WAMC? CA ORM, 522/4.0

[EmmaWatson.]

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NEED SCHOOL LIST HELP, is my list too top heavy? If I need more “targets” what should I add based on my information? I also really want to go to school in NYC so I must ask if I had to apply to either NYU or Columbia, where would by odds be better if at all?

Im ORM, 4.0 GPA, 522 MCAT, CA resident, go to Stony brook university currently in New York

Activity 1: Shadowing (35 hours)

Activity 2: Hospital Clinical Volunteering (hospice and patients with delirium) (500 hours)

Activity 3: Research lab (no pubs/ posters) (750 hours)

Activity 4: Drawing (Hobby) (5000 hours)

Activity 5: Tutoring for University (100 hours) (job)

Activity 6: TA for Genetics (80 hours)

Activity 7: Tutoring and mentoring incarcerated individuals (120 hours) (non clinical volunteering) (might be able to get to 150 hours by app season)

Activity 8: Nonprofit Tutoring organization “co leader” tutoring aspect (9000 members) (800 hours) (nonclinical volunteering)

Activity 9: Nonprofit Tutoring organization “co leader”, this is tied to activity 8 but the leadership aspect that I formally hold a position rather than the tutoring aspect (100 hours) (Leadership)

Activity 10: VIP research program (might leave it out) (40 hours)

Activity 11: Summer Research program at a biotech company (120 hours)

Important stipulation: I will not apply to any schools in states with hot/humid climates like arizona, texas, new mexico, california, nevada, the entire deep south like florida, georgia, etc. I have very poor heat tolerance and I prefer cold environments. I am considering applying to some CA schools in state since people keep telling me to so for now I have added USC and UC Irvine to my list.

School list:

Yale
NYU or Columbia?
Northwestern
Brown University
UChicago
WashU
Mt. Sinai
Tufts
Dartmouth
UVA
Mayo Clinic
NYMC
USC
Wake Forest
Drexel
Loyola Chicago
Temple
Rosalind frank
Ohio State
Albert Einstein
Stony Brook
Cornell
Case Western
Boston U
UMich
Upitt
Hofstra
Penn State
University of Rochester
U Cincinatti
Thomas Jefferson U
University of Vermont (Larner)
Albany Medical College
Medical College of Wisconsin (MCW) / U Wisconsin?
UC Irvine

 

[polymerization]

I don't know how some of the advisors might see it here, but I've recommended not frame-mogging your experiences by listing a hobby that outpaces your most relevant experiences by several thousands of hours. Even if it is true (hello, fellow artist!), it reads like a value judgment. Remove a zero.

Have you done any service that isn't tied to teaching or tutoring in some form or fashion? Also, related: are all of your activities in tutoring/tutoring actually all one activity you are splitting up to fit different buckets?

You have a fantastic stat profile which opens the door to any school you want, but I worry about ECs and narrative. Are you interested in academic medicine/medical education? I suspect that an evaluator will look at your activities and realize most of them are in the classroom, whereas medicine is primarily practiced outside of it. Your narrative is going to have to answer why medicine with respect to how you chose to spend your time, which is actually harder than it sounds.

Your metrics are strong enough that I think you might be yield-protected at some of these schools, but I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

 

[Faha]

I suggest these schools with your stats:
Harvard
Yale
Dartmouth
Brown
UMass
Tufts
Vermont
Rochester
Hofstra
Einstein
Mount Sinai
NYU
Columbia
Cornell
Stony Brook
Pittsburgh
U Penn
Jefferson
Ohio State
Cincinnati
Johns Hopkins
George Washington
Georgetown
UVA
Duke
Washington University (in St. Louis-almost a guaranteed interview with your stats)
Vanderbilt
Colorado
Iowa
Northwestern
U Chicago
U Wisconsin
U Michigan
Case Western
Mayo

 

[EmmaWatson.]

