What do I do on a second look?

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So, I'm thinking of doing second looks at my top 3 or so... Partially because I want to see what they are 'really' like, and partially because you never know if they might bump me up that list of theirs...

Anyway, a few questions for the people who have been there, done that.

- What do I wear? Does it differ if I will be in the OR all day vs an academic day?
- What is expected of me?
- What is the general breakdown of the day?

Any other info/advice would be awesome...

Thanks everyone

 

[Winged Scapula]

So, I'm thinking of doing second looks at my top 3 or so... Partially because I want to see what they are 'really' like, and partially because you never know if they might bump me up that list of theirs...

I guess you never really know, but since its January 22nd, most programs have probably already finalized their ROL, or will do so shortly. Even if they are last minute Johnnies, I doubt the visit will change your ranking. It could even hurt you.

Anyway, a few questions for the people who have been there, done that.

- What do I wear? Does it differ if I will be in the OR all day vs an academic day?

Generally "clinic" wear is acceptable - ie, you don't have to wear a suit like you did for the interview, but I would come in a nice collared shirt with a tie and trousers. If you are going into the OR, they will give you scrubs to wear.

- What is expected of me?

To look interested, to have some questions that weren't answered when you interviewed, etc. Act normally.

- What is the general breakdown of the day?

HIGHLY dependent on program. You might shadow the PD, you might spend some time with his residents on their daily duties, etc. There is no way to generalize.

 

[misery]

Excuse my MS3 ingnorance. But what is a second look. You've interviewed I assume, is this a normal thing?

 

[dynx]

So, I'm thinking of doing second looks at my top 3 or so... Partially because I want to see what they are 'really' like, and partially because you never know if they might bump me up that list of theirs...

Anyway, a few questions for the people who have been there, done that.

Well im feeling generous maybe I can help.

- What do I wear? Does it differ if I will be in the OR all day vs an academic day?

Not at all. Some may think that this is a stupid question. They would say..."do you think you're gonna lounge around in scrubs all day when everyone else is in a suite and tie? *****." But not me, that would probably be a TOS violation and I allready have plenty of those. Furthemore, I realize that appropriate attire may be confusing for some people...not many at this stage of the game, but some. Most people would suggest showing up in a shirt and tie since it's easy to change into scrubs if needed. But thats bull ****, you need to set an early precedent and let these people know you plan on wearing scrubs 24/7 and they can kiss your ass if they don't like it.

- What is expected of me?

First off, they will expect you to ask the tough questions. You're interested? Show them you're interested by getting the REAL deal on how things go down in the hospital. Here's some questions to get you on your way:

After a presentation you can ask:
"so is it common that everyone gets to take a little nap like that in the middle of the day?"
At M&M you can say something like:
"Wow, I've never seen a case with that many mistakes before...what great learning opportunities. Do attendings always let you fumble around like that or was he clueless too?"
In the OR you can demonstrate knowledge and gain insight with a question like:
"I've seen a Lot of these procedures done in less than an hour, does everyone at this institution opperate at this rate? It must be so easy to learn when the case goes so slow"

- What is the general breakdown of the day?

9am: breakfast, alone if need be. They have patients to see? f*ck them, breakfast is the most important meal of the day
10am: rounds, let them know you can do rounds at 10. They should be trying to impress YOU on a second look right?
11am: first case of the day, at least, the first one you're gonna go to.
11:30am: Tell them you're gonna go see if something more intersting is going on
11:55am: back into the same OR...let them know thier aint **** going on. Ask them if thier done yet. No? Let them know you'll be in the caf. Ask if they want an IceCream bar. No? thier loss.
12:00 noon: Flirt with the hot guy/girl in the cafeteria
12:30 pm: nap
2pm: Try to find the program director
2:15pm: tell the program director the day could have been a lot more organized.
3pm: surf the internet in the residents lounge. Two Girls One Cup? Thats freaking priceless man..show the first female resident you can find. Funny internet videos build shared experiences and create inside jokes you can bond over.
4pm: leave

Any other info/advice would be awesome...

Thanks everyone

Whatever you do don't just show up in a suite and tie and go with the flow. You gotta over think this man. Work yourself into a frenzy and collect random advice online...thats how future surgeons prep for an awsome second look.

You're welcome.

