What do you do when attendings don't sign out with you?

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Playmate2002

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In my initial months of surg path, I was assigned to a service where one of the attendings would not sign-out with me. Each time that I asked to sign-out, he told me that he was "too busy." 30-40% of my cases would be assigned to him. Some of the other residents have experienced the same problem. I informed the head of AP and the PD about this and there was no improvement. I print the final path reports and review the cases myself after he has verified the reports. I am assigned to this service again in the upcoming months. 40% of my surg path training is completed on this service. Is there anything stipulating that attendings sign-out at least some of the cases with the resident?
 
I'm sure your senior residents have dealt w/ the same issue. How did they handle it? It appears that complaining to the PD hasn't done much since it's been an ongoing problem. What has your PD suggested?

As much as I hate to say this, it's possible that you'll just have to suck it up. You're still able to sign out cases w/ other attendings, so it's not like you're getting no exposure. Until something changes, just maximize your learning experience w/ the other doctors.


----- Antony
 
In my initial months of surg path, I was assigned to a service where one of the attendings would not sign-out with me. Each time that I asked to sign-out, he told me that he was "too busy." 30-40% of my cases would be assigned to him. Some of the other residents have experienced the same problem. I informed the head of AP and the PD about this and there was no improvement. I print the final path reports and review the cases myself after he has verified the reports. I am assigned to this service again in the upcoming months. 40% of my surg path training is completed on this service. Is there anything stipulating that attendings sign-out at least some of the cases with the resident?

...So you just put the cases on their queue and that's it? They just sign out the cases on their own at a later date? That sounds pretty terrible to me. Unless the attending is a big jerk, then it's probably good.
 
At my program, the PD (if he knew about this) would make sure that attending gave you the opportunity to preview cases before signout and sit with the attending. This means the PD isn't doing his job or the attending is a jerk.
 
Depends on how far you want to take it. It doesn't appear to me that, strictly speaking, you should be able to count those cases towards your 2000 minimum total -- even if that's weakly debateable by the letter of the pathology standards, I can't see how it fits the spirit of ACGME's intent.

Separate and apart from that is the financial issue. This individual is most likely getting paid an academic salary/supplement or at least that practice is getting additional income for teaching. If they're failing to live up to those obligations then their problem is a lot bigger.

Unfortunately you're in a crap position because if you yell loud enough and long enough to someone who can do something about it, you risk things like the program closing/being closed, or being saddled with woefully disgruntled faculty. If the former, you're actually in a good position to transfer -- as good as any, anyway. The latter is considerably less pleasant. There's also the possibility that the problem will be properly fixed and everyone can move on without things becoming terribly radical.

Personally, my level of tolerance for that kind of thing, if it's as you describe and I envision, is quite low, and I'd start documenting your complaints (calls, letters, emails, meetings, summarize what you said and were told, & date) and their results (every time you asked and did or did not get attending sign-out, etc.), and work your way up the ladder from PD, AP director, department chair, etc. until you're talking to a dean/local GME or the ACGME, or something improves. Ideally you would be able to get some more residents willing to walk the walk with you. Having been through something similar but in an undergrad program, documentation and having some other people on board saying the same thing is very important when you start considering basically badmouthing faculty to their superiors.

I'm not a big fan of the passive-aggressive approach of taking all their cases afterwards and going around to every other attending in the department and asking something about each and every dadgum one while mumbling about how X wouldn't look at them with you. But it happens, and is a probably effective if slimy way of manipulating the situation.

In general, these kinds of problems tend to go away with a few meetings & chit-chats with the right people in a professional way, and a little flexibility in setting up times to work with the attending, without all of the ornery stuff which has the potential to get unpleasant. But if multiple complaints to the PD and honest attempts to work things out with the attending continue to be met with active avoidance of teaching, then I'd get more serious. They're not doing you a favor by signing out with you -- it's their job.

If you feel like you really, really don't want to risk pushing the envelope, then I agree with previewing, writing your thoughts (don't just think them, actually make the commitment and write them somewhere -- in pathology, phrasing matters as much as being "generally" correct), and post-viewing with the final signed-out report. Take the ones where you're wrong and aren't sure why and either go to the sign-out attending and ask just about those ones, or if he still refuses then take them to your PD/AP director and ask for some teaching -- I don't see a problem with that. And of course make all the more of your other opportunities to sign-out with a teaching pathologist.
 
In my initial months of surg path, I was assigned to a service where one of the attendings would not sign-out with me. Each time that I asked to sign-out, he told me that he was "too busy." 30-40% of my cases would be assigned to him. Some of the other residents have experienced the same problem. I informed the head of AP and the PD about this and there was no improvement. I print the final path reports and review the cases myself after he has verified the reports. I am assigned to this service again in the upcoming months. 40% of my surg path training is completed on this service. Is there anything stipulating that attendings sign-out at least some of the cases with the resident?

