WAMC 524, 3.9 undergrad, 3.3 post-bacc, research heavy

[heartman1998]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Should I build my school list based on my cumulative undergrad GPA (3.7) or just my post-bacc GPA (3.3)? Which of these schools should I not bother with?

• GPA:
  • AMCAS calculated: cGPA: 3.7, sGPA: 3.7
  • undergrad GPA: 3.9 engineering
  • grad GPA: 3.9 engineering
  • postbacc GPA: 3.3
  • ******Please note the low post-bacc GPA*****: I was required to work full-time due to COVID related reasons. I explain it in my secondaries with the hope that my post-bac GPA will be taken in context with my high undergrad GPA, MCAT, and ability to carry out independent research, as demonstrated by my publication record. But IDK if schools will pre-filter me or forgive this.
• MCAT: 524 (132/130/132/130)
• Reapplicant: I applied late last year (Oct complete) with insufficient volunteering experience. Folks here warned me, but I did not listen then. I've taken your feedback to heart this time and dedicated more time to volunteering. I have also significantly improved my writing.
• Residence: California resident (green card)
• Ethnicity: ORM
• Undergrad: public university, engineering
• Clinical volunteering: 750 hours (EMT + scribe)
• Non-clinical volunteering: 1000 hours teaching + 250 hours at care home
• Research experience and productivity
  • Old engineering career: few thousand hours, 20+ pubs
  • medical research: 1000 hours, 5 pubs
• Shadowing: 200+ hours across multiple specialties
• Other extracurricular activities:
  • A successful research career in my engineering field. I want to work interdisciplinarily as a physician-engineer
• MD School List: My weaknesses are low post-bacc GPA and focus on research over service.
  • Columbia
  • NYU
  • Cornell
  • Sinai
  • Einstein
  • Harvard
  • Penn
  • UCSF
  • Stanford
  • UCLA
  • Keck
  • Georgetown
  • George Washington
  • Boston University
  • Tufts
  • U of Chicago
  • Northwestern
  • Pitt
  • UMich
  • Case
  • Vanderbilt
  • Hopkins
  • Emory
  • Yale
  • WashU
  • UC Irvine
  • UC San Diego
  • U of Colorado

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Old thread

WAMC 524/3.7, international, USA resident

cGPA: 3.7, sGPA: 3.65, grad GPA: 3.9 MCAT: 524 (132/130/132/130) Residence: Citizen of Asian country, California resident (green card) Ethnicity: ORM Undergrad: Berkeley, engineering Clinical volunteering: 250 hours Research experience and productivity Old engineering career: few thousand...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Faha]

You could potentially receive interviews at any of those schools. I suggest adding these schools:
Hofstra
New York Medical College
Rochester
UMass
Dartmouth
Jefferson
Brown
USF Morsani
Cincinnati
St. Louis
Iowa

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Eh. You might be better served by doing some more courses in a DIY postbacc. 3.3 isn't impressing anyone; you might get a little slack for working full time and all but not much.

 

[heartman1998]

Eh. You might be better served by doing some more courses in a DIY postbacc. 3.3 isn't impressing anyone; you might get a little slack for working full time and all but not much.

Isn't it too late for that now? I'm applying this cycle. I've already submitted my primary and will be submitting secondaries shortly.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Last 30-60 credit hours matter to many schools. If you took your postbac in 2023, you are a bit beyond the pandemic, so adcoms may be less forgiving of any COVID-19 reasoning. What did you take?

 

[heartman1998]

Last 30-60 credit hours matter to many schools.

Do you know which schools on my list do this? I'll just drop those schools.

What did you take?

Chem and bio courses. These were not required for my major.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Do you know which schools on my list do this? I'll just drop those schools.

Chem and bio courses. These were not required for my major.

Sorry, I don't know for the medical schools. It's common among dental and pharmacy programs, but the medical school admissions folks I have talked with have mentioned they can consider it among other factors. Why it's not mentioned in their MSAR entries, I can't say. Contact the schools or review the podcasts (Accepted, All Access Medical School Admissions, TMDSAS).

 

[heartman1998]

@Goro @eigen @Med Ed @GoSpursGo @LindaAccepted @Fluidity of Movement tagging you since you expressed interest in following my application last cycle. I would be grateful for any new advice here.

