What are my chances? (Switching from MD/DO to PA)

[mariaalej09]

Hey guys!

I am new to this thread and I really want to know what my chances are before making a drastic decision. I recently was accepted to an MD program and waitlisted at a DO program. I currently work as an ED Scribe and have realized that maybe MD/DO is not for me. I have researched PA programs and have become very interested in the idea. I am trying to learn as much as possible about the application process to determine what my chances would be. Here's a quick summary of what I have done:

MD shadowing: 50 hours
Volunteer at Children's Hospital: 100 hours
Volunteer at non-profit clinic: 250 hours
Vice President of a club: 80 hours
Research Assistant (paid)(project 1): 280 hours
Research Assistant (paid)(project 2): 1250 hours (3 years)
Mentor (paid): 600 hours (3 years)

ED Scribe: 2080 hours (1 year full-time and currently employed here)
Algebra Tutor: ~20 hours (still employed here)

3.71 science gpa
3.76 non-science gpa

GRE: still haven't taken

I know some schools do not consider scribing a DIRECT patient experience, so I am considering getting my CNA license and volunteering ~2 nights/week at the non-profit clinic. Do you think this is necessary? Also, the hospital where I work has PAs that use scribes and I could ask to be scheduled with them more. Assuming I do well on the GRE, what are my chances looking like right now? In my personal statement I would write about my reasons for wanting to join the medical field and my reasons for applying to PA. I would include that I had an acceptance and decided that being a PA aligned better with my career and personal goals (family time, and really like the idea of switching specialities).

Thanks for your help! And sorry for the super long post.

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[Makati2008]

Hey guys!

I am new to this thread and I really want to know what my chances are before making a drastic decision. I recently was accepted to an MD program and waitlisted at a DO program. I currently work as an ED Scribe and have realized that maybe MD/DO is not for me. I have researched PA programs and have become very interested in the idea. I am trying to learn as much as possible about the application process to determine what my chances would be. Here's a quick summary of what I have done:

MD shadowing: 50 hours
Volunteer at Children's Hospital: 100 hours
Volunteer at non-profit clinic: 250 hours
Vice President of a club: 80 hours
Research Assistant (paid)(project 1): 280 hours
Research Assistant (paid)(project 2): 1250 hours (3 years)
Mentor (paid): 600 hours (3 years)

ED Scribe: 2080 hours (1 year full-time and currently employed here)
Algebra Tutor: ~20 hours (still employed here)

3.71 science gpa
3.76 non-science gpa

GRE: still haven't taken

I know some schools do not consider scribing a DIRECT patient experience, so I am considering getting my CNA license and volunteering ~2 nights/week at the non-profit clinic. Do you think this is necessary? Also, the hospital where I work has PAs that use scribes and I could ask to be scheduled with them more. Assuming I do well on the GRE, what are my chances looking like right now? In my personal statement I would write about my reasons for wanting to join the medical field and my reasons for applying to PA. I would include that I had an acceptance and decided that being a PA aligned better with my career and personal goals (family time, and really like the idea of switching specialities).

Thanks for your help! And sorry for the super long post.

Why would you change after acceptance into school???

 

[princekc]

Go MD. Like variety? EM provides that opportunity.

 

[mariaalej09]

I don't like EM because I like making connections with my patients. I like the idea of being the person that they see regularly and actually knowing about them. I started having doubts and thinking about PA school before my acceptance. There are a lot of things that made me change my mind, and I could go on and on. But mostly it is that I see how MD/DOs live and they don't have the balance in their lives that I am looking for. I am in a very serious relationship and I do not want to wait 7+ years to start my life and my family. Plenty of people say there is no reason that I can't do both but I do not want to start my marriage and never be able to see my significant other. Then when I have kids, I do not want to just have them and never see them which would be the sad reality if I were still in med school or even a resident. PA school offers the balance between career and family that I am looking for. I know a lot of people think I am crazy but I was more asking what my chances of getting into PA school are.

 

[princekc]

Without further details. I repeat, go MD. Your stats are competitive for PA school, no doubt. However, with an MD acceptance in hand & no PA school acceptance. Then, why take the risk. You'll have more control over your work schedule as an MD. Good luck. Princekc, MPA, PA-C, MD applicant.

 

[primadonna22274]

Please take the acceptance and go to med school. Another PA-C, almost DO.
Are you male or female? Can you
accept being a dependent practitioner the rest of your career? Are you willing to accept that no matter how long or where you practice or how much you know you will NEVER have independence? Autonomy--yes, but that wears thin when your attending doc has been out of high school for less time than you've been practicing.
I just found out they another of my former PA students has been accepted to med school. She has the fire in the belly, the insatiable thirst for knowledge and the desire to be the very best advocate she can be for her patients. She is PASSIONATE about medicine.
Now, if you aren't passionate, there is an argument for sticking with PA. But you will probably find yourself frustrated by your limitations.

