you would still count it as veterinary)
my research is with Horseshoe Crabs, and on their feeding ecology. i am doing it with a professor of conservation biology at my college. so thats why i thought with animals + professional = vet experience from the wording at VMCAS. :confused:
 

Quaggi

Member
10+ Year Member
Feb 28, 2006
103
0
MA
Status
Veterinary Student
spikey said:
my research is with Horseshoe Crabs, and on their feeding ecology. i am doing it with a professor of conservation biology at my college. so thats why i thought with animals + professional = vet experience from the wording at VMCAS. :confused:
i would count that as veterinary. im sure some people around here will disagree, but conservation biology is really important to vet med these days. i doubt it matters either way though, experience is experience.
 

chemokine

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Apr 25, 2006
19
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
When I was applying I called a number of schools to ask what they considered vet experience. Don't just listen to what the instructions on VMCAS say as they aren't always the same as what the schools want. The general concensus of the schools I called and applied to (MSU, Missisippi State, Western, Iowa, Kansas) were that if you didn't do the work under the supervision of a vet then it isn't vet experience. So if you worked in a lab animal facility and did clinical work with the techs and the vet was only there peripherally but in a supervisory capacity then that counts as vet experience. But if you did research under the supervision of a PhD or MD that doesn't count as vet experience because they aren't a vet.

Key thing here is to call the admissions office of the schools you are applying to (not VMCAS) and find out what they want. Some schools categorize experience differently then others. I didn't do this the first time I applied and I didn't get in, anywhere. But I went back and did everything right and I had no problems the second time around.
 

Quaggi

Member
10+ Year Member
Feb 28, 2006
103
0
MA
Status
Veterinary Student
chemokine said:
Key thing here is to call the admissions office of the schools you are applying to (not VMCAS) and find out what they want. Some schools categorize experience differently then others. I didn't do this the first time I applied and I didn't get in, anywhere. But I went back and did everything right and I had no problems the second time around.
no offense, but i think everyone here is getting worked up about little details. chances are, the reason you didnt get in anywhere last year wasn't because you wrote experiences down in the wrong category. doesnt that sound a little ridiculous?

and for the record, i counted my research job with a microbiology PhD as vet experience without calling to check with adcoms, (no vet there, just a professor and some cows) and i got into 5 vet schools this year on my first try. so go figure.

not trying to list my resume, just saying that it really doesnt matter. put the time spent worrying about categories into improving admissions essays or something else worthwhile.
 

chemokine

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Apr 25, 2006
19
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
Quaggi said:
no offense, but i think everyone here is getting worked up about little details. chances are, the reason you didnt get in anywhere last year wasn't because you wrote experiences down in the wrong category. doesnt that sound a little ridiculous?

and for the record, i counted my research job with a microbiology PhD as vet experience without calling to check with adcoms, (no vet there, just a professor and some cows) and i got into 5 vet schools this year on my first try. so go figure.

not trying to list my resume, just saying that it really doesnt matter. put the time spent worrying about categories into improving admissions essays or something else worthwhile.
I got into vet school in this past admissions cycle and will be attending MSU this fall. I speak from my perspective. I talked to the admissions people at the schools I applied to discuss reapplication (04-05 application cycle) and this was one of the things that came up. The details matter. Know everything you can about the schools you are applying to and don't be afraid to talk to people in the admissions office. THat is what they are there for. I would wager that if you have decent grades an important 1/3 of the battle of getting in to vet school is packaging. Details like your personal statement and how you package your expereinces matter. If you cannot focus, categorize and communicate your experiences (even though they may be good ones ) how can the admissions people really distinguish your application from anyone else's?

The fact that you counted your research experience with a PhD under vet experience has no bearing. Maybe the school you applied to doesn't care. The point is to check with the school and see what THEY want.

I'm not saying the only reason I didn't get into vet school on my first try was because i categorized my experiences incorrectly. But that certainly didn't help me. If you apply to schools that use points for ranking applicants the name of the game is to get as many points as possible and make it easy for them to give you those points. You might be worthy of some more points but the admissions people overlooked it because you didn't follow their format.
 

adenovirus

PUSVM c/o 2010
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2006
78
0
42
Indiana
www.myspace.com
Status
Pre-Medical
Vet experience is only working or volunteering for a veterinarian in the traditional and clinical sense. I did an MS at a vet school working for a DVM, PhD researcher/vet school professor. A lot of my research was done using mice and was based on mouse models. I listed this experience all under Animal Experience despite the work being done AT a vet school WITH a vet (and other vets, too for that matter). This is how it should be done, and if you don't do it this way then be prepared to explain why. As has been mentioned above, the intent of drawing a distinction between animal and veterinarian experience is to show that you have at least a sense of what the TRADITIONAL clinical role of the veterinarian in society is. Research does not count as veterinarian experience, unless it is done in a clinical (none lab bench) setting with a veterinarian.