 

[eigen]

Non-clinical volunteering: 1000 hours teaching + 250 hours at care home

Can you give some more details on this? Who did you teach / what were you teaching? What were you doing at the care home? Neither of these immediately jump out as things I'd consider robust service, but context matters and I may be misinterpreting.

postbacc GPA(2023): 3.3

This is going to be hard to overcome. Your most recent grades are usually the ones given the greatest weight. How many hours was your post-bac, and what was the course composition? A downward trend is concerning, and your UG (3.9) to grad (3.9) to post-bac (3.3) is a consistent downward trend. The grad GPA stayed numerically the same, but grad GPAs tend to be higher (inflated) relative to UG GPAs.

One other thing I recall from your original thread was that you didn't necessarily have a really solid narrative for why you wanted to be a doctor. Has that been refined? What is your goal in becoming a physician / for your career? Narrative is something I see a lot of students underestimate in importance for applications.

::edit:: I'm not sure how your AMCAS calculated GPA didn't change while you added a post-bacc with a 3.3 average? Last cycle you said your cGPA was 3.7 and your sGPA was 3.65. Both of those should go down with the inclusion of post-bacc coursework, assuming it wasn't graduate work? Remember that you have to include undergraduate level post-bacc courses with your cumulative undergraduate GPA.

 

[Goro]

A 3.3 sGPA will hurt for MD schools big time. They can afford to take a pass on you.

Add DO schools to the list

 

[heartman1998]

A 3.3 sGPA will hurt for MD schools big time. They can afford to take a pass on you.

My total sGPA (undergrad + post-bacc) is 3.7.

How many hours was your post-bac, and what was the course composition?

It was about 30 units. The courses were biology and chemistry.

narrative for why you wanted to be a doctor. Has that been refined? What is your goal in becoming a physician / for your career?

I want to work with people one-on-one and want to help reduce suffering. I also want to continue to have a broader impact beyond my immediate patients through R&D. So I want to be a physician-engineer of sorts.

Last cycle you said your cGPA was 3.7 and your sGPA was 3.65.

These were cumulative GPAs; my sGPA ended up at 3.7. But yes, there is a downward trend due to my post-bacc.

 

[Goro]

My total sGPA (undergrad + post-bacc) is 3.7.

That's not the point

These were cumulative GPAs; my sGPA ended up at 3.7. But yes, there is a downward trend due to my post-bacc.

That's the point.

 

[heartman1998]

That's the point.

Will I be pre-filtered by some computer systems due to this? It was only 2 semesters of bad grades compared to 10+ semesters of straight A/A-.

 

[Goro]

Will I be pre-filtered by some computer systems due to this? It was only 2 semesters of bad grades compared to 10+ semesters of straight A/A-.

My gut tells me you'd get a second look from people seeking to mine the applications for Diamonds in the Rough

 

[Med Ed]

Given your MCAT and your engineering GPA, I personally wouldn't get hung up on your post bacc GPA. Is it a bit odd given the rest of your academic record? Sure, but it's also just one part of your story.

Since you will have the opportunity to correct some of last cycle's mistakes, your big remaining challenge is to articulate your reason(s) for wanting to switch to medicine. But that's the same challenge all career changers face.

I would be remiss if I didn't suggest you look at Carle in Illinois. It's small but has a strong engineering focus. Arizona State University is also starting a new engineering-oriented medical school. They may be taking applications next year if/when the get preliminary accreditation.

 

[wysdoc]

Another engineering/medicine connection school is Texas A&M University's EnMed program. They prefer students with an engineering or computer science degree, and confer a Masters in Engineering during your 4 years of med school. If you already have a Masters, you can work out some other curriculum or use of your time I believe.
It is located in downtown Houston, not in College Station TX where the undergrad campus and regular MD students go.
They have an underutilized engineering makerspace which you would get to see on their interview day (they interview in person).

Non-Texans can apply to it using AMCAS so you don't have to use the TMDSAS application system.
They accept 50 students a year.

 

[eigen]

I want to work with people one-on-one and want to help reduce suffering. I also want to continue to have a broader impact beyond my immediate patients through R&D. So I want to be a physician-engineer of sorts.

