***Oversupply of Pharmacists***

[Praziquantel86]

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You would think that they aren't that hard to do but 40% of my Organic 1 class failed, same in Organic 2, at a community college, and a good majority of those that failed did plan on going to pharmacy school (with the other portion aiming for medical school...).

I don't want to start a community college/4-year college debate, but I don't think a 40% failure rate in a CC necessarily makes a class hard. Pretty much anyone can enroll in a CC, and while some may be doing it for financial or other personal reasons and could have easily gone to a 4-year school, many others are going there simply because it was their only option due to poor grades. If you don't have the academic aptitude to take a class, then you likely will fail it.

I'll agree with people that the prerequisite courses for pharmacy schools do serve to limit the applicant pool somewhat, but I still don't think that the application process limits the pool enough. The PCAT is not a hard test; and the prereqs, while difficult, are still for the most part, are lower-level undergraduate classes. Mandating a bachelors degree would force students to take upper-division classes that would serve to weed out people who academically shouldn't be in pharmacy school as well as those who are applying because it looks to be quick money.

I guarantee you that many students would choose a different career path if they were faced with a mandatory four year degree before matriculating into pharmacy school. A few schools have already done this, either de facto or de jure, and the quality of the applicant pool has greatly increased while the total number of applicants has decreased. Mandating a bachelors degree will do nothing other than ultimately improve the profession and prevent our degrees from becoming useless pieces of paper.

 

[Praziquantel86]

well, learn all you can about the mail order pharmacy. I may ask you to write a chapter in the pharmacy admin text book I'm writing.

You seriously writing a textbook? Send the drafts to UB...our hospital admin classes are awful.

 

[Its Z]

You seriously writing a textbook? Send the drafts to UB...our hospital admin classes are awful.

Yes, I plan to write a text book.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Yes, I plan to write a text book.

Will there be a lawnmower on the cover?

 

[Silvermist]

I don't want to start a community college/4-year college debate, but I don't think a 40% failure rate in a CC necessarily makes a class hard. Pretty much anyone can enroll in a CC, and while some may be doing it for financial or other personal reasons and could have easily gone to a 4-year school, many others are going there simply because it was their only option due to poor grades. If you don't have the academic aptitude to take a class, then you likely will fail it.

I'll agree with people that the prerequisite courses for pharmacy schools do serve to limit the applicant pool somewhat, but I still don't think that the application process limits the pool enough. The PCAT is not a hard test; and the prereqs, while difficult, are still for the most part, are lower-level undergraduate classes. Mandating a bachelors degree would force students to take upper-division classes that would serve to weed out people who academically shouldn't be in pharmacy school as well as those who are applying because it looks to be quick money.

I guarantee you that many students would choose a different career path if they were faced with a mandatory four year degree before matriculating into pharmacy school. A few schools have already done this, either de facto or de jure, and the quality of the applicant pool has greatly increased while the total number of applicants has decreased. Mandating a bachelors degree will do nothing other than ultimately improve the profession and prevent our degrees from becoming useless pieces of paper.

How prevalent is this really, though? There aren't many 0-6 schools, and at least in my neck of the woods, schools that don't technically require a bachelor's still have an overwhelming number of students who have come in with one (on the order of 80+%).

I have a bachelor's and I applied to UMD as an early decision student. I have to tell you, I was VERY nervous during my interview. Not because of the staff at the school - but because of the other interviewees. In my group alone, there was a published physicist, a PhD grad in biology, a research chemist ... and then there was me. I have a degree, high GPA and high PCAT and I felt like most unqualified person in the room! Maybe it varies by school or by region, but I definitely don't get the sense in my region that unprofessional, drunken 2.8 students with low PCAT scores are close to the norm.

 

[PharmGrrlJax]

I don't want to start a community college/4-year college debate, but I don't think a 40% failure rate in a CC necessarily makes a class hard. Pretty much anyone can enroll in a CC, and while some may be doing it for financial or other personal reasons and could have easily gone to a 4-year school, many others are going there simply because it was their only option due to poor grades. If you don't have the academic aptitude to take a class, then you likely will fail it.

I'll agree with people that the prerequisite courses for pharmacy schools do serve to limit the applicant pool somewhat, but I still don't think that the application process limits the pool enough. The PCAT is not a hard test; and the prereqs, while difficult, are still for the most part, are lower-level undergraduate classes. Mandating a bachelors degree would force students to take upper-division classes that would serve to weed out people who academically shouldn't be in pharmacy school as well as those who are applying because it looks to be quick money.

