WAMC Struggling with school list :(

[oceanoreo]

Date of submission: trying to apply within the next few days (roughly 08/12)
Overall GPA: 3.99
Science GPA: 4.0
Bio-Chem-Physics GPA: 4.0
DAT score (include AA and all sections): AA: 25 PA: 24 TS: 25 BIO: 30 GC: 25 OC: 23 RC: 25 QR: 22
State of Residence: CA

Undergrad Attended:
Major: Biology B.S.
Minor: N/A
Minority? No
Reapplicant? No
Nontrad? No

Shadowing Experience: 115 hrs (~75 at GP and the rest split between endo, peds, and omfs)
Volunteering Experience: 110 hrs spent in a few different volunteering positions in a homeless employment organization (helps homeless folks get back on their feet through a yearlong program that prepares them to enter the workforce and attain housing)
Employment: 375 hrs in food service (freshman year) + 850 hrs as a dental assistant with emphasis on staff training and in-house cad/cam design and production
Research: N/A
Other Extracurriculars: 90 hrs board member of school's Pre-Dental Society; ~30 hrs as regular club member in year prior; completion of "Discover Dentistry" six-week online course by the University of Sheffield
Have you volunteered/shadowed/attended events at any dental schools? No
Relevant Honors or Awards: Dean's Honors essentially every quarter
LOR type and strength:
Physics prof that I had for entire 3 quarter series (strong)
Bio prof that I had for 2 separate courses (presumed strong or at least decently positive)
Dentist boss/mentor *UOP alum* (very strong)
Volunteer coordinator (presumed strong or at least decently positive)
Misc Info/Things not stated elsewhere/Red Flags:

I feel like I should apply to at least 9 schools to be safe and have spent HOURS trying to narrow down my OOS choices, but this hasn't yielded any choices I feel super confident about. I don't really have factors that I have a strong conviction about that could massively narrow things down. Any school suggestions would be very much appreciated. Also any insight on likelihood of yield protection? I don't really know where to draw the line when it comes to which schools I shouldn't apply to because they might just auto-reject me and I don't want to throw money away

My list of factors more or less in order of priority:
1. Love the idea of a 3 yr program hence UOP and Roseman
2. Clinical experience (I'm GP oriented and would only consider specializing after at least a few years in GP)
3. Curriculum that emphasizes competency and isn't too stressful
4. Cost
5. School has modern tech and toys

School list:
UOP (top choice)
UCLA
UCSF
Roseman
UPenn? (seems like only Ivy that won't completely lump me with the med students)
Midwestern University Arizona?
Boston University?
University of Pittsburgh?
University of Utah?

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[jigglypianodude]

yield protection? lmfao what

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Welcome to the forums.

Great job. But you mentioned you attended no recruitment events and did not network before applying. I don't completely believe that your involvement with predental clubs was solely focused internally, but if that's what you got out of it...

There aren't enough dental schools to worry about yield protection to the same extent as medical schools, but mission fit is significantly important. As a California applicant, you must worry about OOS stats, but with your metrics... come on, man. You shouldn't be spending hours on your school list, and you can be picky... if only you had researched the schools before you submitted your application.

So, questions for you: Where do you want to live and practice? Do you want to stay near California or the West Coast, or do you want to move to a much cheaper place? If you are GP-oriented, do you want to serve underserved communities through HPSP or NHSC? Someone else may confirm with me, but with HPSP, you can access modern tech and toys independent of your school's resources. It also makes your "cost" criteria irrelevant since the government pays you (in exchange for service time).

To consider, answer why not...
Warm weather list
Western U Pomona
Utah
UNLV
ATSU Arizona
Midwestern Arizona

It also seems you are avoiding schools with actual seasons (i.e., winter). If that's not the case, in addition to Penn...
Michigan
Ohio State
Louisville
VCU

 

[oceanoreo]

Thanks for the welcome.

Great job. But you mentioned you attended no recruitment events and did not network before applying. I don't completely believe that your involvement with predental clubs was solely focused internally, but if that's what you got out of it...

