WashU vs. Emory vs. Northwestern

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kitkat08

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Hello everyone. I am very grateful to have these options, but I am having a difficult time making a decision. I will be an MSTP student, so cost is not something I have to consider (other than COL). In the future, I hope to match to a pediatric residency with a research track, ideally on the West Coast.

WashU St. Louis

Pros:
  • Very strong in my research interests (cancer immunology). Plenty of labs I could see myself joining
  • Match list is very impressive
  • MSTP administration seems very organized (communication has been very good throughout the season)
  • One of the largest MSTP cohorts (not sure if this is a pro or a con?)
  • Proximity to Forest Park (I enjoy biking and running)
  • Low COL
  • Apartment complex for students right on campus
  • P/F preclinical years, no AOA
  • Students seem to like the clinical immersions during M1 and M2


Cons:
  • Cold winters (I really dislike being cold)
  • Didn’t really love St. Louis at second look
  • Heard that the research environment can be kind of competitive and cutthroat, although current students say this is far from true
  • Some of the students I have talked to seemed really stressed and not as happy as students at other schools
  • Graded clerkships


Emory

Pros:
  • Warmth!
  • 3-4-1 MSTP curriculum (not sure if this is a pro or a con?)
  • Felt very welcomed by current students
  • Large airport nearby could be handy
  • Grady- Safety net hospital
  • Like how the undergrad campus is connected to the med school campus
  • Really love the city of Atlanta
  • Small group societies
  • Lots of opportunities to work with underserved communities in Atlanta
  • Pre-clinical and clerkships are P/F

Cons:
  • Fewer labs in my area of interest
  • Not ranked as highly as my other options?
  • I think some clinical rotations can be far from main campus



Northwestern

Pros:
  • Very strong hospital system with nice facilities
  • Living in a big city might be fun
  • Running/biking trails by the lakefront
  • Great food scene
  • Appreciate the strong emphasis on student wellness
  • ECHM during pre-clinical years
  • Ample housing options in walking distance

Cons:
  • Very cold and windy (I really dislike the cold)
  • Very high COL in downtown Chicago
  • Living in such a big city might be too overwhelming (if Chicago is anything like NYC, then being there for even a day stresses me out)
  • No clinical rotations prior to PhD
  • Probably the weakest in immunology/cancer bio out of all my options (still labs I can see myself joining though)
  • Might not be as easy to own a dog (I want to adopt a couple of puppies during grad school)

I had the chance to visit all of these options for second look. I absolutely loved Emory, and I felt really at home there. I can see myself thriving there and being happy. I didn’t get this feeling as much at Northwestern, and I really did not get this feeling at WashU. However, I feel obligated to go to WashU since it is considered the most “prestigious” among my options. Would it be foolish of me to turn down WashU for Emory? Would this decrease my chances of ultimately matching to a pediatric research residency on the West Coast? What would you do in my position? Any advice or insight about any of these programs would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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You don't need anyone's permission to not slave to the rankings. Emory has more than enough resources and prestige to get you wherever it is you are going. Maximize your odds of success by maximizing your happiness. Congratulations, and good luck!
 
kitkat08 said:
Do you think it would be a mistake to turn down that offer?
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I think that it depends on your ultimate goals. If you want to be a physician-scientist at UCSF, Stanford, UCLA etc., it behooves you to attend the highest ranked school it most cases. However it doesn’t really help if you’ll be miserable for 8 years and unproductive due to being unhappy.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
I think that it depends on your ultimate goals. If you want to be a physician-scientist at UCSF, Stanford, UCLA etc., it behooves you to attend the highest ranked school it most cases. However it doesn’t really help if you’ll be miserable for 8 years and unproductive due to being unhappy.
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Thanks for your advice. This is a lot to think about
 
WUSTL also has one of the largest, if not the largest, MSTP in the country, so having that additional support would be really nice, especially during your PhD years (which can be really isolating) and when returning in 4 years to clinicals.
 
indecisiveconvention said:
WUSTL also has one of the largest, if not the largest, MSTP in the country, so having that additional support would be really nice, especially during your PhD years (which can be really isolating) and when returning in 4 years to clinicals.
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So do you think it would be a mistake to turn down their offer?
 
