Wanting to make 1M+ per year on first year out of residency

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myPsychAlt,

Look man. Spare me the condescending statements. I've done my homework. There ARE psychiatrists who make this kind of money. They're not all locked up in a penitentiary. They are not doing anything illegal. End of story

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And to answer your questions Calvinandhobbes,

They'll work for me because I'm better. That's why
 
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No s109442, it was an HMO with many physicians working within the entity. Please do your homework before making false statements. Lol

And yea, you're right calvinandhobbs. All anyone can ever hope for (based on the presented-as-fact advice from our forums greatest contributors with, to be perfectly honest, way too much time on their hands making forum posts), is a meager 300-400k a year. Any deviation from that is either - you name it?
1. Unrealistic
2. Immoral
3. Unethical
4. Not practical
5. Unlikely
6. ???

Any other suggestions?

And anyone who does pull off reaching into the skies in regards to income/net worth is either - what?
1. Lucky
2. Cheated
3. Had connections
4. ???

Suggest a deviation from the norm and get flammed by a bunch on anons on an online forum even though the anons happen to "allegedly" be doctors. Kinda funny.

Anyways, in the end there will always be the highest earners in any profession and they didn't get there taking crappy, defeatist advice from a bunch of people who didn't pull it off themselves and are trying to externalize their inadequacies to the system at large. Ha

Extreme deviations from the norm (ex. making 3-4x what the average person in your profession makes) requires you to deviate from the norm in some way. Whether that's a positive or negative deviation in terms of patient care is up to you but there are pretty easy ways to tell which way someone is deviating. Ex. Crappy, fast, risky patient care makes you more money faster vs. building up a speciality practice with multiple offices or a very niche subspeciality (ex. large procedural practice, super-speciality forensics practice, eating disorder program, etc etc) takes a long time, lower upfront salary and more risk but provides more quality patient care.

You also realize the fact that the people who are responding to you have verified accounts mean they're "actually" doctors, not "allegedly" doctors right? That's the point of a verified account. Which you don't have. You also apparently can't figure out how to properly reply to posts.
 
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Dude, so now I'm being flamed for not properly responding to posts? I'm sorry man that I haven't accumulated the 5000+ posts you have and know this forum's interface better than my backyard growing up. Lol, jeeze..
 
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The poster is saying the difference between 700K and 1 million after taxes per month is 7K-9K.
I'm aware. You should be able to maximize what you keep and not lose so much through any number of ways, from increasing SEP contributions to their maximum to increasing the portion of your earnings that can be deferred to expenses. The only way you're pulling that little is if you're W2
 
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The poster is saying the difference between 700K and 1 million after taxes per month is 7K-9K.

There are some tricks once you generate that much revenue. Something called defined benefits plans. Something called accumulated earning tax planning. May be time to acquire commercial real estate. Etc etc. So the total growth of net worth should exceed 7-9k a month if you plan correctly.


1. Unrealistic

4. Not practical
5. Unlikely
6. ???

It is just a plain truth that it's "unlikely" and potentially "not practical". It's *plausible* and we gave you some pathways.
 
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Look Sluox,

All I'm saying is that I know there is a perfectly legal way to do this and that is what I have always and will always want to do. I'm still a trainee now though. I just feel bad being accused here by people who don't even know me that I'm trying to defraud the government and then they start disliking my posts? What gives? Lol
 
No s109442, it was an HMO with many physicians working within the entity. Please do your homework before making false statements. Lol

And yea, you're right calvinandhobbs. All anyone can ever hope for (based on the presented-as-fact advice from our forums greatest contributors with, to be perfectly honest, way too much time on their hands making forum posts), is a meager 300-400k a year. Any deviation from that is either - you name it?
1. Unrealistic
2. Immoral
3. Unethical
4. Not practical
5. Unlikely
6. ???

Any other suggestions?

And anyone who does pull off reaching into the skies in regards to income/net worth is either - what?
1. Lucky
2. Cheated
3. Had connections
4. ???

Suggest a deviation from the norm and get flammed by a bunch on anons on an online forum even though the anons happen to "allegedly" be doctors. Kinda funny.