Last year you said you weren't sure you wanted to complete residency and wanted to go into finance based on your degree? Has that changed?

Can you give some more details on this? Who did you teach / what were you teaching? What were you doing at the care home? Neither of these immediately jump out as things I'd consider robust service, but context matters and I may be misinterpreting.

Reiterating this question from my post since you seem to have missed it.

 

[heartman1998]

Last year you said you weren't sure you wanted to complete residency and wanted to go into finance based on your degree? Has that changed?

I do plan to complete residency. That is where I will learn the majority of the clinical skills. I'm still not sure if I will be a 100% clinician. I may well only do 20% and spend the rest of my time on R&D.

Can you give some more details on this? Who did you teach / what were you teaching? What were you doing at the care home? Neither of these immediately jump out as things I'd consider robust service, but context matters and I may be misinterpreting.

Yes, sorry I missed that. I taught inner-city students from underprivileged backgrounds. It was elementary/middle school math and English. I have over 1000 hours in teaching. As for the care home, I helped organize board game nights, dances, and other events at an old age home to help them socialize and feel connected. This was 250 hours.

 

[eigen]

I do plan to complete residency. That is where I will learn the majority of the clinical skills. I'm still not sure if I will be a 100% clinician. I may well only do 20% and spend the rest of my time on R&D.

Some schools may be OK with this, but I think you need to be prepared to provide a strong articulation for why a medical school should devote a spot to training someone who doesn't plan to practice. Can you elaborate on why an MD is necessary for the "R&D" you want to do, rather than (say) a PhD in biomedical sciences? There are specific niches for physician-scientists, to be sure, but you need to be ready to articulate it, as well as articulating why you're not pursuing an MD/PhD if that's your desired focus.

Yes, sorry I missed that. I taught inner-city students from underprivileged backgrounds. It was elementary/middle school math and English. I have over 1000 hours in teaching.

When you say "teaching", was this classroom teaching or tutoring? Was it through a formal program? The reason I'm asking is because while teaching experience can be valuable, this isn't always in exactly the same "category" as service. I'm impressed you managed 1000 hours in the last year, given that a full-time job is around 2000 hours.

 

[heartman1998]

Some schools may be OK with this, but I think you need to be prepared to provide a strong articulation for why a medical school should devote a spot to training someone who doesn't plan to practice. Can you elaborate on why an MD is necessary for the "R&D" you want to do, rather than (say) a PhD in biomedical sciences? There are specific niches for physician-scientists, to be sure, but you need to be ready to articulate it, as well as articulating why you're not pursuing an MD/PhD if that's your desired focus.

I don't want to go into details here, but I have a convincing argument for why I should attend medical school. Many physicians I have spoken to believe that the future of medicine requires innovators who will transform the field, and I am confident that I can contribute to this vision.

When you say "teaching", was this classroom teaching or tutoring? Was it through a formal program? The reason I'm asking is because while teaching experience can be valuable, this isn't always in exactly the same "category" as service. I'm impressed you managed 1000 hours in the last year, given that a full-time job is around 2000 hours.

This was just an after-school tutoring program. I've been engaged with them since my undergraduate studies, hence the 1000 hours. I had not considered including it in my previous application.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I don't want to go into details here, but I have a convincing argument for why I should attend medical school. Many physicians I have spoken to believe that the future of medicine requires innovators who will transform the field, and I am confident that I can contribute to this vision.

Can I ask: in what ways do your physician-mentors believe you can transform medicine? What track record shows your preparation for these major problems that define medicine and health for the next 50 years?

 

[heartman1998]

Can I ask: in what ways do your physician-mentors believe you can transform medicine? What track record shows your preparation for these major problems that define medicine and health for the next 50 years?

I will not change anything single-handedly; I only think I can contribute. Innovation is very important to me and is what I have dedicated my whole career to. I have a strong publication record, multiple patents, and extensive industry experience in a relevant field. One big problem in applying technology to medicine is that clinicians don't know what clinical problems are tractable with existing technology. Meanwhile, engineers don't know what problems are clinically relevant. I hope to bridge this gap.

 

[eigen]

This was just an after-school tutoring program. I've been engaged with them since my undergraduate studies, hence the 1000 hours. I had not considered including it in my previous application.

