What are chances with virtually no extracurriculars?

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futurephysician57

futurephysician57

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No clinical work, no volunteering, no research, or shadowing
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Even if you had a 4.0 and 528 the answer would still be no. Ecs are what set u apart from every other "number" in the app pile. Well, you may get in somewhere but you should want to be well rounded. And by somewhere I mean like a new non accredited school or foreign school.

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I'm asking for a friend and trying to tell them it's not worth the time and money without extracurriculars. They keep saying they will kill their mcat.
 
For a real world example, I have a friend who's was Brown grad, 39 MCAT 3.95, no shadowing/clinical until after he applied..... 3 or 4 interviews and no acceptances last cycle. He switched to law no problem.
 
FindMeOnTheLinks said:
This. So funny how people think they can just decide to do well on a difficult standardized test.
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I agree. I think it's one thing to turn around a poor GPA a get straight A's. GPA is more a measure of work ethic and MCAT is more a measure of intelligence. I think it's easier to turn around a poor work ethic quickly than to turn around your thinking and quickly develop great problem solving skills. The day I got into engineering school I turned around my work ethic but it took two years to think and solve problems like an engineer.
 
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The problem is that they are not just looking for smart people (good MCAT) or academically talented hard workers (good GPA), rather they are looking for people who want to be physicians. Med school applicants must want to treat people, heal people. cure people. It's a job/career they have to be content and satisfied performing for years. The worst thing for an ADCOM is to admit someone who drops out. Some people think they want to be a physician, or go into the field for the wrong reasons, then find they hate patient interaction, or don't like the work etc. Shadowing and clinical experience display that the applicant knows what s/he is getting into and is not unhappy with that kind of work,

Smart people who want to do research should get PhD's. Kind people who want to help others should get social work degrees. Having lots of hands on, clinical experience before applying to med school displays you want to be a physician and that you are not likely to be dissatisfied with medicine and drop out of medical school wasting a seat in medical school that the ADCOM could have given to somebody else.
 
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Huggy said:
the ability to truly teach a patient how to face what they are up against, listen and understand their personal values and desires, and help them make the best decisions possible to fulfill those desires in the most difficult and vulnerable moments of their lives are the qualities that medical schools are looking for in their future students.

MCAT and GPA can't show that a person is prepared for that responsibility.
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Can you please write my personal statement? Because that was poetry.
 
I had a friend ask me and a couple of other pre-med friends (back in the day) how we did on the MCAT and how long we studied. He thought he was smarter than the rest of us, so he took my score and my study regimen (highest/lowest of the bunch) and felt that would be "good enough" for him.

Result: IIRC, something in the 30-32 range. Still made it in to med school, but not nearly as good as he thought he would do.

Part of what helped, though, was that he did figure out how to game the extracurric game, in that he started "charitable organizations" and such with his free time. They were legit charitable efforts, but calling them organizations was a bit of a stretch.
 
Well, it depends.

If you have an average MCAT/GPA, absolutely no extracurriculars, and your father happens to have donated 30 million to the med school in the last few years, I think you may have a chance.

OTOH, in almost any other circumstance, regardless of mitigating factors (I don't care what your ethnicity is), if you have no extracurriculars at all? No way jose. Not getting in anywhere.
 
Huggy said:
I'd argue that for the average physician in today's time, intelligence (in the traditional sense of the word) is becoming less and less important. Instead, the ability to truly teach a patient how to face what they are up against, listen and understand their personal values and desires, and help them make the best decisions possible to fulfill those desires in the most difficult and vulnerable moments of their lives are the qualities that medical schools are looking for in their future students.

MCAT and GPA can't show that a person is prepared for that responsibility.
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*sheds a tear*
 
efle said:
People who say they'll "just kill the MCAT" are not usually the type to kill the MCAT
My money says he gets something around 500 and changes his mind about MD school
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What score would you say qualifies for "killing the MCAT"? 90%+?
 
futurephysician57 said:
I'm asking for a friend and trying to tell them it's not worth the time and money without extracurriculars. They keep saying they will kill their mcat.
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The simple fact is, no ECs shows that a person is one-dimensional and completely unfamiliar with the medical school application process. They're free to apply, but they may as well take that money out of the bank and burn it for all the good it will do them.
 