Anyways, in the end there will always be the highest earners in any profession and they didn't get there taking crappy, defeatist advice from a bunch of people who didn't pull it off themselves and are trying to externalize their inadequacies to the system at large. Ha
The thing is, maximum billings are maximum billings. You can only see so many patients in a day, and beyond a certain amount you are either providing subpar care or committing fraud (or both). You can absolutely ear a million dollars a year, but doing it as a solo provider is challenging to justify the billing for, as you can't generate enough revenue to be paid that much unless you're seeing far too many patients to be safe. Best way to do it is to build a practice with extenders, I know a guy making well over a million doing that. Most I've ever heard of someone making not doing cash only private practice was just north of 800k a year working locums 70-80 hours a week.
 
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In medium to small towns, upper $700k to one million is very obtainable for surgical subspecialties and GI, cardiology. And probably less work than a psychiatrist with the same clinical income.
Do you think those numbers for these or other specialties would be difficult to find for a newly minted attending if they were to work like a resident in their respective field?
 
Some people are very efficient... My closest friend in residency can take care the same # of patients in 1/2 of time that I can see these same patients while not missing a thing.

I once worked on the same team with her and when she was finishing at 12 noon and go home; I was leaving the hospital at 3-4 pm. We both started ~ 7am.
 
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Your mind is already made up. Your strategy (stringing together a bunch of jobs) can technically be done. Go ahead and do it and see if you can get by. You increase your risk of bad patient outcomes, career ending events and legal entanglements the higher your workload but you gain a million dollars a year if you can avoid those things and then you can feed the ten children and five parents you apparently have. If you find a way to do it that doesn't make all your hair fall out then please share with us in a couple years.
 
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Some people are very efficient... My closest friend in residency can take care the same # of patients in 1/2 of time that I can see these same patients while not missing a thing.

I once worked on the same team with her and when she was finishing at 12 noon and go home; I was leaving the hospital at 3-4 pm. We both started ~ 7am.

No one argued that some people aren't more efficient than others. The argument lies in the fact that 99% of psychiatric patients require more than 5 minutes time if you're actually going to provide good care.
 
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Look up David Cotton. He is ~70 year old OB/Gyn doctor with net worth of about 3 billion. Started a medicaid only practice about 20 years ago in his 50s and sold to a larger healthcare organization a few years ago. I thought everyone on this forum was saying that medicaid practice is non-lucrative? This guy made 3 billion. What's to say a psychiatrist or other specialty can't do that as well?

I'm not trying to name names. But there seems to be a significant amount of misinformation on this forum regarding what you can and can't do and what you can and can't make as a practicing psychiatrist.

I see psych currently as the most underrated specialty in all of medicine. It's not nearly as competitive as it should be (should honestly be ROAD) for 2 reasons:
1. Med students perceive it as "lesser" specialty because it is "psych" and not a real doctor and there could be some family pressures there. So they don't even take the time to research it
2. Salary surveys are largely skewed. Totally unreliable. There's lots of room for significant payment in this field based on how you practice. And for only 4 years of residency with no real requirement to fellowship? It's not a bad deal - on par with derm. On that note, you gotta realize that the average psychiatrist is probably in his 50s/60s and at the end of his career and working part-time so that is what brings the income reports down.

There was a guy on whitecoatinvestor I was just reading about who made over 1M in his first year out of psychiatry residency. But of course, he was hustling like crazy. Personally, I've never heard of being to do that in any other specialty. Even the competitive ones.



The Medscape salary surveys always show Psych salary around the bottom. But this is because (Medscape stat), 70% of Psychiatrists work <40 hours/week. So of course Psych will be on lower end of salaries. But if Psych worked Cardiology/General Surgery hours, I think it would be almost on par with those specialities.

And yes, in the past Psych is perceived as "lesser", but I think thats changing with the current medical students, as mental health is now becoming more and more mainstream.
 
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Look Sluox,

All I'm saying is that I know there is a perfectly legal way to do this and that is what I have always and will always want to do. I'm still a trainee now though. I just feel bad being accused here by people who don't even know me that I'm trying to defraud the government and then they start disliking my posts? What gives? Lol

Honestly I'd be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you slowed down a bit and didn't take every criticism of your plans as a personal attack. There are certainly plenty of ways to make bank, but the plans you've cited to achieve that simply aren't realistic unless you're upcoding. At best you'll develop a reputation that you don't want to have in the community if you're seeing 100 inpt/day. Contrary to what you might think, we do like money here on the SDN psych forum and are more than happy to help you out if if you're willing to listen.

