Warning. Do not go into pathology

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Most pap tests are "client billed". The physician office pays you like 20 bucks and then takes the insurance reimbursement. The big labs can get their client pricing very low since they get supplies cheaper and force more productivity out of their techs.

Bottom line, Docs are looking for the cheapest path labs they can find. I am seeing a lot of client billing on derm specimens too. We've lost a lot of buisness in the last few years in derm because we refuse to play ball. A notorious sweat shop is doing them for practically nothing in the area.

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My opinion is that the US Pathology Job Market is terrible; and there are a few nationwide surveys that support my opinion. One is an ASCP Resident Survey from 1996 available on the Internet at:

If you're trying to make a point, it would be best to not use as your leading argument a 15 year old survey. In 1996 I was trying to decide whether to use excite or lycos to do internet searches.
 
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...In 1996 I was trying to decide whether to use excite or lycos to do internet searches.

Haven't heard those names mentioned in awhile. That takes me back to my college days when I preferred using Infoseek or Altavista, haha...
 
Most pap tests are "client billed". The physician office pays you like 20 bucks and then takes the insurance reimbursement. The big labs can get their client pricing very low since they get supplies cheaper and force more productivity out of their techs.

Bottom line, Docs are looking for the cheapest path labs they can find. I am seeing a lot of client billing on derm specimens too. We've lost a lot of buisness in the last few years in derm because we refuse to play ball. A notorious sweat shop is doing them for practically nothing in the area.

What do you expect. For-profit medicine generates for-profit behavior even in non-profit institutions like academic centers.
 
I know, but is just sucks because I dont feel like other physicians have to get referrals based on how much profit they are willing to share with other physicians. I dont think it is fair that physicians can tell us that they will send specimens to our lab if we let THEM bill for a test WE are doing. It is self referral and causes test overutilization. I wish it worked this way for other physicians. Then this kind of stuff would get outlawed quick. Would love to see a GP ask an OBGYN how much revenue he/she is willing to share from a colpo for a referral.

Bottom line, it is getting harder and harder to recommend going into pathology to anyone. Way too many billing abuses going on out there and it is getting worse. Profit margins are falling (due to fee splitting and client billing) which is giving rise to the sweat shop labs. You have to sign out more cases just to keep the doors open.
 
I know, but is just sucks because I dont feel like other physicians have to get referrals based on how much profit they are willing to share with other physicians. I dont think it is fair that physicians can tell us that they will send specimens to our lab if we let THEM bill for a test WE are doing. It is self referral and causes test overutilization. I wish it worked this way for other physicians. Then this kind of stuff would get outlawed quick. Would love to see a GP ask an OBGYN how much revenue he/she is willing to share from a colpo for a referral.

Bottom line, it is getting harder and harder to recommend going into pathology to anyone. Way too many billing abuses going on out there and it is getting worse. Profit margins are falling (due to fee splitting and client billing) which is giving rise to the sweat shop labs. You have to sign out more cases just to keep the doors open.


A few points.

Medicare doesn't allow clinicians to bill for pathology services unless they are performed and interpreted in the same facility.

A group of family docs could try to hire an OB, pay her a salary and then bill for her services.

Pathologists that own their own labs and flow cytometry machines definitely abuse the system too. I have seen slide reviews from private groups where they do insane amount of immunos or do things like order HPV studies and p16 on every block from a squam case or piling on FISH probes on to a lymphoma case when the answer is obvious on H&E with a few immunos. I have seen cases from private groups where it is an obvious invasive carcinoma into muscle on H&E and they ordered keratin and SMA to prove it. Obviously these pathologists are incetivized to order these unnecessary tests. So maybe pathologists shouldn't be allowed to order tests from labs where they are part owner.

America is a capitalist country and medicine is no different. You figure out how to make a buck off someone else or someone is going to make a buck off you.
 
You posted 2 years ago that you liked IM and picked pathology for the lifestyle. It's never too late to do something different. If you are this unhappy, then move on.

But you don't get it. It's the job market's fault! He was promised 30 hour weeks and 500k to start despite not being able to write coherently!
 
A few points.

Medicare doesn't allow clinicians to bill for pathology services unless they are performed and interpreted in the same facility.