I don't know how some of the advisors might see it here, but I've recommended not frame-mogging your experiences by listing a hobby that outpaces your most relevant experiences by several thousands of hours. Even if it is true (hello, fellow artist!), it reads like a value judgment. Remove a zero.

Have you done any service that isn't tied to teaching or tutoring in some form or fashion? Also, related: are all of your activities in tutoring/tutoring actually all one activity you are splitting up to fit different buckets?

You have a fantastic stat profile which opens the door to any school you want, but I worry about ECs and narrative. Are you interested in academic medicine/medical education? I suspect that an evaluator will look at your activities and realize most of them are in the classroom, whereas medicine is primarily practiced outside of it. Your narrative is going to have to answer why medicine with respect to how you chose to spend your time, which is actually harder than it sounds.

Your metrics are strong enough that I think you might be yield-protected at some of these schools, but I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

thank you for your response!
Your frame mogging comment is something I never thought about and I will definitely think about that when entering in my hours into my application so thank you for that. In regards to my tutoring experiences, they are all different activities and not split up from each other, but activity 8 and 9 are split up on behalf of advice from others who told me to separate the leadership aspect of it cause I am both an admin and a tutor.

I also agree with you, others on reddit told me non clinical was my biggest weakness since tutoring is not always viewed in the same manner as things like homeless shelters and food pantry but I really did not want to do any cookie cutter stuff and rather help underserved populations in a manner that I would be more excited about so I have come to terms with that aspect of my application but for my personal statement I plan to weave a narrative that describes my initial start as a terrible student in school and transition to a better student through being tutored, and then I transitioned into helping others with academics and over time I became drawing to the qualities of medicine that are similar to (but obviously very distinct) tutoring like helping patients navigate medical complications and knowledge, and I will use my hospital experiences to back that up.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Important stipulation: I will not apply to any schools in states with hot/humid climates like arizona, texas, new mexico, california, nevada, the entire deep south like florida, georgia, etc. I have very poor heat tolerance and I prefer cold environments. I am considering applying to some CA schools in state since people keep telling me to so for now I have added USC and UC Irvine to my list.

New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada: "... but it's a dry heat."

I had to double-take with 5000 hours of drawing. Do art therapy since you like tutoring and teaching so much.

What are you learning about the underserved people you are teaching? How does that fit your purpose as a physician? Don't lecture me (adcom) or spout out anything I can find with at chatbot query. There's nothing wrong doing "cookie cutter stuff" if you are learning about the people/communities you are helping. It's not about what excites you.

If you know your major Achilles heel is your non-clinical volunteering, what are you going to do about it? You must have 150 hours minimum when you submit your application; 250 minimum if you are going for brand schools.

 

[polymerization]

plan to weave a narrative that describes my initial start as a terrible student

Again, even if it's true... pressure test your narrative. You have a 100th percentile GPA *and* MCAT. I promise I'm not picking on you, you just objectively have not strayed from perfection your entire college career. Heavy is the head that wears the crown: it is genuinely difficult to frame an academic adversity narrative if you've never made a visible mistake.

If you want to find adversity, it will have to be in an area of your life that doesn't get accounted and quantified for directly within the application.

You're in such a great position. Good luck and congrats!

 

[EmmaWatson.]

Again, even if it's true... pressure test your narrative. You have a 100th percentile GPA *and* MCAT. I promise I'm not picking on you, you just objectively have not strayed from perfection your entire college career. Heavy is the head that wears the crown: it is genuinely difficult to frame an academic adversity narrative if you've never made a visible mistake.

If you want to find adversity, it will have to be in an area of your life that doesn't get accounted and quantified for directly within the application.