 

[ESU_MD]

9am: breakfast, alone if need be. They have patients to see? f*ck them, breakfast is the most important meal of the day
10am: rounds, let them know you can do rounds at 10. They should be trying to impress YOU on a second look right?
11am: first case of the day, at least, the first one you're gonna go to.
11:30am: Tell them you're gonna go see if something more intersting is going on
11:55am: back into the same OR...let them know thier aint **** going on. Ask them if thier done yet. No? Let them know you'll be in the caf. Ask if they want an IceCream bar. No? thier loss.
12:00 noon: Flirt with the hot guy/girl in the cafeteria
12:30 pm: nap
2pm: Try to find the program director
2:15pm: tell the program director the day could have been a lot more organized.
3pm: surf the internet in the residents lounge. Two Girls One Cup? Thats freaking priceless man..show the first female resident you can find. Funny internet videos build shared experiences and create inside jokes you can bond over.
4pm: leave

QUOTE]


this sounds like how the interns at my program have it nowadays.

 

[ESU_MD]

2nd lookers can move up a few spots in my experience, but nothing significant. usually, they just stay stable or move down.

its a tough day since there isnt alot of structure usually. just alot of shadowing, which quickly gets old for both parties involved. we usually have the candidate say hi to the program director, chairman then just team up with a resident who invariably winds up taking the candidate to "see a case"

imagine being a candidate and standing around for a long case where you cant see jack and trying to make pretend you can see and are interested. they poor saps are always too scared to leave.

better off just writing letters and phone calls.

 

[drdrew267]

So I appreciate sarcasm as much as anyone else but it'd be nice if these posts could be taken seriously. I'm sure it's been awhile for some, but try and remember how scared you were when you were interviewing and have a little sympathy for those of us not as fortunate to be where you residents are. In other words, if you have nothing noteworthy to contribute, please do us all a favor and don't.

I'm doing second looks as much for myself as for the program. I think like everything else, expectations are everything. If you go in thinking it will cement your chances of getting in, expect to be disappointed. However, if you're like me and you're on the fence about several programs...how can it hurt? Obviously, any time with the program director or residents can potentially hurt you, but that's like saying you can die tomorrow if you're stupid - don't be stupid, don't say dumb things, don't be a smart alec, don't brownnose...try and be enthusiastic - etc.

 

[jubb]

I did a second look that was really positive. I dressed as I would for a clinic day and that seemed to be what I was supposed to wear. I got to attend conference and then go to the OR and do more in the operating room than I've done at my home program, it was just me an a resident operating while the PD was chatting with the nurses and anesthesiologist not even scrubbed. Then they found some other people for me to operate with. Then I rounded with an attending and some residents and then I got outta there. It was a pretty nice day actually. I think at most it made them feel more comfortable about where they were putting me on their rank list, and possibly solidify my position in the rank list if there is a shake up or revamping of the list. As far as what I took from it, I feel more comfortable with where I'm ranking them. I saw more attendings, saw residents in non-interview day situations. I really don't think it moved me up or down. It'd be nice if it didn't move me up or down because I'm ranked #1 but I highly doubt that.

I would recommend second looks for your top choices if you got nothing else to do and it's not going to cost you that much money.

Justin

 

[DNASplicer]

I would not really suggest a second look. I don't think it will really matter. Your time can be better spent, in my opinion.

I did not do second looks b/c I could not afford it. I spent $$$$ on the interview trail. Plus I know someone who DID do a second look at the program I am in right now and she did not match here. I also happen to know that this chick was a super competitive candidate.

I would recommend thank you letters, etc.

I also sent "notes" to my "top choice" programs after I interviewed ensuring them that I still have interest, etc, blah blah. These program directors know we are interviewing everywhere. I thought it was important they still knew I was seriously interested.

BTW, once you match, don't forget to send your interviewers a thank you note too. They were the ones that were on your side during the ROL discussions.

Just my 2 cents.

And I do totally sympathize with your plight. This was an extremely stressful process for me last year. I wasn't really sure I was that competitive, but I was pleasantly wrong.

 

[DNASplicer]

clarification:

Write that note after you are done interviewing at all/most programs to let the program know you are still interested.

Also, if you are interested in the "real deal" of the program... email some of the residents in the program. Talk to some of your residents and find out what they heard. Talk to your faculty. That will give you a better idea of the program than a second look with less than 10% of what the program has to offer.

