WesternU COMP or MidwesternU AZCOM

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Doctor G

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Hello all! I am deciding between the two schools right now. I've put down the deposit for AZCOM already (since I got accepted to AZCOM long time ago; I can get $100 back if I choose to withdraw). Recently, I just found out that I got accepted to COMP! (Just three days after my interview, I was amazed).

I have higher preference for COMP right now. (Location so I can live at home, more organized clinical rotation, and curriculum). But AZCOM definitely have it's pro's. (Higher COMLEX passing rate, higher chance of getting a speciality residency spot? So more flexible? Also, from what I've heard, you have to put in your own effort in setting up rotations?) Anyways, for those of you who are medical students at either COMP or AZCOM, would you mind posting some of your comments on the pro's and con's of the schools?

Thank you very much! :)

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This is actually the situation I am dealing with and I have 4 more days to decide and send the deposit for either one.
I'm from Utah and I have always wanted to move to Los Angeles.
Here is what I have taught so far:
Comp
Location
Numerous residency opportunities
Better affiliation with hospitals
More chance of getting residency in CA

AZCOM
*Higher COMLEX pass rate (I don't think higher in numbers, only higher pass rate)
Cheaper to live
Really nice campus
Students seems happier there

*I think having higher passing rates is not as relevant, because I doubt one that seeks for competitive residency would fail no matter which one he chooses

I hope we get more feedbacks from other current students
 
Thank you LVmedicine for your input. It would be nice to see other people post on here. Thank you guys in advance! :love:
 
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G,

A search will turn up LOTS of threads on this...you're probably best served looking at those, as they're pretty comprehensive. Take into consideration, also, the fact that AZCOM's rotation opportunities in the Valley will likely increase now that the situation has come to the attention of several major AZ lawmakers.
 
LukeWhite said:
G,

Take into consideration, also, the fact that AZCOM's rotation opportunities in the Valley will likely increase now that the situation has come to the attention of several major AZ lawmakers.


Don't hold your breath...
 
bikerboy said:
Don't hold your breath...

Given what the movers and shakers behind the new med school, the Governor, and the president of UoA med are saying, it seems like a foregone conclusion that AZCOM grads will, in the coming years, have many more valley opportunities. I can understand some students who really had their heart set on easier valley rotations being skeptical about this, but this is one case in which your prior experience isn't relevant to what's going on now. The changes are external to the school, and so much more likely.
 
LukeWhite said:
that one's a little self-serving, don't you think?

I don't understand what you mean by "self-serving", so, no, i don't think.

You are welcome to comment if you think that thread wasn't helpful, or whatever. But your comment that it's "self-serving" lost me.
 
Jinya, did COMP just set something up that students get to rotate a maximum of two times in any given specialty?

DoctorG, given your reasons for each school in your original post, I think COMP will serve you better.
 
OnMyWayThere said:
Jinya, did COMP just set something up that students get to rotate a maximum of two times in any given specialty?

DoctorG, given your reasons for each school in your original post, I think COMP will serve you better.

Hm...not that I know of...but that does sound like a likely scenario. I'm gonna find a 3rd year student to ask.

Let me think... If they do place a limit on it, it's probably only for the electives. Let's say if you're interested in general surgery, you already have the required surgery rotation, then I guess you can do 2 more as electives? I guess they don't want people to limit themselves? But with all the electives they give you, you can definitely tailor something to your advantage. Let's say you want to do neuro surgery, then for your electives, you can do 2 general surg., 2 neurology, 2 radiology...etc. which are all related.

I'll PM you if I find out more.
 
Okay...here we go...I'll try to answer questions that have come up so far in this post, BUT do a SEARCH!!! b/c this has been discussed in the past.

1. You will have to be on top of setting up your rotations at COMP too, not just AZCOM, but we do have some pretty well established rotations.

2. Yes, location is nice at COMP. And it probably helps significantly if you want to get a residency in So Cal. (although, Arizona isn't too far away, and if you have family in the So Cal area, then THAT is your tie to the area and will probably satisfy most program directors).

3. Traffic is a pain during your 3rd and 4th years at COMP, depending on where you set up your rotations, but hey, it's L.A.