MareNostrummm said:
What score would you say qualifies for "killing the MCAT"? 90%+?
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The average for people to matriculate anywhere is ~85th percentile as of last cycle. If we were to say "killing it" means "good enough to be competitive anywhere" it would be more like top ~5%
 
Mad Jack said:
The simple fact is, no ECs shows that a person is one-dimensional and completely unfamiliar with the medical school application process. They're free to apply, but they may as well take that money out of the bank and burn it for all the good it will do them.
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Also maintaining a high GPA (3.8+) is significantly easier with few to no ECs.. as compared to someone who is volunteering, doing research, working all throughout undergrad and still hitting a high GPA.
 
I want to follow up on this wise post with a story that LizzyM relays: there was a stellar student accepted into med school, but he had very low volunteering hours because he didn't want to do things that he didn't get paid for.

After a month of med school, he dropped out, and I believe is not an accountant.

Medicine is a service profession. One has to show that they want to spend a lifetime caring for sick and injured people. Not all patients are nice people, either. Hence, stats get you to the door; ECs get you through the door.


OathTaker said:
The problem is that they are not just looking for smart people (good MCAT) or academically talented hard workers (good GPA), rather they are looking for people who want to be physicians. Med school applicants must want to treat people, heal people. cure people. It's a job/career they have to be content and satisfied performing for years. The worst thing for an ADCOM is to admit someone who drops out. Some people think they want to be a physician, or go into the field for the wrong reasons, then find they hate patient interaction, or don't like the work etc. Shadowing and clinical experience display that the applicant knows what s/he is getting into and is not unhappy with that kind of work,

Smart people who want to do research should get PhD's. Kind people who want to help others should get social work degrees. Having lots of hands on, clinical experience before applying to med school displays you want to be a physician and that you are not likely to be dissatisfied with medicine and drop out of medical school wasting a seat in medical school that the ADCOM could have given to somebody else.
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studentdocftw said:
Committing yourself to a minimum of 7 years of schooling and not having even shadowed is borderline insane....no, I take that back, it's bat-s*** crazy.
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Well I mean you can get a masters in engineering at 7 years and never shadow an engineer. I didn't know anybody who I graduated with that shadowed an engineer.
 
I got an interview 4 years ago at a school with less than 50 hours of volunteering, no shadowing and 300 hours of research (no pubs; 1 semester).

I thought my 3.7/34 and non trad work history would float me through.

Looking back at that day, I was by far the least knowledgeable person in my interview group. I could not speak with intelligence about the profession, its challenges, and my passion. The lack of ECs showed and I was rejected the very next day.

Get some ECs
 
futurephysician57 said:
I'm asking for a friend and trying to tell them it's not worth the time and money without extracurriculars. They keep saying they will kill their mcat.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think that having strong stats but a weak resume in a traditional applicant is the kiss of death. The super competitive schools won't want you because they are able to fill their classes with people who both have strong stats and are somehow "interesting." Less competitive schools on the other hand screen out people with too-strong stats unless they have meaningful connections to that school/city. I feel like it's much better to have stats that aren't horrible and have a great resume or a compelling life story than the reverse of being a bland applicant with a 4.0 and great MCAT.
 
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Levo said:
Honestly, I think that having strong stats but a weak resume in a traditional applicant is the kiss of death. The super competitive schools won't want you because they are able to fill their classes with people who both have strong stats and are somehow "interesting." Less competitive schools on the other hand screen out people with too-strong stats unless they have meaningful connections to that school/city. I feel like it's much better to have stats that aren't horrible and have a great resume or a compelling life story than the reverse of being a bland applicant with a 4.0 and great MCAT.
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Based on my impressions I would qualify what "bland" means. If you mean boring box ticker, then it absolutely won't affect your chances. High stats people with box-checky apps are very common and those people get into medical school in my experience. If by "bland" u mean "has checked no boxes whatsoever" then I absolutely agree, they will have a very hard time getting in anywhere.

The kiss of death is having low stats and little box checking. As awful as it sounds, getting into *a* medical school is pretty formulaic. It's just that most SDN applicants will fall in the average stats average ECs category where everyone looks about the same and things are a lot tougher to predict.
 
Huggy said:
I'd argue that for the average physician in today's time, intelligence (in the traditional sense of the word) is becoming less and less important. Instead, the ability to truly teach a patient how to face what they are up against, listen and understand their personal values and desires, and help them make the best decisions possible to fulfill those desires in the most difficult and vulnerable moments of their lives are the qualities that medical schools are looking for in their future students.

