What do people think about Natural Medicine?

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MedicineNutt

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Do people think that natural products (in substitute of prescription medicine) actually work??? i wonder if all these books published on natural medicine are based on actual lab studies...or are authors just BSing??? would really like to know

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I would like to think that there are natural alternatives to prescription drugs; however, the big debate right now surrounds the lack of regulation of non-prescription drugs. It would be difficult for me, as a physician, to recommend a patient to take a vitamin or supplement if there is no way to knowing what is truly in the supplement.

A few years ago, I was involved with a clinical trial looking at the efficacy of an herbal supplement as a treatment for prostate cancer. The supplement was recalled b/c trace amounts of multiple prescription drugs were found in some lots, including Warfarin, Zanax, and Estradiol (estrogen)...Scary. My confidence has been shaken ever since...
 
If there proven to work they're great. But most are bull****.
 
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I would like to think that there are natural alternatives to prescription drugs; however, the big debate right now surrounds the lack of regulation of non-prescription drugs. It would be difficult for me, as a physician, to recommend a patient to take a vitamin or supplement if there is no way to knowing what is truly in the supplement.

A few years ago, I was involved with a clinical trial looking at the efficacy of an herbal supplement as a treatment for prostate cancer. The supplement was recalled b/c trace amounts of multiple prescription drugs were found in some lots, including Warfarin, Zanax, and Estradiol (estrogen)...Scary. My confidence has been shaken ever since...

hmmmmm...thats really scary stuff for OTC products
 
I do think that taking vitamins and dietary supplements (e.g., fiber, protein) can't hurt, and may be beneficial. Much of the information seems anecdotal. One natural alternative I know works for some with ED is yohimbine. I've heard of doctors recommending saw palmetto for prostate problems. Many natural medicines get their clout from one study that did not claim as much as the marketers say it did.

I do think that prescriptions are not always the best or only solution.

For example, in my abnormal psych book I learned that anti-depressants take around 2 weeks to show effects, which correspond to structural changes in the brain with improved neuronal and synaptic health. These same structural changes have been shown to also occur through Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) just as effectively as in patients given prozac. After treatment, patients receiveing CBT, however, had lower rates of relapse then those given prozac. Using the two in combination makes sense in extreme cases of depression in which prozac can help to jump-start recovery, and CBT can be used to provide long lasting recovery. In mild or moderate cases of depression, CBT is a better long-term solution.

As another example, diabetes can often be minimized or better controlled through losing weight, eating healthy food, and exercise. I know people who have reduced their inusulin intake from 3 times to 1 time per day.

So, I think in many cases, prescriptions should be seen as ONE part of an array of treatments/changes that can affect health outcomes for many diseases. With side-effects and possible withdrawals, they should not always be seen as the first and best answer.
 
Doesn't cinnamon have a therapeutic effect on diabetes? I also think cayenne pepper is effective at reducing blood pressure although I'm not sure. Also, the active compound in taxol was originally found and isolated from a yew tree in the Pacific Northwest.

Clearly, there are a lot of natural supplements which due to some active ingredient have a beneficial health effect. However, a lot of supplements are probably worthless. How about that kid who is having his cancer treated with some type of supplemental therapy in Mexico. I guess we will see how he is in about a year-if it works then maybe this therapy merits a little more research.
 
i don't believe in natural medicine because i think the chemicals in the herbal medicines or methods can be whittled down to a physical process of events. of course, natural supplements are good stuff if you have a deficiency, but without the deficiency, they're useless beyond a placebo effect.

however, naturopathic medicine (or is it homeopathic) that concerns chi/qi flow interests me. i'm not sure if i believe in it wholeheartedly because from my studies, i've seen that a lot of the chi lines coincide with nerves and blood vessels, in which case there would be a physical explanation. just curious as to why this type of medicine apparently works if there's no apparent connection to reality.
 
i don't believe in natural medicine because i think the chemicals in the herbal medicines or methods can be whittled down to a physical process of events. of course, natural supplements are good stuff if you have a deficiency, but without the deficiency, they're useless beyond a placebo effect.

however, naturopathic medicine (or is it homeopathic) that concerns chi/qi flow interests me. i'm not sure if i believe in it wholeheartedly because from my studies, i've seen that a lot of the chi lines coincide with nerves and blood vessels, in which case there would be a physical explanation. just curious as to why this type of medicine apparently works if there's no apparent connection to reality.

