Wayne State Clinical Psych, PhD vs. U of Florida Counseling Psych, PhD

[mee26]

Hey fellow SDNers,

I am in need of advice, and I greatly appreciate you reading this 🙂
So after a successful first application cycle, I will be finishing my undergrad soon, and starting a PhD program in the Fall.
I applied to both clinical and counseling programs, and now I am torn between 2 schools that I really like. I have an offer from Wayne State University's Clinical Psychology PhD and University of Florida's Counseling Psych PhD. The reason I am having such a hard time picking between the two is because they are both similar in certain ways, but then have unique pros and cons that also sort of balance out. Similar factors include funding, cost of living, EPPP pass rates (both are 100%), and internship match rates.

Below is my pro/con list, if there is anyone out there who has had to make a similar decision or has any insight into some of the points that I have made in my list (if I am mistaken, etc.), I honestly am in need of all and any advice I can get to help me make this decision! Thank you so much!!

Wayne State University, Clinical Psych PhD
PROS
1. Good research interest match (for what I think I want to study)
2. Clinical (i.e - "more respected") program
3. Will start with existing database – more publications
4. Driving distance to my fiance's university
5. Wider range of career options because of clinical?
CONS
1. Mentor is not a clinical psych prof, does not understand the demands of clinical students (as reported by his clinical students)
2. Mid-tier clinical program, not very well known
3. Coursework is unnecessarily rigorous (as reported by current students)
4. Have to take summer classes (not covered through funding)
5. In Detroit...
AMBIGUOUS
1. Will get to work with 2 mentors – One from Clinical and one other psych -> good/bad?

University of Florida, Counseling Psych PhD
PROS
1. Awesome match with mentor – she seems to really care about me (personally and professionally)
2. She is well known in Counseling psych circles
3. Program housed in the psych department (no clinical program in the same department)
4. Very well reputed Counseling Psych program
5. Students seem happier in program
7. My mentor said I could be her RA on her new book
8. Shorter optimal time to program completion (5 years)
CONS
1. Counseling psych is "less respected"
2. Research interest match is not as good (I am very interested in the research, just did not think about studying that before I applied)
3. My mentor mentioned that she is not a mentor that produces several publications each year
4. More limited career options because it is counseling?
AMBIGUOUS
1. Research program not yet begun - Will be part of the pioneering team of a relatively new line of research – good/bad?

I should also mention that I am not yet certain of my career goals but I know that I want to teach and do clinical work in the future.

Thank you so much!! SDN rocks 😍

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[busybusybusy]

Wow. In no way are counseling psych programs "less respected". They are different from clinical psych programs, maybe you should be focusing on which type of program fits you better and less about your assumed (and incorrect) degree title respect.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I wouldn't worry too much about being from a counseling program....as there are some great programs out there: UF, KU, one of the Idaho/Iowa/etc. ones...I forget. 😉 if you do health or neuro...I'd go to UF. I only knw a couple of Wayne State faculty, but they are solid. I know Millis is out there, though I don't know if he takes students.

 

[mee26]

Wow. In no way are counseling psych programs "less respected". They are different from clinical psych programs, maybe you should be focusing on which type of program fits you better and less about your assumed (and incorrect) degree title respect.

Please try to be respectful in your answers.

I do not mean to offend anyone, but the way I arrived at the clinical is more respected than counseling is: I talked to multiple professors and asked them their honest opinion about the reputation of clinical vs. counseling psych programs, and also my undergrad institution is currently hiring new psych faculty. Based on their answers, they all seemed to think that when counseling and clinical psych students compete for a job, clinical wins (unless it is at a univ counseling center) I did not state that I believed this, hence the quotation marks around "less/more respected".

Also, both the programs fit very well, as their training models are similar. I don't really care (or know if I should care) about the clinical vs. counseling aspect, that is why I have this dilemma. I am focusing on the program not the degree I will be graduating with.

 

[Tesseract18]

Please try to be respectful in your answers.

I do not mean to offend anyone, but the way I arrived at the clinical is more respected than counseling is: I talked to multiple professors and asked them their honest opinion about the reputation of clinical vs. counseling psych programs, and also my undergrad institution is currently hiring new psych faculty. Based on their answers, they all seemed to think that when counseling and clinical psych students compete for a job, clinical wins (unless it is at a univ counseling center) I did not state that I believed this, hence the quotation marks around "less/more respected".