4. We have several people from Utah in my class(DO 2005) at COMP and they have liked it as far as I know.

5. Yes, I have heard that passing rates on boards are better at AZCOM, which is great...but bottom line is that medical school is adult learning, and if you want to do well on COMLEX/USMLE, then you just have to work hard. That goes for both schools I bet.

6. As far as really competitive specialties....if you are dead set on it, maybe you should consider going to MD school, but regardless of either AZCOM or COMP, I think it can be done. More often than not, people who work hard earn that competitive specialty. We had good placement into MD programs this year.....quite a few PM&R & Anesthesiology, 1 Ortho, 1 Rads. We also had 1 Derm and 1 Rads in the military. And some ENT spots in the DO match which probably aren't that easy to get either. Good match list with respect to Internal Medicine & Pediatrics as well, and those people are very good students.

7. I did hear that there will only be two electives in the same specialty, but there are ways around that to a certain degree. For example, you want to do Emergency Medicine somewhere, then do your two electives in EM, and maybe do a EM Research elective. Or do a Sub-Internship at the hospital that has an EM program, and you just make yourself known to the ER attendings. Or if you have an easier rotation at the hospital, you ask the EM program director if you can spend some time in the ER.

8. Med school sucks in general, probably no matter where you go...so you might as well go somewhere you'll be happy living for four years.

(In case I didn't make it obvious, I'm graduating from COMP next month, and matched into a competitive MD residency. Hopefully an AZCOM student will have some advice too.)
 
Jinyaoysiu said:
Hm...not that I know of...but that does sound like a likely scenario. I'm gonna find a 3rd year student to ask.

Let me think... If they do place a limit on it, it's probably only for the electives. Let's say if you're interested in general surgery, you already have the required surgery rotation, then I guess you can do 2 more as electives? I guess they don't want people to limit themselves? But with all the electives they give you, you can definitely tailor something to your advantage. Let's say you want to do neuro surgery, then for your electives, you can do 2 general surg., 2 neurology, 2 radiology...etc. which are all related.

I'll PM you if I find out more.

Well the above poster made it clear that is the case now. Thanks :thumbup:
 
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I'm graduating from AZCOM this year and I would highly encourage you to attend COMP. AZCOM has a nice campus and it's first two years are nice. However the rotation setup is atrocious. The administration does very little in regards to providing opportunities to rotate. Since I have been here, we have opened a perfusion program and a podiatry school. That shows where my tuition dollars are going as opposed to working out a deal with the University of Arizona so we can rotate at local hospitals during core rotations. I also think our OMM department is highly flawed. We recently fired one of the best OMM faculty because he took the heat for the complaints against the deparment leveled by many of our first and second year students. Clinical years are strictly pass/fail so your class rank is determined solely by your first two years in basic sciences. Unlike other medical schools, you can't compensate for poor basic science grades with excellent clinical grades. You can't raise your GPA or class rank during clinicals at AZCOM. And many programs look strictly at your clinical grades which you will have no way of setting yourself apart because you are not graded during your clinicals

I have no incentive to belittle my school. Ask yourself, why would I do this? Shouldn't I speak highly of my school with my self interest in mind? I'm doing this because I want students to make an informed decision and know what I didn't know. Beware that most of the information about AZCOM is provided by first and second year students such as Lukehave not gone through clinical rotations. Most of the graduates and older students like myself have a very different opinon.
 
LukeWhite said:
G,

A search will turn up LOTS of threads on this...you're probably best served looking at those, as they're pretty comprehensive. Take into consideration, also, the fact that AZCOM's rotation opportunities in the Valley will likely increase now that the situation has come to the attention of several major AZ lawmakers.

This type of speech was said three years ago when AZCOM was supposedly going to take legal action against U of A and blah blah blah....shoulda woulda coulda. It means nothing until it is in stone.
 
novacek88 said:
Clinical years are strictly pass/fail so your class rank is determined solely by your first two years in basic sciences. Unlike other medical schools, you can't compensate for poor basic science grades with excellent clinical grades. You can't raise your GPA or class rank during clinicals at AZCOM. And many programs look strictly at your clinical grades which you will have no way of setting yourself apart because you are not graded during your clinicals

This isn't the story about clinical grades I've heard.
 