I'm curious as to what PG year you are now? I'm assuming not a PG4 as you'd presumably have a job already lined up by now.
 
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No one argued that some people aren't more efficient than others. The argument lies in the fact that 99% of psychiatric patients require more than 5 minutes time if you're actually going to provide good care.
Can someone make 500k in psych working 55-60hrs/wk without providing substandard care?
 
Can someone make 500k in psych working 55-60hrs/wk without providing substandard care?

I suspect so, even without developing a special niche. You could take a standard 40 hour/week job for $300k or more, then still have 15-20 hours left to moonlight each week on the weekends, or develop an outpatient panel. That might come in a little lower, but probably in the ballpark.
 
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Look Sluox,

All I'm saying is that I know there is a perfectly legal way to do this and that is what I have always and will always want to do. I'm still a trainee now though. I just feel bad being accused here by people who don't even know me that I'm trying to defraud the government and then they start disliking my posts? What gives? Lol

I think the reason your post has gotten this reaction from some posters here is that they (and I) view what you are proposing as jeopardizing patient welfare in order to make an outsized amount of money.
 
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myPsychAlt,

I don’t want to divulge too much details, but yes I am not PGY4 and I am currently a resident.

I’m the end of the day, no matter how many patients I see per day, I won’t reach my ultimate goal. I only initially suggested it as a means to make rapid money right out of residency so that I could easily scale my income through what I really want to do which is creating an actual practice with multiple physicians/NP/PA working within then expand very aggressively eventually into multi-specialty/HMO style structure that I am owning/managing. This is one of my dreams. I’d love to discuss it more. And sorry for snapping I have a tendency to react like that in the way you mentioned sometimes.
 
I suspect so, even without developing a special niche. You could take a standard 40 hour/week job for $300k or more, then still have 15-20 hours left to moonlight each week on the weekends, or develop an outpatient panel. That might come in a little lower, but probably in the ballpark.
The general cardiologists who are making ~500k/yr also work these hours...
 
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Bartelby,

Well that is not what I intended to communicate to you all. I actually really care for my patients and I wouldn’t want to put them in harms way ever. However, I do tend to notice that some doctors talk to their patients excessively daily about essentially nothing and I am left to wonder that when the day comes when I am independent, will choosing not to do this extraneous act that a social worker can do by providing them regular therapy make me a bad doctor? After all there is a psychiatrist shortage and conducting ourselves as therapists seems to me like a disservice to the community at large
 
myPsychAlt,

...what I really want to do which is creating an actual practice with multiple physicians/NP/PA working within then expand very aggressively eventually into multi-specialty/HMO style structure that I am owning/managing. This is one of my dreams. I’d love to discuss it more.

I think this is much more along the right lines if you want to make seven figures.
 
I don't think that psychiatrists need to perform psychotherapy, and I think there is certainly room for "team leader" physicians who handle larger patient volumes by properly utilizing the skillsets of the interdisciplinary team. No doubt, if you have a psychologist, social worker, nurses, health techs etc. on the team a lot of the therapeutic work can happen without your direct involvement. Still, you will need to do more than just tweak medication doses. You need to, for example:

-do careful diagnostic work, including reviewing charts and collateral (even if someone else gathers it),
-spend enough time to make some connection with the patient, because while therapy is optional building some degree of rapport is essential,
-perform risk evaluations,
-give direction to your team and participate in interdisciplinary discussions,
-talk with outpatient physicians (occasionally), and physician consultants (occasionally),
-be available for a range of urgent issues.

This means you don't need to spend time sitting for therapy, but you don't want to dive in too deep and have to discard many of the above functions because you don't have the time. I think those are part of the job. If you are particularly efficient and can manage all of the above in less time than average, that's totally fine! I don't believe, though, that anyone is efficient enough to handle multiple 50-patient units that way. I think the quality of care would have to suffer.
 
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Can someone make 500k in psych working 55-60hrs/wk without providing substandard care?