 

[didymus]

All of the reasons you have for wanting to be a PA are pragmatic, reasonable, and legitimate. They happen to be some of the same reasons I chose not to apply to med school this cycle, and apply to PA school instead. Your stats are excellent for PA school, and you should have no trouble getting an acceptance if you apply intelligently.

As you begin applying, it's important to accept the reality that it is much more difficult to get into PA school than medical school these days (my state PA program only accepted 3% of applicants last cycle, whereas 47% of in-state applicants matriculated at the medical school). Again, your stats are excellent, so what you really need to get are solid ***clinical*** LOR's (no professors, no research mentors, etc.--clinical only); get one or two PA letters, and one to two MD/DO letters that speak directly about you in a clinical setting. Finally, work on your narrative about "why PA." Unfortunately, the pragmatism won't get you any acceptances. You need to be knowledgeable about the PA profession. All the things @primadonna22274 highlighted as downfalls of the profession you need to speak of as strengths, and really convey a commitment to being a physician assistant. I personally believe turning down an MD acceptance will be very compelling.

From my standpoint, not every career path has to be filled with "passion." There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a rational and pragmatic career choice, and, besides nothing being inherently wrong with that approach, it shows wisdom, maturity, self-awareness, and thoughtfulness.

Being a PA is not to be "less than" a physician. It is to be a collaborator. One has to have the capacity in life for contentment, for sure, and I think for those of us who can live a content life, knowing we are still putting our hands to meaningful work, there is no reason to look for something greater we could, conceivably, be doing with our careers.

Btw, as a PA you will also have considerably less debt, far more time in your profession making a solid salary ($82,000 average right out of school in my home state), working less hours (clocking in later in the day, clocking out earlier in the evening), taking less call, having less responsibility--which can be a serious advantage for the person who doesn't *have* to be in control all the time to be satisfied, and so on. The benefits these days to being a PA seem to outweigh the negatives, and every physician I have spoken with about it sing the praises of PA's, PA education, and the PA lifestyle.

You have made the right decision and you should easily get an acceptance.

 

[Makati2008]

Please take the acceptance and go to med school. Another PA-C, almost DO.
Are you male or female? Can you
accept being a dependent practitioner the rest of your career? Are you willing to accept that no matter how long or where you practice or how much you know you will NEVER have independence? Autonomy--yes, but that wears thin when your attending doc has been out of high school for less time than you've been practicing.
I just found out they another of my former PA students has been accepted to med school. She has the fire in the belly, the insatiable thirst for knowledge and the desire to be the very best advocate she can be for her patients. She is PASSIONATE about medicine.
Now, if you aren't passionate, there is an argument for sticking with PA. But you will probably find yourself frustrated by your limitations.

I agree with everything in this post. The hardest part of medical school is getting in. Also basing a life long decision on a "serious relationship" could as prove to be a detriment since so many relationships fail unfortunately.

Even if the other person was my spouse and I wanted to be a doctor I would find a way to work it out because in the end you will be better off financially as well as respect wise and be a much better provider for your family.

Also I started PA school in my 20s(like 21ish) and here I am in my 30s back in school because like Prima said I didn't want to deal with a 32yo attending dissecting my every move when I am 55yo.

Lastly you talk about all of this free time you will have as a PA, it's possible but for the most part unlikely. PAs work the holidays,nights,weekends that docs want off(as much as I hate to say it you are there to help the doc and most times not seen as an equal.)

 

[Makati2008]

All of the reasons you have for wanting to be a PA are pragmatic, reasonable, and legitimate. They happen to be some of the same reasons I chose not to apply to med school this cycle, and apply to PA school instead. Your stats are excellent for PA school, and you should have no trouble getting an acceptance if you apply intelligently.

As you begin applying, it's important to accept the reality that it is much more difficult to get into PA school than medical school these days (my state PA program only accepted 3% of applicants last cycle, whereas 47% of in-state applicants matriculated at the medical school). Again, your stats are excellent, so what you really need to get are solid ***clinical*** LOR's (no professors, no research mentors, etc.--clinical only); get one or two PA letters, and one to two MD/DO letters that speak directly about you in a clinical setting. Finally, work on your narrative about "why PA." Unfortunately, the pragmatism won't get you any acceptances. You need to be knowledgeable about the PA profession. All the things @primadonna22274 highlighted as downfalls of the profession you need to speak of as strengths, and really convey a commitment to being a physician assistant. I personally believe turning down an MD acceptance will be very compelling.