Networking within the club was more or less limited to local dentists and admissions advisors over Zoom. I can remember one time where a trip to UCSF was organized, but I didn't attend at the time.

So, questions for you: Where do you want to live and practice? Do you want to stay near California or the West Coast, or do you want to move to a much cheaper place? If you are GP-oriented, do you want to serve underserved communities through HPSP or NHSC? Someone else may confirm with me, but with HPSP, you can access modern tech and toys independent of your school's resources. It also makes your "cost" criteria irrelevant since the government pays you (in exchange for service time).

Regardless of the school I attend, I plan to return to my hometown (where I'm currently attending undergrad as well) and continue working for my current mentor as an associate–not just because I have a great relationship with him but because it's an amazing financial move that will allow me to aggressively pay off student loans (paying for school myself). I kind of had the impression that with some exceptions, dental school is just a place I can ship myself off to for a few years and have an experience, but ultimately come right back home without any real expectation from the school that I should stay in their state. Is this a misguided assumption?

I already know I want to attend UOP as my values align incredibly well with their mission, so this process just feels like building a list of backup plans that I don't have super strong feelings about... I tried to choose OOS schools that have stats closer to mine and were GP oriented and/or have a strong clinical reputation, but if yield protection isn't really a valid concern then I'll start considering some other schools with more intention.

I haven't applied yet, which is why I made this post seeking some advice... Sorry if posting under the WAMC was misleading but the school list is definitely not finalized.

 

[macsak]

yield protection? lmfao what

yup
it's real...

 

[macsak]

Date of submission: trying to apply within the next few days (roughly 08/12)
Overall GPA: 3.99
Science GPA: 4.0
Bio-Chem-Physics GPA: 4.0
DAT score (include AA and all sections): AA: 25 PA: 24 TS: 25 BIO: 30 GC: 25 OC: 23 RC: 25 QR: 22
State of Residence: CA

Undergrad Attended:
Major: Biology B.S.
Minor: N/A
Minority? No
Reapplicant? No
Nontrad? No

Shadowing Experience: 115 hrs (~75 at GP and the rest split between endo, peds, and omfs)
Volunteering Experience: 110 hrs spent in a few different volunteering positions in a homeless employment organization (helps homeless folks get back on their feet through a yearlong program that prepares them to enter the workforce and attain housing)
Employment: 375 hrs in food service (freshman year) + 850 hrs as a dental assistant with emphasis on staff training and in-house cad/cam design and production
Research: N/A
Other Extracurriculars: 90 hrs board member of school's Pre-Dental Society; ~30 hrs as regular club member in year prior; completion of "Discover Dentistry" six-week online course by the University of Sheffield
Have you volunteered/shadowed/attended events at any dental schools? No
Relevant Honors or Awards: Dean's Honors essentially every quarter
LOR type and strength:
Physics prof that I had for entire 3 quarter series (strong)
Bio prof that I had for 2 separate courses (presumed strong or at least decently positive)
Dentist boss/mentor *UOP alum* (very strong)
Volunteer coordinator (presumed strong or at least decently positive)
Misc Info/Things not stated elsewhere/Red Flags:

I feel like I should apply to at least 9 schools to be safe and have spent HOURS trying to narrow down my OOS choices, but this hasn't yielded any choices I feel super confident about. I don't really have factors that I have a strong conviction about that could massively narrow things down. Any school suggestions would be very much appreciated. Also any insight on likelihood of yield protection? I don't really know where to draw the line when it comes to which schools I shouldn't apply to because they might just auto-reject me and I don't want to throw money away

My list of factors more or less in order of priority:
1. Love the idea of a 3 yr program hence UOP and Roseman
2. Clinical experience (I'm GP oriented and would only consider specializing after at least a few years in GP)
3. Curriculum that emphasizes competency and isn't too stressful
4. Cost
5. School has modern tech and toys

School list:
UOP (top choice)
UCLA
UCSF
Roseman
UPenn? (seems like only Ivy that won't completely lump me with the med students)
Midwestern University Arizona?
Boston University?
University of Pittsburgh?
University of Utah?

why boston?
why pittsburgh?

 

[macsak]

Thanks for the welcome.