Dear Playmate

This is an issue for the ACGME, they will review your program at some point. Let them know this. In the meantime, complain anyway you can. This is not educational. You will complete residency and not know anything. YOu have to do something.
 
In my initial months of surg path, I was assigned to a service where one of the attendings would not sign-out with me. Each time that I asked to sign-out, he told me that he was "too busy." 30-40% of my cases would be assigned to him. Some of the other residents have experienced the same problem. I informed the head of AP and the PD about this and there was no improvement. I print the final path reports and review the cases myself after he has verified the reports. I am assigned to this service again in the upcoming months. 40% of my surg path training is completed on this service. Is there anything stipulating that attendings sign-out at least some of the cases with the resident?

Dear Playmate

This is an issue for the ACGME, they will review your program at some point. Let them know this. In the meantime, complain anyway you can. This is not educational. You will complete residency and not know anything. YOu have to do something.
 
I concur with pathstudent. this scenario is unacceptable.
 
I concur with pathstudent. this scenario is unacceptable.

I concur as well. This attending should not be in an academic setting if they are not willing to teach. Everyone is busy, but a job in academia requires the instruction of students, residents, and fellows. Do what you can to report this attending higher up on the chain if your PD won't do anything about it.
 
There is really nothing to be done, Ive seen this a few times in my training...for different reasons.

There really is no one to turn to. Do the best you can to learn pathology, heck Im not going to pretend it will be easy for you.

Plan on a doing a solid fellowship or even 2.
 
This is very common. Sometimes the issue is not about sitting with the attending or not. It is about whether the attending teaches you and explains things to you over the microscope or not. In my training, I had neither one due to different reasons. I finished my residency with "big" deficiencies and ended up doing two fellowships. I felt I can go for practice only by the end of the 2nd fellowship.

You have to work very hard to overcome this situation. There is nothing to do about it. You cannot "force" people to teach you. The reasons I encountered for not doing the sign out with the residents were:
- Personality issues. This occurred in the intro-verted/ self-centered attendings (there are many of them in field of pathology).
- Lack of confidence. This occurred in the junior attendings.
- Being non-academic. Many attendings do not have passion for teaching.
- Being busy (or claiming to be busy). This is may be the most common cause. Many attendings claim that signing out with residents slow them down.
 
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Agree with above comments. What a ridiculous situation for you to be put in. Pathstudent is right that you should make major complaints on ACGME survey...it is anonymous and the program HAS to respond if ACGME tells them they have deficiencies. KCShaw has excellent advice as well.

If I might make an additional suggestion, I would recommend posting info about this experience on the pathology wiki under your program's page. It is anonymous and the wiki exists so that future applicants can see the "real" situation in programs. I hope the wiki will one day have enough influence that negative feedback will pressure PD's and Chairs to actually DO something about such anti-academic situations as this.

Here is the link: http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Pathology_Fellowship_Directory.

Jerad
 
This happens. It is not uncommmon. The ACGME may pretend they care, but ultimately won't do much. And complaining ad nauseum will only get you a bad reputation. I would try cherry picking a couple of good cases and going to the guy and saying, "I saw how you signed these out, I've looked over the slides, and wondered when would be a good time for me to ask a few specific questions to make sure I understand some things..." This is harder to say no to than an entire sign-out. Good luck.
 
There is really nothing to be done, Ive seen this a few times in my training...for different reasons.

There really is no one to turn to. Do the best you can to learn pathology, heck Im not going to pretend it will be easy for you.

Plan on a doing a solid fellowship or even 2.

unacceptable response. a fellowship "or two" is an insult to the intelligence of active residents. this resident is clearly in a **** situation where "fellowships" may be necessary because their residency training is clearly lacking . . .. the fault in this situation falls on that department.

well trained residents DO NOT need more than one fellowship, if that.

i said it .

-p
 
If anyone knows of a program that is looking for transfer applicants, please let me know.
 
unacceptable response. a fellowship "or two" is an insult to the intelligence of active residents. this resident is clearly in a **** situation where "fellowships" may be necessary because their residency training is clearly lacking . . .. the fault in this situation falls on that department.

well trained residents DO NOT need more than one fellowship, if that.

i said it .

-p

What do you want me to tell you?? The world isnt fair? It sucks? Academia, government and the unions are conspiring to enslave us all?

Its all true, but there isnt much that be done aside from armed revolution guys. Which may happen one day, but for now we wait.

By the way, I want to alert every path SDN poster that on medical staff applications for hospitals they specifically state "Have you every left, either voluntarily or involuntarily, a residency training program without completing it?"

