What are the advantages if she transfer to one of top schools?

[libraryismyhome]

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I am from the midtier state university which is ranked about 50th according to US news national univ ranking. My sister now attends the same school as mine despite acceptance from ivy leagues and top privates like WashU and Northwestern because my school offers scholarship covering 100% of tuition for all 4 years. This happened because we are internationals waiting for our permanent residency, so we weren't able to apply for FAFSA + other scholarships which were reserved for citizens and permanent residents.

It is likely that she will maintain her 4.0 if she is going remain in my school, because she is very dedicated and I will inform her how to ace orgo, physics and upper level courses. She would be able to complete almost every EC I did and even more by the end of her sophomore year. (Most of my friends who did as much as mine all got into midtiers.)

If she wants to gain acceptance from the top tiers, she better ace the MCAT scoring around 37+. But a lot of my top premed friends with 3.9+ GPA and stellar ECs, they were not able to break 35 on their MCAT. I am speculating that this happened because my school's education was not rigorous enough to train them.

I would be happy with midtier med schools or anywhere but I want to expand my sister's capability as much as possible. Not only with acing MCAT, but also with having prestigious EC opportunities which are not offered in my school. By the time she becomes sophomore, it is almost guaranteed that we have our permanent residency and she would be able to apply for FAFSA, fin aid and scholarships. Since she already gained acceptances from some of these top schools, she has a good chance to transfer to one of them.

I understand that top schools are tougher in maintaining a high GPA. But will she have more advantage in both MCAT and ECs if she transfer to top schools?

 

[LoveTheRunner]

won't matter

 

[libraryismyhome]

.

 

[libraryismyhome]

.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Didn't you ask* this question a couple months ago?

 

[libraryismyhome]

Didn't you asked this question a couple months ago?

Indeed I did, but I didn't know that the school's rigor in academics has some impact on students' performance on MCAT.

 

[JustMeditate]

In all honesty, where you do your undergrad isn't a major factor in adcoms' eyes (Unless, of course, you go to community college. Don't do that). A lot of intelligent people make the mistake of going to an Ivy League thinking that the extra cost will be worth it, and that adcoms will view them more favorably if they do so. But a student with a 3.9 at a relatively unknown university is much more competitive than a student with a 3.7 from Brown, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. And chances are, if a typical 4.0 student goes to an Ivy League, the insane competition will result in a GPA reduction. Imagine how stressful it must be to maintain a high GPA, study for the MCATs, and complete EC's while competing at the Ivy League level! It isn't easy.

You know your sister better than I do, so maybe she could handle it, but you might as well make undergrad easy for yourself, because getting into med school requires some pretty high stats. And going to an Ivy League will most likely reduce your stats, and require you to spend more time studying outside class, and will thus, result in less time volunteering & researching. Also, at the Ivy League level, getting "opportunities" isn't exactly easy. Your competing with insane geniuses, and super smart graduate students, for any and all research and leadership positions available. Honestly, staying at a mid-tier school, where you know you'll be at the top of your class and thus, competitive for on-campus opportunities, is a better idea.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Indeed I did, but I didn't know that the school's rigor in academics has some impact on students' performance on MCAT.

I don't think there is a direct correlation here. I mean plenty of people on SDN have obtained 35+'s and attend stateU's or mid ranked universities. But again, more brilliant people attend the higher up universities on average so their mcat averages will more than likely be higher. Doesn't have anything to do with the rigor but rather other variables.

 

[JustMeditate]

Indeed I did, but I didn't know that the school's rigor in academics has some impact on students' performance on MCAT.

Just because a class might be harder doesn't mean that it will prepare you better for the MCAT or help you understand your pre-requisite classes any better. We've all had professors who weren't as in depth as we'd have liked, or perhaps didn't lecture well. That's where the art of "Reading the Textbook and Teaching the Material to Yourself" comes in. You'll have to do this at any undergraduate institution you go to, Ivy League or not, and in med school. Might as well get started now and set your own expectations, rather than waiting for a professor to set them for you. If you aren't happy with the rigor of the class, do more work on your own. Your MCAT score is in your hands. It is not the responsibility of the university you go to or the teachers you have.

