What distinguishes one job applicant from another in this field?

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creamfreesh

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I read so much on this forum about the increasingly saturated job market in Rad Onc, and how many applicants find themselves applying both to private practice and academic positions just to keep their options open. In that vein, I am somewhat curious exactly what criteria secures one person a job in this field over another person...particularly for private practice vs academics. How many publications are on your CV? Who you know/have networked with over the past? Where you did your residency? The "3 A's" I always seem to read about? I did an away rotation at a very reputable institution where one of the most affable graduates I worked with couldn't even get job placement at my local hospital, while a graduate of another much less reputable program with only 3 total publications got an academic job at one of the best hospitals in the country. Is that the exception to the rule, or am I just not getting the full picture there?

It just seems like there isn't that much to go on in terms of how or who picks who, and I can't really wrap my head around how any of this hiring and selection works. What does someone look at when hiring a new Rad Onc? Is residency for Rad Onc mostly just training, or are there important, specific things one must do during that time to set themselves up for their ideal job at the end of the four years?

There have to be someone around 100 new Rad Oncs graduated every year. What sets them apart from each other?

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The politically correct answer is: You have to do the best you can to set yourself up for the job you want.

If that's a specific location, network in that location as much as possible. If it's some academic niche or some prestigious academic title, network in those circles and be productive academically.

If you're really lucky, you can do nothing and get handed your ideal job. It used to happen a lot--but now not so much. There's too much competition.

If you're lucky and you've set yourself up as best you can for a position, they might have a position for you since they already know you.

If you're unlucky, your connections will run dry and you'll scramble for whatever you can find. There are a lot of positions that get filled by "Oh no! We need someone right away! Who's out there and available to start on short notice?" Most of the graduating residents who still have no job offers in March or April typically pick up something up like this.

There have to be someone around 100 new Rad Oncs graduated every year.

Close to 200 actually.

My honest and not politically correct answer is: I think the "three A's" are the most important thing right now period.

Even academics nowadays is often trying to hire high RVU producing "go-getters" to build satellite positions and steal the volume away from private practices. That describes the vast majority of new "academic" positions in my state. I know several academic institutions that have changed to "eat what you kill" style entirely RVU based compensation models. This means that there's really little difference between academics and private in a lot of markets.

So academic hiring becomes "we need someone who looks academic", i.e. will at least try to enroll on clinical trials and understand research to try to draw in more patients to the academic practice (so they can keep 90% of the revenue you generate), but those positions are still basically 100% clinical. Those positions typically look for someone who is strong on paper, and then select the best "three A" candidate based on the interview. They're not going to give you anything more than 1 "protected" day per week, which is a joke because it's probably not protected anyway. This is fine by them--if you don't grow professionally this will further limit your opportunities to get promoted or acquire competing job offers and cost more or leave for greener pastures in a few years.

The problem for the employer is: unless they know you, they don't know who is going to embody the "three As". So if they already know you and like you, you have a good chance to get hired if they're hiring. If they don't know you, your CV is going to get buried with the hundred plus other CVs that apply for every job that gets posted on the ASTRO career center. Because how can you demonstrate the three A's on a piece of paper? You really can't. So private groups look for whoever they already know and like or who is connected to the area, and try to sort through whoever is actually *connected* vs. who is just making some connection up so that the employee doesn't just bail when the going gets tough. Now whether the going will get tough because it's a bad practice and they're looking to take advantage of someone or the going might get tough for other reasons is a different question. Then you try to demonstrate the "three A's" during your partnership track period and hopefully make partner. Even in positions that aren't partnership track, there's typically a reward system to keep you around if they like you or exploit you or fire you if they don't like you.

One way new grads used to manage this whole situation was to take their chances possibly in a less desired position for awhile, make connections, and then move to a better position. But, ridiculous mandatory state-wide multi-year non-compete agreements and the glut of desperate new grads are making it more and more difficult to use your connections to move into a better position in the area. Leaving the area is more challenging as well, especially without giving up whatever seniority you managed to acquire.