From my standpoint, not every career path has to be filled with "passion." There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a rational and pragmatic career choice, and, besides nothing being inherently wrong with that approach, it shows wisdom, maturity, self-awareness, and thoughtfulness.

Being a PA is not to be "less than" a physician. It is to be a collaborator. One has to have the capacity in life for contentment, for sure, and I think for those of us who can live a content life, knowing we are still putting our hands to meaningful work, there is no reason to look for something greater we could, conceivably, be doing with our careers.

Btw, as a PA you will also have considerably less debt, far more time in your profession making a solid salary ($82,000 average right out of school in my home state), working less hours (clocking in later in the day, clocking out earlier in the evening), taking less call, having less responsibility--which can be a serious advantage for the person who doesn't *have* to be in control all the time to be satisfied, and so on. The benefits these days to being a PA seem to outweigh the negatives, and every physician I have spoken with about it sing the praises of PA's, PA education, and the PA lifestyle.

You have made the right decision and you should easily get an acceptance.

I mean no disrespect but aren't you a Pre-PA currently?

 

[primadonna22274]

Um NO, Makati graduates med school this year and will be starting an EM residency.

 

[primadonna22274]

Oops sorry wrong reply lol

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Lastly you talk about all of this free time you will have as a PA, it's possible but for the most part unlikely. PAs work the holidays,nights,weekends that docs want off(as much as I hate to say it you are there to help the doc and most times not seen as an equal.)

Bingo! Thanks for pointing that out... All the PAs I know complain about that part of their job all the time.

 

[didymus]

I mean no disrespect but aren't you a Pre-PA currently?

I am personally pre-PA. However, my background is in executive healthcare leadership and administration. I have been the director of a clinic that employed MD/DO, NP and PA as providers. I am also married to a family physician. My comments are not merely speculative or conjecture--they are informed, or I wouldn't offer feedback.

No offense taken.

 

[didymus]

Lastly you talk about all of this free time you will have as a PA, it's possible but for the most part unlikely. PAs work the holidays,nights,weekends that docs want off(as much as I hate to say it you are there to help the doc and most times not seen as an equal.)

I think this is highly site-contingent. In my experience, the physicians were consistently putting in >55 hour weeks at my clinic (and those around the city), and the PA's were never working >40-hour weeks. The docs worked weekends and holidays charting and signing off on midlevels' charts, doing hospital rounds, etc.. The PA's weren't regularly staying late or picking up shifts the docs just didn't want to work; in a health system, that is definitely not how it works. In the modern team-based healthcare delivery model, there is no pecking order in which doctors are on the top and dictate working hours or conditions for the midlevels, getting all kinds of concessions because they are physicians. My experience is that physicians actually complain about how little autonomy they have, and, when they aren't around, complain about how good the midlevels have it.

 

[Makati2008]

I am personally pre-PA. However, my background is in executive healthcare leadership and administration. I have been the director of a clinic that employed MD/DO, NP and PA as providers. I am also married to a family physician. My comments are not merely speculative or conjecture--they are informed, or I wouldn't offer feedback.

No offense taken.

I think some of it is speculative since although you worked with us but aren't one of us quite yet. Once you are truly practicing as a PA(and experiencing the issues first hand and not seeing them from the outside) then I think you would be able to speak with more of a definitive tone.

Just my opinion and I think it's only fair to people such as the poster to quit making being a PA seem like all rainbows and sunshine.(I know being a Physician isn't either but that can be seen in pre-osteo,allo, and the Physician forums).

Also the majority of docs that say they would have been PAs, I call bs. If they could experience the problems of no longer being an independent provider and the " mother/father may I" game they would change tunes.

Food for thought- I was making 180osh (which is an anomaly) on average, had tons of autonomy but went back to medical school. Why would I do such a thing? It was because of the things I mentioned and also seeing first hand if it was a PA vs Physician mentality for jobs guess who won?(saw all the midlevels at a site I used to work at prn told we are going all Physician)

 

[Makati2008]

I think this is highly site-contingent. In my experience, the physicians were consistently putting in >55 hour weeks at my clinic (and those around the city), and the PA's were never working >40-hour weeks. The docs worked weekends and holidays charting and signing off on midlevels' charts, doing hospital rounds, etc.. The PA's weren't regularly staying late or picking up shifts the docs just didn't want to work; in a health system, that is definitely not how it works. In the modern team-based healthcare delivery model, there is no pecking order in which doctors are on the top and dictate working hours or conditions for the midlevels, getting all kinds of concessions because they are physicians. My experience is that physicians actually complain about how little autonomy they have, and, when they aren't around, complain about how good the midlevels have it.