Absolutely, but it depends on the location and type of job. Expert witness work would rake in that kind of money. Some of the locums gigs out there pay about 8 - 10K a week, especially in places like Wyoming or Montana or rural Idaho. If you do cash only practice in Manhattan or LA, you likely will also clear that. You could also just work in those areas (meaning rural areas, not NYC or LA) and make good money. Every now and then, I'll see a job in the Dakotas for 400K. With some moonlighting, you can likely make it over the 500K threshold. Other option is to have contracts with multiple places and hire midlevels or open a large clinic with other physicians (the caveat being it'll take a lot longer to build to that level). The point is the way to get to the higher figures in psychiatry is by doing these types of things, not stacking up a bunch of 50-person inpatient units and think you can provide good care by evaluating over 100 inpatients a day.
 
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Hey to you all especially Bartelby,

Yes, this definitely sounds like something I want and have always wanted to do and persist at. I want to maximize the amount of patients I see initially without compromising care, but eventually transition into incorporating other providers into the practice once I contract directly with the hospitals.

The only difference from what you are suggesting and what I want to do is that if I didn’t hire midlevels and just hired doctors straight up then I wouldn’t have to provide any supervision at all. Imagine if I was operating a 10+ Physician group a few years out of residency? That could be extremely lucrative far beyond what even the most highly specialized physician could make on his own.

And imagine how much I could sell that practice to if I built it up further to PE/VC. Jeeze it would be ridiculous money...
 
A good way to make some easy money if you have good intel is to report Medicare fraud as a whistle blower. This is governed by a law from the civil war, the false claims act which entitles the whistleblower to 15-30% of the collections from a fraud bust. Since psychiatric Medicare fraud cases typically are in the tens of millions it’s a nice source of “passive income” for those in the know...
 
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How does one get into this line of work? Through forensic psychiatry?
Forensic psychiatry fellowship is preferable. Otherwise build some kinda niche. For example i got BIM boarded via practice pathway. Forensics plus BIM = tbi capital case which by itself us worth 200 hours (at double your highest clinical hourly). With BIM and no forensics you cab can get a lot if MVA personal injury cases in the 7k range.
 
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A good way to make some easy money if you have good intel is to report Medicare fraud as a whistle blower. This is governed by a law from the civil war, the false claims act which entitles the whistleblower to 15-30% of the collections from a fraud bust. Since psychiatric Medicare fraud cases typically are in the tens of millions it’s a nice source of “passive income” for those in the know...

So, uh, exactly where in Wyoming were you intending to practice, OP? I need to know for...reasons. Tell me again how many minutes you are spending on each of your billing codes...
 
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How does one go about securing contracts with systems so that one could employ employees to fulfill those contractual obligations?
 
I think this is much more along the right lines if you want to make seven figures.
Though LOL if you think you're going to do it anywhere near the first year out of residency.
 
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The only difference from what you are suggesting and what I want to do is that if I didn’t hire midlevels and just hired doctors straight up then I wouldn’t have to provide any supervision at all. Imagine if I was operating a 10+ Physician group a few years out of residency? That could be extremely lucrative far beyond what even the most highly specialized physician could make on his own.

And imagine how much I could sell that practice to if I built it up further to PE/VC. Jeeze it would be ridiculous money...

ok, but as an attending psych MD where my job prospects are numerous and lucrative even in the relatively saturated market that I'm in, what's my incentive to work for you?
 
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Based on a quick look at locums ads, it shouldn't be hard to pull close million which would put a lot of this discussion to bed. Even for a fresh out of residency grad...

Correctional locums 275/hr x 40hr x 50 weeks = 550k
Locums/telepsych/whatever 200/hr x 20 hours x 50 weeks = 200k
Weekend coverage 5k/weekend x 26 weekends = 130k

Total 880k a year. All of these jobs and their rates seem very readily available.
 
How does one go about securing contracts with systems so that one could employ employees to fulfill those contractual obligations?

You really don't. However, you could set yourself up as a corporation and make it clear to the hospitals you're contracting with that your "group" would be covering the services (similar to other specialty groups that contract out like ER, Anesthesia, surgical subspecialities, etc). Again, there's no incentive for this setup to even happen. You're going to be hard pressed to find the person that's dumb enough to come work for you instead of just going directly to said hospital and offering to work 1099 for the same rate you'd be paying them (since the only way this works out is that you take some sort of cut of the hourly rate). So say you're offering me $180 to cover an inpatient unit through your "company", I know you're billing for more than that, so I can go to the hospital and say "hey, you give me this contract and I'll cover this unit for $180/hr for you". What are you offering that I can't just get from the hospital? Also, these high rates people are citing aren't really contact rates...they're locums rates which are innately short term.