You're in such a great position. Good luck and congrats!

thats great advice, I may try to lean into less having been a bad student back then and more being confused and misguided as a student and how I overcame that to transition into doing the same for others in different environments and how those qualities helped me transition into a similar aspect in medicine especially cause in my hospital volunteering with delirious and elder patients I had to learn how to navigate their confusion. im still working this out but im in the beginning stages of my rough draft, roughly 25% finished with it so far

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I also agree with you, others on reddit told me non clinical was my biggest weakness since tutoring is not always viewed in the same manner as things like homeless shelters and food pantry but I really did not want to do any cookie cutter stuff and rather help underserved populations in a manner that I would be more excited about so I have come to terms with that aspect of my application but for my personal statement I plan to weave a narrative that describes my initial start as a terrible student in school and transition to a better student through being tutored, and then I transitioned into helping others with academics and over time I became drawing to the qualities of medicine that are similar to (but obviously very distinct) tutoring like helping patients navigate medical complications and knowledge, and I will use my hospital experiences to back that up.

What's wrong with cookie-cutter stuff?

The cookie-cutter stuff is where you meet people where they are and in greatest need. They aren't in the mood to be lectured to because lecturing excites you more than serving food and cleaning tables.

I don't know if your first experience research began with washing and cleaning glassware. I don't know if your first job working at a restaurant is wrapping the napkins around the silverware or polishing the drinking glasses. Sure, no one loves doing the mundane stuff, but the mundane stuff can be key to having the best customer experience. That's why one is detail-oriented. If you don't care about details, at some point, the avoidance of the mundane will catch up to you.

Have you ever been a community health worker? Why don't you want to be a CHW or a patient navigator? That sounds like you would be more excited about this.

When you say a "terrible start," mind that many adcoms reading your application struggled in college. You risk sounding tone-deaf or incredible. That will screen out your application for many.

 

[EmmaWatson.]

What's wrong with cookie-cutter stuff?

The cookie-cutter stuff is where you meet people where they are and in greatest need. They aren't in the mood to be lectured to because lecturing excites you more than serving food and cleaning tables.

I don't know if your first experience research began with washing and cleaning glassware. I don't know if your first job working at a restaurant is wrapping the napkins around the silverware or polishing the drinking glasses. Sure, no one loves doing the mundane stuff, but the mundane stuff can be key to having the best customer experience. That's why one is detail-oriented. If you don't care about details, at some point, the avoidance of the mundane will catch up to you.

Have you ever been a community health worker? Why don't you want to be a CHW or a patient navigator? That sounds like you would be more excited about this.

When you say a "terrible start," mind that many adcoms reading your application struggled in college. You risk sounding tone-deaf or incredible. That will screen out your application for many.

you are absolutely right that cookie cutter is necessary, I had been reading reddit posts for many years that influenced me to try and pursue something more memorable so I can stand out in the sea of applicants that are similar to me and I thought that food pantry type of activities would prevent me from being noticed.

In addition to your final sentence, what kind of perspective do you think I should approach it with? I was a HORRIBLE student years ago before college and with the tutoring I received and the educational mentors I had they sparked my love of learning and that motivated me to reciprocate it for other students. And after years of doing this I was thinking I could transition the lessons I learned from tutoring into leading me to medicine as an important aspect of medicine is the premise of doctors guiding and educating the public/patients on important medical related stuff

Thank you for your very insightful responses!

 

[EmmaWatson.]

New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada: "... but it's a dry heat."

I had to double-take with 5000 hours of drawing. Do art therapy since you like tutoring and teaching so much.

What are you learning about the underserved people you are teaching? How does that fit your purpose as a physician? Don't lecture me (adcom) or spout out anything I can find with at chatbot query. There's nothing wrong doing "cookie cutter stuff" if you are learning about the people/communities you are helping. It's not about what excites you.

If you know your major Achilles heel is your non-clinical volunteering, what are you going to do about it? You must have 150 hours minimum when you submit your application; 250 minimum if you are going for brand schools.

I plan on partaking in extra shifts to make that push to 150 hours, and when you mention brand schools are you talking about the major service schools like Rosalind frank and Rush?

