Were you/are you/would you be embarrassed? (Unfunded program)

[modestmousktr]

Hello all! Hope everyone is enjoying summer. I have a question- would you be embarrassed to have attended an unfunded program if, in the end, you ended up where you wanted to be? Or- if you did attend a reputable, but unfunded program, do you regret this decision?

Off the top of my head, some schools I can think of that don't offer funding but seem to have okay APA-match rates (above 60-70)... and average reputations include: University of Rhode Island, UC Santa Barbara, Loma Linda University, Fairleigh Dickinson University, etc.

I'm asking this because I have a really solid research match at two universities like the ones mentioned above, but I'm not sure if it's something I should proceed with. Also, my GRE score is intensely holding me back. I've taken it twice, and it's very poor. I plan on taking it again 1-2 more times, and although it has risen a lot, it is NOT competitive for most of the funded schools I am applying to. I realize the GRE score isn't the be-all-end-all, but I do believe the programs I am applying to use it as a screening tool.

First, I'd have to come to terms with the fact that I was not making any money for six years, and in fact, owing money (I've never taken out a loan before, either!), and second, I'd have to deal with wondering if I should've held out for one more application cycle to go to a school with tuition remission+stipend and a better reputation. But, I know alumni of these schools who are doing something I would like to do, which is teach at a SLAC or work as a primary investigator in a community mental health center.

TL;DR if it all worked out in the end, would you still have some regrets/doubt/resentment/whatever about having attended an unfunded program? Also, I stress unfunded with solid reputation because I am hoping not to start the degree mill debate, as I would not consider one of these programs (wanting to teach and do research full time after my Ph.D., don't think that could happen at a for-profit uni with a bad rep).

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[cara susanna]

I don't think this career path is worth all of that debt, tbh.

 

[PsychBiker]

The concern of money/debt is an understandable one, but there is no need to be embarrassed for the choices you make. In the end, if you end up feeling embarrassed, then maybe it was the wrong choice.

 

[modestmousktr]

I don't think this career path is worth all of that debt, tbh.

Agree with Cara. Had I not been accepted into a funded program, I would have pursued an alternative career path. I think taking out debt that will far exceed the average starting and mid-career salary one can expect to make just doesn't make financial sense. If you are considering this path, I would recommend seriously considering the financial implications and consulting with someone knowledgeable. Too many people are relying on federal debt relief and income-based repayment programs with no guarantee that they will be around for the life of the loan.

I wholeheartedly agree, which is where I think the hesitation or embarrassment on my part comes from. I feel like if I'm supposed to be here, or qualified, I could get into a funded program. My issue is that I'm just not sure how many times I should apply for funded doctoral programs, year after year, before I finally give up and either a) go to one of the unfunded schools listed above, or b) just do something with my M.A. degree and admit defeat. I have this bad feeling in my stomach when I think about paying 100,000 to get a Ph.D- I was definitely going to rely on the California Doctoral Incentive Program which forgives 30% of your loans across 3 years or something like that, but that's still a considerable amount of debt, especially when I would not be making any money for 5-6 years to pay that debt off with.

The concern of money/debt is an understandable one, but there is no need to be embarrassed for the choices you make. In the end, if you end up feeling embarrassed, then maybe it was the wrong choice.

I think that's probably where my trepidation comes from... it's like I know it's wrong but at the same time it's really, really tempting. I can rationalize it all day long- "It's a Ph.D.! It's way cheaper than other unfunded programs! You might get an assistantship! What will you do with an M.A.? Tons of people have loans!" but in the end it feels a little unsettling to even be considering. I recently bought a 1,000 computer and even that left an icky feeling in my stomach.

 

[KillerDiller]

I thought University of Rhode Island and UCSB were funded. Fairleigh Dickinson is partially funded, right? To me there's a pretty big difference between coming out of a program that will allow you to graduate with a modest amount of debt (e.g. you have to take out some money each year for living expenses), and a program where you pay your way as well as your living expenses. In the end, the amount you are comfortable taking out is up to you, though. Maybe use some loan repayment calculators to get a sense of what monthly payments you could expect.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't think it's a question of embarrassment really. I wouldn't even consider the programs for several reasons related to pragmatics (e.g., ridiculous debt load, difficulty finding future employment, limited advancement opportunities). I'm with psycsientist, if I had not gotten into a funded program, I would have gone one of several other options I was considering.

 

[haRtwin]

I thought University of Rhode Island and UCSB were funded. Fairleigh Dickinson is partially funded, right? To me there's a pretty big difference between coming out of a program that will allow you to graduate with a modest amount of debt (e.g. you have to take out some money each year for living expenses), and a program where you pay your way as well as your living expenses. In the end, the amount you are comfortable taking out is up to you, though. Maybe use some loan repayment calculators to get a sense of what monthly payments you could expect.

It's possible to receive full funding from URI, but the chances are slim since the opportunity comes from a single digit number of fellowships awarded across the entire the graduate school. The two primary options are either partial funding or no funding, both of which have been the case for many years now. Students can receive partial funding through rare opportunities (at least for first years) for an RA, TA, or department assistantships.