I guarantee you that many students would choose a different career path if they were faced with a mandatory four year degree before matriculating into pharmacy school. A few schools have already done this, either de facto or de jure, and the quality of the applicant pool has greatly increased while the total number of applicants has decreased. Mandating a bachelors degree will do nothing other than ultimately improve the profession and prevent our degrees from becoming useless pieces of paper.

I wasn't starting a CC vs. University debate, I was responding to the fact that someone stated that the pre-reqs are lower level science courses that can be passed quite easily at a community college. These classes aren't easy for everyone.

As for the bachelor's degree, I am in full agreement on that. My husband is a pharmacist, and this is something we have discusses at length. The only reason I didn't pursue a bachelor's myself was not because of lack of ability, because I started college at University of Wisconsin and did fairly ok there for a young mother working full time, when I moved back home with the intent of going to pharmacy school, I discovered my school didn't need or even prefer a Bachelor's, and that they didn't weight GPA from a University any higher than a CC, so I decided to stay at the CC to do pre-reqs for about $70 less per credit hour, especially since I paid it out of pocket.

I also think that adding some upper level pre-reqs to the mix would be a very positive step, it would further narrow the applicant pool if all schools required MicroBio, BioChem, Genetics etc... and that would give more time to more advance pharmacy concepts once we get in.

 

[rxforlife2004]

we should make this post "sticky" so that the young new pre-pharms who excitedly think about 100K+ yearly salary is a walking cake can see what is actually happening right now...and in future.

 

[Nupe954]

oh boy that will make a big chapter.

Yep, its really not much to it. Its pretty much the same thing for our mail order system as well. All pharmacists do is PV all day long....

 

[Nupe954]

we should make this post "sticky" so that the young new pre-pharms who excitedly think about 100K+ yearly salary is a walking cake can see what is actually happening right now...and in future.

Agreed, dont do it for the money honey 🙁

In other news, I ran into a buddy of mine and she is going back to school to be a MD...do you guys think medicine will lower it standards if shortages continue to grow(especially for PCP's)?

 

[Praziquantel86]

How prevalent is this really, though? There aren't many 0-6 schools, and at least in my neck of the woods, schools that don't technically require a bachelor's still have an overwhelming number of students who have come in with one (on the order of 80+%).

I have a bachelor's and I applied to UMD as an early decision student. I have to tell you, I was VERY nervous during my interview. Not because of the staff at the school - but because of the other interviewees. In my group alone, there was a published physicist, a PhD grad in biology, a research chemist ... and then there was me. I have a degree, high GPA and high PCAT and I felt like most unqualified person in the room! Maybe it varies by school or by region, but I definitely don't get the sense in my region that unprofessional, drunken 2.8 students with low PCAT scores are close to the norm.

Where are you getting your numbers from? The rate of matriculants with a bachelor's degree is nowhere near 80%. Maybe a few schools are near there (USC, UCSF, OSU, etc.), but not the vast majority. 0-6 schools are another story altogether, but many of the 2+4 schools accept students without a bachelor's degree (they're called 2+4 for a reason).

I wasn't starting a CC vs. University debate, I was responding to the fact that someone stated that the pre-reqs are lower level science courses that can be passed quite easily at a community college. These classes aren't easy for everyone.

As for the bachelor's degree, I am in full agreement on that. My husband is a pharmacist, and this is something we have discusses at length. The only reason I didn't pursue a bachelor's myself was not because of lack of ability, because I started college at University of Wisconsin and did fairly ok there for a young mother working full time, when I moved back home with the intent of going to pharmacy school, I discovered my school didn't need or even prefer a Bachelor's, and that they didn't weight GPA from a University any higher than a CC, so I decided to stay at the CC to do pre-reqs for about $70 less per credit hour, especially since I paid it out of pocket.

I also think that adding some upper level pre-reqs to the mix would be a very positive step, it would further narrow the applicant pool if all schools required MicroBio, BioChem, Genetics etc... and that would give more time to more advance pharmacy concepts once we get in.

I agree that the classes might not be easy for everyone, but I don't think that simply being a member of the majority that can pass them should be a qualifying standard for pharmacy school.

You benefited from schools not requiring a bachelor's degree (as did I), as well as the transferibility of credits from a community college (I did not, but several in my class did). However, I don't think this is good for pharmacy if it continues. Maybe it's an example of having your cake and eating it too, but this should be done away with.