Be careful not to double count experience hours.
 

StealthDog

U of MN 2010
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Feb 17, 2006
575
6
34
minnesota.facebook.com
Status
Veterinarian
As has been mentioned above, the intent of drawing a distinction between animal and veterinarian experience is to show that you have at least a sense of what the TRADITIONAL clinical role of the veterinarian in society is.
I agree- otherwise, why would they have a distinction at all? I feel like putting ConBio research, etc into vet experience is just padding your "vet experience" hours. Not a problem if you already have lots of hours in a clinic, but if your research is your only "vet experience", that indicates that you should get some clinic experience before you apply. I know I personally am not interested in working in a clinic, so I skimped on my clinic hours before applying, and I'm pretty sure it hurt my app.

Good luck deciding what's best for you!
 

OceanAngel

NCSU c/o 2011
10+ Year Member
May 15, 2006
91
0
Durham, NC
Status
Non-Student
I really agree with everyone who is saying contact your schools of choice. I think it really varies quite a bit, which can make it frustrating especially if you will be applying to more than one school. However, I have found at my particular top choice that research, regardless if it is done with or without a vet and with or without animals, is veterinary experience. Under the supervision of a vet or Ph.D. scientist, it is vet experience. The well-rounded applicant, I think we can all agree, is the most desired. It is very evident that research based veterinarains are in high demand and by having research, whatever kind of research experience, you show that you know what it takes to do research and be a part of the research community. No matter the subject of research there is a common theme on how it is conducted and what it takes to run a lab or be part of a working lab. The only difference for animal-based labs with model animals is IACUC.
Animal experience is simply vounteering at a shelter, showing/breeding animals, being a pet-sitter, equestrian activities etc. Work experience is simply a supplement to your application indicating that you had a life outside vet med., whether or not you needed to work while attending school and so on and often has nothing to do with animals at all though I guess it may.

Again, though I think it all depends on the school. I am simply stating this info based on my schools I have decided upon and nothing else.
 
OP
B

bailey728

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 17, 2006
18
1
Philadelphia, PA
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
Thank you everyone for your replies. I appreciate your taking the time to let me know what you think. I had assumed what the majority said - that unless you're working under a vet it doesn't count as vet experience. What threw me was that some of the posts in a previous thread said to count any kind of research experience as vet experience. I guess it does depend on what a particular school thinks as a few people mentioned. Seems to make things a little difficult if some schools are defining things differently than VMCAS, although it all gets sorted out in the end.

The reason I was interested in the specifics of exactly where to put each thing is that some schools' requirements for # of hours of vet experience are much higher than others. I didn't want to not make the minimums if I was considering something as vet experience that shouldn't have been.

Thanks again! Reading all your thoughts was very helpful!
 

ginkogirl

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
May 4, 2006
65
2
PA resident
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
I've been thinking about these issues also...

My research expierence is with a PhD (not a vet) and involves microorganisms, so strictly speaking I would have to put it under "work expierence" rather than animal or vet expierence. What bothers me, however, is the fact that this work will be listed alongside my work-study job, for instance. It doesn't seem to truly relate the importance, practical expierence, and time commitment of my research.

In these days when vet schools consider research so highly on an application (all the schools I have talked to have seemed very enthusiastic about it), you would think VMCAS would include a special "research expierence" section. Oh well, maybe someday to help out future applicants in our position...
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
ginkogirl said:
In these days when vet schools consider research so highly on an application (all the schools I have talked to have seemed very enthusiastic about it), you would think VMCAS would include a special "research expierence" section. Oh well, maybe someday to help out future applicants in our position...
This isn't a direct response to you ginko, but a comment to a common theme....