We will just disagree because I have worked in a few healthcare systems and it definitely worked in that format(the doctors work 32-36hrs a week with 4hrs for administrative duties and this was FM or time was integrated for charts to be done by closing of clinic.) If those docs were working 55hrs+ they would definitely be quitting lol. Why work resident hours as an Attending?

Heck even as a med student it was obvious the midlevels would be scutted out to see all of the admitted patients and order basically the same tests over and over and over. The docs would just literally go to the hospital and physically co- sign things and only see the complex admitted patients the midlevels had problems with and this all usually lasted maybe 1-1.5 hrs if that.

Also the docs are dictating THEIR conditions to work at a facility not that of a midlevels. Someone has to close those gaps.....

Also from an EM standpoint the docs work much less and make much more(over double) the midlevels.

I'll tell you what's funny though if you could only imagine how many old colleagues as well as classmates call me about going back to school to be a Physician you would be shocked.

 

[didymus]

I think some of it is speculative since although you worked with us but aren't one of us quite yet. Once you are truly practicing as a PA(and experiencing the issues first hand and not seeing them from the outside) then I think you would be able to speak with more of a definitive tone.

Maybe I could have worded my post better: My perspective is not purely speculative. It is true that I am not a PA or a physician, but I have had close, working proximity to both (as well as NP's, RN's, MA's, phlebotomists, pharmacists, dentists, hygienists, and so on), so my perspective is informed, though it may not be exact.

Just my opinion and I think it's only fair to people such as the poster to quit making being a PA seem like all rainbows and sunshine.(I know being a Physician isn't either but that can be seen in pre-osteo,allo, and the Physician forums).

I do not think it is all gravy. To be fair, anyone who thinks any career path is as you described, they deserve all the dashed hopes and dreams that are coming their way. That said (and everyone on SDN should know how careful I am to give advice always with the caveat of 'n=1'), being a PA is very legit. Among all careers, it has some of the highest job satisfaction numbers, and puts being a physician to shame in the category. It is important for people to be aware of how low physician satisfaction numbers are, and how few (statistically speaking) would choose medicine again. All the data are out there.

Also the majority of docs that say they would have been PAs, I call bs. If they could experience the problems of no longer being an independent provider and the " mother/father may I" game they would change tunes.

I don't know if you are an attending or not, but I call B.S. on you calling B.S. You use language that is classic grass-is-greener talk. If you look again at my points, I suggested that for those who have no problem being content in life will have no problem being a PA. Certainly there are those who must be running the show, and take issue with being told what to do/not being the expert/not being in charge, and so on. Not everyone cares that much. I have been the one in charge, and it wasn't very fun.

It is quite a freeing idea to me to let the biggest decisions fall to someone else; let that person lose sleep over it, I'm headed to my son's baseball game, then turning in early. Enjoy your independence as a physician. It isn't worth 4 more years of medical school, three more years (minimum) of residency, $200,000 more debt from school, and 7 years of lost full-potential income, to have independence, final say-so, or whatever else it is that physicians get over and above PA's--even the extra income (which is always on the chopping block) doesn't make it worth it to *me* (I speak only for myself).

The reality is, PA's can open and run private clinics that employ physicians. This is my plan for after PA school. Though I will have a large upfront investment, the figures show that I can be banking $250,000 salary for myself after paying physicians a little above market value, covering facilities, and so on. For a 26-month training program, that will only run me ~$30,000 tuition, I can live with that.

Food for thought- I was making 180osh (which is an anomaly) on average, had tons of autonomy but went back to medical school. Why would I do such a thing? It was because of the things I mentioned and also seeing first hand if it was a PA vs Physician mentality for jobs guess who won?(saw all the midlevels at a site I used to work at prn told we are going all Physician)

You are crazy to give that up because you don't like thirtysomethings calling the shots. I am going to emphasize my past healthcare administration experience here again to give you some perspective: As a physician, you won't be calling the shots. There will always be youngin's telling you how things are going to run. Welcome to 21st century healthcare delivery. And it isn't only healthcare providers who have to contend with punk kids telling them what to do. In every major job sector it is this way. My father is a senior computer analyst with 35 years experience. His VP is 37-years-old with an MBA and not a lick of IT experience. Guess who calls the shots. The VP.