Still, with the flow of new grads every year, it's not too difficult from the employer's standpoint to just take their chances and make sink-or-swim, churn-and-burn, revolving door style practices. It used to be that the worst academic practices just found foreign "fellows" and "instructors", but nowadays even those exploitative positions are increasingly expanding and filling with US grads. From their perspective, the increasingly desperate new grads will stick around for the location or because the job market sucks even if they never are particularly happy or well paid. There are plenty of people out there in that situation.
 
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In my anecdotal experience, most graduating rad onc residents are smart, hardworking, and well trained. And most also aren't weirdos so really it often comes down to connections. The only exception I think is for 80/20 physician-scientist jobs for which you really need strong papers, grants, and a compelling research plan. But even then, it helps to know people.
 
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I did an away rotation at a very reputable institution where one of the most affable graduates I worked with couldn't even get job placement at my local hospital, while a graduate of another much less reputable program with only 3 total publications got an academic job at one of the best hospitals in the country. Is that the exception to the rule, or am I just not getting the full picture there?

What's a "much less reputable program?"
 
The politically correct answer is: You have to do the best you can to set yourself up for the job you want.

If that's a specific location, network in that location as much as possible. If it's some academic niche or some prestigious academic title, network in those circles and be productive academically.

If you're really lucky, you can do nothing and get handed your ideal job. It used to happen a lot--but now not so much. There's too much competition.

If you're lucky and you've set yourself up as best you can for a position, they might have a position for you since they already know you.

If you're unlucky, your connections will run dry and you'll scramble for whatever you can find. There are a lot of positions that get filled by "Oh no! We need someone right away! Who's out there and available to start on short notice?" Most of the graduating residents who still have no job offers in March or April typically pick up something up like this.



Close to 200 actually.

My honest and not politically correct answer is: I think the "three A's" are the most important thing right now period.

Even academics nowadays is often trying to hire high RVU producing "go-getters" to build satellite positions and steal the volume away from private practices. That describes the vast majority of new "academic" positions in my state. I know several academic institutions that have changed to "eat what you kill" style entirely RVU based compensation models. This means that there's really little difference between academics and private in a lot of markets.

So academic hiring becomes "we need someone who looks academic", i.e. will at least try to enroll on clinical trials and understand research to try to draw in more patients to the academic practice (so they can keep 90% of the revenue you generate), but those positions are still basically 100% clinical. Those positions typically look for someone who is strong on paper, and then select the best "three A" candidate based on the interview. They're not going to give you anything more than 1 "protected" day per week, which is a joke because it's probably not protected anyway. This is fine by them--if you don't grow professionally this will further limit your opportunities to get promoted or acquire competing job offers and cost more or leave for greener pastures in a few years.

The problem for the employer is: unless they know you, they don't know who is going to embody the "three As". So if they already know you and like you, you have a good chance to get hired if they're hiring. If they don't know you, your CV is going to get buried with the hundred plus other CVs that apply for every job that gets posted on the ASTRO career center. Because how can you demonstrate the three A's on a piece of paper? You really can't. So private groups look for whoever they already know and like or who is connected to the area, and try to sort through whoever is actually *connected* vs. who is just making some connection up so that the employee doesn't just bail when the going gets tough. Now whether the going will get tough because it's a bad practice and they're looking to take advantage of someone or the going might get tough for other reasons is a different question. Then you try to demonstrate the "three A's" during your partnership track period and hopefully make partner. Even in positions that aren't partnership track, there's typically a reward system to keep you around if they like you or exploit you or fire you if they don't like you.

One way new grads used to manage this whole situation was to take their chances possibly in a less desired position for awhile, make connections, and then move to a better position. But, ridiculous mandatory state-wide multi-year non-compete agreements and the glut of desperate new grads are making it more and more difficult to use your connections to move into a better position in the area. Leaving the area is more challenging as well, especially without giving up whatever seniority you managed to acquire.