A group of family docs could try to hire an OB, pay her a salary and then bill for her services.

Pathologists that own their own labs and flow cytometry machines definitely abuse the system too. I have seen slide reviews from private groups where they do insane amount of immunos or do things like order HPV studies and p16 on every block from a squam case or piling on FISH probes on to a lymphoma case when the answer is obvious on H&E with a few immunos. I have seen cases from private groups where it is an obvious invasive carcinoma into muscle on H&E and they ordered keratin and SMA to prove it. Obviously these pathologists are incetivized to order these unnecessary tests. So maybe pathologists shouldn't be allowed to order tests from labs where they are part owner.

America is a capitalist country and medicine is no different. You figure out how to make a buck off someone else or someone is going to make a buck off you.

Good points and I agree totally. Labs are also guilty. Sometimes I wonder if they are trying to make up for their outrageously low client pricing by billing the crap out of patients for unnecessary immunos etc. Gotta make some money somewhere besides the medicare patients. I got low balled by some lab that was heavy into client billing and fee splitting. They were turning each endometrial biopsy into a 1500 expenditure because they ordered some FISH test and also did cytology on it somehow. Luckily they pissed off the obgyn office and i got the business back.
 
Rather than quoting a 1996 survey perhaps it would be more useful to quote the 2010 ASCP job market survey:

http://www.ascp.org/MainMenu/residents/2010-Fellowship-Job-Market-Surveys.aspx



For what it's worth everyone from my program (mid-tier east coast training program) has found a job in the past few years so the job market can't be all that bad.

Here is an article with some commentary.

CHICAGO, Ill. -- The following information was released by the American Society for Clinical Pathology:

More than half of post-graduate year three and four pathology resident respondents to the American Society for Clinical Pathology's (ASCP) Resident Council survey stated that they were interested in fellowships for the purpose of their long-term career interests. The remaining respondents indicated that fellowships were important to secure employment (35%) and because previously desired jobs were not available after their residencies (4%).

The annual Fellowship and Job Market Surveys are directed by ASCP each year in order to track trends on fellowships and the overall job market for pathologists-in-training, including residents and fellows. The surveys are conducted as part of the Resident In-Service Exam (RISE), the Fellow Forensic In-Service Exam (FISE), the Fellow In-Service Hematopathology Exam (FISHE), and the Fellow Transfusion Medicine In-Service Exam (TMISE). A total of 2,791 individuals in various levels of training participated in the in-service exams.

Key findings in the survey: The majority of residents (53%) had received one fellowship offer and 20% had received two. Ten percent had received no offers at the time of the survey, indicating that fellowship opportunities are still tight.

Since fellowship experience is seen as an important step in a pathologist's career, very few opt to go straight from a residency into the job market. Of those residents who formally applied to a job (93), 43% had received one job offer and 31% had received none. Accounting for about one-third of all accepted positions in the job market are those who receive an offer from and choose to stay as an attending at their training program.

Residents showed no major preference for a specific job type, with the percentages fairly evenly split among academic, community, no preference and other; the latter includes governmental, military and corporate (excluding reference laboratory) entities.

Jessica Kozel, MD, a third year resident at University of Missouri Healthcare in Columbia, Mo., and chair-elect of the ASCP Resident Council, rated the survey as a useful tool for residents, fellows and program directors.

"This survey's numbers provide realistic data about the opportunities that are available for those seeking fellowships and for fellows looking to get into the job market," Kozel said. "You are able to look at this information and see which areas are most competitive and what residents and fellows are really thinking."

Kozel also noted the results of survey questions related to a pathology fellowship match: Fifty-three percent of senior residents would prefer not to participate in a matching system. A matching system would allow residents to list fellowship opportunity in order of preference and then be matched up to the institutions based on those results.

A key component of the job search is salary. During the process of interviewing, residents reported that about one-quarter of all prospective employers did not disclose a starting annual salary (occurring twice as often for academic versus community practices). The majority of academic practices that did detail starting salaries offered less than $100,000 per year, whereas about 75 % of starting salaries in community practices were greater than $150,000.