If you go work for a hospital or large health system, as a physician you will absolutely, unequivocally, not call the shots re: how the practice is run and the delivery of care is dictated. ACO's are going to eat you alive when you get into practice. You call b.s. on docs who say PA's have a cush life...brother, they say that because the talk of physician independence and leadership is an illusion. You will, for the rest of your days (especially if you train in emergency medicine or some other hospital-based specialty, such as ICU) be answering to young executives, protocols handed down by the BOD, the federal government, and department administrators who are--increasingly so--RN's with MHA's.

**As an example, there was a physician at my clinic, who had been practicing for over 25 years, who was giving out Tylenol #3's to a particular patient for months, when we have a policy in place to not prescribe controlled substances. I did not ask for this doc's medical opinion, or extensive expertise on this issue, I just told him he could not, under any circumstances, give that patient--or any other patient--such medications ever again. I wasn't a dick about it, but that was the decision. It was protocol, and there was not going to be a lively debate about it. He complied.

I fear for you and for all your colleagues who are pissed about not having final and ultimate authority, and are going to leave their careers to train to become physicians. All of you are going to blow $200K and 7 years of extra training to come out not having final and ultimate authority.

 

[primadonna22274]

Didymus, you are entitled to feel the way you do and we are entitled to our own well-informed (by many years of direct experience!) strongly-held convictions about the difference in PA vs. physician roles and what makes US satisfied.
Being a physician is more important to me than having children. It always has been. I know it's not for everyone but for me it is an ultimate and very personal truth. Debt doesn't matter (I'm getting it paid back anyway, and so is Makati). The time invested is time worth investing to me. I'm not sure the extra 40 lbs is worth it lol but down 15 from M2 so it's looking up.
Our point is similar to yours: it really must be an INDIVIDUAL decision whether to choose to be a PA or a physician. We share our experiences and frustrations with others to stimulate their own thoughts. We all have free will--thank goodness--but in the end a huge part of the decision has to do with personality and fit. I am not cut out to be beta. I need to be the physician. I have no wish to own a clinic or employ others to do the work that I know I do better. I'm curious if your wife would choose to be a PA over her role as a physician?

 

[Makati2008]

At your final statement I am Lol. There is no true "top dog" in medicine unless you count the government and I knew I wouldn't have "final authority" before I left my old job to become a doctor. Everyone has a boss. Also you failed to know that my 200k is wiped clean and I am going back to the facility I left .

I will agree that those numbers for Physician satisfaction are notoriously low but I wonder if you take into account that the majority of those doctors are the group that are either-1.)Headed out of the door for retirement and have seen their reimbursements go lower and lower 2.)Went solely into the field for money(and we BOTH know there are many other fields that are more lucrative than medicine). 3.)Would be unhappy in any field they picked.

Physicians are normally always looking for 'more' on average which I also plays into the negativity here. One doc I worked with let it slip out he was bringing home 500k(ENT) but was still complaining about his reimbursements were lower than 10 years ago. This doc has no debts, no kids, vacations all over the world and his wife is bring home 200k as well as a CEO in a different sector. He would complain daily about how there was no money left in medicine and I think If you go in with that mindset you are setting yourself up for failure. Another I know works 10 months a year with an estate that would make many of his colleagues jealous and he is just as bad.

Lastly, don't fear for me because I am happy(being a Doc was/is a lifelong dream and life caused me to go to PA school first) and couldn't imagine going back to being a PA(which is no disrespect to no pre-PA/PA/NP). Furthermore for me, it was why be content with training that comes with a glass ceiling and unfortunately can be quite lacking at times when you can learn the full spectrum of medicine as well as have respect from the medical community and your patients. If money was my sole driver I would have stayed where I was and kept investing. For some of us its a mix that you honestly won't understand unless you walked the path that we have walked. I know the OP has already made her mind up but I hope she considers this decision very hard because to put yourself through the rigors of taking the MCAT, upper level courses, and then dropping it all so abruptly seems like fear of the unknown and she is taking the "easy" way out.

 

[didymus]

Didymus, you are entitled to feel the way you do and we are entitled to our own well-informed (by many years of direct experience!) strongly-held convictions about the difference in PA vs. physician roles and what makes US satisfied...

I respect and value your perspective, prima. I agree with you that it is an individual decision. That said, we were all offering our experiences and opinions (mine is well-informed by years of experience as well, observing and managing a large healthcare team, while also being married to a physician) to help direct OP. I was just contributing to the pool of advice with my personal perspective and experiences. I wasn't saying they were gospel or anything; but I was offering them as a counterpoint to those who were criticizing OP's desire to become a PA, trying to convince her to go to medical school lest she regret it forever.

Being a physician is more important to me than having children. It always has been. I know it's not for everyone but for me it is an ultimate and very personal truth. Debt doesn't matter (I'm getting it paid back anyway, and so is Makati). The time invested is time worth investing to me. I'm not sure the extra 40 lbs is worth it lol but down 15 from M2 so it's looking up.