Networking within the club was more or less limited to local dentists and admissions advisors over Zoom. I can remember one time where a trip to UCSF was organized, but I didn't attend at the time.


Regardless of the school I attend, I plan to return to my hometown (where I'm currently attending undergrad as well) and continue working for my current mentor as an associate–not just because I have a great relationship with him but because it's an amazing financial move that will allow me to aggressively pay off student loans (paying for school myself). I kind of had the impression that with some exceptions, dental school is just a place I can ship myself off to for a few years and have an experience, but ultimately come right back home without any real expectation from the school that I should stay in their state. Is this a misguided assumption?

I already know I want to attend UOP as my values align incredibly well with their mission, so this process just feels like building a list of backup plans that I don't have super strong feelings about... I tried to choose OOS schools that have stats closer to mine and were GP oriented and/or have a strong clinical reputation, but if yield protection isn't really a valid concern then I'll start considering some other schools with more intention.

I haven't applied yet, which is why I made this post seeking some advice... Sorry if posting under the WAMC was misleading but the school list is definitely not finalized.

you never met with Stan?

 

[jigglypianodude]

yup
it's real...

that’s insane. i would think nearly any school would be willing to interview someone with a 4.0 science. don’t they want as high stats as possible?

 

[macsak]

that’s insane. i would think nearly any school would be willing to interview someone with a 4.0 science. don’t they want as high stats as possible?

there are several ways to explain this

1- schools could easily fill their classes with only ultra high stat people. the issue is, you would have a higher chance of having whiners, karens, gunners, personality issues, etc, etc, etc

B) let's make a hypothetical dental school in alaska. they can only extend 300-350 interview invites, from which they need to accept 150 to fill 90 seats. is the university of alaska going to give an interview to a student from florida with a 4.8 gpa and 39 on the DAT? not likely, because that student will likely attend UF, or UNC, or Georgia, or an Ivy.

lastly, the example i give about yield management goes like this. in high school, i weighed a buck fifteen, had braces and zits, and was a band geek. is it in my best interest to ask the head cheerleader or the homecoming queen to prom? that's yield management...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

that’s insane. i would think nearly any school would be willing to interview someone with a 4.0 science. don’t they want as high stats as possible?

I mention it's not as bad as medical school, but as @macsak points out:

Many schools want to keep as many high-stat applicants as possible (even though we don't participate in "rankings") and, some applicants still want "prestige" names on their dental school diplomas. We only have so much time to interview candidates, and we want candidates who consider us their top choice over a "safety" in case they don't get into their desired school. We know who we lose candidates to, and we know strong candidates should get more than one offer.

But we also know that many book-smart people are not so great at interpersonal skills, hand skills, grit/resilience, or time/priority management when things get tough (which often happens in dental school). You often can't pass a class or get top marks if you don't get along well with your preceptors or faculty. Most traditional applicants think life is over if they get their first B-plus.

We also have had a history of attracting premeds who consider "dental school" as their safety option, and they later drop out realizing dental school isn't for them, or they get an offer later for medical school. They tend to be high-GPA candidates who can talk a great application game. That's why we don't just automatically grant interviews to every 3.9+ applicant.

 

[SDDSDDM]

@macsak Based on your examples, a person from California with great scores/GPA would likely be interviewed at UCLA/UCSF. Are UCLA/UCSF dental students mostly Karens/gunners? What is the sweet spot for a CA applicant that OOS schools would consider interviewing if yield management is considered? A 22? 23 still too high? Is there a breakdown somewhere of applicants by state/score?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@macsak Based on your examples, a person from California with great scores/GPA would likely be interviewed at UCLA/UCSF. Are UCLA/UCSF dental students mostly Karens/gunners? What is the sweet spot for a CA applicant that OOS schools would consider interviewing if yield management is considered? A 22? 23 still too high? Is there a breakdown somewhere of applicants by state/score?

I'm sure plenty of UCLA/UCSF applicants with top metrics get interview-held or rejected. From what I know about UCLA or UCSF, they don't want the Karens and gunners. They want people who have an affinity for mission fit to serve the patients and address state/national oral health needs. (But send the Karens and gunners to USC. )

Dental schools definitely prescribe to holistic review; metrics only matter so much, but do not supersede mission fit.