The majority of those applying for pathology jobs after completing their fellowships took from one to six months to find a job. The ASCP survey broke the numbers down by specialty-forensic, hematopathology and transfusion medicine. Across the board, the majority did not plan on doing an additional fellowship in another subspecialty other than their current fellowships.

The survey also revealed that the starting salary numbers among these three subspecialties were disparate. Two-thirds of forensic fellows started at salaries less than $150,000 while an equal amount of transfusion medicine fellows began with salaries in the $150,000-$250,000 range. Nearly 80% of hematopathologists had starting salaries in the $150,000-$250,000 range. Fewer than half of forensic fellows received a sign-on bonus or moving expenses, whereas three-fourths of hematopathology and transfusion medicine fellows received at least one or the other.

Click here to see the entire survey.

Founded in 1922, ASCP is a professional society with 130,000 member pathologists, pathologists' assistants, residents, laboratory professionals and students. Based in Chicago, the ASCP provides excellence in education, certification, and advocacy on behalf of patients, pathologists, and laboratory professionals. Visit ASCP's Web site at www.ascp.org.
 
A key component of the job search is salary. During the process of interviewing, residents reported that about one-quarter of all prospective employers did not disclose a starting annual salary (occurring twice as often for academic versus community practices).

I found this to be true of the places I interviewed. They were very tight lipped about the $$$ until things got pretty far along.


The majority of academic practices that did detail starting salaries offered less than $100,000 per year, whereas about 75% of starting salaries in community practices were greater than $150,000.

Less than $100K? How does this jive with the supposed ACGME data that gets cited often around here saying it is much higher? Every time I try to tell people that getting $130-140K is good in academics people scoff, but this was the experience of many people that I know and trained with who took academic jobs (I didn't apply to any academic jobs). Again, less than 100K would be pretty low even by those standards so I'm not sure if this includes "instructor" positions or not, but still there is such a huge pay difference between academic and private that you really have to love the academics to give up the income difference.
 
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I found this to be true of the places I interviewed. They were very tight lipped about the $$$ until things got pretty far along.

Are you talking about partner salary or the starting salary.
 
I found this to be true of the places I interviewed. They were very tight lipped about the $$$ until things got pretty far along.




Less than $100K? How does this jive with the supposed ACGME data that gets cited often around here saying it is much higher? Every time I try to tell people that getting $130-140K is good in academics people scoff, but this was the experience of many people that I know and trained with who took academic jobs (I didn't apply to any academic jobs). Again, less than 100K would be pretty low even by those standards so I'm not sure if this includes "instructor" positions or not, but still there is such a huge pay difference between academic and private that you really have to love the academics to give up the income difference.



that 100k is really low. i started in private practice in 1988 at 100k and that was low for then!
 
I have had a very different experience from many of the posters on this site as far as the job market goes. I admit I went about searching a little differently, but here is how it went. I interviewed in 3 different cities and was offered a total of 6 jobs. Some more desirable than others. The least desirable was part-time, paid $150,000. The others were private practice and paid 250-300 to start, three with partnership tracks, and all with a good amount of vacation (4 to 9 weeks). I did have some experience and a subspecialty fellowship; however, I think the thing that helped me the most was persistence. And I cold called 3 of the practices that ended up offering me jobs, because they were in cities I wanted to live in. One other practice I had cold-called 3 years prior and kept in touch with the president who really wanted me to come work with them.

The key for me was to be bold, persistent, yet polite and pleasant, and to sell myself without being a cocky jerk. I would suggest that if there is an area or city in which you would like to live, research that city. Find out all of the pathology groups in that city (I used those sites that rate drs. to get names, addresses, and phone numbers) and call them. Say look, this is who I am. I hate to cold call you, but I really want to live in this city and this is what I bring to the table. Go to the state or local path meetings and be bold. Have business cards made on vistaprints.com for free, and hand them out. Sell yourself. After the interviews send handwritten thank you notes then follow up after a week or 2 with a phone call.

If you are a resident, the earlier you can contact people the better- if they are not hiring when you are a 2nd year, but they have heard from you, know your name, etc, you may make opportunities in the future. They may just have a job for you when you finish. If you know someone who knows them, ask that person to send an email or make a quick phone call after your initial contact.