I think this is highly unusual, and, therefore, not easily applicable to the majority of people. Most people (statistically) want to have a family. For something to be prohibitive to this end would be an important consideration for the vast majority of the population. Moreover, if your switching from PA-C to D.O. was possible, even if in part, by you being unconcerned with having children, accumulating substantial financial debt, and dedicating yourself to long and onerous training, then your perspective is an outlier.

My advice was geared more towards the common experience of the general population where all of these things that don't matter to you matter to us. For someone who doesn't want a mountain of debt, would like to have a family and prioritize time with them, and would not prefer training for 7+ years, becoming a PA is the pragmatic, reasonable, and logical choice.

Our point is similar to yours: it really must be an INDIVIDUAL decision whether to choose to be a PA or a physician. We share our experiences and frustrations with others to stimulate their own thoughts. We all have free will--thank goodness--but in the end a huge part of the decision has to do with personality and fit. I am not cut out to be beta. I need to be the physician. I have no wish to own a clinic or employ others to do the work that I know I do better.

Each person has to decide for him or herself, as you have rightly concluded. I am more than fine being "beta" in my job; I honestly couldn't care less. I will still be enabled by my training to interact meaningfully with patients, provide quality care, and collaborate intelligently on a team. Physicians have to do this as well, and, as I made clear above, from my experience, physicians have people to answer to, just as PA's do; being a physician doesn't lift that person above the bureaucracy. In many places, it is actually much more cumbersome for doctors than it is for other providers. A PA may be doomed to answering to young resident-physicians forever, while the physicians will be doomed to answer to young VP's forever. Therefore, being on the right team is critical for both docs and PA's. I personally plan to open my own clinic, but if for some reason that doesn't happen, and I find myself on a team with egotistical, self-absorbed, "alpha" gunner docs, then I will happily see myself out of that setting, and find one with humble providers who actively value their team.

I'm curious if your wife would choose to be a PA over her role as a physician?

She told me if she were in my position when the decision had to be made, she would choose PA in an instant. She was a traditional student, and finished med school and residency before we met. As a matter of fact, every physician I have spoken with about my decision said they would make the same one if they were in my shoes. All of them finished as traditional students and said they couldn't imagine going through the process as a 30-yr. old with a young family. Not only that, but it was a PG-3 FM resident, who is married to a PG-3 FM resident, who actually talked me out of going to medical school in the first place. He was the one who suggested I become a PA, and told me he wishes that was what he had chosen.

 

[primadonna22274]

Fair enough. My experience may not be generalizable but it is my experience. I'm the oldest of 7 and half-raised my younger sibs so I got that out of my system by the time I was 19 lol.

 

[didymus]

At your final statement I am Lol. There is no true "top dog" in medicine unless you count the government and I knew I wouldn't have "final authority" before I left my old job to become a doctor. Everyone has a boss. Also you failed to know that my 200k is wiped clean and I am going back to the facility I left .

Right, but you said your decision was made in part because of your frustration with being a PA and having to answer to young doctors with less experience than yourself. You specifically pointed that out as a reason you changed. As a balance to that, I pointed out that the answering to people doesn't end with being a doctor. As a physician you will have to answer to administrators in your own clinical setting. I'm not just taking about the Government here--I am saying that there will be young VP's with no clinical healthcare experience telling you what you can and cannot do in your practice of medicine. I was one of those administrations, and gave an example of me informing a physician with decades of experience what he could not do with his patients. Let that sink in. I'm only 30-yrs. old. I don't have a clinical background. He had to comply with my directives despite all his medical training and knowledge. You will have to do the same. If you want to work in a hospital setting, you have to come to terms with answering to floor managers who will likely be BSN/MHA. You will be answering to nurses as a physician in some cases. That's an important aspect of the current state of healthcare in this country that anyone going into medical training needs to come to terms with. The days of the autonomous physician are over.

I will agree that those numbers for Physician satisfaction are notoriously low but I wonder if you take into account that the majority of those doctors are the group that are either-1.) Headed out of the door for retirement and have seen their reimbursements go lower and lower 2.)Went solely into the field for money (and we BOTH know there are many other fields that are more lucrative than medicine). 3.)Would be unhappy in any field they picked.

You actually don't know this for a fact at all. Your 3 points here are purely conjecture, and quite disingenuous. You can actually look up the statistics on physician satisfaction, and see the reasons listed (there are a number of surveys out there). Some reasons include (in no particular order) a) Decreasing reimbursement, b) Decreasing autonomy, c) Increasing regulations and d) superfluous work that has little-to-nothing to do with patient care.