Also, both the programs fit very well, as their training models are similar. I don't really care (or know if I should care) about the clinical vs. counseling aspect, that is why I have this dilemma. I am focusing on the program not the degree I will be graduating with.

Hi Mee26! I know we've discussed this a bit before but I definitely think looking at the program and the fit with a specific mentor is most important to breaking the tie. Clinical/counseling, eh, who cares about the title. The work that you do and the way you process and present your training and experience will be the most impressive thing you have to offer during job interviews, when push comes to shove. It seems like you're hesitant about the mentor(s?) at Wayne State whereas your more hesitant about the research area at UF since it's up-and-coming. It's definitely a personal choice, but I'd think strongly about the people you'll be tied to for several years. Research areas can change and adapt a good bit but if you've spoken with students who aren't happy with their mentorship, that's a red flag for me. I interviewed at one program that (had I received an acceptance) would have put me in a similar spot as you. The mentorship SEEMED fine but then I found out that two fourth-year students in the lab were up and quitting! Even though the program was great (and clinical) I felt uneasy about this, thought the program seemed less "happy" overall, and decided that I'd be better off personally and professionally in another (not to be named 🙄) program. Of course you have a personal connection to Wayne State too (fiance, oohlala!) which makes the decision even harder. Obviously, only you can decide which program will be the best fit for the training and lifestyle you're looking to lead for the next 5-7 years. Either way, I really really hope you end up very happy in one of these great programs and I know you'll have a killer grad career ahead of you! Good luck! 😀

 

[mee26]

Hi Mee26! I know we've discussed this a bit before but I definitely think looking at the program and the fit with a specific mentor is most important to breaking the tie. Clinical/counseling, eh, who cares about the title. The work that you do and the way you process and present your training and experience will be the most impressive thing you have to offer during job interviews, when push comes to shove. It seems like you're hesitant about the mentor(s?) at Wayne State whereas your more hesitant about the research area at UF since it's up-and-coming. It's definitely a personal choice, but I'd think strongly about the people you'll be tied to for several years. Research areas can change and adapt a good bit but if you've spoken with students who aren't happy with their mentorship, that's a red flag for me. I interviewed at one program that (had I received an acceptance) would have put me in a similar spot as you. The mentorship SEEMED fine but then I found out that two fourth-year students in the lab were up and quitting! Even though the program was great (and clinical) I felt uneasy about this, thought the program seemed less "happy" overall, and decided that I'd be better off personally and professionally in another (not to be named 🙄) program. Of course you have a personal connection to Wayne State too (fiance, oohlala!) which makes the decision even harder. Obviously, only you can decide which program will be the best fit for the training and lifestyle you're looking to lead for the next 5-7 years. Either way, I really really hope you end up very happy in one of these great programs and I know you'll have a killer grad career ahead of you! Good luck! 😀

Thanks Tesseract18! I have to say that my gut feeling tells me to pick Florida, because just how set can I be on my research interests when I have only had a couple of years working in that field, you know.... I am just trying not to blindly follow my instincts because I don't want to dwell on it and regret my decision later (though who am I kidding? That will happen no matter which way I go)

 

[Paulie5116]

Hey fellow SDNers,

I am in need of advice, and I greatly appreciate you reading this 🙂
So after a successful first application cycle, I will be finishing my undergrad soon, and starting a PhD program in the Fall.
I applied to both clinical and counseling programs, and now I am torn between 2 schools that I really like. I have an offer from Wayne State University's Clinical Psychology PhD and University of Florida's Counseling Psych PhD. The reason I am having such a hard time picking between the two is because they are both similar in certain ways, but then have unique pros and cons that also sort of balance out. Similar factors include funding, cost of living, EPPP pass rates (both are 100%), and internship match rates.

Below is my pro/con list, if there is anyone out there who has had to make a similar decision or has any insight into some of the points that I have made in my list (if I am mistaken, etc.), I honestly am in need of all and any advice I can get to help me make this decision! Thank you so much!!

Wayne State University, Clinical Psych PhD
PROS
1. Good research interest match (for what I think I want to study)
2. Clinical (i.e - "more respected") program
3. Will start with existing database – more publications
4. Driving distance to my fiance's university
5. Wider range of career options because of clinical?
CONS
1. Mentor is a social psych prof, does not understand the demands of clinical students (as reported by his clinical students)
2. Mid-tier clinical program, not very well known
3. Coursework is unnecessarily rigorous (as reported by current students)
4. Have to take summer classes (not covered through funding)
5. In Detroit...
AMBIGUOUS
1. Will get to work with 2 mentors – One from Clinical and one social -> good/bad?