I think a lot of people use (abuse) the research specifically as a way to cater to vet schools to make themselves more attractive as an applicant....People do this the same way they do large animal experience. Irregardless of whether or not the applicant plans to do research or go into large animal, they will say that's their intention because they know that there's a need. I've known more then a few people that flat out lie about their intentions in interviews and personal statements. Very few people that I talk to really want to do research or any other kind of bench work for a living-- If you did research, great, but if you're not planning on doing it as the bulk of your career....what's all the stress about making sure it's prominently presented?
 

spikey

penn vet 2011
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2006
196
0
new jersey
Status
Veterinary Student
HorseyVet said:
I think a lot of people use (abuse) the research specifically as a way to cater to vet schools to make themselves more attractive as an applicant....People do this the same way they do large animal experience. Irregardless of whether or not the applicant plans to do research or go into large animal, they will say that's their intention because they know that there's a need. I've known more then a few people that flat out lie about their intentions in interviews and personal statements. Very few people that I talk to really want to do research or any other kind of bench work for a living-- If you did research, great, but if you're not planning on doing it as the bulk of your career....what's all the stress about making sure it's prominently presented?
i completely understand what you mean. i did research for my college in order to graduate with distinction in my program. i also did it to see if it was something i would want to do for a living. i know for sure its not. i give props to anyone that can cause it is SO not for me. i think by doing i can be better apt to say that research is important, and i understand that, but i cant do it. not for me. :)
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
spikey said:
i completely understand what you mean. i did research for my college in order to graduate with distinction in my program. i also did it to see if it was something i would want to do for a living. i know for sure its not. i give props to anyone that can cause it is SO not for me. i think by doing i can be better apt to say that research is important, and i understand that, but i cant do it. not for me. :)

lol...that's sort of what I said in my interviews:

Q: "What did you learn from your research?"
A: "That I didn't want to do research."
 

ReinaDeLuz

UF CVM Class of 2010!
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Mar 22, 2006
107
0
Florida
Status
Veterinary Student
HorseyVet said:
If you did research, great, but if you're not planning on doing it as the bulk of your career....what's all the stress about making sure it's prominently presented?
I don't think it is at all an abuse to make your research experiences figure prominently in your application, whether or not you plan on pursuing research as a career, if you happened to have dedicated a significant amount of time to this pursuit.

Say you wanted to get your feet wet in research, as its one of the areas that the vet school you want to get into stresses you get experience in. You apply for a scholarship to do research, get it, and then find out its not for you. You still have obligations to fulfill, and darnit you spent over a year and a half slogging through tedious work you're not passionate about. You can be sure I didn't lie about my future career intentions, but I *did* stress the amount of time I had spent doing research and what I got out of the experience. Without any twinges of conscience. I'm 100% positive it helped me get into vet school, and even if thats all the experience turned out to be useful for (it wasnt) - I'm not going to be made to feel guilty for getting credit for all the hard work I did.
 

OceanAngel

NCSU c/o 2011
10+ Year Member
May 15, 2006
91
0
Durham, NC
Status
Non-Student
ReinaDeLuz said:
I'm not going to be made to feel guilty for getting credit for all the hard work I did.
I could not agree more!! Just because research is often a good way to get numerous amounts of hours, simply because in order to accomplish anything in research you must put in a lot of time, does not mean the time spent should not get the credit it deserves. Research is tedious, hard, time consuming and often mentally draining and is a vital part of veterinary medicine so whether or not you plan on doing any kind of research with your veterinary degree it is an invaluable experience that should not be frowned upon simply because it gives an applicant lots of hours. Admissions committees are not stupid. They see where the hours are coming from. Just like they would be more likely to accept someone with fewer hours in lots of areas than someone with tons of hours in small animal it is the same thing with tons of hours in research; if thats all you have then its probably not enough.
 

ginkogirl

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
May 4, 2006
65
2
PA resident
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
HorseyVet said:
I think a lot of people use (abuse) the research specifically as a way to cater to vet schools to make themselves more attractive as an applicant....People do this the same way they do large animal experience. Irregardless of whether or not the applicant plans to do research or go into large animal, they will say that's their intention because they know that there's a need. I've known more then a few people that flat out lie about their intentions in interviews and personal statements. Very few people that I talk to really want to do research or any other kind of bench work for a living-- If you did research, great, but if you're not planning on doing it as the bulk of your career....what's all the stress about making sure it's prominently presented?
I'll start by disagreeing with your comment that very few people want to do research...you just need to be around the right people. I work mostly with bio grad students and it seems like nearly all of them plan on doing research as a career (as opposed to teaching, sales, med or vet school, etc.)

