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What can one do with an M.D. and NO license?

ArielH

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15+ Year Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Hartford, CT, USA
    I am weighing whether to start IUHS's new eLP (distance-learning) Program (Basic Sciences). If the projected acceptance of this program is NIL, what can I do with an M.D. degree and no license? Are there possibilities in research? (I have been employed as a Clinical Research Coordinator for FDA trials in the US; however they prefer RN, BSN and RN/P's).

    I hold an MA in Experiemntal Psych and a Ph.D. in Health Psych. Have been a paramedic. Been teaching as adjunct for 8 years, not enough money to survive in Academia without a tenute-track job--SO--Med school has alays been my gols, but hard to live in Carribean for 2 years at age 47 with a wife, house... (children grown). Ideas?
     

    ArielH

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    Feb 8, 2001
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    Hartford, CT, USA
      In specific...where can one teach with an M.D. degree but NO license? At a med school in the USA? A University? Do you know of anyone who has gotten an MD and IS actually teaching?

      As respects Research, again where? Seems like the Pharmaceutical companies in USA want RN's, PharmD's, PhD's in Biochem...etc.

      Just would like to know that IF the IUHS program doesnt result in licensure, that employment can be obtained to pay back the enormous loans, and live a reasonably decent life ;-)

      Seems like my PhD in Health Psychology (not licensed clinical) has overqualified me for most jobs, and a tenure-track teaching job these days (and for the next 20 years) is virtually impossible to get, now that Universities have moved to a small full- time/huge part-time faculty model.
       
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      turtleboard

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        Teaching with an MD without a license means teaching basic science, and NOT clinical (bedside) stuff. My school happens to have a lot of foreign-trained MDs on the basic science faculty who do nothing but teach and do research all day.


        Tim W. of N.Y.C.
         

        ArielH

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        Feb 8, 2001
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        Hartford, CT, USA
          Intriguing...I've been teaching for the past 8 years, as a contracted not tenure-track professor of Psychology. I'm a coordinator of a doctoral health psychology e-Learning program as well. The money is awful...albiet the job is wonderful.

          My research has reached a roadblock due to my deficit in medical knowledge, one of my reasons for seeking an MD degree...however, if academia continues to hire more part-time, contract teachers and less tenure-track, full-time teachers, I'll be hard -pressed to pay back my student loans!

          Have I mentioned that I'm 47?

          Advise always appreciated...
           

          Aron

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          Mar 2, 2001
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          Wilmington, DE USA
            My advice would be to go all the way in pursuing that medical degree. The financial debt you place yourself in can still be paid back PLUS even though you are 47.

            I do not believe that incurring debt to go through the program you mention will pay off in the end with a high paying career.

            In addition, even though I consider myself an apt student, I could not imagine tackling the enormous material needed to earn this degree while working AND taking care of that family.

            I myself am giving up a business and moving my family with me to Nevis to attend MUA this May. I'm 34, and though I see the obstacles to be steeper for you, I don't believe them insurmountable. You would graduate early 50's and have many years ahead of you.

            Good luck with whatever you decide!
             

            ArielH

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            15+ Year Member
            Feb 8, 2001
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            Hartford, CT, USA
              Just a matter of clrification. You mention that I should go for it, that the loans will be paid off and then some...however you also say that a high-paying job is more or less impossible? What is the definition of high-paying?

              Also, are you saying that the distance learning option at IHS is not a good idea?

              Thanks...
               

              gower

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                In your case, few if any of the options that have been suggested seem viable to me, but what do I know?

                You are a hop, skip and jump away from U. Conn's School of Medicine in Farmington.
                See if you can get any help in a realsitic sorting out of what options might be available to you, not necessarily excluding admission to the medical school.

                The man you want to start with is Keat Sanford, Asst Dean for Admissions (because he is only one there I know). Make it clear you need advice and that you are not now a candidate or likely to be one to the medical school.

                860 679 2152 FAX: 860 679 1282
                [email protected]

                If he asks who sent you, post in SDN "re UCONN counseling visit" and I will send him an email. Tell Mr. Sanford to expect it.


                860
                 

                Rik

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                  Ariel I think with your Ph.D., you could obtain a license in California as a Psychologist. There are many openings, if licensed. California is broad in what they take as academic background. The test is hard and you take an oral exam. They have reduced mean pass score to the national mean, which makes the process easier. GL Rik
                  I forget to mention the some psychologists are in federal training programs with the goal to prescribe meds. This has been going on for about 5 years and is to be completed soon. It has been fought hard by the APA but State Leg. will have the final answer. Personally, I am not in favor of this privilege.

                  [This message has been edited by Rik (edited 03-10-2001).]
                   

                  ArielH

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                  Feb 8, 2001
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                  Hartford, CT, USA
                    Thanks for the info Rick,
                    One of the reasons I want to get an MD is because my training as a health psychologist was bereft of the study of endocrinology, pharmacology, etc.
                    I want to be able to better understand and have my research be informed my a medical education. Too many well-meaning but egoistic psychologists want to use psychotropic meds without a comprehensive understanding of the human body. An MD colleague of mine once told me that "you can't be a doctor part-time". What he meant was that without placing your hands into the viscera, you won't appreciate medicine--which is what the Prescriptive Rights for Psychologists action fails to comprehend. When I was a paramedic, I was utterly frustrated by the "bag and drag" mentality, and wanted to learn "prescriptive medicine" as opposed to "emergency medicine (sic)". Paramedics learn the ABC approach, but not the ABCD approach.
                    Health and Neuro Psychologists study the mind-body model, but most are undertrained in terms of the "body" side of this model.

                    The texts I am using for the doctoral Neuropsych & Health Psych courses I am currently teaching do not mention the enteric nervous system! How can one discuss psychophysiological disorders without a firm grasp of the physiological aspects?

