What are you guys allowed to do when shadowing?

[Syndicate101]

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Thank you for all your input!

 

[NoDakDok]

I am shadowing a pediatrician right now and once I got used to the flow of the office she started to let me do my own screenings. This involves taking respiratory rate, pulse rate, blood pressure, temperature, weight/height, bmi, and some history questions.

In the US, the number of ethical violations this creates is staggering. My hope would be that the reality of the situation is that the physician is with you, showing you phenomena, and not actually allowing you to record observations. And while you shouldn't do it with your physician, you most certainly shouldn't be doing those things alone.

When the doctor comes in for the physical examination however, she does not let me do anything but observe/ask questions.

This is the point of shadowing. Be involved, but take no part in actual patient care.

Is it okay for someone shadowing to do these things or is it something I shouldn't mention in interviews/apps? She taught me how to do all these things and made sure I did them correctly before letting me do them on my own.

Absolutely under no circumstance ever mention these activities on your application or in your interviews. There is literally not a single potential positive. Best case scenario is they don't care that you learned how to do some of the most basic things in medicine, and worst case scenario they immediately discard your application and file an incident report regarding you and your shadowed physician (highly unlikely, but wouldn't say it's impossible). If it was part of your job it would be another story, but in a physician observation situation you are not allowed to do such activities, even if you have training.

I'm not saying that I (and many others) haven't (or have) done things like this before medical school, but I strongly suggest keeping it to yourself.

 

[Ismet]

I'd say it's fine to do these things under the observation of the doc you're shadowing. If she's not in the room with you while you're taking vitals, then that's not shadowing, she's using you for free labor for the job that a MA/CNA would normally do.

I wouldn't include it. It's not like taking a patient's pulse and watching them breathe demonstrates your desire to do medicine. And it has more of a potential to hurt than to help.

 

[type12]

Touching, examining, which inevitably lead up to kissing, and other kinds of touching...

Though, since you're shadowing a pediatrician, you should probably not follow my lead. If it was geriatrics, I'd probably say, "hey, whatever floats your boat."

Seriously, though, you can totally mention it. That's what it is there for.

 

[type12]

I wouldn't include it. It's not like taking a patient's pulse and watching them breathe demonstrates your desire to do medicine. And it has more of a potential to hurt than to help.

Really? How can it hurt? Genuinely asking, not fighting/arguing

 

[SoonToBeDrG]

In the US, the number of ethical violations this creates is staggering. My hope would be that the reality of the situation is that the physician is with you, showing you phenomena, and not actually allowing you to record observations. And while you shouldn't do it with your physician, you most certainly shouldn't be doing those things alone.



This is the point of shadowing. Be involved, but take no part in actual patient care.



Absolutely under no circumstance ever mention these activities on your application or in your interviews. There is literally not a single potential positive. Best case scenario is they don't care that you learned how to do some of the most basic things in medicine, and worst case scenario they immediately discard your application and file an incident report regarding you and your shadowed physician (highly unlikely, but wouldn't say it's impossible). If it was part of your job it would be another story, but in a physician observation situation you are not allowed to do such activities, even if you have training.

I'm not saying that I (and many others) haven't (or have) done things like this before medical school, but I strongly suggest keeping it to yourself.

Just to clarify, this creates ethical violations specifically because it is in a private practice shadowing environment, yes? I've definitely volunteered in "prestigious" (read: well-known) health internships where all are trained on how to take vitals, physically interact with patients, assist in procedures, work in sterile fields, etc. The accepted regimen during shadowing would be to simply be a shadow, yes?

Edit: a word

 

[Ismet]

Really? How can it hurt? Genuinely asking, not fighting/arguing

Depends on the opinions of the people reading his application. As an above poster mentioned, this can be interpreted as an unethical situation (I'd say much more so on the doctor's fault than the student, though).

Really, it's not going to help his application, and if it has a small chance of hurting, why include it?

 

[NoDakDok]

Really? How can it hurt? Genuinely asking, not fighting/arguing

The situation is a high risk, no reward scenario. It doesn't take a very logical person to realize that is never worth it. Physician observation is just that, and additional activities (especially without the explicit instruction and guidance of a present clinician) is a huge ethical no-no.

Just to clarify, this creates ethical violations specifically because it is in a private practice shadowing environment, yes? I've definitely volunteered in "prestigious" (read: well-known) health internships where all are trained on how to take vitals, physically interact with patients, assist in procedures, work in sterile fields, etc. The accepted regimen during shadowing would be to simply be a shadow, yes?

Edit: a word

It's an ethical violation because it violates the intent and purpose of physician shadowing. Shadowing does not entail any actual practicing by the observer, and certainly not alone. Volunteering as a part of an internship opens up other possibilities since they are not explicitly defined by shadowing restrictions. If it is part of the hospital-approved internship description and you have been appropriately trained you should be okay. However, I would be wary on the involvement you talk about even in these situations. This is a lot more common elsewhere; a lot of ethical questionables arise in situations were premeds go abroad and participate in clinics where they do things that are ethically questionable in the US.

Overall, it is simply not worth putting those experiences in an application. As @Ismet said, there is no (little) reward and a huge potential risk. Do you really expect an interviewer to be impressed you can read vitals? You don't want something like that in your application.

I'm assuming OP's physician is older. The physician is certainly 'at fault' for allowing something like this with a premed who wouldn't necessarily know the ethical pieces behind it. I just suggest to OP not to make the mistake of mentioning it. Make note this situation of actually doing basic vitals and such away from a physician is much different than a physician allowing you to do something like listen to breath/heart sounds of a patient with their explicit consent.

 

[Dr. Retractor]

As previous posters have said, don't mention it on your app or in interviews. In my state a doctor can get his/her license revoked by allowed an uncertified individual do anything to a patient unsupervised. Not to mention the fact that the patients can sue the physician for letting you do those things without supervision, and then **** really hits the fan.

 

[mimelim]

Really? How can it hurt? Genuinely asking, not fighting/arguing

Observerships tend to not include malpractice insurance. The reason being that you are observing, not interacting. There is a miniscule, but real and most importantly identifiable liability exposure that people will care about. The purpose of shadowing is NOT to learn to be a doctor. I can NOT stress that enough. If you treat it that way, it is going to come off as being a negative.

 

[Syndicate101]

Depends on the opinions of the people reading his application. As an above poster mentioned, this can be interpreted as an unethical situation (I'd say much more so on the doctor's fault than the student, though).

Really, it's not going to help his application, and if it has a small chance of hurting, why include it?

I never thought/realized it was a high risk/little gain snippet to put on my app. Thanks for the help!