While it's certainly a personal decision, I think it would be hard to pass over as their MSTP is highly regarded, has a huge support system, they are P/F, and there is no AOA, not to mention impressive match lists, strong immunology work, and overall the enormous research infrastructure that will support you throughout your MD/PhD years.
 
indecisiveconvention said:
While it's certainly a personal decision, I think it would be hard to pass over as their MSTP is highly regarded, has a huge support system, they are P/F, and there is no AOA, not to mention impressive match lists, strong immunology work, and overall the enormous research infrastructure that will support you throughout your MD/PhD years.
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It is certainly a great program, but I personally do not really want to live in St. Louis for the next 8 years of my life. Do you think this is a dumb reason to turn down the offer?
 
kitkat08 said:
It is certainly a great program, but I personally do not really want to live in St. Louis for the next 8 years of my life. Do you think this is a dumb reason to turn down the offer?
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if you think you'll be unhappy there, no i don't think it's a dumb reason. your choices are all excellent and will get you where you want to be
 
mangowolf said:
if you think you'll be unhappy there, no i don't think it's a dumb reason. your choices are all excellent and will get you where you want to be
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Thanks so much for your thoughts, I really appreciate it!
 
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kitkat08 said:
It is certainly a great program, but I personally do not really want to live in St. Louis for the next 8 years of my life. Do you think this is a dumb reason to turn down the offer?
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No, this is actually a fantastic reason to turn down the offer. WashU is absolutely stronger in cancer immuno than Emory is, but Emory is still a fantastic school with great research. How much you enjoy the city is an extremely important factor for MSTP selection.

Just to state this clearly, you should not have any regrets for choosing Emory's MSTP over WashU's. You are still going to do great and have strong support, and you will be much happier outside of school.

I can tell you first hand that the PhD will be TOUGH, and being in a city you dislike/hate will only make that objectively worse for you. It sounds like Emory is the right choice to me. Good luck!
 
Thanks for your advice! I do feel like I am risking my chances of matching into a pediatric research residency track by not choosing WashU (as I heard these are fairly competitive). Especially because I am hoping to match back to the West Coast. It seems like Emory tends to match people more to the East Coast? But maybe this is just because more people who are originally from the East Coast go to Emory?
 
kitkat08 said:
Thanks for your advice! I do feel like I am risking my chances of matching into a pediatric research residency track by not choosing WashU (as I heard these are fairly competitive). Especially because I am hoping to match back to the West Coast. It seems like Emory tends to match people more to the East Coast? But maybe this is just because more people who are originally from the East Coast go to Emory?
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If you loathe STL, I wouldn't recommend WashU, because you would hate it every second of it. Between Feinberg and Emory, I would pick Feinberg for its location and prestige. I have never been to Atlanta, other than transiting Lol.
 
srirachamayonnaise said:
If you loathe STL, I wouldn't recommend WashU, because you would hate it every second of it. Between Feinberg and Emory, I would pick Feinberg for its location and prestige. I have never been to Atlanta, other than transiting Lol.
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I do not loathe St. Louis, I would just prefer not to live there for such a long period of my life. So are you saying Feinberg is prestigious, but Emory isn’t ? I personally don’t love huge cities either and I do not like the cold, which is why Atlanta is perfect for me
 
kitkat08 said:
I do not loathe St. Louis, I would just prefer not to live there for such a long period of my life. So are you saying Feinberg is prestigious, but Emory isn’t ? I personally don’t love huge cities either and I do not like the cold, which is why Atlanta is perfect for me
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well, I think Feinberg is more prestigious.
 
Turned down WUTSL (which was T5 at the time) as well as another T10 for Feinberg (your PROs for it are all on-mark and was also not too keen on STL). HOWEVER, I was not MSTP nor interested in cancer immunology so can't speak to relative strengths. I know folks who went to Emory and enjoyed it and Atlanta (I didn't even get an II there). For me, QOL was a top consideration and I'm guessing it would be even more important if you're in it for the long haul. Again, I've never been interested in an academic track, but I can't imagine any of those 3 setting you back when it comes to matching to a top pediatric research program.
 
kitkat08 said:
Thanks for your advice! I do feel like I am risking my chances of matching into a pediatric research residency track by not choosing WashU (as I heard these are fairly competitive). Especially because I am hoping to match back to the West Coast. It seems like Emory tends to match people more to the East Coast? But maybe this is just because more people who are originally from the East Coast go to Emory?
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When matching as an MSTP and for PSTPs and research track residency programs, by far the most important factor is your research productivity. You will automatically be more competitive than virtually every MD-only applicant to research track programs because you will have a PhD, and what you do during grad school (i.e. basic research publications, review articles, grant funding, etc) will be a far bigger factor than the name of the school. I don't think name is as big of a factor as folks on here (usually premeds) make it seem, but this is doubly true for MD/PhD applicants. Research >>> school prestige. And going to a prestigious school will not save you from a lackluster publication record.

Wrt your second concern, match lists are extremely hard to interpret because it is based more on student preferences than anything else. Georgia is an East Coast state, so it makes perfect sense that more people *choose* to stay on the East Coast. But you can absolutely match back to the West Coast from there.
 
srirachamayonnaise said:
If you loathe STL, I wouldn't recommend WashU, because you would hate it every second of it. Between Feinberg and Emory, I would pick Feinberg for its location and prestige. I have never been to Atlanta, other than transiting Lol.
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Emory is quite a bit stronger in immunology than Northwestern. This isn't MD-only, research is a much bigger factor than school name when choosing MD/PhD programs.