Inpatient isn't like outpatient where once you grow your patient base to the point that you can't schedule in more people, you can start bringing others into the practice (if people are willing to work for you, which is a big if since PP is so easy in psych) and slowly get more profitable over time. There's no patient base to grow inpatient. You're covering a set max number of beds/patients.

Based on a quick look at locums ads, it shouldn't be hard to pull close million which would put a lot of this discussion to bed. Even for a fresh out of residency grad...

Correctional locums 275/hr x 40hr x 50 weeks = 550k
Locums/telepsych/whatever 200/hr x 20 hours x 50 weeks = 200k
Weekend coverage 5k/weekend x 26 weekends = 130k

Total 880k a year. All of these jobs and their rates seem very readily available.

Yes but are all those locums jobs within an hour of each other? And again stringing together multiple locums jobs means you're probably working exclusively at crappy places that nobody else wants to work for some reason. Can be done for sure but is almost sure to burn someone out and remember that locums positions aren't designed to be permanent positions...so you'd constantly be chasing new locums spots every year trying to maintain that income (while working every weekday 12-14hrs a day when you account for some inefficiency and every other weekend).
 
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Based on a quick look at locums ads, it shouldn't be hard to pull close million which would put a lot of this discussion to bed. Even for a fresh out of residency grad...

Correctional locums 275/hr x 40hr x 50 weeks = 550k
Locums/telepsych/whatever 200/hr x 20 hours x 50 weeks = 200k
Weekend coverage 5k/weekend x 26 weekends = 130k

Total 880k a year. All of these jobs and their rates seem very readily available.

The other problem beyond what @calvnandhobbs68 pointed out is that the first two gigs are pretty unlikely to tolerate the schedule of the other one. Prisons and jails don't strike me as the most flexibly scheduled places.

The reason I asked @Psychdoc4755 about where he was in training to to inquire about his workflow presently and how often he's used to sh-t hitting the fan in the inpatient and outpatient settings and how to respond when a normal 20 min eval turns into a two hour clusterf-ck, as well as what comments he's gotten from attendings about his workflow and the quality of management of such.
 
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The other problem beyond what @calvnandhobbs68 pointed out is that the first two gigs are pretty unlikely to tolerate the schedule of the other one. Prisons and jails don't strike me as the most flexibly scheduled places.

The reason I asked @Psychdoc4755 about where he was in training to to inquire about his workflow presently and how often he's used to sh-t hitting the fan in the inpatient and outpatient settings and how to respond when a normal 20 min eval turns into a two hour clusterf-ck, as well as what comments he's gotten from attendings about his workflow and the quality of management of such.

FWIW, the jail openings I've seen are open to 4x10s, temp to hire. Maybe something is left out of the ad there, but seems reasonably flexible and potentially permanent. I think the extra 20 hour of moonlighting can easily be done telepsych, so from home, and essentially permanent. I don't doubt these locum jobs are often crap, but I'd imagine there have to be enough out there to find something a least mediocre.
 
Based on a quick look at locums ads, it shouldn't be hard to pull close million which would put a lot of this discussion to bed. Even for a fresh out of residency grad...

Correctional locums 275/hr x 40hr x 50 weeks = 550k
Locums/telepsych/whatever 200/hr x 20 hours x 50 weeks = 200k
Weekend coverage 5k/weekend x 26 weekends = 130k

Total 880k a year. All of these jobs and their rates seem very readily available.

Most telepsych does not pay 200/hr. Also, it's not a free-for-all. If you agree to do locums correctional for 40 hours a week, that's going to be a 9-5 job. You don't get to set your own hours and come in at 2 pm just because you want to. If you agree to do locums inpatient/outpatient, that is also very likely going to be during the day. So how are you going to be in two places at once?

Your plan also suggests working every other weekend in addition to a 60-hour M-F workweek even if you could make it work. What's the point of having that money when you're never going to use it?
 
Most telepsych does not pay 200/hr. Also, it's not a free-for-all. If you agree to do locums correctional for 40 hours a week, that's going to be a 9-5 job. You don't get to set your own hours and come in at 2 pm just because you want to. If you agree to do locums inpatient/outpatient, that is also very likely going to be during the day. So how are you going to be in two places at once?

