What do to next?

[srivastk]

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I am a applicant in the current cycle (MD) and things aren't looking too great for me. I'm looking for some advice about what I should do if I am not accepted.


Here's a little bit about me. I graduated with cGPA 3.4 and sGPA 3.2, with honors, a good amount clinical experience (autism tutor, PACU volunteer, hospice volunteer), and 3+ years of clinical psychology research (10+ poster presentations, 2 publications). Realizing my academic weakness I did the postbacc program at UPenn and got a 3.9 s/cGPA, while working as a research assistant for a domestic violence grant (later promoted to the primary counselor at a community health center). My MCAT is in the mid-30's. Happy that I took the iniative to address and tackle my weakness before applying, I was confident in my application. I still applied broadly (most lower-tier and a few high-tier) and applied early (mid-June). Seeing how things are going, I'm feeling discouraged and disheartened. I received 3 interviews (1 rejection; 1 waitlist; 1 waiting to hear).


I am still hopeful about hearing back from my last interview and realize I could maybe get another one, though I think this is unlikely since I applied so early. I have always wanted to be a doctor and have worked so hard for the last several years and I'm concerned about how long its taking me to get into medical school. Time should not be a large concern when pursuing your dream but I can imagine feeling embarrassed and beat down if I matriculate as a 27 year old not because I'm a career changed but because my grades in college weren't perfect and it took my years to "fix" it. The worst is having to explain whats going on to my family and friends and watching my peers continue on w/ med school while I'm essentially stuck behind.


Anyhow, sorry for my venting. Here is what I'm considering



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1. MPH, I have applied to a few MPH programs that begins Fall 2011. This is the option I am most leaning towards. If I take more time to basically improve my application I want to get something out of it (unlike my post bacc). I do have a genuine interest in getting an MPH and just in case I don't re-apply in two years, I will have a solid and useful degree under my belt. Only con is that I won't be applying again til the 2013 cycle.

2. Take more postbacc courses. I'm not sure how much more I will get out of taking more upper level science courses and its expensive. Also, I wouldn't be applying until the 2013 cycle anyway (so I have another year of post bacc classes done before applying).

3. If getting more clinical experience would help my application, I may be good to apply in the upcoming 2012 cycle since I've been working full-time as a health advocate and domestic violence counselor throughout the 2011 cycle. However, I'm not sure if more clinical experience will compensate for academic weakness.

4. Any other ideas??

Thanks in advance!

 

[dragonfly99]

I'm not sure I understand what is going on. It's either that your undergrad GPA is still holding you back, or that there is something else wrong in your application. I would think that a UPenn postbac w/3.9 with mid 30's MCAT would help overcome some of the lower undergrad GPA, but I've never been on an admissions committee. I also don't know anything about the UPenn postbac program. What is their acceptance rate into med schools?

What was your GPA after taking the postbac? I mean cumulative GPA.

Did the postbac include retaking organic chem, upper level bio courses where you may have not done well previously?

Did you ask the UPenn people (who ran the postbac program) for help with your application (such as gathering good LOR's, looking at your personal statement, etc.)?

Did you call up the school that interviewed you and rejected you, to find out what they have to say about your application? How many schools did you apply to (to get the 3 interviews)? Did you apply to any osteopathic med schools?

 

[Bombrainiac]

Doesn't make sense. You should be competitive for med schools. I would think you should get in somewhere.

If you don't get in, you should seriously consider going for the MPH, and then re-applying. Also, you need to try to find out what your letters of recommendation were--it may be that you have some damning letters and you could be oblivious. You may need to find some new people to write your LORs. I've sat on a medical school admissions committee, and trust me when I tell you that letters of recommendation can make or break you.

 

[srivastk]

I'm not sure I understand what is going on. It's either that your undergrad GPA is still holding you back, or that there is something else wrong in your application. I would think that a UPenn postbac w/3.9 with mid 30's MCAT would help overcome some of the lower undergrad GPA, but I've never been on an admissions committee. I also don't know anything about the UPenn postbac program. What is their acceptance rate into med schools?

What was your GPA after taking the postbac? I mean cumulative GPA.

Did the postbac include retaking organic chem, upper level bio courses where you may have not done well previously?

Did you ask the UPenn people (who ran the postbac program) for help with your application (such as gathering good LOR's, looking at your personal statement, etc.)?

Did you call up the school that interviewed you and rejected you, to find out what they have to say about your application? How many schools did you apply to (to get the 3 interviews)? Did you apply to any osteopathic med schools?

Thanks for your thoughts.

cGPA after the postbac was 3.5 (sGPA 3.4) During my postbacc I mostly took upper level courses (not retaking pre-reqs). During undergrad I did poorly on Orgo 1 (which I repeated) and intro Bio (tried to compensate w/ numerous upper level bios).

