What are all these sub-categories in the surgical match?

[dbeast]

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Hey peeps, I was reading this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=998216

And got a little confused about what happens in the surgical match. I think transitional and maybe prelim are bad... Categorical seems to be good... and apparently it's tough to jump from one to the other? I know this is a total rookie question but I can't find a good summary of the differences. I really appreciate anybody who can clear this up. Thank you!

 

[FSU2013]

Hey peeps, I was reading this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=998216

And got a little confused about what happens in the surgical match. I think transitional and maybe prelim are bad... Categorical seems to be good... and apparently it's tough to jump from one to the other? I know this is a total rookie question but I can't find a good summary of the differences. I really appreciate anybody who can clear this up. Thank you!

Google is your friend.

They're not 'bad' or 'good.' Categorical just means they have a spot during 2nd year (i.e. if you start first year, you're expected to graduate from a general surgery residency program after 5 years). Transitional is generally what people do when you match into something that really starts during 2nd year, like radonc, radiology, etc. Prelim can be a couple things (I believe) - it certainly encompasses people who couldnt get a categorical spot and are trying to work their way in (i.e. if you fail to match GS or ortho, you could do a prelim GS year and try to get to know the people in that dept), but I believe it can also be like the people who are doing a transitional year but have a categorical residency starting in the following year. TY is generally much more cush than Prelim, so a lot of competitive applicants apply, plus a lot of the PGY2 residencies are just more competitive, so you have a more competitive pool of people applying.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Prelim surgery = intern year only. On a rare occasion, prelims are asked to stay on as a categorical after their intern year. Do not count on this.

Categorical surgery = pgy1-5...a complete general surgery residency

Transitional has nothing to do with surgery. Transitional years are something people get for their intern year if they are going into derm, rads, anesthesia, ophtho, pm&r (if they don't do a transitional year, then they will do a prelim medicine year or prelim surgery year).

 

[dbeast]

Thank you for all the help, it certainly clears most of it up. This quote from the very knowledgeable winged scapula is what got me confused though:

To be truthful, a Prelim Surgical year isn't a lot of fun especially if you're trying to get a Categorical Surgery position. But for someone like you, the expectations (on both sides) will be low. You aren't gunning for a surgical position for next year, so you don't have to put on your happy face and dance all year long as an audition.

He's saying this to a student who didn't match into a competitive subspecialty and then has to do a prelim GS year. It seems like these are precisely the people who are gunning for a spot next year and don't have any guarantees, so they should consider it more of an audition than anybody else. What am I missing?

 

[qxrt]

Thank you for all the help, it certainly clears most of it up. This quote from the very knowledgeable winged scapula is what got me confused though:



He's saying this to a student who didn't match into a competitive subspecialty and then has to do a prelim GS year. It seems like these are precisely the people who are gunning for a spot next year and don't have any guarantees, so they should consider it more of an audition than anybody else. What am I missing?

I assume from the context that the student isn't planning to get into the GS categorical (meaning likely that the student will participate in the match next year and try again for the competitive subspecialty), so there is little particular incentive to impress the GS program where he's doing his prelim surgery. In this case, the student is doing the prelim GS as something to keep him/her occupied for the year as he prepares his application again.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I assume from the context that the student isn't planning to get into the GS categorical (meaning likely that the student will participate in the match next year and try again for the competitive subspecialty), so there is little particular incentive to impress the GS program where he's doing his prelim surgery. In this case, the student is doing the prelim GS as something to keep him/her occupied for the year as he prepares his application again.

That's exactly the context.

Prelim surgical years are painful if you're trying to get into a categorical surgery position.

That poster was not ( and it wasn't even clear that their desired field was surgical at all).

Therefore my point was that this incoming intern needs to do well but doesn't need to be gunning for a position at that or any other GS program and hence can relax a little. The expectations are always low for off service residents (ie, EM residents rotating on Trauma) or Prelims not going into GS.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thank you for all the help, it certainly clears most of it up. This quote from the very knowledgeable winged scapula is what got me confused though:



He's saying this to a student who didn't match into a competitive subspecialty and then has to do a prelim GS year. It seems like these are precisely the people who are gunning for a spot next year and don't have any guarantees, so they should consider it more of an audition than anybody else. What am I missing?

FYI...I'm female.

 

[jerseytrash]

Prelim surgery = intern year only. On a rare occasion, prelims are asked to stay on as a categorical after their intern year. Do not count on this.

Categorical surgery = pgy1-5...a complete general surgery residency

Transitional has nothing to do with surgery. Transitional years are something people get for their intern year if they are going into derm, rads, anesthesia, ophtho, pm&r (if they don't do a transitional year, then they will do a prelim medicine year or prelim surgery year).

Yup. A TY is basically an extended 4th year - usually a relaxed site with lots of didactics and rotating through most major specialties. Usually coveted by the derm, ophtho, rads, anesthesia crowd as said.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Thank you for all the help, it certainly clears most of it up. This quote from the very knowledgeable winged scapula is what got me confused though:



He's saying this to a student who didn't match into a competitive subspecialty and then has to do a prelim GS year. It seems like these are precisely the people who are gunning for a spot next year and don't have any guarantees, so they should consider it more of an audition than anybody else. What am I missing?

Dr. Kimberli Cox

 

[dbeast]

That's exactly the context.

Prelim surgical years are painful if you're trying to get into a categorical surgery position.

That poster was not ( and it wasn't even clear that their desired field was surgical at all).

Therefore my point was that this incoming intern needs to do well but doesn't need to be gunning for a position at that or any other GS program and hence can relax a little. The expectations are always low for off service residents (ie, EM residents rotating on Trauma) or Prelims not going into GS.

Yes ma'am! Thanks for the info. In this situation, if the student changed their mind and wanted to reapply GS instead of whatever "competitive" specialty they were originally trying for, would they then have to step up their game in hopes of impressing their current program? Also, when someone does a prelim year, do they still have to do another surgical intern year or does the prelim year count?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes ma'am! Thanks for the info. In this situation, if the student changed their mind and wanted to reapply GS instead of whatever "competitive" specialty they were originally trying for, would they then have to step up their game in hopes of impressing their current program? Also, when someone does a prelim year, do they still have to do another surgical intern year or does the prelim year count?

If they're trying to get into GS, then yes, they should step up their game to be the *best* Prelim intern that year.

As for repeating the year, it depends on the program. The Prelim year "counts" but the program may not have room for them as a PGY-2 and may only offer them another intern position.

 

[dbeast]

If they're trying to get into GS, then yes, they should step up their game to be the *best* Prelim intern that year.

As for repeating the year, it depends on the program. The Prelim year "counts" but the program may not have room for them as a PGY-2 and may only offer them another intern position.

2 intern years? No quiero.

 

[Winged Scapula]

2 intern years? No quiero.

Yes, that is somewhat undesirable.

 

[TraumaMed]

So, then does the data from the NRMP consider non-designated preliminary surgery and categorical general as the same specialty or are they considered different? For example, when I read about average USMLE scores for general surgery does that include both preliminary and categorical applicants?