Physicians are normally always looking for 'more' on average which I also plays into the negativity here. One doc I worked with let it slip out he was bringing home 500k(ENT) but was still complaining about his reimbursements were lower than 10 years ago. This doc has no debts, no kids, vacations all over the world and his wife is bring home 200k as well as a CEO in a different sector. He would complain daily about how there was no money left in medicine and I think If you go in with that mindset you are setting yourself up for failure. Another I know works 10 months a year with an estate that would make many of his colleagues jealous and he is just as bad.

Again, I don't think this is representative. Ask primary care doctors why they are so dissatisfied.

Lastly, don't fear for me because I am happy(being a Doc was/is a lifelong dream and life caused me to go to PA school first) and couldn't imagine going back to being a PA(which is no disrespect to no pre-PA/PA/NP). Furthermore for me, it was why be content with training that comes with a glass ceiling and unfortunately can be quite lacking at times when you can learn the full spectrum of medicine as well as have respect from the medical community and your patients. If money was my sole driver I would have stayed where I was and kept investing. For some of us its a mix that you honestly won't understand unless you walked the path that we have walked. I know the OP has already made her mind up but I hope she considers this decision very hard because to put yourself through the rigors of taking the MCAT, upper level courses, and then dropping it all so abruptly seems like fear of the unknown and she is taking the "easy" way out.

Well, getting into PA school is more difficult on average than getting into medical school. As I pointed out before, my state medical school (according to MSAR) had a 47% matriculation of in-state applicants last cycle, whereas the PA school matriculated 3% total. It may be a shorter training program, but it isn't the easy way out as far as getting in. Plus, I think more and more people are seeing how truly onerous medical training is, and how prohibitive to just living a healthy and happy life it can be. Call that the "easy way out," or call it as I do a wise decision based upon a rational assessment of what a person values in life.

You and @primadonna22274 can't imagine being PA's forever. That's fine. You both talk about the limitations of the profession, and how being a physician provides more professional opportunities that you both value and desire. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I wish you both the best.

 

[Beth_W737]

No offense but for someone who keeps stressing n=1 you seem determined to push that PA is the best and being in the field working alongside is not the same thing, when I look back at when I was a premed I had no clue what it was really like despite all my experience.

 

[didymus]

No offense but for someone who keeps stressing n=1 you seem determined to push that PA is the best and being in the field working alongside is not the same thing, when I look back at when I was a premed I had no clue what it was really like despite all my experience.

Read my posts carefully. I consistently and carefully word them in such a way as to emphasize things like my personal experience, my opinion, etc. I also stress that people have shared things with me that have informed my perspective, but that doesn't invalidate why @primadonna22274 or @Makati2008 have chosen to do what they do. I happen to disagree with some of the objections to becoming a PA they have presented, and I don't see anything problematic about that when having a discussion.

Also, there are certain components or qualities of physician training and PA training, and the respective practices of each, that one can assess objectively to determine which will better position that individual to achieve his or her life's goals, or cultivate their values. That's what I did. It just so happens that in this instance the OP and I had similar considerations and experiences, so I advocated more strongly for PA since it was the path that appeared to coincide best with what she communicated.

For the record, I would not recommend PA for everyone. A traditional student who is not really thinking about starting a family just yet, strongly desires to be a team leader, is eager to have the greatest responsibility over the outcomes of their patients, and has a mind that is only satisfied when investigating complex medical cases, is someone I would strongly encourage to pursue MD/DO. I know a couple people like this, and I encourage them to stay the course and become physicians, because they will likely be unhappy being a PA (and would hate being an NP).

 

[Makati2008]

to the post above:
1.) You speak as though I haven't had an executive director that was younger than me. Already do and I had to stop myself from typing her name lol. Also I have had to deal with other Physicians/RNs(insurance based folks dictating care via phone) when wanting to admit patients, get equipment for patients etc... Also following EBM guidelines might differ from what I want to do but it's best for the patient.

That stuff doesn't bother me too bad it's more so when I as the PA try to transfer patients the doctors don't want to speak to a PA(and I almost had a bad ob outcome due to it) if there is a procedure that is pretty cool and I want to do and there is a doc there it's taken from me because admin feels more comfortable with a Doc doing it(not my last job but early in my career), patients say I don't want a PA(that is their right) and like I have mentioned before being a doctor was a lifelong dream.

2.)I guess you can say PA school is "hard" to get into. It wasn't for me but that was before everyone thought PA was such a great profession.