I do not think the market is as bleak as lots of these folks say. In small to medium-sized cities, there are tons of opportunities- you just have to find them. I don't know about big cities, because I did not want to live in one.

Pathology is wonderful. It is fun, challenging, and an excellent career choice. The hours are good, the pay is good, and I for one plan to retire at 55 with a couple million in the bank.
 
I have had a very different experience from many of the posters on this site as far as the job market goes. I admit I went about searching a little differently, but here is how it went. I interviewed in 3 different cities and was offered a total of 6 jobs. Some more desirable than others. The least desirable was part-time, paid $150,000. The others were private practice and paid 250-300 to start, three with partnership tracks, and all with a good amount of vacation (4 to 9 weeks). I did have some experience and a subspecialty fellowship; however, I think the thing that helped me the most was persistence. And I cold called 3 of the practices that ended up offering me jobs, because they were in cities I wanted to live in. One other practice I had cold-called 3 years prior and kept in touch with the president who really wanted me to come work with them.

The key for me was to be bold, persistent, yet polite and pleasant, and to sell myself without being a cocky jerk. I would suggest that if there is an area or city in which you would like to live, research that city. Find out all of the pathology groups in that city (I used those sites that rate drs. to get names, addresses, and phone numbers) and call them. Say look, this is who I am. I hate to cold call you, but I really want to live in this city and this is what I bring to the table. Go to the state or local path meetings and be bold. Have business cards made on vistaprints.com for free, and hand them out. Sell yourself. After the interviews send handwritten thank you notes then follow up after a week or 2 with a phone call.

If you are a resident, the earlier you can contact people the better- if they are not hiring when you are a 2nd year, but they have heard from you, know your name, etc, you may make opportunities in the future. They may just have a job for you when you finish. If you know someone who knows them, ask that person to send an email or make a quick phone call after your initial contact.

I do not think the market is as bleak as lots of these folks say. In small to medium-sized cities, there are tons of opportunities- you just have to find them. I don't know about big cities, because I did not want to live in one.

Pathology is wonderful. It is fun, challenging, and an excellent career choice. The hours are good, the pay is good, and I for one plan to retire at 55 with a couple million in the bank.

This is more representative of my experience with the private job market and how I found my job. Take it for what it is worth....
 
Personally, the circumstances would have to be unusual for me to waste my time on a place that couldn't provide me a ballpark starting salary before I trekked for an interview. I think would get downright agitated if someone asked what I would be willing to take prior to offering a ballpark. It's just too reminiscent of shopping for a Wolex wistwatch in a southeast asian alley.
 
I have had a very different experience from many of the posters on this site as far as the job market goes. I admit I went about searching a little differently, but here is how it went. I interviewed in 3 different cities and was offered a total of 6 jobs. Some more desirable than others. The least desirable was part-time, paid $150,000. The others were private practice and paid 250-300 to start, three with partnership tracks, and all with a good amount of vacation (4 to 9 weeks)..

Wow that is great. I have zero incentive to ever hire someone FT at more than 175K with +5% COLA. Partnership track jr. people unless they are biz/marketing savants and actually pay for themselves with new business make no sense to me personally.

Im honest about it though, which I think is key.
 
I have had a very different experience from many of the posters on this site as far as the job market goes. I admit I went about searching a little differently, but here is how it went. I interviewed in 3 different cities and was offered a total of 6 jobs. Some more desirable than others. The least desirable was part-time, paid $150,000. The others were private practice and paid 250-300 to start, three with partnership tracks, and all with a good amount of vacation (4 to 9 weeks). I did have some experience and a subspecialty fellowship; however, I think the thing that helped me the most was persistence. And I cold called 3 of the practices that ended up offering me jobs, because they were in cities I wanted to live in. One other practice I had cold-called 3 years prior and kept in touch with the president who really wanted me to come work with them.

The key for me was to be bold, persistent, yet polite and pleasant, and to sell myself without being a cocky jerk. I would suggest that if there is an area or city in which you would like to live, research that city. Find out all of the pathology groups in that city (I used those sites that rate drs. to get names, addresses, and phone numbers) and call them. Say look, this is who I am. I hate to cold call you, but I really want to live in this city and this is what I bring to the table. Go to the state or local path meetings and be bold. Have business cards made on vistaprints.com for free, and hand them out. Sell yourself. After the interviews send handwritten thank you notes then follow up after a week or 2 with a phone call.