I have been getting acupuncture for a few years for a chronic GI issue. I have found great relief from it. Acupuncture is based off of the whole qi, ying/yang energy thing. I dont really know a whole lot about it. All I know is that all of the explanations in chinese and eastern medicine are as old as planet earth. When acupuncture was created there was no way of doing scientific research on how or why it works. I personally think a lot of the explanations I get from my acupuncturist are bull, but I know that it works. I dont know why but it does. Just so you know, qi just means energy, and if you think about it, nerve pathways use energy (chemical/electrical). What I still dont get is why a needle in my leg makes my stomach feel better, but it does. Im sure plecebo plays a role. If anyone wants to know more about acupuncture feel free to PM me.
 
I personally think a lot of the explanations I get from my acupuncturist are bull, but I know that it works. I dont know why but it does.
ahaha yea, i've been an avid martial artist (studying tae kwon do and tai chi thus far) and i've had to believe in chi for my belt examinations. i don't know why it works either. i want to find that out!
 
ahaha yea, i've been an avid martial artist (studying tae kwon do and tai chi thus far) and i've had to believe in chi for my belt examinations. i don't know why it works either. i want to find that out!

It's interesting, since I have been getting the acupuncture for so long now, I can feel these so called "pathways" with much intensity too. When I have had flare ups of my illness, points that I know my acupuncturist uses to treat my gut will ache..and they arent near my gut. Im talking my wrist. Its really weird and interesting and I also wish there was an explanation. My grandfather is a retired IM doc. He was old school (hes 83 now), and if you ask him he will say that he doesnt know why it works but his patients who used acupuncture always found it worked to some extent. As long as its done by someone who knows what their doing, it cant hurt you.
 
I have been getting acupuncture for a few years for a chronic GI issue. I have found great relief from it. Acupuncture is based off of the whole qi, ying/yang energy thing. I dont really know a whole lot about it. All I know is that all of the explanations in chinese and eastern medicine are as old as planet earth. When acupuncture was created there was no way of doing scientific research on how or why it works. I personally think a lot of the explanations I get from my acupuncturist are bull, but I know that it works. I dont know why but it does. Just so you know, qi just means energy, and if you think about it, nerve pathways use energy (chemical/electrical). What I still dont get is why a needle in my leg makes my stomach feel better, but it does. Im sure plecebo plays a role. If anyone wants to know more about acupuncture feel free to PM me.
Here's a theory I've heard in a few classes. A nociceptive (pain) sensory neuron from the painful area excites an interneuron. This same interneuron can be inhibited by another sensory neuron (mechanoreceptor) typically from the same area. This explains why, when you hurt your arm, you instinctively rub it to make it feel better. The pressure stimulation inhibits or reduces the pain stimulation. So, the same principle may be in effect with accupuncture. No proof, of course, but a nice little theory that seems to fit well.
 
If there proven to work they're great. But most are bull****.

Tell that to China's 1.3 billion people that more or less made up that stuff. They'll come marching communism into your house and tattoo Mao on your butt.
 
Here's a theory I've heard in a few classes. A nociceptive (pain) sensory neuron from the painful area excites an interneuron. This same interneuron can be inhibited by another sensory neuron (mechanoreceptor) typically from the same area. This explains why, when you hurt your arm, you instinctively rub it to make it feel better. The pressure stimulation inhibits or reduces the pain stimulation. So, the same principle may be in effect with accupuncture. No proof, of course, but a nice little theory that seems to fit well.

Interesting!
 
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Tell that to China's 1.3 billion people that more or less made up that stuff. They'll come marching communism into your house and tattoo Mao on your butt.

👎 👎 👎 👎

1) yourmom25 is asian
2) not all people in china believe in accupuncture
3) accupuncture was not created in times when communism was around
4) not all chinese believe in communism
5) not all chinese worship mao
 
👎 👎 👎 👎

1) yourmom25 is asian
2) not all people in china believe in accupuncture
3) accupuncture was not created in times when communism was around
4) not all chinese believe in communism
5) not all chinese worship mao


But it's so easy to generalize! It makes you sound intelligent too!
 
ahaha yea, i've been an avid martial artist (studying tae kwon do and tai chi thus far) and i've had to believe in chi for my belt examinations. i don't know why it works either. i want to find that out!

