What do you know about Cornell program?

[rajvosa]

I am interested to hear about malignancy/hours and the resident autonomy issue. Do they get any service patients? Can you learn when you act as the private attending's secretary?
I also heard that the athmosphere is very conservative.

My dillema is NYU Vs. Cornell but I want to hear your opinion about Cornell mostly.



Thanks

 

[lurkerboy]

I have the same question, basically. I know Cornell is as different as possible from NYU. Having been to NYU, I know the residents end up being very self-confident and independent. Cornell is very private and specialty-based, while at NYU the medicine intern is the primary care-giver. I am interviewing at Cornell this week, so I'll post my thoughts. On paper, Cornell seems to rock (housing, research, and reputation)

 

[rajvosa]

My comparison of these 2 programs (I may be wrong):



Cons (Cornell):
Cornell seems to be more malignant
(They start you on june 14th instead of july 1st).

No night flow for interns (That sucks).

When you are a resident you admit till 10 and probably out by 1am.

No research opportunities in the 1st 2 years (there is a 2 week elective during your intern year and none in your 2nd year). How do they apply for fellowships?

Private patients (autonomy?)

No union






Pros:

Better reputation than NYU

Housing





NYU:

Pros:

Great autonomy (everybody is "service")

Great nightflow (on your call days you are out by 6pm).

Unionized housestuff

You can do research in your 2nd year.



Cons:

Housing, housing, housing

Bit lower reputation than Cornell



ANYBODY ELSE WOULD LIKE TO ADD ANYTHING ELSE?

 

[lurkerboy]

I agree with most of what you say, however:
1. cornell did not seem "malignant" to me. The residents appear happy and they don't get run into the ground, from what i can tell. q4 overnight coverage doesn't sound like fun though. bellevue's mediocre ancillary services could be considered a malignant aspect of nyu's program.

2. cornell still does reasonably well with fellowships despite lack of elective time early on.

Also, I'll add:
Residents spontaneously told me about how much they liked the NYU residents they worked with at Sloan-Kettering. They said they were always the ones who could handle the tough codes, line placement, etc...

The Cornell residents, don't seem as tight-knit as the NYU residents. I think the "bellevue-experience" adds a lot to the camraderie there.

The two programs serve very different populations (wealthy vs. lower-class @ BH)

Cornell seems "hands off" for the interns while Bellevue is very hands-on.

Cornell seems to produce the academic, research oriented clinician while NYU produces hot-shot docs who can handle crazy situations, but don't always know the details of why it works. It just depends on what you want to become.

Bellevue is a "diamond in the rough" and you will either love it or hate it. With NYU's new chairman, influx of research faculty, and new research building, the program is definitely raising its level of academic rigor..but you simply cannot read up on all of your patients if you are having to worry about phlebotomy missing your blood draws.

Both do well with fellowships so its a tough choice.

Originally posted by rajvosa
My comparison of these 2 programs (I may be wrong):



Cons (Cornell):
Cornell seems to be more malignant
(They start you on june 14th instead of july 1st).

No night flow for interns (That sucks).

When you are a resident you admit till 10 and probably out by 1am.

No research opportunities in the 1st 2 years (there is a 2 week elective during your intern year and none in your 2nd year). How do they apply for fellowships?

Private patients (autonomy?)

No union






Pros:

Better reputation than NYU

Housing





NYU:

Pros:

Great autonomy (everybody is "service")

Great nightflow (on your call days you are out by 6pm).

Unionized housestuff

You can do research in your 2nd year.



Cons:

Housing, housing, housing

Bit lower reputation than Cornell



ANYBODY ELSE WOULD LIKE TO ADD ANYTHING ELSE?

 

[vitaminj]

When I interviewed at Cornell, an intern commented to me "they work us pretty hard here", with patient loads consistently at or near cap. This was the rumor I had heard. It didn't seem malignant though. I was however not overly impressed with the PD. Private services seemed pretty annoying. I think the day I was there I was a little blinded by the thought of living in that neighborhood for such a good price, upon reflection I realized I really didn't like the program all that much. Kind of important when you are filling out your ROL.

Didn't apply to NYU.

 

[rajvosa]

I agree with Lukerboy.