If you are a resident, the earlier you can contact people the better- if they are not hiring when you are a 2nd year, but they have heard from you, know your name, etc, you may make opportunities in the future. They may just have a job for you when you finish. If you know someone who knows them, ask that person to send an email or make a quick phone call after your initial contact.

I do not think the market is as bleak as lots of these folks say. In small to medium-sized cities, there are tons of opportunities- you just have to find them. I don't know about big cities, because I did not want to live in one.

Pathology is wonderful. It is fun, challenging, and an excellent career choice. The hours are good, the pay is good, and I for one plan to retire at 55 with a couple million in the bank.

2 million SOUNDS good but at a SAFE withdrawal rate of 4%,which in 95% of scenarios will assure that you don't out live your money you will only be able to withdraw $80,000/year and that is before taxes---not so good if you are used to 450k/year.
 
point taken, mike. was just talking off the cuff about the couple million. i do have other sources of income, am not accustomed to making 450K and if i ever do i will have a lot more than 2 million in the bank cause i will save a lot more, and my house will be paid off in 15 years.
thanks for the financial advice though :)
 
Mike-

A million isnt cool, you know what's cool? A Billion. A Billion Dollars.


You sound like Sean Parker from Social Network...

Trust me, today's residents will happy they can survive a career in medicine and after 30 years have enough to be solidly lower middle class in retirement, probably somewhere like Fresno, Waco or Stillwater where the COS is double digit percentages below the national average.

A standard well trained pathologist with a solid academic fellowship is worth to me about 150,000US Dollars for full time work. That is the amount I could pay and get a DOZEN individuals+ pounding on my door and asking to take the position. Hell, BEGGING to take the position.

The thought of hiring someone and paying them 300....or 450 as you say a year is absurd. The market simply doesnt support that.

I would MAYBE pay Juan Rosai 450. Maybe.

Im actually considering doing an experiment now. What is the lowest amount I could pay someone to sign out ALL MY CASES while I spend 4-6 months doing something else...Im thinking I could swing 80K for a competent pathologist, maybe less (I work PT).\


To think people might be getting 300K offers now is ludacris. I just chatted with one pathologist who initially got an offer of FT employment at a POD Urology set up for 65-75K/year+benes. hahaha

welcome to the jungle.
 
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Times must be tough out in California. :)
 
Mike-



To think people might be getting 300K offers now is ludacris. I just chatted with one pathologist who initially got an offer of FT employment at a POD Urology set up for 65-75K/year+benes. hahaha

welcome to the jungle.

Wow...that is exploitation at the max.
 
Mike





To think people might be getting 300K offers now is ludacris. I just chatted with one pathologist who initially got an offer of FT employment at a POD Urology set up for 65-75K/year+benes. hahaha

welcome to the jungle.

I kind of find that hard to believe. Signing out prostate biopsies 8 hours a day would generate leboit bank
 
I kind of find that hard to believe. Signing out prostate biopsies 8 hours a day would generate leboit bank

If I had a simple 10-man Urologist practice, I would pay a pathologist 7K/mo+benefits. They would sign out maybe 4 hours a day, kick back the rest of day. Perhaps hit the beach, I dont care.

I would generate 25K+ off them, after payroll taxes and benefits (just healthcare+dental) lets call it a 14K profit per month I didnt see otherwise. Heck, maybe you have a TC lab, maybe you pick ANOTHER 25 on the back end each month of that.

Now I havent signed out a single case and Im pulling down $468,000/yr if I have a small TC lab running, $168,000 if I dont and just sit on my butt and play computer games all day.

I could get a line around the block of BC pathologists willing to do that. Women contemplating motherhood, semi-retired chaps, folks that have money and just want the lifestyle, people that are desperate for anything (and there is a boatload full of those). Any number of people.

Would they be J. Epstein quality pathologists? No. Of course not. But you do NOT need 3 fellowships to sign out prostate biopsies and urines all day folks.

The point being is the guys with the contracts, the guys with the dealmaking skills own the whole shabang, the whole show.