3.) Your opinion is very welcome here although I disagree with you. I will just hope you will quit trying to advise impressionable students with information that can come off as definitive when you haven't even been a PA-S yet. You might be informed but I can tell you it's different to live it

 

[primadonna22274]

He did answer in his reply to me--that she would choose to be a PA.
I suppose those people exist but I've only met 1-2 physicians in 15 years that say they would rather have been a PA. Most of them tell me they would have done anything else but medicine lol.

 

[Makati2008]

He did answer in his reply to me--that she would choose to be a PA.
I suppose those people exist but I've only met 1-2 physicians in 15 years that say they would rather have been a PA. Most of them tell me they would have done anything else but medicine lol.

Just saw it and updated my post oops lol. I know of several as well most say dentistry, engineering etc..

 

[didymus]

to the post above:
1.) You speak as though I haven't had an executive director that was younger than me.

I don't know you. I wouldn't speak of you as though you have or haven't experienced anything. My comments were directed at your earlier post when you said one reason you chose to go to medical school is because you were tired of having to defer to young doctors--you didn't like having to get approval from someone younger and less experienced. My argument was that that doesn't end with different initials after your name. Since you acknowledge this fact, I'm not sure why you made that point originally.

...if there is a procedure that is pretty cool and I want to do and there is a doc there it's taken from me because admin feels more comfortable with a Doc doing it(not my last job but early in my career), patients say I don't want a PA(that is their right)...

No question all these things happen regularly, and so everyone going PA needs to understand this and be able to accept the limitations that come with the profession.

and like I have mentioned before being a doctor was a lifelong dream.

I think that's great. I never tried to invalidate this.

3.) Your opinion is very welcome here although I disagree with you. I will just hope you will quit trying to advise impressionable students with information that can come off as definitive when you haven't even been a PA-S yet. You might be informed but I can tell you it's different to live it.

I can advise whomever I want. SDN isn't anything if not people from different backgrounds offering advice to impressionable students at many levels. I could just as easily criticize you for giving bad advice to impressionable students because you personally were dissatisfied with being a PA, rather than offering objective feedback to someone based upon what they clearly stated were their ideals and goals. Not being a PA myself does not mean I do not know what the profession entails. I'm not advising someone by saying things like, "Oh, you'll love being a PA...the profession is so fun...being a PA-S looks like this and that...etc". I'm giving advice on those things I have actually am knowledgeable about.

Also you never a answered the question- would you wife rather have been a PA or ?

Yes I did. She would have if she had to make the decision today, and she had to consider our young family, age, and so on.

 

[didymus]

I've only met 1-2 physicians in 15 years that say they would rather have been a PA. Most of them tell me they would have done anything else but medicine lol.

I wonder if some of these opinions from attendings are dependent upon where in the country they practice. My state is incredibly PA-friendly. I know that being a PA isn't as great everywhere in the country as it is in the Midwest (and where I live particularly). Perhaps docs on the coasts would never consider having ever been a PA because the salaries and autonomy are considerably less there than other places.

 

[Makati2008]

I don't know you. I wouldn't speak of you as though you have or haven't experienced anything. My comments were directed at your earlier post when you said one reason you chose to go to medical school is because you were tired of having to defer to young doctors--you didn't like having to get approval from someone younger and less experienced. My argument was that that doesn't end with different initials after your name. Since you acknowledge this fact, I'm not sure why you made that point originally.




No question all these things happen regularly, and so everyone going PA needs to understand this and be able to accept the limitations that come with the profession.



I think that's great. I never tried to invalidate this.



I can advise whomever I want. SDN isn't anything if not people from different backgrounds offering advice to impressionable students at many levels. I could just as easily criticize you for giving bad advice to impressionable students because you personally were dissatisfied with being a PA, rather than offering objective feedback to someone based upon what they clearly stated were their ideals and goals. Not being a PA myself does not mean I do not know what the profession entails. I'm not advising someone by saying things like, "Oh, you'll love being a PA...the profession is so fun...being a PA-S looks like this and that...etc". I'm giving advice on those things I have actually am knowledgeable about.



Yes I did. She would have if she had to make the decision today, and she had to consider our young family, age, and so on.

Lol. Your welcome to your opinions as mentioned earlier and I'll leave it at that. Goodbye.

 

[JoBreeze]

He's primarily trying to convince himself by posting these things. It took him 4 sentences to make that obvious.

 

[didymus]

He's primarily trying to convince himself by posting these things. It took him 4 sentences to make that obvious.

I initially required quite a bit of convincing since being a midlevel was never on my radar. Having spoken with a number of people since considering the switch from med school to PA school, however, I feel comfortable and confident in the decision. I'm definitely not using this thread to convince myself any further.