 

[MightyMoose]

I am from the midtier state university which is ranked about 50th according to US news national univ ranking. My sister now attends the same school as mine despite acceptance from ivy leagues and top privates like WashU and Northwestern because my school offers scholarship covering 100% of tuition for all 4 years. This happened because we are internationals waiting for our permanent residency, so we weren't able to apply for FAFSA + other scholarships which were reserved for citizens and permanent residents.

It is likely that she will maintain her 4.0 if she is going remain in my school, because she is very dedicated and I will inform her how to ace orgo, physics and upper level courses. She would be able to complete almost every EC I did and even more by the end of her sophomore year. (Most of my friends who did as much as mine all got into midtiers.)

If she wants to gain acceptance from the top tiers, she better ace the MCAT scoring around 37+. But a lot of my top premed friends with 3.9+ GPA and stellar ECs, they were not able to break 35 on their MCAT. I am speculating that this happened because my school's education was not rigorous enough to train them.

I would be happy with midtier med schools or anywhere but I want to expand my sister's capability as much as possible. Not only with acing MCAT, but also with having prestigious EC opportunities which are not offered in my school. By the time she becomes sophomore, it is almost guaranteed that we have our permanent residency and she would be able to apply for FAFSA, fin aid and scholarships. Since she already gained acceptances from some of these top schools, she has a good chance to transfer to one of them.

I understand that top schools are tougher in maintaining a high GPA. But will she have more advantage in both MCAT and ECs if she transfer to top schools?

Your speculation is dead wrong.

The only thing that might be a possibility is that she could have better EC opportunities. This is not a sure thing though, because you can get tons of great EC experience at most state schools. The only reason I say maybe is because Ivy's usually have more research dollars, thus more research. Really at the end of the day though, I don't think it will matter.


Ivy's will give you/your sister better name recognition though, which could have a minor impact on med school applications.

 

[Musclemass]

In all honesty, where you do your undergrad isn't a major factor in adcoms' eyes (Unless, of course, you go to community college. Don't do that). A lot of intelligent people make the mistake of going to an Ivy League thinking that the extra cost will be worth it, and that adcoms will view them more favorably if they do so. But a student with a 3.9 at a relatively unknown university is much more competitive than a student with a 3.7 from Brown, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. And chances are, if a typical 4.0 student goes to an Ivy League, the insane competition will result in a GPA reduction. Imagine how stressful it must be to maintain a high GPA, study for the MCATs, and complete EC's while competing at the Ivy League level! It isn't easy.

You know your sister better than I do, so maybe she could handle it, but you might as well make undergrad easy for yourself, because getting into med school requires some pretty high stats. And going to an Ivy League will most likely reduce your stats, and require you to spend more time studying outside class, and will thus, result in less time volunteering & researching. Also, at the Ivy League level, getting "opportunities" isn't exactly easy. Your competing with insane geniuses, and super smart graduate students, for any and all research and leadership positions available. Honestly, staying at a mid-tier school, where you know you'll be at the top of your class and thus, competitive for on-campus opportunities, is a better idea.

Just Meditate,
It would have been easier, taken you less time, and would have been more accurate, if you had just responded "I don't know".

This is an old and tired topic.

 

[bucks2010]

I have yet to see any data correlating undergrad w/ MCAT score. Even if there was data, it would be almost impossible to weed out all of the external variables such as the quality of the student. Ask anyone who's taken the MCAT - you don't have to be a genius to do well on it, you just have to put the time in studying for it.

 

[libraryismyhome]

.

 

[venacontracta]

But a lot of my top premed friends with 3.9+ GPA and stellar ECs, they were not able to break 35 on their MCAT. I am speculating that this happened because my school's education was not rigorous enough to train them.

It's more likely that they study a lot and get good grades as a result but just do not have the critical thinking skills needed to get ridiculously high MCAT scores.

Merely taking more rigorous courses and putting in lots of hours isn't enough to get to a >35 MCAT score. I suspect that most people who get those kinds of scores did take challenging courses and put in the study time, but there are plenty of people out there that get >3.9 GPAs through the sheer number of hours they study but will never have the ability to get a >35 MCAT regardless of what they do.

 

[JustMeditate]

It would have been easier, taken you less time, and would have been more accurate, if you had just responded "I don't know".