Many schools already do require those classes as prereqs, but they still take intro-level Microbio, Biochem, etc. Med school has similar prerequisites, but they must be done in the context of a baccalaureate degree program. It's the time constraints and added workload that make the classes difficult, not the classes themselves. Pharmacy schools, by and large, have not caught onto this.

 

[rxforlife2004]

Agreed, dont do it for the money honey 🙁

In other news, I ran into a buddy of mine and she is going back to school to be a MD...do you guys think medicine will lower it standards if shortages continue to grow(especially for PCP's)?

Nope...in order to practice full medicine, you always need to go med school, pass USMLE Step I, 2,3 and finish ur residency. Period. The only way around is becoming a PA/NP. However, in a few years, i am sure that PA and NP will be extremely saturated, too. A lot of kids in college now wanna go for PA schools....and new schools are opening too (slower rate comparing to pharmacy)....but it's gonna be saturated....

 

[Silvermist]

Where are you getting your numbers from? The rate of matriculants with a bachelor's degree is nowhere near 80%. Maybe a few schools are near there (USC, UCSF, OSU, etc.), but not the vast majority. 0-6 schools are another story altogether, but many of the 2+4 schools accept students without a bachelor's degree (they're called 2+4 for a reason).

It's not a scientific poll, just observation on local schools here. I'm just commenting on what my local mid-Atlantic pharmacy school deans have said when they came to my college for visits. Nearly all of them said that while they accept non-bachelor's-degree-holding students, it is a small number and getting smaller, and that while they don't require it, that nearly everyone will have a degree.

 

[Silvermist]

Agreed, dont do it for the money honey 🙁

In other news, I ran into a buddy of mine and she is going back to school to be a MD...do you guys think medicine will lower it standards if shortages continue to grow(especially for PCP's)?

I believe that ship has sailed. The health care bill has tens of millions of dollars worth of sweeteners for NPs to practice primary care - it funds training them as PCPs and it funds NP-run clinics. Add that to the legislation pending in 27+ states to allow NPs to prescribe CIIs without an MD, and I think we can see what's happening in primary care pretty clearly.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Agreed, dont do it for the money honey 🙁

In other news, I ran into a buddy of mine and she is going back to school to be a MD...do you guys think medicine will lower it standards if shortages continue to grow(especially for PCP's)?

Absolutely not. as Rx4L said, you have to be top-notch to actually get licensed as a physician.

On top of those requirments, residency slots in the US are frozen. Residency programs receive funding from Medicare, and the number of slots that can legally be funded by the government has been static since the late '90s (maybe early '00s). Without a concomitant increase in residency spots, there's no point in increasing medical school enrollment since most of these students would not be able to complete their training (this is basically the reason why medical schools have not proliferated like pharmacy schools have, even when faced with a shortage of physicians).

 

[Passion4Sci]

Lower standards for an MD?

Well, the closest it'll get to that are more schools like Ross opening up off-shore. People pay a ton of money ($300k+) to attend schools in the Caribbean, only to possibly score poorly on the USMLE steps, not to mention the fight for residency. Fellowship is essentially out of the question, as well, for them.

Sadly, like I said before, as long as there are people willing to pay (Or, rather, willing to borrow from the gov't), there will be schools opening up.

I'm a big proponent of NAPLEX+CPJE/MPJE type of "step" system as well to increase the difficulty in becoming a licensed pharmacist. 90%+ average pass rate for 1st time test takers on NAPLEX, even from "no name" schools, is unacceptable! If there's a class of people, say, 75, and ~68 of them receive As (90%), something is wrong... the test/s is/are too easy or the instructor too lenient.

Bottom line is that going into any field for the money is just a bad long-term plan.

 

[Passion4Sci]

I was going through all of the school pages trying to parse out who discloses how many students they accept who have had their Bachelor's degree conferred upon them, and while looking at Butler, I saw this:

100% job placement for our pharmacy graduates

That is really interesting...

 

[rxforlife2004]

I was going through all of the school pages trying to parse out who discloses how many students they accept who have had their Bachelor's degree conferred upon them, and while looking at Butler, I saw this:




That is really interesting...

hm...who will be able to verify this?

 

[Passion4Sci]

hm...who will be able to verify this?

I s'pose I could e-mail a Butler representative and verify it. I've found the PharmCAS School Page to be accurate in the past.

I am tempted to e-mail them just to see how it works.

 

[carbox]

.