Your plan also suggests working every other weekend in addition to a 60-hour M-F workweek even if you could make it work. What's the point of having that money when you're never going to use it?

I'm not suggesting I'd ever want to work this schedule. This is more just theoretical since this threads been about how one could make a mil a year. Like I was saying, most of these jail jobs I've seen (at least on the west coast) are open to 4x10s. That leaves 8 hours of telepsych or whatever on Fridays. Then two 4 hour shifts or an 8 hour shift in the evening covering ED/crisis center as an example. That doesn't seem too bad if one were so inclined to work that amount of hours. The every other weekend work would be too much. At most, once a month would be the max I'd add on.
 
I'm not suggesting I'd ever want to work this schedule. This is more just theoretical since this threads been about how one could make a mil a year. Like I was saying, most of these jail jobs I've seen (at least on the west coast) are open to 4x10s. That leaves 8 hours of telepsych or whatever on Fridays. Then two 4 hour shifts or an 8 hour shift in the evening covering ED/crisis center as an example. That doesn't seem too bad if one were so inclined to work that amount of hours. The every other weekend work would be too much. At most, once a month would be the max I'd add on.

ED/crisis centers have set shifts in my experience. You can't just pick one up for 4 hours in most places. Many psych EDs are covered overnight by residents and/or NPs and the ones looking for docs are looking for coverage for the whole shift, not just 4 hours here or there. They have set shifts during the day and night, so for instance, you work 7 - 4 or 4 - midnight or midnight - 7. So logistically this would be very difficult to do even if one has the desire.
 
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Someone needs to post their 1099 and/or W2 here to show that it can be done... I did not think it was possible to make 500k+/yr as a hospitalist until I met someone who made ~750k on a 1099 gig...
 
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ED/crisis centers have set shifts in my experience. You can't just pick one up for 4 hours in most places. Many psych EDs are covered overnight by residents and/or NPs and the ones looking for docs are looking for coverage for the whole shift, not just 4 hours here or there. They have set shifts during the day and night, so for instance, you work 7 - 4 or 4 - midnight or midnight - 7. So logistically this would be very difficult to do even if one has the desire.
You could probably build up the telework clinic, but if you do that while employed you're going to be at the whims of your employer where they need you to see their patients. Some might be accommodating, but if you're unreasonable they won't bother with you unless they're really desperate.
 
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You gonna round on 56 patients a day and expect to have your notes and everything else completely wrapped up after 14 hours? Anyway, I'm not aware of any pre-specified amount of time people are required to have face to face time with patients on the inpatient side. On the weekends, a lot of those encounters are less than 15 minutes given that you're just making sure the existing patients stay stable.

If you're working with residents you legally don't have any amount of time you have to spend with a patient, you literally just have to lay eyes on them and note that case was discussed with resident.

Can someone make 500k in psych working 55-60hrs/wk without providing substandard care?

Easily. Cash only practice at $200/hour x 60 hours x 50 weeks is $500k/yr. $300/hr x 50 hours and 50 weeks is $750k/yr.

Prisons and jails don't strike me as the most flexibly scheduled places.

You'd be surprised. A co-resident moonlights at a nearby prison and works a 5-7pm or 6-8pm shift or something like that 3 nights a week. I think he makes $120/hr, but not sure.
 
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If you're working with residents you legally don't have any amount of time you have to spend with a patient, you literally just have to lay eyes on them and note that case was discussed with resident.



Easily. Cash only practice at $200/hour x 60 hours x 50 weeks is $500k/yr. $300/hr x 50 hours and 50 weeks is $750k/yr.



You'd be surprised. A co-resident moonlights at a nearby prison and works a 5-7pm or 6-8pm shift or something like that 3 nights a week. I think he makes $120/hr, but not sure.

I would imagine filling 60 hours a week of cash paying patients wouldn't happen overnight, even at a low cash rate of 200/hr. That would also be 600k a year if working 50 weeks a year.
 