Wrt your second comment, you're making a location recommendation based on your personal location preference. But it's very clear that OP would prefer to be somewhere warm and with a reasonable cost of living. Chicago is neither of those two things. Based on reading OP's list and what *they* want, this choice seems to be between WashU and Emory.
 
kitkat08 said:
I do not loathe St. Louis, I would just prefer not to live there for such a long period of my life. So are you saying Feinberg is prestigious, but Emory isn’t ? I personally don’t love huge cities either and I do not like the cold, which is why Atlanta is perfect for me
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I honestly think St. Louis is a really cool city and you'd probably like it a lot if you gave it a chance. Tons of stuff to do, and extremely cheap to live in. Winters do get colder than the South, but nowhere near the rest of the Midwest. I understand the pull to Atlanta though, because I also like it more than St. Louis. But I really like both cities.

I think you should weigh whether research or city is more important to you. WashU is an immunology juggernaut, and that includes cancer immunology, so it definitely gets the advantage there. But Emory also is pretty strong in immunology and I'm sure you can find a few productive labs you'd be interesting in potentially joining. Atlanta is a much warmer and larger city, but it's also quite a bit more expensive than St. Louis is but it's also much more diverse, which may be a consideration for you.

I'm happy to discuss this with you at length via message, if you'd like. But if not, just wanna emphasize that I really don't think you can make a wrong choice between the two.
 
sophop said:
Turned down WUTSL (which was T5 at the time) as well as another T10 for Feinberg (your PROs for it are all on-mark and was also not too keen on STL). HOWEVER, I was not MSTP nor interested in cancer immunology so can't speak to relative strengths. I know folks who went to Emory and enjoyed it and Atlanta (I didn't even get an II there). For me, QOL was a top consideration and I'm guessing it would be even more important if you're in it for the long haul. Again, I've never been interested in an academic track, but I can't imagine any of those 3 ysetting you back when it comes to matching to a top pediatric research program.
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Do you feel like turning down WashU has held you back in any way? Were You able to match to one of your top choices?
 
I'mInDer! said:
Emory is quite a bit stronger in immunology than Northwestern. This isn't MD-only, research is a much bigger factor than school name when choosing MD/PhD programs.

Wrt your second comment, you're making a location recommendation based on your personal location preference. But it's very clear that OP would prefer to be somewhere warm and with a reasonable cost of living. Chicago is neither of those two things. Based on reading OP's list and what *they* want, this choice seems to be between WashU and Emory.
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Yes, I really dislike the cold
 
I'mInDer! said:
I honestly think St. Louis is a really cool city and you'd probably like it a lot if you gave it a chance. Tons of stuff to do, and extremely cheap to live in. Winters do get colder than the South, but nowhere near the rest of the Midwest. I understand the pull to Atlanta though, because I also like it more than St. Louis. But I really like both cities.

I think you should weigh whether research or city is more important to you. WashU is an immunology juggernaut, and that includes cancer immunology, so it definitely gets the advantage there. But Emory also is pretty strong in immunology and I'm sure you can find a few productive labs you'd be interesting in potentially joining. Atlanta is a much warmer and larger city, but it's also quite a bit more expensive than St. Louis is but it's also much more diverse, which may be a consideration for you.

I'm happy to discuss this with you at length via message, if you'd like. But if not, just wanna emphasize that I really don't think you can make a wrong choice between the two.
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Thanks for your thoughts!
 
kitkat08 said:
Do you feel like turning down WashU has held you back in any way? Were You able to match to one of your top choices?
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Matched at #1 (a T5 where I couldn’t even get an II for MD). But like I and others have said, some magazine’s definition of ranking should probably among the least of your concerns when choosing between these three. I did well because things just clicked for my particular learning style, interests, and living environment. Go for what you think works best for yours.
 
OP - you clearly like Emory the best and it's a great school in a good location. You're not making a mistake by picking it over WUSTL. Sometimes it's not about intangible prestige and more about the things you value. You don't need to justify your value system to SDN.

voxveritatisetlucis said:
If you’re interested in academia, I would go with WUSTL
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OP can work in academia coming out an MD/PhD from either of these schools. Your black/white advice is kind of misleading.
 
Banco said:
OP - you clearly like Emory the best and it's a great school in a good location. You're not making a mistake by picking it over WUSTL. Sometimes it's not about intangible prestige and more about the things you value. You don't need to justify your value system to SDN.