 

[Silvermist]

At a recent meeting in Savannah I heard UGA, Auburn, and Ten. reps all claiming 100% job placement from their programs... It's def. not unrealistic. I can verify UTen, the others I'm just going on what I head. However this is the south where supply hasn't become horrible yet (besides FL) when compared to other regions of the country

According to this article, St. Louis CoP had 90% placement rate this year. http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bu...0BF1D149152188B7862577230013E488?OpenDocument

 

[carbox]

According to this article, St. Louis CoP had 90% placement rate this year. http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bu...0BF1D149152188B7862577230013E488?OpenDocument

90% in this economy! Not bad at all. I can't think of many other jobs with 90% (and many other schools at 100%) employment making 100k+ out of school... Especially being in a larger city....I'll take my job in the middle of no where. Feel bad for students graduating 4 years from now though. there won't be anything left

 

[rxforlife2004]

I , personally, do not put all my trust in these numbers. They are just there to attract prospect students into the field. I'm more concerned of what is actually happening out there...

The simple way to test the job market is to pretend you yourself as a new grad pharmAcist and calls in looking for a job. If you hear this, "Let me give u the district manager /director phone #", and you try to call that # and consistently get the voicemail...after you leave your #, contact information and interest, and still hear nothing from him/her....Then you know it's pretty bad for real.

 

[BMBiology]

I , personally, do not put all my trust in these numbers.

In all fairness, I don't think anyone actually believe you that ~50% of USC grads currently don't have a job offer. Your anecdotal evidence is certainly not very convincing.

The job market for pharmacists has changed but it certainly has not changed as much as you are claiming.

 

[desklamp]

I have a degree, high GPA and high PCAT and I felt like most unqualified person in the room! Maybe it varies by school or by region, but I definitely don't get the sense in my region that unprofessional, drunken 2.8 students with low PCAT scores are close to the norm.

To be fair though you were interviewing at UMD which is a high ranked pharmacy program and has a great medical school (at least from what i hear. my friend who went there for med school ended up with a hopkins residency). Let's hear some stories of interviews at some unranked, private pharmacy schools that popped up not too long ago :x.

 

[rxforlife2004]

In all fairness, I don't think anyone actually believe you that ~50% of USC grads currently don't have a job offer. Your anecdotal evidence is certainly not very convincing.

The job market for pharmacists has changed but it certainly has not changed as much as you are claiming.

50% is a bit too much...but that's what i heard from a true professor there (won't tell you who...). However, if we don't do anything, it's getting there....

 

[WhiteSnows]

People, If you don't think you can do anything to change the profession beside complaining, it is better not to talk about this. Because if you only talk without action, you are wasting your energy. Moreover, this topic has been posted many different times in forum, I find it become one of the worthless threats because it does not contribute any positive thing to change the profession.

There are a few things that you can't do. One of them is stopping school from opening. As long as there are students apply, schools will keep popping.

You can scare a few pre-pharm students about the things this profession is facing at this moment, but in my opinion, people are still going to pharmacy.

In stead of complaining, do well in your class, set yourself apart, educate your friends about what pharmacists do in the past, now, and in the future, and wait for opportunities. That is all we can do in our power as pharmacy students.

 

[desklamp]

People, If you don't think you can do anything to change the profession beside complaining, it is better not to talk about this. Because if you only talk without action, you are wasting your energy. Moreover, this topic has been posted many different times in forum, I find it become one of the worthless threats because it does not contribute any positive thing to change the profession.

There are a few things that you can't do. One of them is stopping school from opening. As long as there are students apply, schools will keep popping.

You can scare a few pre-pharm students about the things this profession is facing at this moment, but in my opinion, people are still going to pharmacy.

In stead of complaining, do well in your class, set yourself apart, educate your friends about what pharmacists do in the past, now, and in the future, and wait for opportunities. That is all we can do in our power as pharmacy students.

I dunno, it does seem pretty futile, but since the pharmacy students of today might be running this thing in the future, maybe a little healthy debate and dispersion of information can't hurt. That's what I love about forums. You can learn a bunch of stuff you might otherwise not have heard about.

 

[rxforlife2004]

People, If you don't think you can do anything to change the profession beside complaining, it is better not to talk about this. Because if you only talk without action, you are wasting your energy. Moreover, this topic has been posted many different times in forum, I find it become one of the worthless threats because it does not contribute any positive thing to change the profession.

There are a few things that you can't do. One of them is stopping school from opening. As long as there are students apply, schools will keep popping.