Secondly, I'll second ReginaDeLuz and OceanAngel's comments regarding taking credit for research hours on VMCAS, and additionally I will add another thought. Coincidently, I was just talking to my research advisor today about vet school, recommendations, etc., and she brought up a good point. The point being that the skills learned from research can be used in nearly any field and that vet schools may view research so positively because of the character traits that a successful research career indicates. It would show that the applicant is an effective problem-solver, can communicate verbally and in writing, has good interpersonal skills and may also indicate maturity and determination.

With this being said, I think that a prominant display of research hours is in no way an abuse of VMCAS, rather just shows that you have had a successful research career (indicating all the character traits listed above), and for those of us who are considering veterinary medical research, that our research career in the future will likely be just as successful.
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
ginkogirl said:
I'll start by disagreeing with your comment that very few people want to do research...you just need to be around the right people. I work mostly with bio grad students and it seems like nearly all of them plan on doing research as a career (as opposed to teaching, sales, med or vet school, etc.)
I was refering to those currently attending or applying to vet school. Most grad students are already doing research and likely did research already as an undergrad. Most bio undergrads in the more medical (non-environmental) upper level classes either are going into a medical profession or plan to go to grad school---those wanting to go to grad school are (or should be) doing research already.

ginkogirl said:
Secondly, I'll second ReginaDeLuz and OceanAngel's comments regarding taking credit for research hours on VMCAS, and additionally I will add another thought. Coincidently, I was just talking to my research advisor today about vet school, recommendations, etc., and she brought up a good point. The point being that the skills learned from research can be used in nearly any field and that vet schools may view research so positively because of the character traits that a successful research career indicates. It would show that the applicant is an effective problem-solver, can communicate verbally and in writing, has good interpersonal skills and may also indicate maturity and determination.
Yes and no. It always depends on the capacity in which one is "doing research" or "working in a lab." Some people have little to no real input on projects and are in really glorified techs/dishwashers. Regardless of the capacity it all goes down as "having done research." I think it's good to know how research functions on a day to day level but honestly if your goal is to be a clinical vet I think there are countless better uses of your time that will help one to be a better vet in the future.

ginkogirl said:
With this being said, I think that a prominant display of research hours is in no way an abuse of VMCAS, rather just shows that you have had a successful research career (indicating all the character traits listed above), and for those of us who are considering veterinary medical research, that our research career in the future will likely be just as successful.
Like I said...if veterinary research or some simmilar sort of veterinary bench work is your goal...then sure it makes total sense to indicate that you have experience there and that continuing research is your intention. For a lot of people the research is really a resume building endeavour and I think if that's the case then it's "wrong" to act like you want to do research the rest of your life just so you get into vet school b/c you convince someone that you'll eventually go on to fill that need.
 

youthman

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jan 31, 2005
215
1
Status
HorseyVet said:
It always depends on the capacity in which one is "doing research" or "working in a lab." Some people have little to no real input on projects and are in really glorified techs/dishwashers. Regardless of the capacity it all goes down as "having done research."

That'd be me! Seems to me you guys are talking about different levels of employment here. I work in an awesome, BSL-2 to BSL-4 veterinary research facility, but also don't know if I could put it down as veterinary experience or research experience. Do I get an idea of the "environment" of veterinary research? Yes. Do I actually participate in the research? Not if that means scrubbing in on surgeries or analyzing data. Vet students and grad students get to do that. Do I work with any veterinarians? No. There is a definite standard of protocol to follow here, which includes a chain of command for each project (and we have on average 10 different projects going on at the same time).
 

spikey

penn vet 2011
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2006
196
0
new jersey
Status
Veterinary Student
HorseyVet said:
lol...that's sort of what I said in my interviews:

Q: "What did you learn from your research?"
A: "That I didn't want to do research."
thats SO going to be me too :D

i also agree with ginkogirl: research has helped me learn a lot of skills i may have not developed otherwise.
 