So LukeWhite, what stories have you been heard about clinical grades? Thank you novacek88 for your input. I will put that into consideration when I decide. From what I've heard now, AZCOM has strong first two years in the basic science. They do prepare students well for the board. But it's 3rd and 4th year require students' own effort to set up rotations, and there's a high chance of travelling around out of state during those years. I really want to stay local for my clinical rotations: I just want to concentrate on my rotations without having to worry about moving to here or there. ;)
 
Doctor G said:
So LukeWhite, what stories have you been heard about clinical grades? Thank you novacek88 for your input. I will put that into consideration when I decide. From what I've heard now, AZCOM has strong first two years in the basic science. They do prepare students well for the board. But it's 3rd and 4th year require students' own effort to set up rotations, and there's a high chance of travelling around out of state during those years. I really want to stay local for my clinical rotations: I just want to concentrate on my rotations without having to worry about moving to here or there. ;)

G,

I think Novacek probably heard that AZCOM was getting rid of honors in rotations and figured that meant we were pass/fail. Not the case. Clinical grades *are* calculated and are based on six or seven factors. I don't remember them all, but they include preceptor evaluations, COMLEX scores, standardized patient exam score, etc. The claim that your rank is locked in after second year is, to the best of my knowledge, false.

The new story with rotations seems to be that hospitals locking out AZCOM students will forfeit their state funding after July 1. The UoA president is now on record saying essentially that integration is a matter of how, not if. Several state legislators and the governor are in AZCOM's corner. While even *now* you can do all rotations in the valley if you want, I'd be amazed if in a few years the opportunites aren't vastly increased.

I'd encourage you to consider at least a little moving if you can handle it. Of course, family concerns, etc keep some people from doing so. But AZCOM has very strong Kingman rotations that will offer you more third-year clinical experience than you could get at any other medical school in the country. You can also set several of those up in a row and so not move for months, if you like.

I set up most of my rotations individually with our rotation coordinator. These were all outside Phoenix and so not in the lottery system. This let me choose what specialty I wanted when, and so I was able to get an order that will be most advantageous for my goals. For example, I'm set on FP: I start out with two FP rotations with lots of hands on experience, and my third FP rotation, which is famous for its challenge and the huge number of babies students deliver, is much later, after I do my OB, Peds, and IM. I set up my surgery before OB: I'm not interested in surgery *except* for C-sections, and so when I get into my obstetrics rotation I'll have plenty of experience with the technical details so that I can get my hands dirty. Set up the other way, I'd almost certainly be only observing on the tough procedures.

As far as I know, this is more or less unique among all schools, and it's an advantage I haven't seen discussed much. While staying in Phoenix will likely mean a more traditional setup in which order is less in your control, being able to do even just a few rotations in outer Arizona (Kingman, Sierra Vista, Prescott, etc) will have a huge impact on your clinical education and how much you're able to get out of each. This sort of advantage could never be implemented universally across med schools, and so AZCOM offers someone willing to put in some strategic planning a tremendous opportunity.
 
Thank you LukeWhite for your perspective. Why do they get rid of the honors in rotations? Does FP mean "family practice"? Did you travel out of state for your rotations (e.g. California)? One of my friends at COMP told me that if you want to do specialities in the future, then he advised me to go to AZCOM. What are your opinions on this? I'm geared toward primary care more, in which area COMP is strong in. But given your comments on the strategic planning on rotations, I think whatever one is gonna do in the future (either primary care or speciality), everything is possible. Generally, how hard is it to set up rotations in "the way you wanted"?

Hey current COMPer's and AZCOMer's, what are your comments on this?
 
Doctor G said:
Thank you LukeWhite for your perspective. Why do they get rid of the honors in rotations? Does FP mean "family practice"? Did you travel out of state for your rotations (e.g. California)? One of my friends at COMP told me that if you want to do specialities in the future, then he advised me to go to AZCOM. What are your opinions on this? I'm geared toward primary care more, in which area COMP is strong in. But given your comments on the strategic planning on rotations, I think whatever one is gonna do in the future (either primary care or speciality), everything is possible. Generally, how hard is it to set up rotations in "the way you wanted"?

Hey current COMPer's and AZCOMer's, what are your comments on this?

G,

My rotations are upcoming--I'm finishing up second year and start rotations in July.