                    That's why I will not become licensed as a psychologist in CA.
                     

                    ArielH

                    Junior Member
                    15+ Year Member
                    Feb 8, 2001
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                    Hartford, CT, USA
                      I suppose the bottom line comes down to this: I cannot invest 2 years in the carribean or in Mexico right now, however I could invest the time in an internet based, basic sciences plan of sudy. This model is used in Australia and New Zealand now, and with the exception of such courses and gross anatomy and histology which I can take here at UConn or Yale, I would be well-prepared for the 2 years of rotations in a US hospital.

                      I do worry that after the 4 years I may not be able to become licensed due to the internet coursework on my transcript, thus I may have to become lisenced in Australia or New Zealand, and try to get reciprocity in the US, which seems unlikely.

                      As respects becoming licensed as a clinical psychologist, that seems to be redndant in that I already have been trained, a post-doc internship is all that is required. However I wouldstill lack the medical training that I need to be able to d the work I want to do - both in terms of research and practice.
                       
                      K

                      kimberlicox

                        <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by ArielH:
                        I suppose the bottom line comes down to this: I cannot invest 2 years in the carribean or in Mexico right now, however I could invest the time in an internet based, basic sciences plan of sudy. This model is used in Australia and New Zealand now, and with the exception of such courses and gross anatomy and histology which I can take here at UConn or Yale, I would be well-prepared for the 2 years of rotations in a US hospital.

                        I do worry that after the 4 years I may not be able to become licensed due to the internet coursework on my transcript, thus I may have to become lisenced in Australia or New Zealand, and try to get reciprocity in the US, which seems unlikely.

                        As respects becoming licensed as a clinical psychologist, that seems to be redndant in that I already have been trained, a post-doc internship is all that is required. However I wouldstill lack the medical training that I need to be able to d the work I want to do - both in terms of research and practice.

                        Hi Ariel,
                        As a recent graduate of an Australian school I feel I must address some inaccuracies in the above post.

                        I am not aware of ANY Australian medical school which relies on internet resources to teach medicine. Several of the schools have gone to the 4 yr American model and utilize PBL based curriculums, but the basic sciences are NOT taught on-line. To be sure, the schools do have RESOURCES (programs, lecture notes, etc.) on-line or on CD-Rom and are using the technology to enhance the study of medicine, but ALL of them require PBL and didactic attendance during the first 2 years. In addition, all require attendance on the wards and in clinics during the first two years to teach and hone clinical skills. There is no getting around this. The final two years are hospital based just as they are in the US.

                        Your last paragraph notes the unlikelihood of getting licensed in Australia and then transferring this to the US. This is correct because of several difficulties.

                        1) full unrestricted licensure in Australia requires not only the completion of an internship (which "registers" you) but the completion of a residency (known as a registration or advanced training)

                        2) currently there are not enough spaces in advanced training for OZ citizens who graduate with medical degrees. In most states, a non-citizen, even with an Oz medical degree, will be considered LAST or second to last (before non-citizen, non-Oz grads) for residency placement. The laws vary from state to state, but in general, most of the Americans who trained down there and decided to stay for internship are having great difficulty getting a visa. And when they do, it will require them to leave the country after completion of an internship. Staying in the country for residency usually requires that you either become a citizen of Oz or that you agree to work "bush". Even simply marrying an Oz citizen is no guarantee - I have a classmate who did that and I believe that he was required to be married for at least 3 years before consideration would be given to his citizenship application.

                        3)there exists no "reciprocity" in licensing between the US and any country except Canada. A graduate of any school outside of the US and Canada is required to go through the same steps for ECFMG certification: USMLE Steps 1 and 2, the TOEFL and the CSA. Having an Australian license to practice medicine does not exclude you from these steps.

                        4)to become BC in several fields requires that you have done your residency in the US. I have spoken to many Australian physicians who were required to repeat all or a large portion of their OZ residency once here in the US. Check out the professional association for fields you might be interested in.

                        5) finally, should you find that you could do a residency in OZ be aware that the training periods are considerably longer there than in the US. Thus, a 3 year residency in the US could perhaps take you as long as 6 years in OZ. You've mentioned that you are older - this may be a consideration.

                        I hope this doesn't sound harsh; I didn't intend for it too. It just has appeared to me that often people are ignorant of the regulations in different countries. I had more than one classmate who assumed he could become an Australian citizen simply by moving down there and going to school, and further assumed he could simply stay for residency training should be choose to do so. It is not like gaining state citizenship in the US. It is MUCH more difficult and physicians are not at the top of the list to gain entry into Oz.

                        I sympathize with your plight but it appears that to have all the advantages that a medical degree confers, you must do the traditional curriculum. Obviously this would require that you quit your job, a serious undertaking. I wish you only the best of luck and hope that you are able to come to a decision soon. Please feel free to write should you have anymore questions about Australian medicine.
                         
                        K

                        kimberlicox

                          BTW, just wanted to add WHY I understand your plight. I too have a Master's degree in Exp Psych and was working on a PhD in Health Psychology when I realized two things:

                          1) most major studies, especially those that are drug company affiliated or that use drugs in the trials, REQUIRE a medical doctor to be on board. A PhD could not be the PI in those studies.

                          2) I actually enjoyed more of the biology than I did the psychology. I even got chastized on my thesis for spending too much time on that issue! Figured I'd always wanted to be a medical doctor, so what was I waiting for?

                          Since you have a spouse to consider it does make the decision more difficult. She would be able to secure at least some employment in Oz or the UK should you consider applying for medical school there. I do not know the extent to which employment would be available to her in the Caribbean or Mexico.

                          Best of luck to you...
                           
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