WTF??? BELIEVE IN CHI?? FOR YOUR EXAMS??? Dude, find another school. That's complete and utter bullshido. I used to believe in all that meridian crap and pressure point garbage and relaxing chi into my techniques but really its just more mystical nonsense used by asian businessmen disguised in dobok to keep you from realizing that they're stealing your money while teaching you junk. They better not be teaching you that you can throw fireballs...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=35589361391779303&q=yellow+bamboo
Here's a video of a bunch of chi-huggers that claimed that their chi would repel an incoming attacker and they wouldn't be touched. The attacking guy does BJJ (sorry about the foreign subtitles).

http://www.roxburytaichiacademy.com/video/Kenetic bb.wmv
This one is just... I don't even know what to say.

BTW, what affliation is your TKD... WTF/ITF/ATA/etc?
 
Dude. To quote The Last Samurai: "While we were running around in loin cloths, these people were perfecting the art of war."

West DNE Correct

I'll bet there is something to the chi thing. How about that dude that set himself on fire back in the day?
 
For goodness sake, we don't even know what MOST of the universe is made of. We simply call it "Dark Energy/Matter."
 
The problem is martial arts instructors teaching chi as a form of self defense - putting your life and the lives of the people you could potentially have to protect in something that is not 100% guaranteed or based on faith.

If someone discovers the secret to Chi, can effectively use it in a random, live, NOT PREARRANGED environment with plenty of resistance - such as a full contact event/tournament, then I'll be the first in line to learn it. But no one has. They all hide behind the "masters don't fight" and "we don't give out our secrets" or "martial arts isn't about fighting" bullsh1t. That puts their students in danger, just so they can make a buck or two.
 
I do think that taking vitamins and dietary supplements (e.g., fiber, protein) can't hurt, and may be beneficial. Much of the information seems anecdotal. One natural alternative I know works for some with ED is yohimbine.

Let's stop with yohimbe. It has caused trouble in the past that is well documented - it does increase blood flow to the genital region, but the risks seem hardly worth it in those groups who would seek it's pharmaceutic benefits.

Many herbs do work, but their pharmacologies are undocumented. What do you recommend to a patient, something undocmented - like an herb, or a drug that has been tested? Most pharmaceuticals act on specific receptors - they're tailored that way, but many herbs act on many receptors - making their actions unknown.
 
The problem is martial arts instructors teaching chi as a form of self defense - putting your life and the lives of the people you could potentially have to protect in something that is not 100% guaranteed or based on faith.

If someone discovers the secret to Chi, can effectively use it in a random, live, NOT PREARRANGED environment with plenty of resistance - such as a full contact event/tournament, then I'll be the first in line to learn it. But no one has. They all hide behind the "masters don't fight" and "we don't give out our secrets" or "martial arts isn't about fighting" bullsh1t. That puts their students in danger, just so they can make a buck or two.

Yeah- that does sound a lot like BS.

By the way- it's hard to believe someone would even put those videos up on the internet as a way to sell their product. Not long before they make their way to YouTube.
 
Yeah- that does sound a lot like BS.

By the way- it's hard to believe someone would even put those videos up on the internet as a way to sell their product. Not long before they make their way to YouTube.

Test everything. Most herbals have no damn testing- and we don't know what they interact with either.
 
I'm a big fan of natural medicine. But, it's hard to trust the rigors of the testing that some of these products go through.
 
can you say "PLACEBO EFFECT"

yeah... say it with me now
 
...All I know is that all of the explanations in chinese and eastern medicine are as old as planet earth...

I didn't realize that you youngsters were so conservative.

Seriously, eastern medicine is the 21st century equivalent of snake oil, lapped up by a gullible public conditioned to despise their own culture but to be totally credulous to anything primitive.
 
Can everyone stop calling it "Chi" this isnt a pet name for your chihuahua. Its Qi.
 
"Natural" is a meaningless term.
Yep. Except, in most (practical) cases it means that there are a bunch of impurities in your "medicine". There are lots of constituents other than the active ingredients in herbal preperations. No pharmaceutical company in their right mind would sell a drug that consisted of an active ingredient mixed with a slew of unknown chemicals. Pharma is now trying to produce largely enantiomerically pure drugs. (Heck, they arent even contaminated with themself!).

If an herb acts as an effective drug, someone is going to purify the active compound and make a lot of money.

Whos up for some all natural arsenic....or Radium, it was actually quite popular back in the 1920s-30s...
 
What other kind of medicine is there? Am I studying to practice "artificial" medicine? Is a diabetic supposed to not produce insulin, and what's the point of that?

Nature can be a total goofball. Overrated, if you ask me.
 
unnatural medicine...
actually, i don't consider it medicine at all. thus simply...

unnatural.
 
Tell that to China's 1.3 billion people that more or less made up that stuff. They'll come marching communism into your house and tattoo Mao on your butt.