Just FYI that program hopping can be much more dangerous than simply transferring from Greendale Community College to State...
 
What do you want me to tell you?? The world isnt fair? It sucks? Academia, government and the unions are conspiring to enslave us all?

Its all true, but there isnt much that be done aside from armed revolution guys. Which may happen one day, but for now we wait.

By the way, I want to alert every path SDN poster that on medical staff applications for hospitals they specifically state "Have you every left, either voluntarily or involuntarily, a residency training program without completing it?"

Just FYI that program hopping can be much more dangerous than simply transferring from Greendale Community College to State...

Playmate, I would not be overly concerned with the credentialing issue. Having sat on credential committees and medical executive committes it would not bother me if someone VOLUNTARILY left/switched/jumped residencies if there was a semblance of a decent reason such as you seem to have.
 
What do you want me to tell you?? The world isnt fair? It sucks? Academia, government and the unions are conspiring to enslave us all?

Its all true, but there isnt much that be done aside from armed revolution guys. Which may happen one day, but for now we wait.

By the way, I want to alert every path SDN poster that on medical staff applications for hospitals they specifically state "Have you every left, either voluntarily or involuntarily, a residency training program without completing it?"

Just FYI that program hopping can be much more dangerous than simply transferring from Greendale Community College to State...


Reality sets in. The academic types fall off their high-horses. Playmate, there are places where the residents cut a full load for two days to read half a load on the third day.
 
What do you want me to tell you?? The world isnt fair? It sucks? Academia, government and the unions are conspiring to enslave us all?

Its all true, but there isnt much that be done aside from armed revolution guys. Which may happen one day, but for now we wait.

By the way, I want to alert every path SDN poster that on medical staff applications for hospitals they specifically state "Have you every left, either voluntarily or involuntarily, a residency training program without completing it?"

Just FYI that program hopping can be much more dangerous than simply transferring from Greendale Community College to State...

sure. i'm just saying that this situation the OP described is not something to "grin and bear" . . . if said person wants to be trained, they will have to demand the attention of their attendings.
 
Believe it or not at our institution this is a common scenario. And we all, as residents, adapt very quickly.

You can learn a lot from the cases themselves.

What I do on a daily basis:
1)Preview.
2)Line up cases that I have specific questions about.
3)Signout - the varies depending on the amount of time the attending has available for double scoping. Be sure to ask your questions.
4)Leave the rest of the cases.
5)Look again at the cases after they have been signed out. If you missed something, wip out the book and read a little.
6)If you haven't convinced yourself that the attending didn't miss something or have the correct diagnosis, bring the case back and ask again.

If you have a question on just about every case - pick the ones that are the most important to you and start there.

But the most important thing about this process is that you are looking at a lot. Don't just sit idle - find study sets and pair them with reading.

As residents it's ever too easy to expect to be spoon fed diagnoses. But it is possible to become a great resident with this model of learning; we do it every day. Get your hands on every single case that you can and after a while things will start to click.
 
What do you want me to tell you?? The world isnt fair? It sucks? Academia, government and the unions are conspiring to enslave us all?

Its all true, but there isnt much that be done aside from armed revolution guys. Which may happen one day, but for now we wait.

By the way, I want to alert every path SDN poster that on medical staff applications for hospitals they specifically state "Have you every left, either voluntarily or involuntarily, a residency training program without completing it?"

Just FYI that program hopping can be much more dangerous than simply transferring from Greendale Community College to State...

Having transferred between residency programs between PGY1 and 2, I have first hand experience with having to make sure I dont gloss over that question when applying/renewing hospital privileges, lab signout privileges, state medical licenses, etc. However, it has never been an issue beyond checking the right box and adding a piece of paper explaining that I tranferred residencies in good standing. No one has ever made an issue of it or delayed my application because of it.
 
Believe it or not at our institution this is a common scenario. And we all, as residents, adapt very quickly.

You can learn a lot from the cases themselves.

What I do on a daily basis:
1)Preview.
2)Line up cases that I have specific questions about.
3)Signout - the varies depending on the amount of time the attending has available for double scoping. Be sure to ask your questions.
4)Leave the rest of the cases.
5)Look again at the cases after they have been signed out. If you missed something, wip out the book and read a little.
6)If you haven't convinced yourself that the attending didn't miss something or have the correct diagnosis, bring the case back and ask again.

If you have a question on just about every case - pick the ones that are the most important to you and start there.

But the most important thing about this process is that you are looking at a lot. Don't just sit idle - find study sets and pair them with reading.

As residents it's ever too easy to expect to be spoon fed diagnoses. But it is possible to become a great resident with this model of learning; we do it every day. Get your hands on every single case that you can and after a while things will start to click.

Generally, good advice.
 
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