University of Florida, Counseling Psych PhD
PROS
1. Awesome match with mentor – she seems to really care about me (personally and professionally)
2. She is well known in Counseling psych circles
3. Program housed in the psych department (no clinical program in the same department)
4. Very well reputed Counseling Psych program
5. Students seem happier in program
7. My mentor said I could be her RA on her new book
8. Shorter optimal time to program completion (5 years)
CONS
1. Counseling psych is "less respected"
2. Research interest match is not as good (I am very interested in the research, just did not think about studying that before I applied)
3. My mentor mentioned that she is not a mentor that produces several publications each year
4. More limited career options because it is counseling?
AMBIGUOUS
1. Research program not yet begun - Will be part of the pioneering team of a relatively new line of research – good/bad?

I should also mention that I am not yet certain of my career goals but I know that I want to teach and do clinical work in the future.

Thank you so much!! SDN rocks 😍

Congrats on your acceptances! Although I cannot speak to the UF program, my undergraduate mentor (who is absolutely fantastic) attended Wayne State for her PhD in clinical and she always has the best things to say about the program and training. She graduated less than 10 years ago, meaning her experience with the program would likely be more similar to what you would experience as opposed to someone who's 15 or 20 years out. Also, during one of my interviews this year, the program I was interviewing at knew Wayne State well and seemed to think highly of their program (even though none of their faculty had attended).

Also, on some of your pros/cons for Wayne State, the research match is super important. And the fact that it seems that you will have more opportunities for research at Wayne will leave your future career options more open (in terms of academia/research positions) whereas both programs will train you for clinical work. Lastly, as a Michigan native, Detroit definitely has it some places that you shouldn't go (day or, especially, night) but, that being said, Detroit also has an amazing underground scene, particularly with music and clubs (if that's what you're into), and a great downtown area.

Obviously I am partial to Wayne State, as I have no knowledge of UF, but just thought I would share my thoughts and experiences. Feel free to pm me if you would like.

 

[3rdWave]

I go to Wayne State, and I can happily say that I did not need to take out any loans to cover my tuition or expenses during my 7 (arrgh) years of graduate study. I had RA jobs in Anthro, Psych, and the Med School, TA jobs, scholarships, and some paying clinical research work in the clinic. This is a major pro of this program. They are also good at funding travel to conferences.

The DCT is also a great guy who genuinely cares about the students, as do most of the faculty.

PM me if you would like more details.

 

[paramour]

Hi Mee26! I know we've discussed this a bit before but I definitely think looking at the program and the fit with a specific mentor is most important to breaking the tie. Clinical/counseling, eh, who cares about the title. The work that you do and the way you process and present your training and experience will be the most impressive thing you have to offer during job interviews, when push comes to shove. It seems like you're hesitant about the mentor(s?) at Wayne State whereas your more hesitant about the research area at UF since it's up-and-coming. It's definitely a personal choice, but I'd think strongly about the people you'll be tied to for several years. Research areas can change and adapt a good bit but if you've spoken with students who aren't happy with their mentorship, that's a red flag for me. I interviewed at one program that (had I received an acceptance) would have put me in a similar spot as you. The mentorship SEEMED fine but then I found out that two fourth-year students in the lab were up and quitting! Even though the program was great (and clinical) I felt uneasy about this, thought the program seemed less "happy" overall, and decided that I'd be better off personally and professionally in another (not to be named 🙄) program. Of course you have a personal connection to Wayne State too (fiance, oohlala!) which makes the decision even harder. Obviously, only you can decide which program will be the best fit for the training and lifestyle you're looking to lead for the next 5-7 years. Either way, I really really hope you end up very happy in one of these great programs and I know you'll have a killer grad career ahead of you! Good luck! 😀

I agree with this. 👍

I also strongly agree with the bit in bold print. My advisor had NO students around on interview day. Strange, but it was explained away that they were advanced students busy working on other things or who had relocated out of the area for other obligations while finishing up the final requirements of the degree. I walked by an empty lab several times throughout the day and then finally sat outside it for awhile, hoping that at least one student would walk by. The student was great, but the individual did not have a particularly glowing recommendation for the advisor. It was as if the student was attempting to "find something" (anything) positive to say about the advisor without coming across disrespectful of the advisor--and without running me off. The student finally relied upon taking some negative characteristics and reframing them as positives.