You can scare a few pre-pharm students about the things this profession is facing at this moment, but in my opinion, people are still going to pharmacy.

In stead of complaining, do well in your class, set yourself apart, educate your friends about what pharmacists do in the past, now, and in the future, and wait for opportunities. That is all we can do in our power as pharmacy students.

You do have good points here. However, believe me, there will be people still reading this forum and some of them are the ones changing/leading the pharmacy profession. This forum is more powerful than you think. Back in 2005, the scam of Hawaii college of pharmacy was uncovered from this forum and lots of actions/complaints from people to ACPE, thus forcing the school to close down. Do your research on this.

I have no interest on scaring pre-pharm students. I am just telling out the truth. In order to maintain the pharmacy as a good career, you have to protect it and this is where it should start.
Saturation is everywhere. Grads are forced/motivated to apply for residency to avoid being unemployed. And new schools keep popping up. Media keeps BS**ing about the shortage. Now what's next?

 

[WhiteSnows]

I dunno, it does seem pretty futile, but since the pharmacy students of today might be running this thing in the future, maybe a little healthy debate and dispersion of information can't hurt. That's what I love about forums. You can learn a bunch of stuff you might otherwise not have heard about.

If you are in this forum long enough, you could find there are many posts about this same old news. It is not even considered healthy debate because there is no solution that they are trying to bring to the table. Their reason is like this: stop opening schools, let do something, let change something, let write a letter to blah blah blah. Can we stop them opening new schools? Hell no. Can you stop people going to apply to pharmacy school? Yes, but there is more to convince before you can make any progress. Can you write a letter to Board of Pharmacy and request them to change? Yes you can, but you need to do it first. Don't come in here and say " Let's we do it" then you forget about it.


Am I worried about my future? Yes I am so worried. Can I do anything to help the situation? Yes I can, involve, get connections, set myself apart, get a good GPA, learn learn learn. Should I complain about pharmacy profession? No, because I am wasting my energy, and it may effect my mood negatively, giving me more anxiety, affect my relationship with friends and family.


If you are still worried about this profession, there are 2 options:

1) If you are a pre-pharmacy student, you can pursue another career now. It is not too late.

2) If you are already a pharmacy student, explore about other roles a pharmacist can do, keep yourself motivated to study, keep a good GPA, prepare yourself for changes, and new opportunities.

 

[OChemProf]

50% is a bit too much...but that's what i heard from a true professor there (won't tell you who...). However, if we don't do anything, it's getting there....

I have followed several of these forum discussions regarding employment prospects for pharmacy, but this is the first time I have decided to reply.

At an Open House at UF, the dean suggested we look at the Pharmacy Manpower website which tracks supply and demand for pharmacists. I have also followed job postings on both CareerBuilder.com and monster.com.

The Pharmacy Manpower website shows supply and demand by state and California shows a relatively moderate demand for pharmacists; 28 states show a demand, 21 are evenly balanced and only 2 show a surplus (iowa and hawaii?). In addition, Monster and Careerbuilder almost always show hundreds of pharmacy jobs available (if you remove the crap postings for schools for pharmacy techs, there are still many jobs available).

From my perspective, this is not even close to competitive. I have obtained a tenure track faculty position which is extremely competitive. Most of my friends (and I) sent out close to 50 applications and received at the most 3 interviews and were offered one job. Even if that job was in the middle of Arkansas, that's where you went because you weren't sure if you would be that "lucky" again.

I personally don't think the sky is falling and once the economy recovers and the older generation starts to retire, everything will return to normal. And if it doesn't, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of competition....it will make you appreciate what you get when you get it.

 

[rxforlife2004]

I have followed several of these forum discussions regarding employment prospects for pharmacy, but this is the first time I have decided to reply.

At an Open House at UF, the dean suggested we look at the Pharmacy Manpower website which tracks supply and demand for pharmacists. I have also followed job postings on both CareerBuilder.com and monster.com.

The Pharmacy Manpower website shows supply and demand by state and California shows a relatively moderate demand for pharmacists; 28 states show a demand, 21 are evenly balanced and only 2 show a surplus (iowa and hawaii?). In addition, Monster and Careerbuilder almost always show hundreds of pharmacy jobs available (if you remove the crap postings for schools for pharmacy techs, there are still many jobs available).

From my perspective, this is not even close to competitive. I have obtained a tenure track faculty position which is extremely competitive. Most of my friends (and I) sent out close to 50 applications and received at the most 3 interviews and were offered one job. Even if that job was in the middle of Arkansas, that's where you went because you weren't sure if you would be that "lucky" again.