I don't have an exact number but acceptance to medical school after the Penn Postbacc is high. I'm thinking at least 75%. Most of the help I got w/ my application was from my undegrad institution. I am confident than 3 of my LOR's were very good (PI's I worked very closely with and who openly discussed their letters). Its the required science letters which may have gotten me, since I didn't know the teachers well but did really good in their classes.

From the few schools I have contacted after rejection, they have all fingered my low grades as a red flag. No mention of LOR's or poor writing (though this may be possible). I applied to 35 schools! 🙂/), no D.O.'s. I don't want to see D.O. schools as a back up and decided I would only apply if I was 100% into their approach--something I may consider for the next cycle.

 

[srivastk]

Doesn't make sense. You should be competitive for med schools. I would think you should get in somewhere.

If you don't get in, you should seriously consider going for the MPH, and then re-applying. Also, you need to try to find out what your letters of recommendation were--it may be that you have some damning letters and you could be oblivious. You may need to find some new people to write your LORs. I've sat on a medical school admissions committee, and trust me when I tell you that letters of recommendation can make or break you.

Thank you, I appreciate your advice. I just mentioned in my previous post that I'm unsure about the outcome of my 2 science letters. When approaching them, I made it clear that they should only accept if they believe they can write a positive and informative letter about me. In accepting, I trusted that they did so, but I guess I will never know!

 

[dragonfly99]

If most of your letters were from PI's of science or psychology labs, that could be part of your problem. Sometimes these people don't know how to write a LOR for med school. They may have written it about how great a researcher you are, etc. This would fly well for PhD or MS programs, but for MD the admissions committee may want to hear more about how you would be a good person for treating patients. I don't know if this is the case, but it is worth considering.

Also, have you asked U Penn people for help with your application. They may have insight into which MD programs more commonly accept their postbac people.

I agree w/some of the above comments. I too am worried about something in your LOR(s) and/or personal statement. Although it could just be your past GPA that is holding you back, it seems unlikely this was the only thing, since you applied to so many schools.

35 schools is quite a few. Did you apply early and how many interviews did you get? Did you apply to schools with lower average GPA's, or did you apply to a lot of ivy league type meds schools in the northeast which are going to get a lot of applicants?

 

[srivastk]

If most of your letters were from PI's of science or psychology labs, that could be part of your problem. Sometimes these people don't know how to write a LOR for med school. They may have written it about how great a researcher you are, etc. This would fly well for PhD or MS programs, but for MD the admissions committee may want to hear more about how you would be a good person for treating patients. I don't know if this is the case, but it is worth considering.

Also, have you asked U Penn people for help with your application. They may have insight into which MD programs more commonly accept their postbac people.

I agree w/some of the above comments. I too am worried about something in your LOR(s) and/or personal statement. Although it could just be your past GPA that is holding you back, it seems unlikely this was the only thing, since you applied to so many schools.

35 schools is quite a few. Did you apply early and how many interviews did you get? Did you apply to schools with lower average GPA's, or did you apply to a lot of ivy league type meds schools in the northeast which are going to get a lot of applicants?

I applied late-June. I have received in total 3 interviews of 35 schools total. I applied to most or all of the schools in the midwest and east coast with lower average GPA's that didn't have in-state applicant preferences.. I did apply to a few ivy league schools just to see what could happen.

Thanks for your advice. I never thought of PI's as letter writers to be potentially negative. I asked them for letters since they knew me the best of all my professors, though they were both non-science letters. I will definitely keep this and focusing on having my personal statement reviewed by more people, should I reapply.

 

[Johnny_D]

Rather than taking more post-bacc courses, apply to one of the programs in which you take 1st year med school courses along side of the students. Drexel has one called the IMS program. If you do well, you have shown the committees that you can handle the med school load. I am sure there are other programs like this.

 

[andrewsmack05]

Rather than taking more post-bacc courses, apply to one of the programs in which you take 1st year med school courses along side of the students. Drexel has one called the IMS program. If you do well, you have shown the committees that you can handle the med school load. I am sure there are other programs like this.

I googled this, and I couldnt find a list of schools that would do something like this. Is there a list of any sort out there that would have information pertaining to these types of programs?

 

[nabeel76]

I googled this, and I couldnt find a list of schools that would do something like this. Is there a list of any sort out there that would have information pertaining to these types of programs?

These programs are typically called Special Masters Programs (SMP's), so if you do a search using that term you should be able to come up with a list of them. There are also numerous threads that discuss the differences between and the requirements for, practically every one of them here on sdn. I believe the first and one of the most popular one's is the Georgetown SMP program which is completed in 1 year and has a pretty high acceptance rate to medical schools the following year.