Mission Fit: Key to Your Success - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[drDental_]

But we also know that many book-smart people are not so great at interpersonal skills, hand skills, grit/resilience, or time/priority management when things get tough (which often happens in dental school). You often can't pass a class or get top marks if you don't get along well with your preceptors or faculty. Most traditional applicants think life is over if they get their first B-plus.

Do those who earned engineering degrees tend to fare better than traditional science majors (with high stats) when it comes to hand skills or have you observed much of the same? Do those who start dental school already having acquired experience with high-speed handpieces tend to develop hand skills without issue?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Do those who earned engineering degrees tend to fare better than traditional science majors (with high stats) when it comes to hand skills or have you observed much of the same? Do those who start dental school already having acquired experience with high-speed handpieces tend to develop hand skills without issue?

People with significant hand-skill experiences tend to understand the importance of practicing tediously and having an aesthetic eye. Anecdotally, many who are engineers (including a few people who like to build their own computer circuits), artists (sculpturists), or musicians understand these concepts best in dental school (and medical school/surgical specialties). I suppose if you had experience as a jeweler (like making your wedding rings), you should do well in dental school. Research that involves surgical skills on small specimens (how about that butterfly collection!) also helps.

Certainly, there are engineering disciplines that don't involve such minute motor skills, so one must be careful about generalizing. But I have done my fair share of circuit boards and soldering.

 

[jigglypianodude]

I mention it's not as bad as medical school, but as @macsak points out:

Many schools want to keep as many high-stat applicants as possible (even though we don't participate in "rankings") and, some applicants still want "prestige" names on their dental school diplomas. We only have so much time to interview candidates, and we want candidates who consider us their top choice over a "safety" in case they don't get into their desired school. We know who we lose candidates to, and we know strong candidates should get more than one offer.

But we also know that many book-smart people are not so great at interpersonal skills, hand skills, grit/resilience, or time/priority management when things get tough (which often happens in dental school). You often can't pass a class or get top marks if you don't get along well with your preceptors or faculty. Most traditional applicants think life is over if they get their first B-plus.

We also have had a history of attracting premeds who consider "dental school" as their safety option, and they later drop out realizing dental school isn't for them, or they get an offer later for medical school. They tend to be high-GPA candidates who can talk a great application game. That's why we don't just automatically grant interviews to every 3.9+ applicant.

so honestly, what it sounds like to me is not yield protection but rather the nature of “holistic” admissions. i honestly don’t think having a 4.0 gpa would hurt your chances anywhere—it’s more so the fact that you need MORE than just high stats to get into dental?

 

[drDental_]

People with significant hand-skill experiences tend to understand the importance of practicing tediously and having an aesthetic eye. Anecdotally, many who are engineers (including a few people who like to build their own computer circuits), artists (sculpturists), or musicians understand these concepts best in dental school (and medical school/surgical specialties). I suppose if you had experience as a jeweler (like making your wedding rings), you should do well in dental school. Research that involves surgical skills on small specimens (how about that butterfly collection!) also helps.

Certainly, there are engineering disciplines that don't involve such minute motor skills, so one must be careful about generalizing. But I have done my fair share of circuit boards and soldering.

I certainly agree that generalizing isn’t always helpful - depending on the context it can actually be quite harmful - but I am also attempting to preserve some details for myself. Thanks for your response!

 

[macsak]

@macsak Based on your examples, a person from California with great scores/GPA would likely be interviewed at UCLA/UCSF. Are UCLA/UCSF dental students mostly Karens/gunners? What is the sweet spot for a CA applicant that OOS schools would consider interviewing if yield management is considered? A 22? 23 still too high? Is there a breakdown somewhere of applicants by state/score?

sorry i missed this post yesterday
no, UCSF/UCLA students are not mostly karens/gunners
that was not my point
you have the potential for more problems the more ultra high stat students you accept

there is no "sweet spot" for OOS applicants from CA
yield management is necessary for schools to be efficient with their time/money/personnel
there needs to be mission fit demonstrated continuously shown throughout your application to get interviews/acceptances

i do not know of a breakdown as you described, perhaps someone else knows...