I said that Cornell is malignant mostly because of the call schedule. At NYU you are almost never overnight. (Even NYU Unit call is q4 and not q3 like at the other hospitals).

Also Cornell's fellowship match list seems to be somewhat better.

When I asked about the percentage of service Vs. private I got few different replies: 50% service (intern), 25% service (my interviewer).

 

[walrus]

o.k. Im a cornell resident and I'm here to answer any questions/ set the record straight.

Cornell is a terrific program, IHO definitely the strongest in the city and one of the best in the country. The hospital is gorgeous, the residents here are all top notch (almost everyone was AOA), our match list is superb, the housing is dynamite. We all get TONS of "hands on" training in addition to academics. So yes, we know how to run a code AND we can tell you how and why each of the meds we give works AND we can cite the recent journal articles that compare one med to another.

As for other programs in the city, Columbia is outstanding as well. NYU is very good, but clearly not on the same level as Cornell and Columbia. I know many NYU residents and I've worked with many at Sloan Kettering. Yeah, they're pretty good at putting in IV's and such, but they are definitely not as medically knowledgable as Cornell residents. Bellevue is too crazy for them to be able to learn hands on stuff and book stuff. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Cornell residency applicants could all clearly match at NYU if they wanted to, but they really are a higher caliber. The NYU program is on par with programs like Sinai, BU, BI Deaconess, Tufts, Yale, while Cornell is on par with the other top programs like Columbia, Brigham, Penn, etc. As an example, simply take a look at where the AOA aplicants from NYU Med School choose to go for residency. None of them stay at NYU. They all go to places like Cornell, Columbia, Brigham, Mass Gen. UCSF. That should tell you something.

Oh and about the call schedule: NYU residents NEVER get out at 6pm on call days. More like midnight if they're lucky. In fact, they were staying so late that the program had to change around its call schedule b/c they were about the be fined for breaking the 8 hours between shifts rule of the ACGME.

At Cornell we're q4 over night and I think everyone here loves it. ACGME rules apply here too so the interns get sent home by 10 am on their post call days. I don't know anyone here who thinks they work too many hours!

NYU is a solid program and if it makes you happy, go for it!

 

[lurkerboy]

Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[rajvosa]

Originally posted by walrus
o.k. Im a cornell resident and I'm here to answer any questions/ set the record straight.

Cornell is a terrific program, IHO definitely the strongest in the city and one of the best in the country. The hospital is gorgeous, the residents here are all top notch (almost everyone was AOA), our match list is superb, the housing is dynamite. We all get TONS of "hands on" training in addition to academics. So yes, we know how to run a code AND we can tell you how and why each of the meds we give works AND we can cite the recent journal articles that compare one med to another.

As for other programs in the city, Columbia is outstanding as well. NYU is very good, but clearly not on the same level as Cornell and Columbia. I know many NYU residents and I've worked with many at Sloan Kettering. Yeah, they're pretty good at putting in IV's and such, but they are definitely not as medically knowledgable as Cornell residents. Bellevue is too crazy for them to be able to learn hands on stuff and book stuff. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Cornell residency applicants could all clearly match at NYU if they wanted to, but they really are a higher caliber. The NYU program is on par with programs like Sinai, BU, BI Deaconess, Tufts, Yale, while Cornell is on par with the other top programs like Columbia, Brigham, Penn, etc. As an example, simply take a look at where the AOA aplicants from NYU Med School choose to go for residency. None of them stay at NYU. They all go to places like Cornell, Columbia, Brigham, Mass Gen. UCSF. That should tell you something.

Oh and about the call schedule: NYU residents NEVER get out at 6pm on call days. More like midnight if they're lucky. In fact, they were staying so late that the program had to change around its call schedule b/c they were about the be fined for breaking the 8 hours between shifts rule of the ACGME.

At Cornell we're q4 over night and I think everyone here loves it. ACGME rules apply here too so the interns get sent home by 10 am on their post call days. I don't know anyone here who thinks they work too many hours!

NYU is a solid program and if it makes you happy, go for it!

I am so glad that somebody from Cornell replied. While I agree with most of your post regarding the prestege I do not agree that almost "everybody there is an AOA". Well, at least not from my school in the last few years since I follow this process. Also you have few foreign graduates (Germany, Argentina, Israel) and they are not AOAs since that does not exist there. Actually, a former intern told me that probably around 40% has AOA. Anyway, that's not so important.