HorseyVet

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Feb 22, 2006
399
0
Status
Other Health Professions Student
youthman said:
That'd be me! Seems to me you guys are talking about different levels of employment here. I work in an awesome, BSL-2 to BSL-4 veterinary research facility, but also don't know if I could put it down as veterinary experience or research experience. Do I get an idea of the "environment" of veterinary research? Yes. Do I actually participate in the research? Not if that means scrubbing in on surgeries or analyzing data. Vet students and grad students get to do that. Do I work with any veterinarians? No. There is a definite standard of protocol to follow here, which includes a chain of command for each project (and we have on average 10 different projects going on at the same time).
Hrm...I'm not 100% but that sounds a lot like what I did when I shadowed a lab animal facility (I could be wrong, so I'm sorry if I am)....I watched and assisted on a bunch of surgeries (mostly terminal) that were in the experimental animal testing phase for human procedures....so that part was really more research...sort of....where I would say that that experience was different from yours is that these surgeries were for a bunch of different PIs...aka I wasn't at all "on a particular project." The rest of the time I helped with rounds, saking, preping rodent necropsy (cutting them up for pathology to look at), and a few minor things like teeth trims here and there....

When I "did research" I was offically on a project, sat for lab meetings, discussed results and future experiements, ordered animals and materials for my project and analyzed my own data....

Really does sond like you have something a little in between there in terms of "vet xp" and "research xp"......I think I might really be unsure on how to list that too if I was you...heck I might consider splitting the hours and just making a note about it somewhere...I think they'd appreciate the honesty AND that you're able to see that veterinary is "such an amazing and multi-faceted field" ...lol....they love that...

my final two cents though is not analyzing data= not research....but like I said sounds like you are getting the full "spirit of research"...so yeah, it's a tuffy...

If you're planning on getting a recommendation from someone there you could always talk to them and see what capacity they think you are...obviously you the worst thing you could do is say something that differs from what the recommendation says...

I hope that all was at least somewhat helpful..
 

kate_g

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Apr 4, 2006
813
0
Status
Post Doc
HorseyVet said:
Really does sond like you have something a little in between there in terms of "vet xp" and "research xp"......I think I might really be unsure on how to list that too if I was you...
VMCAS only has "veterinary", "animal", and "employment" experience categories. In the instructions for veterinary experience they say you should list research - the whole issue above was, what if your research isn't "veterinary" (i.e. actually working with a veterinarian). Youthman doesn't have to decide whether to list that experience as veterinary *or* research, because there's only one category and it clearly fits. Problem solved!

BTW to weigh in on an issue from several posts back, there's nothing wrong with listing all the research you did, even if you don't plan on doing any more. That shows you tried it out, got the experience, are a well-rounded person, etc. Clearly you're going to list it somewhere. The things I think HorseyVet was objecting to were people who listed research with a PhD advisor as "veterinary" just to boost their vet hours, and the people who ingenuously take advantage of the fact that vet schools are desperate to get more people into research and teaching. That is, pretending you want to do research as a career (i.e. write a personal statement all about your passion for science and teaching) *solely* because it increases your chances of getting in, when your actual goal is private clinical practice. That's *lying*, and it's wrong no matter how much time you spent at the bench as an undergrad.
 

dvm'08

Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
May 6, 2006
172
10
Status
Resident [Any Field]
kate_g said:
pretending you want to do research as a career (i.e. write a personal statement all about your passion for science and teaching) *solely* because it increases your chances of getting in, when your actual goal is private clinical practice. That's *lying*, and it's wrong no matter how much time you spent at the bench as an undergrad.
Oh please. There is no morality in vet school admission processes. Everybody tells ADCOMS what they want to hear - you'd be stupid not to. So i fail to see the problem if applicants are saying they love research, when infact they want to do clincial work. Big deal. The same goes for listing research hours in with your vet hours. Why the hell wouldn't you?

Until vet schools come up with a better way to screen applicants and get rid of the stupid volunteer/veterinary experience hour requirement completely, people are going to keep padding thier applicaitions with more and more hours of work experience etc. (legit hours or not) and, again, why wouldnt they?

Nobody said vet school admissions is a fair and just process........
 

kate_g

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Apr 4, 2006
813
0
Status
Post Doc
dvm'08 said:
Oh please. There is no morality in vet school admission processes.
Heh... OK, we can leave right vs. wrong out of it - I'm all for telling adcoms what I know they want to hear, but personally draw the line at lying. I'll just say that anyone who is so unlikely to get into vet school on the merit of their real experiences and honest career goals, yet so desperate to get in that they fudge hours and claim undying passion for whatever the underserved-market-du-jour happens to be, is... really lame, and worthy of ridicule. (If for no other reason than that they may well have more success in applications than me, making me feel conflicted about refusing to be a slimier individual... :D )