I thought the faculty and students danced around discussions of funding when I interviewed here. I did participate in a few candid, one-on-one discussions about funding with faculty. One of them described the situation as "grim." Another turned the argument on it's head, stating that no or partial funding can be a plus, since it encourages students to finish the program faster. Personally, that wasn't the environment I sought in a graduate program, so I chose one of my fully funded options, despite the "prestige" in working with a particular faculty member at that university.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Embarassed about how much I paid for my doctorate at a partially funded school (I paid about 60K in tuition, living expenses added up to a bit more than that)? Nope. Of course, the prices have increased since I attended. Ultimately, you need to do the cost/benefit analysis. Also, factor in willingness to use loan repayment opportunities and interest rates on the loans. Most of my loans are under 3% and the couple loans I had to take out that were higher are going to be paid off this year by the NHSC loan repayment program. I have worked with MA level people who have half the debt I have, but I also have more employment opportunities and make quite a bit more money. It also took me longer to get to where I was making that money so that has to be thought about, as well. Five years after finishing my degree, I am starting to see some financial rewards and am very happy with my choice to become a psychologist. I also worked for ten years in the transportation industry and my brother still works in that field and ten years in sales (most of that while I was going to school). The truth is that I am ecstatic when I compare my career now to what it has been in the past.

 

[psychRA]

For me, it would really depend on the total amount of anticipated debt. I think a lot of us end up taking on at least some debt during grad school, even in fully funded programs, but paying back $20k is very different from paying back $200k. Even for a reputable program, I would not want to take on more debt than I could reasonably pay back on a typical psychologist salary.

 

[JMB92]

It's possible to receive full funding from URI, but the chances are slim since the opportunity comes from a single digit number of fellowships awarded across the entire the graduate school. The two primary options are either partial funding or no funding, both of which have been the case for many years now. Students can receive partial funding through rare opportunities (at least for first years) for an RA, TA, or department assistantships.

I thought the faculty and students danced around discussions of funding when I interviewed here. I did participate in a few candid, one-on-one discussions about funding with faculty. One of them described the situation as "grim." Another turned the argument on it's head, stating that no or partial funding can be a plus, since it encourages students to finish the program faster. Personally, that wasn't the environment I sought in a graduate program, so I chose one of my fully funded options, despite the "prestige" in working with a particular faculty member at that university.

Hi, from what you remember, does this apply to the entire department, including Behavioral Science PhD? I have a funded offer (guaranteed for 5 years) at a better ranked program, but URI's research match seemed really good, too. My boyfriend thinks I shouldn't waste their time by attending their visit day. Honestly, reading this thread makes me wonder about the program a lot because I simply can't accept an unfunded offer 🙁

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'd be concerned with the debt (because debt can be a 10-20 year anchor)….this all becomes much more real when you try and buy a home. Banks don't like people in debt, though I guess it is more common these days. It isn't all doom and gloom because you can do income based repayment and/or other programs that can forgive chunks of debt, but it is best to avoid debt on the front-end. I know you didn't directly ask about this, but it can be frustrating to try and do everything right (e.g. APA-acred program, APA-acred. internship, fellowship, etc) and still come out w. a bunch of debt. Be conservative with your estimates for debt, as numbers rarely go down and often go up in regard to costs. Best of luck.

 

[John Dory]

i have the same question. not so much the embarrassment part as the 'should i hold off a year' and try to be more competitive (also one of my gre scores holding me back severely). should i take the 'bird in hand' which is a phd in clinical psych (match rates of around 85%, i think reputable) that would probably send me nearly $100000 in debt for tuition alone at partial funding?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

i have the same question. not so much the embarrassment part as the 'should i hold off a year' and try to be more competitive (also one of my gre scores holding me back severely). should i take the 'bird in hand' which is a phd in clinical psych (match rates of around 85%, i think reputable) that would probably send me nearly $100000 in debt for tuition alone at partial funding?

Hold off. If you have a shot at a fully funded program…that is….by far…the better option than taking on $100k+ in debt.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, especially if tuition alone is 100K, add in living expenses and you are way beyond a reasonable debt load.

 

[bcliff]

There is no shortage of clinical psychology graduates (there is a shortage of psychologists working in underserved locations and with underserved populations, but that is not the same thing), so yes, I would recommend that you hold off.

Personally, I would never attend a clinical psychology PhD program that wasn't fully funded. It doesn't make sense for me individually and it's detrimental to the profession as a whole because it increases the supply of psychologists without doing anything to the limited demand for psychologists.

I wonder how the match imbalance, dwindling reimbursement rates, etc. would be affected if the only people becoming clinical psychologists were people who attended fully funded programs? Maybe I'm wrong, and there are too few fully funded slots, so there would actually be a shortage of clinical psychologists - Seems doubtful, but possible?

 

[Justanothergrad]

I would encourage those looking at 100k+ in debt (and likely more tbh if you are an unfunded post-bac) to examine their career goals.

It shouldn't be about embarassment, but I don't think those programs are effective at helping students hit the goals/lifestyles they went after the PhD for.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Another turned the argument on it's head, stating that no or partial funding can be a plus, since it encourages students to finish the program faster.

Wow, those are some "impressive" mental gymnastics there!

 

[PsyDr]

If I were confined to your chosen areas of practice, I would not do it. You would hamstring your ability to buy a house and put off retirement for a long time.

As for embarrassed... It's a job. Who cares? You probably won't end up famous. And being the most well regarded psychologist is like being the best known dentist, but poorer. Most of the general population can't readily describe the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. More than likely you'll see some people, help, get paid, and go home.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree with the others--it's not about embarrassment so much as it is just economic realities. Even with IBR/PSLF/etc., having $100-200k+ in loans is going to significantly affect your economic situation and planning. Is it possible to survive? Sure. Is it going to be a different reality than if you'd had 10% of that amount in debt? Definitely.

As for the education itself, once you find a job, relatively few people are going to care for any extended amount of time where you went to school. At that point, the quality of your work and how well you get along with others is going to affect things substantially more than who gave you your degree, although the former can of course be highly influenced by where you were trained. And finding the jobs themselves may be more difficult if your school has a poor reputation.