OP can work in academia coming out an MD/PhD from either of these schools. Your black/white advice is kind of misleading.
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In life, there is a big difference between can and likely to. One can be 5’10 and make the NBA (look at Jose Alvarado)

Look at the rosters of places like CHOP, Children’s, etc. Sure, one can really go to any school and get a residency there. But one is definitely more likely to get there from a school like WUSTL over Emory.

I only gave this advice because OP said she was interested in academia (aka the most prestige driven subset of medicine). I’m not talking about clinical professorships, but rather full tenured research positions. The fact of the matter is that WUSTL creates far more of these candidates per capita than Emory. It’s nothing against Emory.

If OP said she wanted to be a clinical Peds professor or work in private practice, I would have said Emory all the way. But that is not the case (it appears). Everything in academia is prestige driven
 
I don't think anybody is arguing that WashU produces more physician-scientists who go into academia than Emory, but that's because they have the largest MSTP and produce more physician scientists than basically any school.

What I'm trying to emphasize, though, is that your lab and research matters a whole lot more than the name of the institution. That's what PSTP directors care about most. So a productive PhD at Emory will absolutely give them a great shot at the big name NE schools. But an MD/PhD takes 7-9 years and 3-5 of those years are spent doing a PhD.

If this were between WashU and a school with very weak cancer immunology research, I'd advise them to try their best to have fun in St. Louis (I personally think it's a great city). But Emory's cancer immunology research is strong enough that OP can seriously find a strong lab with a well-known and respected PI, and thrive.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
In life, there is a big difference between can and likely to. One can be 5’10 and make the NBA (look at Jose Alvarado)

Look at the rosters of places like CHOP, Children’s, etc. Sure, one can really go to any school and get a residency there. But one is definitely more likely to get there from a school like WUSTL over Emory.

I only gave this advice because OP said she was interested in academia (aka the most prestige driven subset of medicine). I’m not talking about clinical professorships, but rather full tenured research positions. The fact of the matter is that WUSTL creates far more of these candidates per capita than Emory. It’s nothing against Emory.

If OP said she wanted to be a clinical Peds professor or work in private practice, I would have said Emory all the way. But that is not the case (it appears). Everything in academia is prestige driven
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Now, do you think this is just because WashU is a much bigger MSTP to begin with (produces more physician scientists)? Emory class size is about 10, WashU is nearly 30
 
I meant per capita.

WashU is mentioned among the likes of Hopkins, Harvard, UCSF in medicine. Emory is more in the USC, UVA, Case tier of schools.

Don’t get me wrong, they are both great and your performance will largely dictate what you do post graduate. However, you might just have to do a bit more coming from Emory compared to WashU

I could give an alternate scenario. Say you go to washu, hate it, aren’t productive etc. then you would be far worse than if you had gone to Emory and been productive.

All of my comparisons are on a cet. Par. Basis and assume performance would be equivalent at each school.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
In life, there is a big difference between can and likely to. One can be 5’10 and make the NBA (look at Jose Alvarado)

Look at the rosters of places like CHOP, Children’s, etc. Sure, one can really go to any school and get a residency there. But one is definitely more likely to get there from a school like WUSTL over Emory.

I only gave this advice because OP said she was interested in academia (aka the most prestige driven subset of medicine). I’m not talking about clinical professorships, but rather full tenured research positions. The fact of the matter is that WUSTL creates far more of these candidates per capita than Emory. It’s nothing against Emory.

If OP said she wanted to be a clinical Peds professor or work in private practice, I would have said Emory all the way. But that is not the case (it appears). Everything in academia is prestige driven
Click to expand...

Prestige matters in academia, yes I agree, but it isn't as clear-cut of a decision as you're making it; rarely is that the only factor when deciding where to go to school/residency. That's why I stated OP needs to decide based on factors that are important to them. I'm certain neither of the options will hold OP back in any tangible way.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
I meant per capita.

WashU is mentioned among the likes of Hopkins, Harvard, UCSF in medicine. Emory is more in the USC, UVA, Case tier of schools.

Don’t get me wrong, they are both great and your performance will largely dictate what you do post graduate. However, you might just have to do a bit more coming from Emory compared to WashU

I could give an alternate scenario. Say you go to washu, hate it, aren’t productive etc. then you would be far worse than if you had gone to Emory and been productive.

All of my comparisons are on a cet. Par. Basis and assume performance would be equivalent at each school.
Click to expand...
Ok, I see what you are saying. Well, I have about 24 hrs to make a decision. Any last words of advice or plugs for a specific school?
 
WashU is the best option for your goals. But really, any of the three schools will get you where you want so just go with your heart. Congratulations!
 
Go with your heart here. No use sacrificing your happiness given that Emory is also a fantastic school with incredible resources.
 
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