To psyguru,

If one were to forgo the forensics fellowship and quickly get BIM boarded to begin to build a reputation as an MVA case analysis psychiatrist, can one do these remotely? Or do I need to be in person? I figure remote work is becoming more attractive anyways these days and I could easily Zoom the patient and compile evidence and charge my typical hourly rate at $500++/hr
 
To clausewitz2,

Yea man. I was actually going to practice in Northern Alaska. Come meet me there. There's this city called Barrow, Alaska with locums rates of $1500++/hr man its sick and 24/7 call pays same rate so that's 5M++ per year!
 
myPsychAlt,

Regarding a physician's incentive to work for me over the hospital? Throughout history, there have been very smart, savvy people who have creative incentive out of nothing. What's my incentive to buy a personal computer when my typewriter writes just as fine? The answer is you create a need through brilliant marketing, strong leadership, and a vision with constant persistence and drive
 
calvnandhobbs68,

I think you are assuming doctors are smart enough to figure out the business of healthcare and do their own negotiations with hospital systems. Dude, most doctors would rather take a guaranteed salary any day even if it mean tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars less pay than actually negotiate and handle business and billing on their own. And that's on the inpatient and outpatient sides. Business and money intimidates 80-09% of doctors and they don't want to go near it or ever deal with insurance companies/hospital administrators.

And you also mentioned that it would be hard to string together locums jobs due to them not being within the same geographic location. What about telepsychiatry opportunities? Doesn't that negate your whole argument?
 
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myPsychAlt,

Regarding my performance. I'm confident in my ability to handle ****-hit-the-fan type scenarios. I'm an extremely fast and efficient worker if you haven't noticed from how I respond to everyone on this forum. I would have made an amazing defense attorney if I ever went down that line of work..
 
Mass Effect,

You said most tele-psychiatry does not pay more than 200/hr? I believe that to be a false claim. I've heard of higher rates and I'm beginning to think that $200/hr is the new minimum in psychiatry.

And one last thing... You said that you have to come in at certain times or something like that? Man.. in these contracts, locums or not, everything in negotiable and if they told me how I should be working I could just walk out the door and I'm sure they would be open to accommodate my schedule at the times I find convenient and appropriate.
 
Mass Effect,

You said most tele-psychiatry does not pay more than 200/hr? I believe that to be a false claim. I've heard of higher rates and I'm beginning to think that $200/hr is the new minimum in psychiatry.

Average is <$150/hr. I know a TON of telepsych docs making $100-140/hr. The rates are dropping fast lately. Psychiatrists are being terminated with Covid or getting salaries greatly reduced. They are all turning to telepsych. Instead of negotiating well, they are accepting the lower offers and are generally pleased to work at home. Other companies hear and lower their offers.
 
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Well TexasPhysician,

That's partially them to blame as you mentioned, they didn't negotiate well. There is always a way to get the rates you want if you are willing to make the sacrifices. You said it yourself. They are pleased to work at home. They don't feel the need to negotiate further. Sounds like well-fed sheep, not hungry wolves.

Anyways, I've personally heard of higher rates, but that's just me. Also, the COVID situation is temporary and in the end of the day, I think we can all acknowledge that of all the specialties out there, psychiatry is being hit the least hard compared to others..
 
Let’s say that you could temporarily manage working 70 hrs/week making $1 million. How long can you do it without burning out?

Say you want to build a huge practice instead. You can’t maintain your clinical hours and expand intelligently. Your salary will be GREATLY reduced in the short-term to accomplish this with huge expenses. You need to interview new hires (physician and support), manage background checks, enforce/create new policies, investigate expansion locations, negotiate contracts, meet with attorneys, attend to lawsuits, attend to unemployment claims, etc. Even if you outsource this, it’s incredibly expensive and you’ll lose 6 figures yearly. Every doc you add will have 0 patients initially and you’ll take a loss.

All is possible, but it’s painful.

Let’s compare to a small business minded psychiatrist. 30 clinical hours/week can net $375k and year 1 you could bring on a counselor. Yearly add on a counselor as they fill. Add on sports counseling and build your own clinic with green space next door. Add sports training in the green space and a PT center. Add another psychiatrist as you fill. Once you get to the point where you buy your own place, it’ll be cheaper than renting. PT centers can be started relatively cheaply with gradual expansion. Counselors have little overhead. Instead of high taxes, have your spouse qualify for real estate professional status. Yearly expand your real estate portfolio while minimizing taxes. A few years down the road, I can net more than the $1 million psychiatrist in half the hours or less. The minimal expenses don’t leave me hurting along the way. The 30 clinical hours remain enjoyable and I can do it forever. It may never be huge, but it’s easily manageable.
 
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