They dont need to share the pie with you. That IS Capitalism, children.

Workers making tacos at Taco Bell in Fresno arent in a profit sharing plan. The individual worker is 100% replaceable, often quickly. They churn out a consistent well defined product, a taco with all the fixings. That's it.

This commoditization of Pathology is spreading and spreading FAST.

Again, welcome to the jungle.
 
Why would the urologists get you involved at all if you are just a middle man? Why wouldn't they just hire a pathologist themselves and pocket all that extra cash

But I must say your model is good. In most businesses the employees should get no more than 33% of the revenue. so you are right on target with your salary of 7k a month.

They say NFL players get 50% and it is one of the reasons why there will be a lock out. They need to come down to 33% to be in line with all other corporations and businesses.

And I agree that Prostate bx has to be one of the most simplistic and least interesting areas of pathology. Seriously. It is not that interesting of an organ. The breast is also a lame organ and is 10x as complex and interesting as a prostate. Ovary, Liver, Brain, Lymph nodes, salivary glands...now those are organs that can produce some interesting path.

If I had a simple 10-man Urologist practice, I would pay a pathologist 7K/mo+benefits. They would sign out maybe 4 hours a day, kick back the rest of day. Perhaps hit the beach, I dont care.

I would generate 25K+ off them, after payroll taxes and benefits (just healthcare+dental) lets call it a 14K profit per month I didnt see otherwise. Heck, maybe you have a TC lab, maybe you pick ANOTHER 25 on the back end each month of that.

Now I havent signed out a single case and Im pulling down $468,000/yr if I have a small TC lab running, $168,000 if I dont and just sit on my butt and play computer games all day.

I could get a line around the block of BC pathologists willing to do that. Women contemplating motherhood, semi-retired chaps, folks that have money and just want the lifestyle, people that are desperate for anything (and there is a boatload full of those). Any number of people.

Would they be J. Epstein quality pathologists? No. Of course not. But you do NOT need 3 fellowships to sign out prostate biopsies and urines all day folks.

The point being is the guys with the contracts, the guys with the dealmaking skills own the whole shabang, the whole show.

They dont need to share the pie with you. That IS Capitalism, children.

Workers making tacos at Taco Bell in Fresno arent in a profit sharing plan. The individual worker is 100% replaceable, often quickly. They churn out a consistent well defined product, a taco with all the fixings. That's it.

This commoditization of Pathology is spreading and spreading FAST.

Again, welcome to the jungle.
 
Wow that is great. I have zero incentive to ever hire someone FT at more than 175K with +5% COLA. Partnership track jr. people unless they are biz/marketing savants and actually pay for themselves with new business make no sense to me personally.

Im honest about it though, which I think is key.

That depends on your priority though. Not everyone's (of those who run groups or labs) priority is to bank as much cash as possible. Some want to improve their group or lab and work with better people. So these groups have more of an incentive to pay someone more and recruit better. If all you want is a warm body with adequate signout skills then fine. My group, for example, would never take this tactic.

The commoditization of pathology is only true up to a certain point. And that model only works for some practices, not others. Those affiliated with larger hospitals and institutions not so much.
 
I am a second year medical student interested in pathology who has been sitting back quietly and reading this forum for a while but I figured I would get my feet wet. I find this whole ongoing discussion about the job market to be really interesting and I was hoping someone could clarify a few things for me.

From what I have gathered, people are concerned with two separate (but related) issues: the ability to secure a job, and the salary of a job if you do secure one. I'm going to leave the issue of securing a job alone for right now. Now as for salary, I have heard posters describe friends who took academic jobs for around $100,000 and so on. Also, some of the reports posted here show the majority of academic pathologists start under $100,000.

My question is, how is that reconciled with the AAMC Report on Medical School Faculty Salaries? I only have the 2007-2008 report, but it shows the means as: Instructor: 141.6k (n=10), Assistant Professor: 185.8k (n=228), Associate Professor: 230.8k (n=140), Professor: 268.1k (n=197). This is for combined AP + CP.

I suppose the difference could be that this is from 07-08, but from the way you all have been talking it sounds like this "slump" has been going on for awhile. It could be that this is not a representative sample of pathologists, but the sample sizes except for instructor seem decent enough and the fact that it was done by the AAMC makes me hope they know what they are doing.