MCAT and GPA can't show that a person is prepared for that responsibility.
Click to expand...
A very nice sentiment and I agree in the abstract but Tbh the majority of people I know IRL getting into top medical schools don't even want to be doctors. They all want to bail and do something else or just land a cush specialty and make as much money as possible and some are literally only going because of their parents. But they are smart people who know how to play the game. I know maybe 1 person at a top 10 school IRL who actually wants to be a doctor and treat patients that need their help. I'm not saying all students at top schools are like this because obviously they produce more physicians than they do business consultants with MD degrees, but the high stats box ticker with good acting skills is more likely to be the "Best Applicant Ever" (TM) than the guy with the average stats who really believes in the calling to be a physician and is excited by the prospect of learning about how to apply science to help people for the rest of their life.

One person I know IRL is absolutely going to be an awesome physician for precisely the qualities you outlined in your statement. Thing is they have a 3.7 and had a really hard time even finding a way to score above 500 on the MCAT so they are in the gray area for MD and DO. Why is that person at risk of slipping through the cracks while my friend who just wants to go work for McKinsey or Biotech after graduating from a top 5 school (they are already in) sits on 8 acceptances????


/vent
 
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Lucca said:
A very nice sentiment and I agree in the abstract but Tbh the majority of people I know IRL getting into top medical schools don't even want to be doctors. They all want to bail and do something else or just land a cush specialty and make as much money as possible and some are literally only going because of their parents. But they are smart people who know how to play the game. I know maybe 1 person at a top 10 school IRL who actually wants to be a doctor and treat patients that need their help. I'm not saying all students at top schools are like this because obviously they produce more physicians than they do business consultants with MD degrees, but the high stats box ticker with good acting skills is more likely to be the "Best Applicant Ever" (TM) than the guy with the average stats who really believes in the calling to be a physician and is excited by the prospect of learning about how to apply science to help people for the rest of their life.

One person I know IRL is absolutely going to be an awesome physician for precisely the qualities you outlined in your statement. Thing is they have a 3.7 and had a really hard time even finding a way to score above 500 on the MCAT so they are in the gray area for MD and DO. Why is that person at risk of slipping through the cracks while my friend who just wants to go work for McKinsey or Biotech after graduating from a top 5 school (they are already in) sits on 8 acceptances????


/vent
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Treating patients that need your help is undoubtedly valuable, and many state schools, mission-driven private schools, and DO schools make the education of patient-focused physicians their top priority. The top research-driven schools will produce some physicians like that. They will also produce physicians who will aid in the treatment of patients indirectly in enormous ways, whether through research breakthroughs, health technology development, public health policy, or administration. The latter type of physicians usually require a great deal of sustained ambition, which will often preclude a simple career nursing patients back to health. Their contributions are invaluable, even if they seem less noble on the surface.
 
Huggy said:
I'd argue that for the average physician in today's time, intelligence (in the traditional sense of the word) is becoming less and less important. Instead, the ability to truly teach a patient how to face what they are up against, listen and understand their personal values and desires, and help them make the best decisions possible to fulfill those desires in the most difficult and vulnerable moments of their lives are the qualities that medical schools are looking for in their future students.

MCAT and GPA can't show that a person is prepared for that responsibility.
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree that intelligence is becoming less important than patient interaction for physicians. There are lots of supporting fields of medicine that do what you have described for the physician. Nursing, physician assistant, nurse practitioner, counselor, psychologist to name a few, have job descriptions similar to what you have described. It seems one should pursue one of these fields if they want to listen, understand and advise people. Some of these supportive fields pay rather well too. IMO a physician is supposed to heal, diagnose, treat, cure. There are many aspects to patient care and some overlap between the job descriptions of the many varied healthcare professions occurs. Having a balance is necessary. Shadowing and clinical exposure are needed to tell you if you like doing what physicians do. That can go both ways - if you find you get too involved in listening to a patient's troubles, and spending too little time diagnosing and treating, maybe being a professional counselor is a better fit for you. This is what having clinical experience before applying to medical school will reveal.
 
Huggy said:
I'd argue that for the average physician in today's time, intelligence (in the traditional sense of the word) is becoming less and less important. Instead, the ability to truly teach a patient how to face what they are up against, listen and understand their personal values and desires, and help them make the best decisions possible to fulfill those desires in the most difficult and vulnerable moments of their lives are the qualities that medical schools are looking for in their future students.

MCAT and GPA can't show that a person is prepared for that responsibility.
Click to expand...

well said. but I decided to respond to this more because of your new profile pic...LOLOLOLOL! dying.
 