 

[zeitgeist]

hi... i've been a lurker for more than a year here but thought i'd weigh in on this topic, fresh from the interview trail.

1. i did second looks at my top three. these second looks were exclusively for me... i did not go out of my way to meet with the pd or chair... because what i felt like i needed to do was to get a sense of the vibe of the workday and meet as many residents as i could. i asked myself "do these people get along" "is this a fun place to work" "do they seem to care about the patients or themselves" "is it a very stressful environment" "how do the attendings treat the residents" "do people love it here" etc

2. i wore clinic attire and my home school badge. the badge is key because it lets people know who you are (a visiting med student) as opposed to an awkward dude in dress clothes who happens to be standing in a corner in the ICU at 6:00am. and, it takes the pressure off the people youre shadowing in terms of what your name is and where youre from... and, other residents will see your badge and say "ah are you doing a 2nd look?" it sounds dumb, but it's true. in terms of clinic attire, i think this is a must. two of three places had me change into scrubs b/c i went to see cases, but shouldn't go in your own scrubs, especially cuz most places will have you come on their conference day

3. anecdotal reports of people not matching b/c they did a 2nd look shouldnt really affect your decision. obviously if you piss people off, then you're hurting yourself... but if you are just you, then you'll be fine (unless youre a jerk). honestly, how could we possibly know their rank at the program before and after their second look? it is easy to blame a second look on not matching somewhere but i HIGHLY doubt that... more likely someone just wasnt as high up on the list as they thought. and, as an aside, who really knows what these programs are looking for? there could be 2 top programs and you could be #1 at one place and #99 at the other. who really knows (besides PDs)?

4. do NOT do a second look only to move up the rank list- lots of programs by now have finalized their lists. but others havent. in the end, who the hell knows how they decide this stuff anyways.

5. the format for 2nd looks depends. at all three places the format was variable... it consisted of some combination of rounding, conference, shadowing an intern or a chief, going to the OR. i would bet that most places will have you come on their conference day. most 2nd looks are pretty informal and not well organized. it's frankly awkward at times because you are literally just shadowing (the interns must say, at least 10 times a day, while doing their scut work "i know this must be so boring for you")... but, you meet way more people than you did during the interview and you get to see what it's really like when the pager is going off every 2 seconds... or when you have 10 minutes to eat lunch.

6. i would recommend 2nd looks b/c it has helped me better define the vibe of a place. i now have a better idea of my top 3 and i had things ranked differently last week before i went.

7. but, all in all, be mindful of the fact that everyone's experience is and will be different. it is sort of like attending surgeons that you know- every surgeon has a quirky element of practice based on one patient that had a bad outcome at some point. this is similar for us. i'm going to recommend 2nd looks (assuming i match in my top 3) b/c i found them helpful. others may have not found them helpful or knew someone who "hurt themselves" from doing a 2nd look.

8. regarding thank you notes, my school's residency advisor really likes e-mail. you are given the added bonus of an increased likelihood of a response. in the last week i have emailed a bunch of PDs and interviewers and have heard back from >2/3rds of them. sometimes, the reply would be a standard "thanks for the email" or "thanks for interviewing" and other times it would be "we were really impressed with you". it's variable. but, it is nicer than having a thank you card sit in a desk or a folder... even if your intent is only to say thank you and not get feedback, it is still nice to know that your thanks was received and not lost somewhere in a dumpster or the "special inbox". i am pretty sure that thank you notes in the end are mainly only for the nice gesture... i have been told by multiple faculty members that they don't matter. but one thing that my residency advisor did mention was that if you send cards or emails, make sure that your language is NOT ambiguous such that it can be interpreted in a wrong way. definitely be unambiguously excited about a program if you are interested in it. my PD also told me that telling a program that you will "rank them highly" doesnt really mean anything b/c he just assumes you say that to everyone (again, an n of 1)

9. probably the only thing you can do to affect your rank is to tell a program they are #1. but, this will only help bump you up if, say, you're #8 at a program with 7 spots, and they havent heard from #7. but, if you're #55 and they never match below #20, saying theyre your #1 is worthless. imagine how many people rank places like mgh #1... prolly a lot.