AZCOM certainly does have a very strong match record, but I'm absolutely convinced it's as good as any school in the nation for primary care if you plan your rotations right. FP is indeed family practice; I knew coming in that I was going to specialize in FP and so had a bit of an advantage in terms of scheduling.

It's very easy to set up rotations how you want, provided you don't mind traveling a little or going a bit outside of Phoenix. I spent several hours researching the reviews of various preceptors, and also met individually with our rotation coordinator. I explained to her that I wanted as much practical experience as possible, and she was able to provide specific recommendations for me; she also made sure that housing would be readily available.

Setting up rotations will be a little more work when it comes to arranging rotations with hospitals out of state, but it's still not bad and far more than you can do in most schools. I'm planning on doing at least two rotations in third year at places I'd consider for residency; that's more or less unheard of for a third-year student at any other school. Additionally, I'm doing three months back at home in the Midwest at the hospital my dad practices in. I may do a rotation in Alaska just for fun. Flexibility like that just doesn't happen at other schools.

All in all, I've spent less time setting up rotations than I would studying for a particularly hard test, and I'm set up with rotations which, if past student reviews and our coordinator are to be believed, will give an amazing range of practical experience. This is fantastic for people who want to go into primary care; we've had students who have delivered thirty babies in one month of *family practice* rotation. You're lucky to get half a dozen anywhere else over the course of your entire education.

Actually, that rotation is an example of the virtues of AZCOM's setup. I had heard about this rotation and specifically asked for it; it was set up for me the same day and I was able to pick the month I wanted (and, like I said, set up some crucial rotations beforehand so I could get the most out of it).

Again, to get the most out of this sytem, you'll have to travel a bit, though travelling is by no means necessary--I have plenty of classmates who plan on staying in Phoenix exclusively. The great thing about the AZCOM system is that you can set it up how you want. Novacek, I think, tends to be a little disgruntled because he seems more or less to have set up his rotations to look as much like a traditional med education as possible. If you go that route, AZCOM requires a bit more work, and it may be worth it for people who want to stay in Phoenix. But if you're willing to be creative and proactive about your education, you can arrange opportunities for yourself that are really unique.
 
Doctor G said:
Thank you LukeWhite for your perspective. Why do they get rid of the honors in rotations? Does FP mean "family practice"? Did you travel out of state for your rotations (e.g. California)? One of my friends at COMP told me that if you want to do specialities in the future, then he advised me to go to AZCOM. What are your opinions on this? I'm geared toward primary care more, in which area COMP is strong in. But given your comments on the strategic planning on rotations, I think whatever one is gonna do in the future (either primary care or speciality), everything is possible. Generally, how hard is it to set up rotations in "the way you wanted"?

Hey current COMPer's and AZCOMer's, what are your comments on this?

I would be weary of Luke's advice. He is a second year who has yet to rotate. It's nothing personal against him but it is common to see 1st and 2nd year students be very enthusiastic about AZCOM and offer what they think they know about the school as opposed to the facts. And many times, they can't get this type of information until they go through the process themselves. Luke will know a lot more next May than he will now. Case in point, Luke didn't know your class rank at AZCOM is set after MS II. He didn't believe me until another student CREED verified what i said. This is also why Luke ignored your question as to why we stopped giving Honors during rotations because he honestly didn't know the answer.

The reason AZCOM abandoned honors in rotations is that everyone has his or her unique schedule as to what rotation he or she is doing during a particular month. For example, I may do my surgery rotation in September. I would then take my shelf exam some time after September. Bob may do his surgery rotation in April and take his shelf shortly after that. Bob would be at an advantage because many students write down the questions or remember them and pass them on to their friends who take the exam later on. This provided an unfair advantage and many students complained so they did away with Honors.

AZCOM has a beautiful campus. And you don't have to travel for rotations. If you are content with doing preceptor based rotation, you can stay locally. And for some students, this is a perfectly legitimate option. However, it will make you less competitive when you are applying for competitive allopathic fields or even competitive allopathic primary care programs. Most allopathic programs are skeptical of preceptor related rotations because they know they tend to be easier and less stressful. This is why most students do their best to acquire hospital based rotations and will travel to acquire them. I felt this was a big nuisance.