 

[macsak]

so honestly, what it sounds like to me is not yield protection but rather the nature of “holistic” admissions. i honestly don’t think having a 4.0 gpa would hurt your chances anywhere—it’s more so the fact that you need MORE than just high stats to get into dental?

no one is saying that a 4.0 hurts your chances

we are answering your original question, which was "that’s insane. i would think nearly any school would be willing to interview someone with a 4.0 science. don’t they want as high stats as possible?"

 

[macsak]

People with significant hand-skill experiences tend to understand the importance of practicing tediously and having an aesthetic eye. Anecdotally, many who are engineers (including a few people who like to build their own computer circuits), artists (sculpturists), or musicians understand these concepts best in dental school (and medical school/surgical specialties). I suppose if you had experience as a jeweler (like making your wedding rings), you should do well in dental school. Research that involves surgical skills on small specimens (how about that butterfly collection!) also helps.

Certainly, there are engineering disciplines that don't involve such minute motor skills, so one must be careful about generalizing. But I have done my fair share of circuit boards and soldering.

the other thing that most predents don't understand that it's not only about hand skills
it's important to have a well developed "mind's eye" in dentistry
you need to be able to conceptualize in your mind what steps you need to do to get a reliable outcome
that's why the PAT is given on the DAT...

 

[drDental_]

the other thing that most predents don't understand that it's not only about hand skills
it's important to have a well developed "mind's eye" in dentistry
you need to be able to conceptualize in your mind what steps you need to do to get a reliable outcome
that's why the PAT is given on the DAT...

Absolutely understood and I agree with both your points. I’ve been surprised at the frequency of assertions made that the PAT doesn’t actually matter much. It’s not been clear to me where this belief originated given I’ve assumed that anything DAT-wise is or will be relevant; otherwise, there would be no reason for inclusion on the DAT. It seems to be based on some applicants’ feelings rather than actual logic. But I’ll keep that to myself outside this post.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Absolutely understood and I agree with both your points. I’ve been surprised at the frequency of assertions made that the PAT doesn’t actually matter much. It’s not been clear to me where this belief originated given I’ve assumed that anything DAT-wise is or will be relevant; otherwise, there would be no reason for inclusion on the DAT. It seems to be based on some applicants’ feelings rather than actual logic. But I’ll keep that to myself outside this post.

I wouldn't know where those assertions came from either. The PAT is one of the more unique standardized exams that doesn't have many other triangulation points. It's not perfect, but there are few alternatives (other than perhaps on-site assessments).

Issues regarding practical validity and gender bias of the Perceptual Abilities Test (PAT) - PubMed

A brief history of the Dental Admission Test is provided, with emphasis on the development and utilization of the Perceptual Abilities Test (PAT). Concerns regarding the predictive utility of the PAT are discussed, and alternative approaches to assessing perceptual and motor skills are examined...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[drDental_]

I wouldn't know where those assertions came from either. The PAT is one of the more unique standardized exams that doesn't have many other triangulation points. It's not perfect, but there are few alternatives (other than perhaps on-site assessments).

Issues regarding practical validity and gender bias of the Perceptual Abilities Test (PAT) - PubMed

A brief history of the Dental Admission Test is provided, with emphasis on the development and utilization of the Perceptual Abilities Test (PAT). Concerns regarding the predictive utility of the PAT are discussed, and alternative approaches to assessing perceptual and motor skills are examined...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Similar assertions are made for the QR section, although much more frequently. Of the two, this one makes the least sense from an admissions standpoint given it’s inclusion in the AA calculation.

 

[jigglypianodude]

no one is saying that a 4.0 hurts your chances

we are answering your original question, which was "that’s insane. i would think nearly any school would be willing to interview someone with a 4.0 science. don’t they want as high stats as possible?"

i’m failing to understand how those statements aren’t inherently the same thing

 

[macsak]

i’m failing to understand how those statements aren’t inherently the same thing

ok, i see your point
it sounded better when i typed it...