I personally don't think the sky is falling and once the economy recovers and the older generation starts to retire, everything will return to normal. And if it doesn't, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of competition....it will make you appreciate what you get when you get it.

I really don't believe in Pharmacy power nor BLS Statistics...or whatever...but i believe in what i have seen...the truth.

 

[SovietPistol]

I really don't believe in Pharmacy power nor BLS Statistics...or whatever...but i believe in what i have seen...the truth.

I believe in Pharmacy power! Shhhooooooo!

 

[homeslice]

I really don't believe in Pharmacy power nor BLS Statistics...or whatever...but i believe in what i have seen...the truth.

And the truth is that pharmacy is not anywhere near the 50 applications:3 interviews:1 job ratio (as the poster suggested for his career) unless you're very, very inflexible.

 

[bluesickle]

From my perspective, this is not even close to competitive. I have obtained a tenure track faculty position which is extremely competitive. Most of my friends (and I) sent out close to 50 applications and received at the most 3 interviews and were offered one job. Even if that job was in the middle of Arkansas, that's where you went because you weren't sure if you would be that "lucky" again.

I personally don't think the sky is falling and once the economy recovers and the older generation starts to retire, everything will return to normal. And if it doesn't, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of competition....it will make you appreciate what you get when you get it.

There's a huge difference between what you're talking about and what people in here are complaining about.

Students graduating with their PharmD's will be in a mound of debt whereas those who're graduating with their Ph.D's are coming out with virtually no debt whatsoever. The tenure track faculty positions have always been and always will be competitive. At every University, you'll find many Ph.D's who've graduated from top programs who're making crumbs for the amount of education that they've had. They're just fortunate enough to be able to research and pursue their passion in their field of expertise. If Ph.D's came out with 200k+ in debt, I highly doubt many people would even attempt to become a professor with the competition the way it is and I highly doubt they'd be content making peanuts in the name of research.

You're right in that maybe the sky isn't falling, yet, but it certainly is an issue of concern.

 

[SHC1984]

People can always relocate to Alaska, Montana, South/North Dakota, Wyoming etc. I know I won't do it but for the people that are truely worried they can always find a job in those locations. LOL...

 

[OChemProf]

I really don't believe in Pharmacy power nor BLS Statistics...or whatever...but i believe in what i have seen...the truth.

I debated whether to even respond to this post......

Do you consider yourself a scientist (i doubt you do)? If so, why would you discount two different organizations whose sole function is to collect statistics on the job prospects in different fields. Oh, it must be because the ONE school you visited gave you anecdotal evidence that the job market is not good. You heard this secondhand as well......

The truth is.......YOU should get out of pharmacy as soon as possible.

The truth is.......YOUR attitude will hurt you when you do look for a job.

Of course, that's just the truth as I see it......

 

[OChemProf]

And the truth is that pharmacy is not anywhere near the 50 applications:3 interviews:1 job ratio (as the poster suggested for his career) unless you're very, very inflexible.

Thank you homeslice for understanding the point of my post......

 

[OChemProf]

There's a huge difference between what you're talking about and what people in here are complaining about.

Students graduating with their PharmD's will be in a mound of debt whereas those who're graduating with their Ph.D's are coming out with virtually no debt whatsoever. The tenure track faculty positions have always been and always will be competitive. At every University, you'll find many Ph.D's who've graduated from top programs who're making crumbs for the amount of education that they've had. They're just fortunate enough to be able to research and pursue their passion in their field of expertise. If Ph.D's came out with 200k+ in debt, I highly doubt many people would even attempt to become a professor with the competition the way it is and I highly doubt they'd be content making peanuts in the name of research.

You're right in that maybe the sky isn't falling, yet, but it certainly is an issue of concern.

I graduated with over 50K in student loan debt....which is not bad considering that that covered 10 years of education (4 undergrad, 6 grad).....but, there were tenure track positions that were paying 35K / year (ridiculous in my opinion). There are many students who take on large sums of money to pursue their passions in a doctoral program, but since they are pursuing their passion they don't really care as much about the debt.....

I do understand that pharmacy students are in a slightly different situation....but, this is a situation that was brought upon by their OWN decisions. If the student just assumed they would be handed their job on a silver platter and that the student loan debt would suddenly vanish, then that's just unrealistic.......

If you had read the rest of my post, you would understand that I believe competition is good for any field....it might remove the riff raff who are only interested in the easy life without the hard work.....