Of course I can't speak for every Ivy League undergrad, but in the extensive research I've done on getting into med school (And I've done a lot, obviously. I is pre-med!), nearly everyone has agreed that a 3.9 at your typical university beats a 3.4 from Hopkins any day. Furthermore, I know a student at Brown who is struggling to maintain a 3.7, even though she got a 4.0 in an extremely competitive high school. In fact, she is so focused on her grades, she hasn't had the time for any research, and very little clinical work. Right now, all she has to her name is a 3.7 (still competitive, but on the lower end of the competitive GPA range) and the name "Brown." And that just ain't gonna cut it if she has zero EC's.

I also know several people at research institutions who struggle to get on-campus research because they have to compete with graduates for spots. At my undergraduate focused university, I have never been turned down for a research position I asked for.

I'm not talking out of my butt here, but I don't know everything either. Please feel free to add something constructive to the conversation if you feel I am misleading anyone.

 

[kcin]

If she wants to gain acceptance from the top tiers, she better ace the MCAT scoring around 37+. But a lot of my top premed friends with 3.9+ GPA and stellar ECs, they were not able to break 35 on their MCAT. I am speculating that this happened because my school's education was not rigorous enough to train them.

This attitude is so disgusting. You get what you put into your education. Don't try to excuse away bad scores by saying your school's education wasn't rigorous.

(ps. 37 MCAT, cheap state university)

 

[Barcu]

Um, a 35 is like the 95th percentile of test takers. That's not the effect of the school, that's just the existence of some really smart people.

Your sister will be fine.

 

[libraryismyhome]

This attitude is so disgusting. You get what you put into your education. Don't try to excuse away bad scores by saying your school's education wasn't rigorous.

(ps. 37 MCAT, cheap state university)

I apologize for making you feel bad, but the real reason that I am posting this is because there is a high chance that I may have to apply as an international and pay all 4 year tuition if I get into med school. My sister had to go to state univ, because my family cannot afford tuition for both 4 year med school and ivy undergrad. I feel guilty for possibly precluding her from maximizing her potential. 🙁

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

Um, a 35 is like the 95th percentile of test takers. That's not the effect of the school, that's just the existence of some really smart people.

Your sister will be fine.

YES.

Why don't people understand how the mcat is scored? For the record, usually anything higher than a 38 constitutes the top 1% of test takers... Let me spell that out: ONE PERCENT. So those types of numbers are vying over fractions of a single one percent. And when you can do well enough on the mcat to end up somewhere in the top 1%, luck and good guessing start to play more of a role than actual intelligence in determining whether you get, say, a 39 or 41.

Do GPAs work this way? Of course not. If you earn the A, you get the A, whether you're the best in the class or at the bottom of the cutoff. And your GPA is not determined in relation to all the GPAs of all the other applicants applying.

 

[bookfreak89]

Of course I can't speak for every Ivy League undergrad, but in the extensive research I've done on getting into med school (And I've done a lot, obviously. I is pre-med!), nearly everyone has agreed that a 3.9 at your typical university beats a 3.4 from Hopkins any day.

Naw, really?

Furthermore, I know a student at Brown who is struggling to maintain a 3.7, even though she got a 4.0 in an extremely competitive high school. In fact, she is so focused on her grades, she hasn't had the time for any research, and very little clinical work. Right now, all she has to her name is a 3.7 (still competitive, but on the lower end of the competitive GPA range) and the name "Brown." And that just ain't gonna cut it if she has zero EC's.

That's too bad for your friend, but she isn't the norm by far.

I also know several people at research institutions who struggle to get on-campus research because they have to compete with graduates for spots. At my undergraduate focused university, I have never been turned down for a research position I asked for.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding something here, but:
Obtaining a research position depends on the specific lab itself. If a lab has space and you demonstrate an interest, you'll probably get a position there. Undergraduates and graduate students do not compete for research positions. What sense does that make? PhD candidates are (usually) going to work in a lab of their choosing, undergraduates have no bearing on that whatsoever.

Some top schools are similar to LACs in that they focus their time and resources on their undergraduates. At other schools, you have to take the initiative.

In my opinion, whether or not the name of a top school helps, I don't know, but the things that you can accomplish there can definitely help.