I also doubt that people like to be q4 overnight. What few recent graduates told me that, although you have a day off, you never leave in the morning (more like 2pm). Maybe that's changed.

While I think NYU has a better training than Cornell (well, I think Jacobi has the best one in NYC if we look at the variety of cases and resident's autonomy) but Cornell does have better reputation when you go for fellowships. So it is a compromise.

As per residents at NYU, they have a new system starting this month (January 2004) where the night flow takes over at 6pm instead of 8pm. So as soon as you finish with your admissions you can leave and have a life even though you are on call.

I would like to ask the Cornell resident to comment on the issue of residents' autonomy at Cornell. Also, I assume that Cornell caters to the rich upper-eastsiders. Since most of them have insurance and a private doctor, have you ever encountered any problems when taking care of these people (e.g."please do not touch me"..."I am not here to be a ginea pig", etc )???

Thanks a lot.

 

[biplane]

Hi,

I'm a cornell student. I'm not applying to medicine, but I do know a little bit about the hospital. I'll try taking a stab at some of your questions.

1) q4 overnight. My experience was that the non-unit floors all had PAs who took your pager after morning rounds. So you sign out to them by 9a.m. if not earlier. Then the intern usually hangs around to do paperwork till maybe noon at the latest. I actually think that some people DO like q4 overnight compared to a night float system. Remember, it allows you to have the post-call day off completely, and you have an opportunity to deal with errands during the day (i.e. haircut etc.).

2) I know people have a hard time getting over the 10021 zip code and everything. However, 50% of the patients in the hospital are non-private insured (i.e. medicaid, medicare). There are huge numbers of people from the upper,upper east side (i.e. Harlem). There are also a rather large number of people from Queens, Brooklyn, and even the Bronx. I find it perplexing that people would bother to come to our ER rather than go to the one nearest their home, but I've seen it an awful lot. Also, you have to keep in mind that the NYPH network has a large community hospital network which refers exclusively to us. Everyone has a story or two about sighting a celebrity or captain of industry. However, you will go months without running into some super affluent type. The only service that has a ton of (demanding) locals is ob-gyn. THere, I did run into some demanding types. Also, keep in mind that medicaid patients (pretty much the majority of the CIMA practice) can be plenty demanding too.

3) Autonomy. I think the second year and to a large extent the intern have plenty of autonomy. Certain floors are pretty much hospitalist run, and the numbers of patients which are totally private is probably below 25%. Also, MSKCC has zero private patients--they are all assigned to a staff physician on admission generally. So my general experience is that the "private attending's secretary" thing is a load of baloney. True, you are not calling every single shot for the patients on your service, but frankly people 1-2 years out of med school should not be sharpening their skills at the patient's expense. Patient safety should come first, and I would characterize the Cornell system's oversight as appropriate to experience-level.

4) Cornell residents are a happy collegial group. The place definitely has a more intimate feel than some larger more sprawling med centers. In my opinion, the fellowship matches are pretty good. I've heard people say that you don't get enough research time, but let's be honest: you're not going publish groundbreaking research in the confines of residency unless you have a rolling start (i.e. MD/PhD, med school projects).

Hope that helps.

 

[rajvosa]

Thanks a lot man!

 

[walrus]

A few responses:

One, about the "foreign" grads in our program: you were looking at our intern class that includes neurology and psychiatry prelims. All the people who went to foreign med schools, i.e. argentina, germany, israel are all neurology prelims. There are no foreign grads in our medicine program (none are interviewed either). Don't be deceived!

About the day after overnight call: Interns MUST be out of the hospital by 10 am. The PA's that cover them post call do all their paperwork so interns aren't sticking around til noon doing paperwork, they are out by 10 am!

AOA: According to the program director, 75-80% of the people in the prorgram were AOA. It just turns out that most of the cornell students who stayed here for residency were not AOA. I guess home field advantage pays off and the requirements for them to stay here for residency aren't as stringent as if you didn't go to med school here.

I agree with the cornell med student: residents here have plenty of autonomy. Sure there are some rickies and celebrities, but the vast majority of patients are "normal" people.

As for the comment about Jacoby's training program: what are you smoking?!? Jacoby is one of the weakest programs in the city. Talk about foreign grads! At Jacoby, foreign grads are the rule rather the exception.