 

[nabeel76]

Thanks for your thoughts.


From the few schools I have contacted after rejection, they have all fingered my low grades as a red flag. No mention of LOR's or poor writing (though this may be possible).

I am not sure why you are not getting into medical schools, your GPA including your postbacc does not seem too low to me. It definitely doesn't seem like it should be a red flag?

Unless there is no solid upward trend? Was your junior and senior year GPA lower than your freshman and Sophmore years? How long was the postbacc? If you only have 30 credits of postbacc, then the 3.9 GPA might not be weighted enough to overcome either a downward or complete lack of trend during your undergraduate years. I would say that you need at least 2-3 years of solid grades to overcome a priorly low GPA. What is your cGPA over the past 2-3 years of coursework?

As for the LOR's - I always recommend trying to improve them, since neutral letters can be as devastating as bad letters. However, since you did get 3 interviews I would venture to say that they probably aren't bad. I would still try and replace the science letters with new ones from teachers that you know a little better.

P.S. If schools are telling you that your GPA does happen to be the problem, than a MPH is NOT going to help you overcome this. Your options then are to 1) take more postbacc classes 2) Do a SMP or 3) Do a MS in one of the hard sciences

 

[CecilJacobson]

At the school's where you interviewed (or will interview)-- Anything short of an acceptance and you should schedule a meeting with the dean of admissions. Sit down with him/her with your resume in-hand. Ask him/her what you should do to be considered a strong candidate for the school. Get your step-by-step instructions and DO THEM.

I went through a year as an "angry young man" and didn't do the smart thing. It seems that you're quite a bit more mature. At the end of the day even if you identify a weakness and aim to correct it, the only opinion that matters is that of the Adcom. If Dean ______ says do an SMP, do an SMP. If Dean _____ says focus on why you want to be a doctor, and work on expressing that better in an interview setting... do that.

Good Luck. Your stats are strong and your dedication through the post-bacc is pretty crazy. You will make this work.

The problem might be that the schools don't see you as a serious applicant. A visit to the school to meet with the dean or a personal letter might tip the scales.

-C.J.

 

[Zarika]

There are a lot of SMP's out there, however I've heard decent things about Tulane's:

http://tulane.edu/som/departments/scb/acp.cfm

It's only for people that are already on a waitlist at another med school. It's also relatively "inexpensive" for a SMP and 85% of the students then matriculate into Tulane the next year. (You don't have to repeat the classes you've already taken.)

Honestly, you already have a strong post-bac GPA. If Tulane's doesn't interest you, I think you want to look for SMP's that have very strong linkages to their medical school. For example, I believe (although not 100% sure so don't quote me on this) that although Georgetown and Drexel's SMP's are well known and well-respected they are huge, so many many applicants from their SMP's don't get into their own medical school.

 

[dragonfly99]

Agree with the above advice about going back to the adcoms of the 3 schools where you got interviews, and find out what they thought was wrong. I think your application was strong enough to have gotten more interviews than you did. Perhaps it was just the GPA, but if you really applied to 35 places I'm finding that a little hard to swallow, with the 35 MCAT. I'm wondering if you can "spin" your past volunteer experiences better next year, or somehow get a LOR from a physician who works with patients (not a researcher), because I'm worried that the adcoms may be seeing you more as a clinical psychology PhD student or neuroscientist/PhD type. Your job is to make them see a future doctor when they look at you sitting in that interview chair (if that is truly your career goal).

You may need to do mock interviews, also. I hate those also, but they may show you if you are looking nervous, etc.

I don't necessarily disagree with trying to get into some SMP program linked into MD program, either, although that really wasn't commonly done back in my day (when I applied). I think it's pretty common now. You seem like the type of person they would accept, but I think even if you get in, there are probably some things about your application, other than your GPA, that could be retooled.

 

[srivastk]

Thank you to everyone for your advice. I'm going to look into SMP's and also try to get some feedback from the schools I interviewed at. One school already told me that they don't provide any interview or application feedback (seems like I always run into the exceptions that never help), but I am going to contact the other one.

To others who are interested in SMP's, there are many, if not all of them, listed at this site: http://services.aamc.org/postbac/getprogs.cfm

 

[Mindscrew]

just out of curiousity, have you had your essay read over by a few different people?

 

[srivastk]

just out of curiousity, have you had your essay read over by a few different people?

I only had help from one person (my clinical supervisor who is an excellent writer). Who else would you suggest should have read it? Many people have said friends, and I would consider letting friends review it for grammar but not so much content.