 

[schrizto]

Look OP, I also go to a state school ranked around 50 and turned down top schools like JHU and Northwestern, and I haven't looked back. EC opportunities really depend on the kind of location the school is in rather than the school's prestige (urban areas tend to have more research). As for how much your school prepares you for the MCAT, even if you were given inadequate preparation, you should be able to study yourself to make up for it considering the MCAT tests content covered in the core prereqs. And lastly, since your sister sounds very capable, this should be something she should be worrying and deciding about herself and not you.

 

[Barcu]

I apologize for making you feel bad, but the real reason that I am posting this is because there is a high chance that I may have to apply as an international and pay all 4 year tuition if I get into med school. My sister had to go to state univ, because my family cannot afford tuition for both 4 year med school and ivy undergrad. I feel guilty for possibly precluding her from maximizing her potential. 🙁

I just wanted to say. I understand your feelings toward your siblings, but you also should be concerned with your own well-being and happiness. You are not preventing her from maximizing her potential. Only she can prevent herself. I know that sounds corny, but it's true. Your sister will be fine going to a state uni as long as she maintains her academic drive and is proactive in finding ECs (which are plentiful but sometimes harder to find at large schools).

Now, go worry about getting into med school.

 

[JustMeditate]

Let me know if I am misunderstanding something here, but:
Obtaining a research position depends on the specific lab itself. If a lab has space and you demonstrate an interest, you'll probably get a position there. Undergraduates and graduate students do not compete for research positions. What sense does that make? PhD candidates are (usually) going to work in a lab of their choosing, undergraduates have no bearing on that whatsoever.

Oops, you're right. What I said didn't make much sense. What I should have said, when I did a brain fart, is that, as an undergrad, your less likely to get a position doing your own project within the lab if it is more graduate focused, and they don't exactly have the time to babysit you while you do experiments for your own work. I think. But honestly, what I've been told by my advisers could very well be untrue, or at least, it's probably more of a lab to lab thing than a university to university.

 

[upchurch]

If you sister got into Ivy League schools, she probably has the capacity to do well on the MCAT without attending a rigorous university. On the other hand, if it is her dream to attend a top university, she should definitely apply as a transfer. I don't think scoring well on the MCAT should be the reason.

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

A 30 on the MCAT is not difficult, but a 35 is very hard. I think it's more likely that better test-takers attend better schools, and thus better schools tend to have applicants with higher MCAT scores. Undergraduate GPA is highly variable, and while a 3.9 at an average undergrad is numerically better than a 3.5 at Princeton, I think that most committee members acknowledge the difficulty in rigor among universities. Many schools have it on their admissions websites that they consider this. For example, it is even mentioned in the Official Guide to the MCAT created by the AAMC as a major factor. The MCAT will normalize admissions numbers. The adviser at my school (former committee member at top med school) said that a committee will not be very impressed with a 4.0 from a less competitive school if the MCAT is not competitive. So an example might be: a 4.0/28 from Idaho State < a 3.5/34 from Emory. Too many pre-meds but sole importance on pure numbers. There's more to it than that.

 

[bookfreak89]

Oops, you're right. What I said didn't make much sense. What I should have said, when I did a brain fart, is that, as an undergrad, your less likely to get a position doing your own project within the lab if it is more graduate focused, and they don't exactly have the time to babysit you while you do experiments for your own work. I think. But honestly, what I've been told by my advisers could very well be untrue, or at least, it's probably more of a lab to lab thing than a university to university.

I agree with you there. If you are a lowly undergrad, you are not going to be getting your own project. More likely than not, you will be helping a grad student with their research and if something that is worth investigating stems from that, then you may get a project of your own, maybe.

 

[SOcash]

Furthermore, I know a student at Brown who is struggling to maintain a 3.7, even though she got a 4.0 in an extremely competitive high school. In fact, she is so focused on her grades, she hasn't had the time for any research, and very little clinical work. Right now, all she has to her name is a 3.7 (still competitive, but on the lower end of the competitive GPA range) and the name "Brown." And that just ain't gonna cut it if she has zero EC's.

This sounds like a Hermionie-Emma Watson hybrid. Although to be honest I'm not surprised Emma got into Brown, she got ten "Outstanding" OWLs and one "Exceeds Expectations" in... oh wait...

 

[raltima07]

The name on the diploma