 

[rxforlife2004]

I debated whether to even respond to this post......

Do you consider yourself a scientist (i doubt you do)? If so, why would you discount two different organizations whose sole function is to collect statistics on the job prospects in different fields. Oh, it must be because the ONE school you visited gave you anecdotal evidence that the job market is not good. You heard this secondhand as well......

The truth is.......YOU should get out of pharmacy as soon as possible.

The truth is.......YOUR attitude will hurt you when you do look for a job.

Of course, that's just the truth as I see it......

Lol...wtf u're talking about? I've been a pharmacist for years already and still working now. I don't need to compete for a job. Even when it comes to competition, i have more to bring on the table with my work experience...

The whole point of this thread is to inform pre-pharm students what is going on out there.

 

[rxforlife2004]

If you had read the rest of my post, you would understand that I believe competition is good for any field....it might remove the riff raff who are only interested in the easy life without the hard work.....

competition is good for any field? Then why don't u go back and compete for a teaching job?
COmpetition is good...but too much competiton becomes ugly.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I think the economy play a large role in people with degree not being able to find a job now. It is true for pharmacists as well and it is also true for nurses. I am a nurse living in South FL; When I got my nursing degree (AS degree) 5 years ago and pass the board, there many employers that were offering me sign on bonus so I can work for them (day shift). However, now in South FL, if you dont have a bachelor degree in nursing, you will have a hard time to find a job, and if you find one, it will be night shift (7pm-7am). Remember that South FL is the retirement capital of the US ie a lot of elderly with chronic illnesses. I think the economy play a big role in that healthcare workers having a hard time to fin a job. Every major companies are cutting hours. Economy 101 guys...

 

[PonderingChoice]

If you had read the rest of my post, you would understand that I believe competition is good for any field....it might remove the riff raff who are only interested in the easy life without the hard work.....

I disagree - the fact that salaries were high and competition was low means that higher quality applicants are attracted. People with their Master's, even their PhD's, are applying to pharmacy programs. Many older people are also applying to pharmacy school. If the salary was 80k/year and job positions highly competitive - do you think they'd be doing that? Some of it's the economy, but the salary/low competitiveness is also contributing.

Low salaries/high competition are going to bring in the riff raff, not the reverse.

I mean, I don't care if Pharmacist A has been passionate about pharmacy all his life if he has a 3.0 GPA and a low (compared to now) PCAT score. I'd much rather have Pharmacist B, with a 3.7 GPA, who could've pursued a doctoral program, but thinks pharmacy is cool too.

Actually, thinking about it some more, I might be wrong - high salaries and low competition are going to mean more degree mills opening. Still, I maintain that high salaries/low competition obviously add to the prestige of the profession, and prestige might mean an increase in responsibilities. I'll admit I might be wrong, and I can think of a few counter-arguments, but I'll stop while I'm ahead.

 

[Its Z]

If you had read the rest of my post, you would understand that I believe competition is good for any field....it might remove the riff raff who are only interested in the easy life without the hard work.....

Wrong.

It hasn't done that for JD.

If competition is good, then why opt for a tenured position? Your position should be up for grabs every year.

 

[PonderingChoice]

Wrong.

It hasn't done that for JD.

Truth.

 

[pallywally]

This is like that oversupply of teaching candidates in places like Philly and NYC. I was like, how is it that my best friend from high school moved to Alaska with her MAT and got three job offers in one afternoon at a job fair for teachers? She didn't go to Columbia or UPenn. And this was for teaching English, not even teaching science or math.

Honestly, you have to move to get a job if it's tough where you are. That's how it's done. Too many pharmacists in LA? I'd move to Alaska, South Dakota, wherever. I'd join the military. You gotta do what you gotta do to make your bread, man.

 

[pallywally]

Also, my neighbor recently told me that when he decided to go to medical school in the 80s, everybody discouraged him and told him there were too many doctors and he'd never get a job. Though, he couldn't stay in the town where he grew up and went to college in like he dreamed and ended up working at an Ohio VA place.

Be glad you aren't graduating in six figures debt with a law degree. Those poor losers have little to no hope because nearly all of them went into it hoping to pay their loans off with a BIGLAW job that would pay them six figures.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Competition didn't ruin the juris doctor market, diploma mills did.

When any profession starts seeing schools opening up that cater to people who have abysmal GPAs and minimal stats but who will pay through the nose (read: borrow from the gov't to pay through the nose) to have J.D. behind their name so they can impress people at their 10 year HS reunion, something has to be done. Hence the tiering system.