Do you think this is truly representative of the salaries of academic pathologists, or if not does anyone have a good reason why such an "official" report would be so far off?

Thanks in advance,
terriermed :)
 
I am a second year medical student interested in pathology who has been sitting back quietly and reading this forum for a while but I figured I would get my feet wet. I find this whole ongoing discussion about the job market to be really interesting and I was hoping someone could clarify a few things for me.

From what I have gathered, people are concerned with two separate (but related) issues: the ability to secure a job, and the salary of a job if you do secure one. I'm going to leave the issue of securing a job alone for right now. Now as for salary, I have heard posters describe friends who took academic jobs for around $100,000 and so on. Also, some of the reports posted here show the majority of academic pathologists start under $100,000.

My question is, how is that reconciled with the AAMC Report on Medical School Faculty Salaries? I only have the 2007-2008 report, but it shows the means as: Instructor: 141.6k (n=10), Assistant Professor: 185.8k (n=228), Associate Professor: 230.8k (n=140), Professor: 268.1k (n=197). This is for combined AP + CP.

I suppose the difference could be that this is from 07-08, but from the way you all have been talking it sounds like this "slump" has been going on for awhile. It could be that this is not a representative sample of pathologists, but the sample sizes except for instructor seem decent enough and the fact that it was done by the AAMC makes me hope they know what they are doing.

Do you think this is truly representative of the salaries of academic pathologists, or if not does anyone have a good reason why such an "official" report would be so far off?

Thanks in advance,
terriermed :)

Academic pathologists do not start under 100K, more like 100-150K. I think those numbers from AAMC seem accurate.
 
I am a second year medical student interested in pathology who has been sitting back quietly and reading this forum for a while but I figured I would get my feet wet. I find this whole ongoing discussion about the job market to be really interesting and I was hoping someone could clarify a few things for me.

From what I have gathered, people are concerned with two separate (but related) issues: the ability to secure a job, and the salary of a job if you do secure one. I'm going to leave the issue of securing a job alone for right now. Now as for salary, I have heard posters describe friends who took academic jobs for around $100,000 and so on. Also, some of the reports posted here show the majority of academic pathologists start under $100,000.

My question is, how is that reconciled with the AAMC Report on Medical School Faculty Salaries? I only have the 2007-2008 report, but it shows the means as: Instructor: 141.6k (n=10), Assistant Professor: 185.8k (n=228), Associate Professor: 230.8k (n=140), Professor: 268.1k (n=197). This is for combined AP + CP.

I suppose the difference could be that this is from 07-08, but from the way you all have been talking it sounds like this "slump" has been going on for awhile. It could be that this is not a representative sample of pathologists, but the sample sizes except for instructor seem decent enough and the fact that it was done by the AAMC makes me hope they know what they are doing.

Do you think this is truly representative of the salaries of academic pathologists, or if not does anyone have a good reason why such an "official" report would be so far off?

Thanks in advance,
terriermed :)

Those numbers are very accurate. They are derived from the common paymaster system of the academic medical centers after the books have been closed and audited. Those dollars are total compensation, which includes salary and bonuses. The figures do NOT include benefits, such as health insurance, retirement etc. There is regional variation in the salaries, but it is not that great. For example, pathologists in the southern part of the United States are paid 5% less than those in the Northeast.

The compensation listed is for academic pathologists. Based on my experience, most junior academic pathologists earn about 50 to 60% of private practice pathologists.
 
What he might be thinking of is that sometimes you start as a "clinical instructor" or some term like that which usually pays under 100k. But 130-150 for a first year assistant professor is the typical range.
 
And before you ask, what determines whether you are hired as an instructor or an assistant professor is how much you publish during residency. Normally, you need at least 3 publications during residency (not from your medical school or your PhD before residency) to qualify for assistant professor although some places require more than that.
 
Are you talking first author publications, or just any publication with your name on it?
 
... Normally, you need at least 3 publications during residency (not from your medical school or your PhD before residency) to qualify for assistant professor although some places require more than that.

This is very much institution dependent.
 