Engineering is not a service profession. Bridges and tunnels aren't in pain, don't engage in drug seeking behavior, or have children.


bears1992 said:
Well I mean you can get a masters in engineering at 7 years and never shadow an engineer. I didn't know anybody who I graduated with that shadowed an engineer.
Click to expand...
 
futurephysician57 said:
No clinical work, no volunteering, no research, or shadowing
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caribbean-medical-schools-picture.jpg
 
Lucca said:
Based on my impressions I would qualify what "bland" means. If you mean boring box ticker, then it absolutely won't affect your chances. High stats people with box-checky apps are very common and those people get into medical school in my experience. If by "bland" u mean "has checked no boxes whatsoever" then I absolutely agree, they will have a very hard time getting in anywhere.

The kiss of death is having low stats and little box checking. As awful as it sounds, getting into *a* medical school is pretty formulaic. It's just that most SDN applicants will fall in the average stats average ECs category where everyone looks about the same and things are a lot tougher to predict.
Click to expand...

I think there's different kinds of "box checking." Someone can be a "box checker" but take one of their boxes further through extraordinary dedication to that activity, having a meaningful leadership role, etc. Something that actually connects that activity to skills a med school would want in their class. Whether that's actually real in most cases, or just how people are able to put spin on things is a separate question. Someone who is a box-checker and make it very clear on their resume that they just checked boxes would have a tougher time, especially at top schools.
 
Goro said:
Engineering is not a service profession. Bridges and tunnels aren't in pain, don't engage in drug seeking behavior, or have children.
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Im not trying to say those professions are related, I'm just saying that most professions don't require shadowing before spending 7 years in school committing to them.
 
You are 100% correct. My point is that Medicine is the odd duck because it is a service profession.

bears1992 said:
Im not trying to say those professions are related, I'm just saying that most professions don't require shadowing before spending 7 years in school committing to them.
Click to expand...
 
Lucca said:
A very nice sentiment and I agree in the abstract but Tbh the majority of people I know IRL getting into top medical schools don't even want to be doctors. They all want to bail and do something else or just land a cush specialty and make as much money as possible and some are literally only going because of their parents. But they are smart people who know how to play the game. I know maybe 1 person at a top 10 school IRL who actually wants to be a doctor and treat patients that need their help. I'm not saying all students at top schools are like this because obviously they produce more physicians than they do business consultants with MD degrees, but the high stats box ticker with good acting skills is more likely to be the "Best Applicant Ever" (TM) than the guy with the average stats who really believes in the calling to be a physician and is excited by the prospect of learning about how to apply science to help people for the rest of their life.

One person I know IRL is absolutely going to be an awesome physician for precisely the qualities you outlined in your statement. Thing is they have a 3.7 and had a really hard time even finding a way to score above 500 on the MCAT so they are in the gray area for MD and DO. Why is that person at risk of slipping through the cracks while my friend who just wants to go work for McKinsey or Biotech after graduating from a top 5 school (they are already in) sits on 8 acceptances????


/vent
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While there's certainly a trend of alternative career focus at top schools, I'd say you're really exaggerating the number of people who fit that mold. Maybe 25% of my class, at most, were either business or cush-specialty focused.

It's institution dependent tho, I hear Penn puts out way more consultants.
 
Average/below average stats. Below average extracurricular. Do you have a chance? Who knows. Depends on a lot more than just this. But if you're like me (white, male, no significant disadvantage or interesting story) then I'd say a very low chance. If you're an African American female or grew up with a broken family and worked through high school/college and was the first to go to college in their family, you have a very good chance.
 
KoalaT said:
Average/below average stats. Below average extracurricular. Do you have a chance? Who knows. Depends on a lot more than just this. But if you're like me (white, male, no significant disadvantage or interesting story) then I'd say a very low chance. If you're an African American female or grew up with a broken family and worked through high school/college and was the first to go to college in their family, you have a very good chance.
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I feel like you gotta have ECs regardless but idk
 
Huggy said:
I'd argue that for the average physician in today's time, intelligence (in the traditional sense of the word) is becoming less and less important. Instead, the ability to truly teach a patient how to face what they are up against, listen and understand their personal values and desires, and help them make the best decisions possible to fulfill those desires in the most difficult and vulnerable moments of their lives are the qualities that medical schools are looking for in their future students.

MCAT and GPA can't show that a person is prepared for that responsibility.
Click to expand...
omg your picture is amazing.
 
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