Still, with the flow of new grads every year, it's not too difficult from the employer's standpoint to just take their chances and make sink-or-swim, churn-and-burn, revolving door style practices. It used to be that the worst academic practices just found foreign "fellows" and "instructors", but nowadays even those exploitative positions are increasingly expanding and filling with US grads. From their perspective, the increasingly desperate new grads will stick around for the location or because the job market sucks even if they never are particularly happy or well paid. There are plenty of people out there in that situation.
A very insightful response! Thank you for taking the time to reply so thoroughly. It sounds like the increasingly tight job market has a lot of politics to it in terms of who gets what where, which is lamentable but not entirely surprising I suppose. Indeed, I've heard from Rad Onc residents that networking is very important for both PP and academics. I guess the question then becomes how to do that, particularly if the job of interest is very far removed from one's residency geographically and personally. There are obvious connections to one's home (either area of residence, or residency program), but surely there have to be other opportunities besides that, right? ASTRO, leadership positions, personal contacts, just emailing folks, etc.? I've also heard that the academic jobs are becoming more like private practice jobs fas you said, filled by someone with an "academic" appearing CV. Scary for me, as I'd really like to do academics.

Many of the former Rad Onc residents I have spoken with from my home program expressed frustration with the lack of career guidance they had during their training, so it's very helpful to learn all of this now when maybe I can be more proactive in how I approach my training.
 
In my anecdotal experience, most graduating rad onc residents are smart, hardworking, and well trained. And most also aren't weirdos so really it often comes down to connections. The only exception I think is for 80/20 physician-scientist jobs for which you really need strong papers, grants, and a compelling research plan. But even then, it helps to know people.
My thoughts exactly. Almost everybody in this field is great. What, then, distinguishes one "great" applicant from the next? It sounds like connections, but that begs the question, what are "connections" and how do you forge them? Your residency program chairman holds a lot of clout and knows the head Rad Onc in the program you're interested in? You've maintained a relationship with your employer of interest since the beginning of residency? You showcase yourself during ASTRO? All of the above plus more? Not trying to be pedantic, I'm just genuinely curious how people seem to figure this out so effortlessly.
 
My thoughts exactly. Almost everybody in this field is great. What, then, distinguishes one "great" applicant from the next? It sounds like connections, but that begs the question, what are "connections" and how do you forge them? Your residency program chairman holds a lot of clout and knows the head Rad Onc in the program you're interested in? You've maintained a relationship with your employer of interest since the beginning of residency? You showcase yourself during ASTRO? All of the above plus more? Not trying to be pedantic, I'm just genuinely curious how people seem to figure this out so effortlessly.

This is not effortless, but there is no one size fits all strategy here. It depends on your situation. The more you produce as a resident for academics (abstracts, papers, etc), the more opportunities you will have to network and get your name out at conferences and committees and such. Also, when you're productive academically that usually drives your faculty to go to bat for you to help you get a job in academics.

For the people who want a specific location I've heard of residents taking vacation during residency and cold calling/e-mailing practices in their area of interest to shadow them for a day or two and then keeping in touch. Your success with this may vary. If you are doing residency in the area in which you'd like to stay, reaching out to practices in the area during residency can't hurt. Moonlighting (typically as a PGY-5) is great too--it allows you to see the practice and allows you to show your skills. Many programs forbid moonlighting since they want don't want you helping their competition.

None of this guarantees success. At the end of the day, you do your best to put yourself in the best position possible and hope it works out.

Many of the former Rad Onc residents I have spoken with from my home program expressed frustration with the lack of career guidance they had during their training, so it's very helpful to learn all of this now when maybe I can be more proactive in how I approach my training.

Most faculty don't know what they're doing in this regard either. The ones who have been out for 10+ years remember the days when they could walk into any location in the country and have 10 job offers. The ones who more recently started as faculty tend to be still dazed and confused by it. This is a moving target that is situation specific, location specific, and highly influenced by changes in supply and demand.

Scary for me, as I'd really like to do academics.

Be careful what you wish for ;)
 
What is the difference between academic rad onc and private practice rad onc for new grads?

The salary potential. Oh, and residents. Hordes of residents.
 
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