And Luke tries to depict me as some prima donna. I think that is unfair. The truth is you are paying for your education. AZCOM is not cheap. In fact, you are paying more money to attend AZCOM than you are for many top private Ivy league schools. At the very least, you should get what you pay for. If you are having to set up your owns rotations yourself and travel all over the country on your own dime, then you are not getting what you are paying for. You might as well go to foreign medical school like Ross because that is what those schools are known for doing. You don't pay to attend a DO school to feel like an FMG during 3rd year. I agree that COMP has a worse campus but the bottom line is that they are doing what you are paying them to do. When it comes to clinical training and rotations, you are getting what you are paying for. And if you want to stay in California, that is even more of an incentive to attend COMP.
 
I'm sorry, Novacek, I'm not sure I said anywhere I believed your take on class rank. Seems to be a difference of opinion among the ranks, so I'm going to do a bit more research on it. As for why honors were discontinued, there was an explicit answer sent out by clinical ed at the time it happened. I'm not going to paraphrase an exact answer when I don't have it in front of me.

As for prima donnishness, I certainly think no such thing. However, you do seem to have a set of unrealistic expectations about the school. To your continued assertion that "you should get what you pay for," I'd respond that you should expect what you signed up for. If you weren't aware of it at the time, you might consider whose fault that is exactly. Plenty of us were.
 
LukeWhite said:
I'm sorry, Novacek, I'm not sure I said anywhere I believed your take on class rank. Seems to be a difference of opinion among the ranks, so I'm going to do a bit more research on it. As for why honors were discontinued, there was an explicit answer sent out by clinical ed at the time it happened. I'm not going to paraphrase an exact answer when I don't have it in front of me.

That is because the ranks consist of second years like yourself who don't know the answer. That is like the blind leading the blind.

According to the student handbook:

Class Rank

Student class ranks are computed after each completed quarter except during fieldwork and clinical rotations. Class rank is not included on the official college transcript. A student who wishes to have his/her class rank included in an official document must make a written request to the Registrar. Class rank may not be available for all programs.


http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/admini...H_policy.htm#28

If you have trouble going to this link. Go to online.midwestern.edu. Go to Student Services and look up the handbook. It's listed there.
 
LV medicine,

I posted on the pre-osteo thread as well. That information is incorrect. Only 1 student matched into the ACGME ortho program in New Jersey, and one in the DO match somewhere in MI. I have contacted the school to let them know the error. FYI-Lots of excellent students matched into PM&R, which is what might be listed under the "12 ortho" spots.
 
well thanks for your response. I tought the one on their webs site was more accurate. guess not
 
So now it's clear... man... i was gonna say... 12 ortho is like almost unheard of and would put COMP ahead of some of the most competitive schools...

but 2 is just fine and plenty to put us high enough on the map, not to mention the ENT, facial plastic, Radio., Anthe, PM&R...etc

so DocG if you're wondering if you could specialize in something, COMP's record should speak for itself.
 
Jinyaoysiu said:
So now it's clear... man... i was gonna say... 12 ortho is like almost unheard of and would put COMP ahead of some of the most competitive schools...

but 2 is just fine and plenty to put us high enough on the map, not to mention the ENT, facial plastic, Radio., Anthe, PM&R...etc

so DocG if you're wondering if you could specialize in something, COMP's record should speak for itself.

No school will help you specialize. You could attend the worst school and if you have stellar grades and boards, you will be fine. AZCOM provides no advantage over COMP or vice versa in regards to the school helping one specialize. I think that has more to do with the desire of the student body. If more students in your class choose to specialize, they usually will. However, schools do have strong local ties so if you are interested in doing residency in California, COMP is by far a better option in my opinion.
 
In all honesty, if you're sure you want to specialize in a particular field, I don't think COMP is a solid choice. It is very important, some recidencies require it, to rotate at their hospital before residency. COMP just implemented a new rule that you can rotate a maximum of 2 times in any given specialty(so if you want to specialize in Rads, you're only allowed 2 Rads electives as opposed to 5 at some other schools). You're better off rotating in this specialty you're interested more than twice - ultimately getting yourself known there, showing your interest in the field and getting LORs from those rotations. So keep that in mind if you're sold on a particular specialty and choosing schools based on that.
 
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