10. do NOT tell more than one place you are #1. this not only jeopardizes your reputation (surgery is a small world) but it also jeopardizes the reputation of your school and your letter writers/advocates. on the interview trail i heard about someone from my school changing his mind at the last second after he had told another place that they were his #1... even though it was more than 5 years ago, people still talk about it.

11. good luck 🙂 most people are happy with the match in the end. hopefully i will be as well.

 

[Hoo\/er]

Well im feeling generous maybe I can help.



Not at all. Some may think that this is a stupid question. They would say..."do you think you're gonna lounge around in scrubs all day when everyone else is in a suite and tie? *****." But not me, that would probably be a TOS violation and I allready have plenty of those. Furthemore, I realize that appropriate attire may be confusing for some people...not many at this stage of the game, but some. Most people would suggest showing up in a shirt and tie since it's easy to change into scrubs if needed. But thats bull ****, you need to set an early precedent and let these people know you plan on wearing scrubs 24/7 and they can kiss your *** if they don't like it.



First off, they will expect you to ask the tough questions. You're interested? Show them you're interested by getting the REAL deal on how things go down in the hospital. Here's some questions to get you on your way:

After a presentation you can ask:
"so is it common that everyone gets to take a little nap like that in the middle of the day?"
At M&M you can say something like:
"Wow, I've never seen a case with that many mistakes before...what great learning opportunities. Do attendings always let you fumble around like that or was he clueless too?"
In the OR you can demonstrate knowledge and gain insight with a question like:
"I've seen a Lot of these procedures done in less than an hour, does everyone at this institution opperate at this rate? It must be so easy to learn when the case goes so slow"



9am: breakfast, alone if need be. They have patients to see? f*ck them, breakfast is the most important meal of the day
10am: rounds, let them know you can do rounds at 10. They should be trying to impress YOU on a second look right?
11am: first case of the day, at least, the first one you're gonna go to.
11:30am: Tell them you're gonna go see if something more intersting is going on
11:55am: back into the same OR...let them know thier aint **** going on. Ask them if thier done yet. No? Let them know you'll be in the caf. Ask if they want an IceCream bar. No? thier loss.
12:00 noon: Flirt with the hot guy/girl in the cafeteria
12:30 pm: nap
2pm: Try to find the program director
2:15pm: tell the program director the day could have been a lot more organized.
3pm: surf the internet in the residents lounge. Two Girls One Cup? Thats freaking priceless man..show the first female resident you can find. Funny internet videos build shared experiences and create inside jokes you can bond over.
4pm: leave



Whatever you do don't just show up in a suite and tie and go with the flow. You gotta over think this man. Work yourself into a frenzy and collect random advice online...thats how future surgeons prep for an awsome second look.

You're welcome.

ROFL, that's priceless. Awesome job man, awesome job.

👍

 

[Castro Viejo]

9am: breakfast, alone if need be. They have patients to see? f*ck them, breakfast is the most important meal of the day
10am: rounds, let them know you can do rounds at 10. They should be trying to impress YOU on a second look right?
11am: first case of the day, at least, the first one you're gonna go to.
11:30am: Tell them you're gonna go see if something more intersting is going on
11:55am: back into the same OR...let them know thier aint **** going on. Ask them if thier done yet. No? Let them know you'll be in the caf. Ask if they want an IceCream bar. No? thier loss.
12:00 noon: Flirt with the hot guy/girl in the cafeteria
12:30 pm: nap
2pm: Try to find the program director
2:15pm: tell the program director the day could have been a lot more organized.
3pm: surf the internet in the residents lounge. Two Girls One Cup? Thats freaking priceless man..show the first female resident you can find. Funny internet videos build shared experiences and create inside jokes you can bond over.
4pm: leave

Wow. You just described what my interns do on a daily basis. 😀

 

[blotto geltaco]

a tie and trousers.

"Trousers?" Good grief, I thought my dowdy old Aunt Laura was the only remaining person that used this word. Of course she also says "dungarees".

 

[Winged Scapula]

"Trousers?" Good grief, I thought my dowdy old Aunt Laura was the only remaining person that used this word. Of course she also says "dungarees".

My grandmother says dungarees.

Ok, well I was using the term trousers (which BTW is a very common term even for younger people than your dowdy Aunt Laura) to distinguish between dress pants and Dockers/casual type pants which many people misinterpret as being "dressed up".

Would it have been better if I said "slacks"?