 

[polymerization]

I don't recommend approaching it that way because teaching is itself a noble career that you are well within your capacity to pursue. There are other healthcare roles, like nurse educators, that do more patient education than physicians.

Your writing is not dialogue, so you have to anticipate logical conclusions an evaluator might make and resolve them iteratively until you approximate a piece of writing that can compellingly make the case that medicine is not just the best option of many good options, but the only option for you, specifically. It has to be clear that you would not be happy in some other career.

You can probably polish your story until it's passable, even as you describe it... but I doubt that it would be as legible as a more clinical, physician-aligned motivation. Of course, you will not "stand out" by your own definition, but it's probably better not to in this way.

 

[EmmaWatson.]

I don't recommend approaching it that way because teaching is itself a noble career that you are well within your capacity to pursue. There are other healthcare roles, like nurse educators, that do more patient education than physicians.

Your writing is not dialogue, so you have to anticipate logical conclusions an evaluator might make and resolve them iteratively until you approximate a piece of writing that can compellingly make the case that medicine is not just the best option of many good options, but the only option for you, specifically. It has to be clear that you would not be happy in some other career.

You can probably polish your story until it's passable, even as you describe it... but I doubt that it would be as legible as a more clinical, physician-aligned motivation. Of course, you will not "stand out" by your own definition, but it's probably better not to in this way.

thank you, you are really helping me out and now I must ask a strange question. I’ve heard anecdotal numbers thrown out there by people who have sat on committees to review essays and they’ve said the vast majority 90%+ don’t really move the needle. what’s your take on this and if such is true should one just aim to create an essay that isn’t extraordinary but just is enough to not knock you down a couple tiers? I have been thinking if the essay is read in a matter of minutes then maybe it’s a better use of time not to be obsessive over every detail and narrative. Again i am just wondering,

 

[Mr.Smile12]

In addition to your final sentence, what kind of perspective do you think I should approach it with? I was a HORRIBLE student years ago before college and with the tutoring I received and the educational mentors I had they sparked my love of learning and that motivated me to reciprocate it for other students. And after years of doing this I was thinking I could transition the lessons I learned from tutoring into leading me to medicine as an important aspect of medicine is the premise of doctors guiding and educating the public/patients on important medical related stuff

One of the most memorable speeches I have ever witnessed was from a 4-minute speech given by a high school student on the power of a teacher. I'm fairly sure many of that speech's points covered igniting the spark of curiosity and enthusiasm to share learning to one's peers. If I recall correctly, I think this was a speech given by a high school student with a C-level GPA (for those who know out there, this was a US Academic Decathlon national gold medal speech showcase).

This speech didn't end with "and that's why I want to be a doctor." I came away appreciating how teaching can uplift others. But I didn't get an impression the person wanted to be a doctor; that wasn't the point in this contest.

Look at the 9 AAMC preprofessional competencies. "Teaching" is not one of them. Teaching does involve oral communication, cultural humility/awareness, and maybe compassion/empathy. My point is that "my love for teaching others" is a product of the academy. Maybe "Kool Aid" is a better term than "product."

I’ve heard anecdotal numbers thrown out there by people who have sat on committees to review essays and they’ve said the vast majority 90%+ don’t really move the needle. what’s your take on this and if such is true should one just aim to create an essay that isn’t extraordinary but just is enough to not knock you down a couple tiers?

Yes, that's probably true. I review applications holistically, and the essay is part of the process. The number of truly bad essays is rare, though I suppose with the rise of genAI-written personal statements, we have to redefine "bad."

We don't give gold medals for personal essays with a full-COA ride scholarship to the best one (who ultimately matriculates). Sorry to disappoint everyone.