The current iteration of pharmacy is so young compared to law that it will take some time to get to that point.

I'd like to note that, at least for CA, the first time bar passage is right around the CPJE mark, and for other states is nowhere near the NAPLEX in terms of extremely high passing rate. So there might be a lot of people with the J.D. education but who never actually practice, because the bar is actually a good exam, unlike the NAPLEX (That 9/10 people pass, nationally).

On a slightly related note, to get into a T10 school you need to be tip top awesome. I helped my wife study for her LSAT and those logic games that you need to beat to get a 170+ on the LSAT are absolutely inhuman. They broke my frickin' brain. There is no pharmacy school even remotely close to as selective as the best law schools... which is interesting to me.

 

[pallywally]

Competition didn't ruin the juris doctor market, diploma mills did.

When any profession starts seeing schools opening up that cater to people who have abysmal GPAs and minimal stats but who will pay through the nose (read: borrow from the gov't to pay through the nose) to have J.D. behind their name so they can impress people at their 10 year HS reunion, something has to be done. Hence the tiering system.

I completely agree. I want to add that there are pretty low barriers to entry to law school as well. Nobody needs prerequisites or a set major except for a bachelor's to get into law school. There aren't any pre-requisite courses either, so it's no surprise that every five seconds, some liberal arts major with an art history degree or creative writing major contemplates taking the LSAT and going to law school. It seems like an easier career transition than halting what you're doing, re-enrolling at a university or (horror!) community college, to take science courses, especially when they think not being good at science and math is part of their identity.

Then there are the ones who think working retail is really low-brow, and they think that's all pharmacists do.

The ones that are hearty enough to consider going back to school to fulfill science pre-reqs appear to mainly be considering going back for nursing. There are scores of people (mostly women) from my graduating college class going back to school for nursing, which I gather is because there aren't any GREs involved, it takes 2 years through the accelerated course with the tons of accelerated BSN programs popping up (and a weird number of the folks I graduated with are shelling out big bucks for Ivy League nursing schools).

If you're a working professional, four years sounds like a hell of a long time. It's only 1 yr more than law school, but when I told my plans to my colleague who is off to law school this fall, he said, "Wow, four years is a really long time!" and I pointed out that three years wasn't that much less than four anyway. I imagine he'll be spending a year looking for a job if he doesn't end up at the top of his class at law school (because he's not the type to hang a shingle out in Alabama or South Dakota and has a disdain for non-BIGLAW and non-govt lawyers). or gets cold-offered during a summer internship (which he might not get now that they reduced summer associate class sizes by so much).

 

[pallywally]

On a slightly related note, to get into a T10 school you need to be tip top awesome. I helped my wife study for her LSAT and those logic games that you need to beat to get a 170+ on the LSAT are absolutely inhuman. They broke my frickin' brain. There is no pharmacy school even remotely close to as selective as the best law schools... which is interesting to me.

The colleague I was mentioning was horrible at logic games. He got himself a private tutor and pretty much mastered the games. I'm pretty certain you could get them once you spent $100/hr with this guy's logic games tutor. He'd even taken a really expensive LSAT prep course from TestMasters. It was after that that he got the special tutor and worked like a demon on the Logic Games Bible. He's going to an Ivy League school after taking the LSAT twice. He said it clicks after you work on it hard enough.

 

[Thumper17]

There is no pharmacy school even remotely close to as selective as the best law schools... which is interesting to me.

http://chicago.lawschoolnumbers.com/ U Of Chicago's Law School Stats

http://chicago.lawschoolnumbers.com/ UIC COP Stats

Since those are the two best law/pharmacy schools in Illinois (and about the same ranking overall in their respective occupation nationally) I used them as an example. U of C has an acceptance rate of ~15%, and UIC with the new Rockford school opening this year is ~17.5% (students said there were 1200-1300 apps for 210 slots at my interview). I would say the GPAs are compareable (3.67 to 3.4 average GPAs), considering that most law students IN GENERAL take courses where there is more grade inflation when compared to science (history, english, philosophy, whatever). Also, a bachelors is almost a 100% requirement at UIC at this point and both accept people who test in the upper 95% in the LSAT/PCAT.

Pharmacy schools are not quite there yet, but the top ones (especially some Cali schools I would imagine) are becoming every bit as competitive as the top law schools. Hopefully sometime in the near future what school you attended becomes as important as it is in law😀