I said that proven natural product that work i'm for, unproven i would not recommend. so that means that the chinese are coming after me? I wasn't even remotely refer to any chinese treatments. Way to keep on the ball.
 
Here's a theory I've heard in a few classes. A nociceptive (pain) sensory neuron from the painful area excites an interneuron. This same interneuron can be inhibited by another sensory neuron (mechanoreceptor) typically from the same area. This explains why, when you hurt your arm, you instinctively rub it to make it feel better. The pressure stimulation inhibits or reduces the pain stimulation. So, the same principle may be in effect with accupuncture. No proof, of course, but a nice little theory that seems to fit well.

Very nice theory to explain accupuncture...
damn im learnin a lot from this thread...let's keep this going! i wonder if the part that natural medicinists say that pharmacy companies are in it for the profit? i can see this true, but what does everyone think?
 
I hate the term "natural" medicine. Many people feel that "natural" means "good for you." Hemlock is all natural, cocaine is all natural, poison ivy is all natural; but none of them are good for you.

Another thing is that many of our prescription drugs actually originated with herbs. Some scientist finds a new tree in the rain forest and tests the roots, leaves, stems, bark, etc. He finds that the bark cures some cancers and replicates the chemical compound in the lab. And now we have a new medication.

All that said, there are some "complimentary" drugs I use. They help with the side effects of Arimidex.
 
I hate the term "natural" medicine. Many people feel that "natural" means "good for you." Hemlock is all natural, cocaine is all natural, poison ivy is all natural; but none of them are good for you.

Another thing is that many of our prescription drugs actually originated with herbs. Some scientist finds a new tree in the rain forest and tests the roots, leaves, stems, bark, etc. He finds that the bark cures some cancers and replicates the chemical compound in the lab. And now we have a new medication.

All that said, there are some "complimentary" drugs I use. They help with the side effects of Arimidex.

GREAT POINTS! it shouldn't be called natural medicine rather just regular medicine because of healing/complimentary benefits...
 
coal dust is natural - that has to be good for you...

Actually I have taken a multi-vitamin and omega 3 for the last year (after taking bio-chem I freaked out) wasIi getting enough vitamin C...with out that coenzyme my collagen is screwed!

It did drop my cholesterol about 15 points - as a slacker – I avoided to much exercise and only said no to the box of doughnuts occasionally
 
most patients don't know jack about medication..

i had one pt. recently tell me he didn't want tylenol or benadryl because it wasn't natural.. but the intravenous immunoglobulin he was receiving for his CIDP was fine and dandy..
 
WTF??? BELIEVE IN CHI?? FOR YOUR EXAMS??? Dude, find another school. That's complete and utter bullshido. I used to believe in all that meridian crap and pressure point garbage and relaxing chi into my techniques but really its just more mystical nonsense used by asian businessmen disguised in dobok to keep you from realizing that they're stealing your money while teaching you junk. They better not be teaching you that you can throw fireballs...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=35589361391779303&q=yellow+bamboo
Here's a video of a bunch of chi-huggers that claimed that their chi would repel an incoming attacker and they wouldn't be touched. The attacking guy does BJJ (sorry about the foreign subtitles).

http://www.roxburytaichiacademy.com/video/Kenetic bb.wmv
This one is just... I don't even know what to say.

BTW, what affliation is your TKD... WTF/ITF/ATA/etc?


Bullshido representing on SDF...Phrost would be proud.

Good luck on your pre-med studies.



If any of you are curious about supplements, you could always contact one of the "practitioner-line" companies and press them for information. Thorne and Biogenesis are the two companies I remember.


Actually I like Biogenesis because I can get "teh practitioner-line protein powder" at wholesale prices.


I always wondered how supplements fit into the whole "natural medicine" thing.
 
"Natural" is a meaningless term.

Bingo!

I challenge anyone here to provide a concrete and meaningful definition of the word "natural." I could argue that exercising to prevent cardiovascular disease is "unnatural" because it sabotages the "natural" course of disease. Similar, I could argue that hydrochlorothiazide is "natural" because it is a "natural" emergent property of human technological history.

Medical technologies bourne of scientific inquiry have become increasingly effective...making those which are not scientifically justified look worse and worse.
 
For anyone who is truely interested in efficacy testing of "naturopathic", "natural", "alternative", whatever the heck you want to call it medicine, check out the NIH website below. They have been testing them for a couple years now. Most have been proven completely ineffective or even detrimental, but there are a few that have worked and are being explored further.

http://nccam.nih.gov/
 
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