What he might be thinking of is that sometimes you start as a "clinical instructor" or some term like that which usually pays under 100k. But 130-150 for a first year assistant professor is the typical range.

Again, very institution dependent.

At Harvard, a well-published academic right out of fellowship can sit at instructor for several years before being promoted to assistant professor. Everyone out of fellowship starts at the instructor level, unlike almost every other academic institution. However, the starting salaries for instructor are in the 150-160ish range (before bonuses). In fact, at Harvard, your academic appointment is not related to salary.

I really don't know why people say there is such difficulty in the job market right now- all of our fellows have secured jobs with no issues, some have had multiple offers. Several colleagues have recently made the jump to private practice in expanding groups (and yes, they make considerably more money). There are several academic positions open in Boston right now, at both junior and senior levels.
 
This is very much institution dependent.

I agree, it may be more some places. I can't imagine, however, an institution requiring less than 3. After all, what is the actual difference between an instructor and an assistant prof if not publication record? Otherwise they are both just junior faculty that sign out cases.
 
The only clinical instructor/jr faculty position I have ever been offered for was about 80K.

That is the limit of my knowledge on this issue. I did not seek this out, it was just thrown at me as a possibility long long ago.
 
I'm a surg path assistant instructor this year and I get paid a little more than a PGY-4, even though I'm a PGY-6. (I already did another f/s.) We are referred to as "surg path fellows", but we sign out our cases independently and act as jr. faculty. The pay is not great, but it's been a great year. I've seen a lot of amazing cases.
For what it's worth, I have interviewed for 2 private jobs. One pays well, but it's a crazy schedule with really long hours. I know three people who left this group already due to the harsh lifestyle. The other is a dream job, and I am supposed to go back for a second interview. BUT there are SEVERAL outstanding candidates interviewing for this job, so I'm trying not to get my hopes up. There is also a rumor that my home institution is considering me should another faculty member leave, but no one has confirmed anything to me yet. I think they are still working that situation out.
So, I'm kind of in a holding pattern right now. And I should say that these results are after doing a LOT of cold calling, networking, and sending out CVs starting in Nov. Overall, I would say that the job market in my city is fair to poor for people coming out of training right now.
I really don't know what all of these residents are going to do. There's five of us fellows fighting to get jobs now. It's not good. But most of us are tied to the city. I feel sorry for the residents that want to stay in the area, especially the mediocre ones. To anyone considering path: get great training, plan ahead, and be willing to be aggressive about finding a job. It's not going to come to you.
 
I'm a surg path assistant instructor this year and I get paid a little more than a PGY-4, even though I'm a PGY-6. (I already did another f/s.) We are referred to as "surg path fellows", but we sign out our cases independently and act as jr. faculty. The pay is not great, but it's been a great year. I've seen a lot of amazing cases.
For what it's worth, I have interviewed for 2 private jobs. One pays well, but it's a crazy schedule with really long hours. I know three people who left this group already due to the harsh lifestyle. The other is a dream job, and I am supposed to go back for a second interview. BUT there are SEVERAL outstanding candidates interviewing for this job, so I'm trying not to get my hopes up. There is also a rumor that my home institution is considering me should another faculty member leave, but no one has confirmed anything to me yet. I think they are still working that situation out.
So, I'm kind of in a holding pattern right now. And I should say that these results are after doing a LOT of cold calling, networking, and sending out CVs starting in Nov. Overall, I would say that the job market in my city is fair to poor for people coming out of training right now.
I really don't know what all of these residents are going to do. There's five of us fellows fighting to get jobs now. It's not good. But most of us are tied to the city. I feel sorry for the residents that want to stay in the area, especially the mediocre ones. To anyone considering path: get great training, plan ahead, and be willing to be aggressive about finding a job. It's not going to come to you.

Do you always write this way?
 
I know it's a very conversational tone, and the grammar is not perfect. My reports are professional. I think my points are communicated effectively enough. I apologize if I'm unclear.
 
Does the sky always look like that?
 
Eh? Am to understand the Chair of English and Creative Writing at Harvard is visiting the SDN Path forums....?

It's really just the Department of English, I doubt Dr. Simpson would spend any time here, and I'm only a Senior Lecturer.
 
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