You're probably fine, but I wouldn't describe this as "teaching". Teaching and tutoring both have specific connotations.

Meanwhile, engineers don't know what problems are clinically relevant.

No offense, but you don't need to become a physician for this. 4 years of medical school + residency is overkill, and there are plenty of active researchers at the engineering / clinical medicine interface that did not go to medical school. That's what collaborations are for, and a PhD sets you up to learn and expand into new areas. You're very clear from your end that you know what you need to do, but I will continue to say that a PhD sounds like a much more appropriate path for what you want to do, and that I think you're going to have a hard time convincing committees that an MD is the better path.

 

[heartman1998]

No offense

No offense taken. I appreciate the warning. I will present better in interviews.

But what I need advice on is my school list.

 

[eigen]

In addition to the Carle and A&M suggestions, Case is a good one. Specifically, you might consider the 5-year Lerner College program that's intended for clinician-investigators. I'd probably add Tulane as well.

How did you construct your list? What advice on it would you like? In general, mission fit is a huge part of things. Do you feel like your goals align well with the missions of those schools?

 

[heartman1998]

How did you construct your list?

I picked schools in cities that I would be okay with living in.

What advice on it would you like?

I mainly want advice on which schools I should not bother with.

Do you feel like your goals align well with the missions of those schools?

Many of the schools on my list have a heavy research focus and close ties to engineering departments for interdisciplinary collaboration. So, I feel the fit is there.

 

[eigen]

You usually need to go deeper than that when you're assessing mission fit. I'd recommend taking some time with each school on your list and figuring out why, specifically, you want to apply there.

 

[Med Ed]

But what I need advice on is my school list.

Do you have the MSAR?

 

[LindaAccepted]

Sorry last cycle was a bust.

I also encourage you to apply to Carle Illinoi, which is in Chicago and I noticed that U of Chicago and Northwestern is on your list.

Frankly you're tough to predict. You have a competitive GPA, an excellent MCAT, a surprisingly low GPA from the post-bac program. I'm not sure schools will forgive. Some might, and some might not. Some may also worry that you'll try to work during med school, as you did during the post-bac program, and that didn't work out too well.

I would advise you to remove some of the top programs and add more lower ranked programs in the cities where you would want to live (Hofstra for example) that also have ties to engineering schools and research. I noticed you have no programs in TX and assume that's because you don't want to live in TX for 4 years. Maybe you should reconsider some of the larger cities in TX. As others have mentioned Texas A&M has its ENMED program. And UT Austin Dell allows its students to devote a full year to a project or research.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Yeah, the low postbacc GPA is what's really holding you back. If you'd had a 3.9, you'd be a rock star; now...you might be able to plead brokeness and say you had to work to make ends meet. However, that doesn't hold as much weight and for better or worse adcoms are looking at your judgment as well...what is going on? Why didn't you take withdrawals, reduce your course load, do something other than just bull through and cop a 3.3?

As you are now - your service looks like it's more than box-checking, a thousand hours is more than that and you were helping people that really needed it. Same for the nursing home - you could definitely talk about medical fragility, age, family and relationships, stuff like that. Might sound a bit saccharine and cliche but you're OK on the service front.

Good luck on everything; if you want to gun high I'd recommend another 30 credits of 3.8+ postbacc. If not...it is still early to think about this but given that you want academia, collaboration, basically stuff that's considered prestigious and where there's a lot of chest-beating and competition? You should 1) consider whether you want to be a physician at all and 2) consider whether an MD-or-bust approach makes sense for you. You come off as a little bit arrogant when you talk about transforming medicine; on the other hand, you're no slouch academically and under the right circumstances can put up performance that makes you a solid contender at any school in the country. The concern - and it may be slightly amplified because you come from a math or engineering background - is that you are going to be a little difficult to teach, find it hard to pick up on subtle feedback or social cues, or rub people the wrong way.

Good luck with everything; what I feel is missing from your application is softness or wisdom or discretion. Not to a fatal degree, but that's the flaw I see reading this. On the other hand...surgeons are extremely confident, often insensitive, usually very conscientious, very driven people who sometimes lack empathy, and I could totally see you being an orthopedic surgeon/researcher.