Now that I am in this program, I recognize that these were all some major red flags I should not have ignored at the time (in combination with some other issues during that day). No problem with reframing things, but these negative characteristics were most definitely in no way positive when the negatives were to such an extreme to begin. Where were the students? This advisor had few. Not because they were all advanced or working somewhere else, but because they had jumped ship or the program entirely. The few students left at the time were advanced, and then there were multiple cohorts without a student from this lab. I think that there was approximately 4 to 5 years gap between me and the next student. The advisor has tried to accept at least two students a number of years to try to "regain" students (not that it always works). Both myself and the other student accepted the same year ended up fleeing the lab as well, and we've not been the last. 👎

I don't know how strong of a reaction you had regarding the program with the potential lack of supportive mentoring, but if you received any red flags, I wouldn't outright dismiss them because you love the research, other aspects of the program, the location, etc. I did and I can say some several years later that I wish I had listened to my initial reaction.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Back in the day, I was deciding between two (different) schools in MI and FL. I chose the school in MI. Just know that if you do the same, during the winter you will be cursing your choice. Although, i do suspect that summer in FL might be as unpleasant as winter in MI.

Silliness aside, I echo what others have said. Mentor fit is key. Not just research fit, but personality fit. My prof at the school I chose was a great research match, but as it turned out, also raging borderline. I was not able to endure working with her past my MA and so I never got to do the research I went there to do!


Dr. E

 

[3rdWave]

Also FYI- you are never stuck with a mentor you do not want to work with at WSU. Many students' interests change, or they decide they are not a good fit with a lab and switch to another one. This is fine, as long a proper communication methods are used. Losing students is also a natural consequence for professors who do not do a good job of mentoring their students, etc.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Also FYI- you are never stuck with a mentor you do not want to work with at WSU. Many students' interests change, or they decide they are not a good fit with a lab and switch to another one. This is fine, as long a proper communication methods are used. Losing students is also a natural consequence for professors who do not do a good job of mentoring their students, etc.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd view that as a positive or a negative. I've heard good things about WSU, don't get me wrong. But if there's a relatively streamlined process for changing mentors, it could indicate that it's happened enough for such a process to be necessary.

Having the option is a bonus, but I don't necessarily feel it's healthy if that option is regularly having to be pursued by students. Not saying that's the case with WSU, mind you, just stating a general personal opinion.

 

[3rdWave]

Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd view that as a positive or a negative. I've heard good things about WSU, don't get me wrong. But if there's a relatively streamlined process for changing mentors, it could indicate that it's happened enough for such a process to be necessary.

Having the option is a bonus, but I don't necessarily feel it's healthy if that option is regularly having to be pursued by students. Not saying that's the case with WSU, mind you, just stating a general personal opinion.

I can appreciate your points.

I would say that most labs at WSU are quite stable (mine certainly was). However, there are a couple profs that have some trouble keeping students... and some students whose interests change, or they decide that they want to be involved in 2 different labs.

The point I wanted to make is that profs don't "own" students. It is up to students to decide which lab they want to be in, and that can change over time. This is in stark contrast to my friend's experience at another MI university, where she is miserable in her lab, but unable to leave.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I can appreciate your points.

I would say that most labs at WSU are quite stable (mine certainly was). However, there are a couple profs that have some trouble keeping students... and some students whose interests change, or they decide that they want to be involved in 2 different labs.

The point I wanted to make is that profs don't "own" students. It is up to students to decide which lab they want to be in, and that can change over time. This is in stark contrast to my friend's experience at another MI university, where she is miserable in her lab, but unable to leave.

Understood. I prefer the traditional mentorship model to one that's more "in flux," although our program also requires that we work at least one year outside of our mentor's lab. But that's just a personal preference.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The point I wanted to make is that profs don't "own" students. It is up to students to decide which lab they want to be in, and that can change over time. This is in stark contrast to my friend's experience at another MI university, where she is miserable in her lab, but unable to leave.

This is definitely worth noting because some mentorship setups can be quite problematic. If you have a goal of securing a TT position...you may be academically hitched to your mentor even after grad school, as you may still have active manuscripts and follow-up analysis with that person. Some mentor/mentee relationships are fine...but some are not.

ps. Hopefully she isn't fond of blue & maize...as I've heard pretty good things about their program, though their labs can sometimes be very active/time consuming.