 

[polymerization]

thank you, you are really helping me out and now I must ask a strange question. I’ve heard anecdotal numbers thrown out there by people who have sat on committees to review essays and they’ve said the vast majority 90%+ don’t really move the needle. what’s your take on this and if such is true should one just aim to create an essay that isn’t extraordinary but just is enough to not knock you down a couple tiers? I have been thinking if the essay is read in a matter of minutes then maybe it’s a better use of time not to be obsessive over every detail and narrative. Again i am just wondering,

Well, yeah, I'm a believer. I know I can lean neurotic, but I applied with a 3.5/506 and am now choosing between an Ivy and a flagship UC as an OOS to both. Could it be a coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it. Being insane about my writing put me in rooms with applicants who were putting up numbers like yours, and I received acceptances over some of them.

I guess it depends how much you need the writing to do for you. For someone like you with a more straightforward path, there might be less to explain overtly, though you may need to clarify how you chose your activities. For someone like me, that had to explain 10+ years worth of experiences and discuss why I was coming back to school after all that time, I needed every character (and still ended up making heavy cuts).

I don't regret being crazy.

 

[EmmaWatson.]

I suggest these schools with your stats:
Harvard
Yale
Dartmouth
Brown
UMass
Tufts
Vermont
Rochester
Hofstra
Einstein
Mount Sinai
NYU
Columbia
Cornell
Stony Brook
Pittsburgh
U Penn
Jefferson
Ohio State
Cincinnati
Johns Hopkins
George Washington
Georgetown
UVA
Duke
Washington University (in St. Louis-almost a guaranteed interview with your stats)
Vanderbilt
Colorado
Iowa
Northwestern
U Chicago
U Wisconsin
U Michigan
Case Western
Mayo

thank you for your input!

 

[EmmaWatson.]

One of the most memorable speeches I have ever witnessed was from a 4-minute speech given by a high school student on the power of a teacher. I'm fairly sure many of that speech's points covered igniting the spark of curiosity and enthusiasm to share learning to one's peers. If I recall correctly, I think this was a speech given by a high school student with a C-level GPA (for those who know out there, this was a US Academic Decathlon national gold medal speech showcase).

This speech didn't end with "and that's why I want to be a doctor." I came away appreciating how teaching can uplift others. But I didn't get an impression the person wanted to be a doctor; that wasn't the point in this contest.

Look at the 9 AAMC preprofessional competencies. "Teaching" is not one of them. Teaching does involve oral communication, cultural humility/awareness, and maybe compassion/empathy. My point is that "my love for teaching others" is a product of the academy. Maybe "Kool Aid" is a better term than "product."


Yes, that's probably true. I review applications holistically, and the essay is part of the process. The number of truly bad essays is rare, though I suppose with the rise of genAI-written personal statements, we have to redefine "bad."

We don't give gold medals for personal essays with a full-COA ride scholarship to the best one (who ultimately matriculates). Sorry to disappoint everyone.

thank you once again for your help, it is always a great privilege to talk to someone with your experience. I will take everything you said to heart although I am reluctant to change gears with regards to my narrative just yet, I feel confident I can make it work if I change the teaching aspect in such a way that its more relevant to medicine, at the end of the day this was my true introduction to medicine and I am unsure if I can think of any other narrative I can explore that wouldn't just be a straight up lie for the sake of impressing whoever is reading my essay. I will try to frame it more tailored to those competencies you and many others have mentioned. Thank you!!!!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

thank you once again for your help, it is always a great privilege to talk to someone with your experience. I will take everything you said to heart although I am reluctant to change gears with regards to my narrative just yet, I feel confident I can make it work if I change the teaching aspect in such a way that its more relevant to medicine, at the end of the day this was my true introduction to medicine and I am unsure if I can think of any other narrative I can explore that wouldn't just be a straight up lie for the sake of impressing whoever is reading my essay. I will try to frame it more tailored to those competencies you and many others have mentioned. Thank you!!!!

My best advisees can write multiple personal statements that each highlight different strengths and competencies as future doctors. Don't get too connected to your dtafts.

Look at your secondaries. Some schools ask if you see yourself in "academic medicine." Would your angle belong there?