Hope that helped.

 

[rajvosa]

I did not say that Jacobi has the best reputation and the best residents. I just said that Jacobi residents have the most autonomy in NYC with the wildest, rarest cases that you can imagine ( the ones that you will never see at cornell).
And yes, Jacobi residents act as their patients only providers. All this makes a huge difference once you become an attending. I believe what Lukerboy heard from cornell resident about skills of the NYU residents.

My interviewer at cornell, who was a graduate of cornell im program, told me that, unfortunately, the autonomy has always been an issue at cornell training program. He told me that doing it this way is the best for the patient. I agree with him but cornell has very few service patients and I think that's a problem. (He specifically mentioned that about 25% are service pts).


As far as the AOA goes, Mr. PGY-2 comes from germany: ruprecht-karls-u heidelberg med school. I already told you that people from my med school that are now at cornell are not AOA.

Anyway, your posts were very helpful. Thanks. Your insight helped me a lot in making my ROL.

 

[walrus]

The PGY-2 who went to a german med school transferred here as a PGY-2. He did his prelim year at Wash-U. No one can match here as a medicine intern because the program doesn't interview foreign med school grads.

And yes, I didn't say EVERYONE here is AOA. I said 75-80%. That means 1 in 4-5 aren't AOA. That's plenty of people. But it is still a very high % and certainly much more than NYU where I'd estimate that 10-25% were AOA.

Also, if you think that Jacoby residents graduate and are great attending b/c they had complete autonomy as residents you would be mistaken. I personally would never refer a patient to a Jacoby program grad b/c they are awful doctors. I think that, in general, foreign doctors are awful. At Sloan Kettering, we work with residents who come from NYU, NYU downtown, St. Lukes, Methodist, etc. and the non-Cornell and NYU residents are atrocious! They really come close to killing people every day. They are lazy and have almost no medical knowledge.

That's why I say that no matter how much autonomy Jacoby residents have, the starting material is so poor that it doesn't matter and they never become good physicians.

And by the way, to say they see rare cases at jacoby that we don't see at cornell isn't true. This is b/c people come from around the world to get care here b/c there are super-specialists here. So we do see plenty of rare tropical illnesses and weird cardiovascular, pulmonary and rheumatologic conditions b/c we care for these patients who are under the care of world renown specialists who are attending here.

 

[rajvosa]

Originally posted by walrus
Also, if you think that Jacoby residents graduate and are great attending b/c they had complete autonomy as residents you would be mistaken. I personally would never refer a patient to a Jacoby program grad b/c they are awful doctors. I think that, in general, foreign doctors are awful. At Sloan Kettering, we work with residents who come from NYU, NYU downtown, St. Lukes, Methodist, etc. and the non-Cornell and NYU residents are atrocious! They really come close to killing people every day. They are lazy and have almost no medical knowledge.

That's why I say that no matter how much autonomy Jacoby residents have, the starting material is so poor that it doesn't matter and they never become good physicians.

Wow, I think you suffer from a superiority complex/narcissistic personality disorder. Are you saying that American doctors are the best in the whole World???
Better than French, British, Japanese, German or Australian? As I can remember the best health care in the whole world is in France and the US is far bellow.

There is no need to count the number of AOA residents since that's not corelated with the quality of a program. The reason Cornell gets AOAs is not because of such exceptional teaching/learning experience but because of its location and subsidized apartments at the primiere Manhattan location. That's Cornell's main selling point, and why not say it, that's the only reason why I may be interested at Cornell. If NYU had similar housing offer I would not think a second.

You need to find a way to be cool. Maybe that's why you don't like such a cool bunch of people as they are at NYU.
I heard many comments from people that interviewed at Cornell that Cornell's residents thought they were "God's gifts". You certainly proved it.

 

[caananite]

I have to agree with rajvosa on this one.
If the personalities of the other Cornell residents are anything like yours, walrus, I can't imagine anyone wanting to be there.
It's one thing to possibly think the disgusting things you do, but to actually post them for people to read? You should be embarrassed.

Sorry for venting everyone, but I simply have no patience for ignorant, rude people like this guy.

 

[walrus]

I stand by my claim that non-american med grads are awful doctors. I've seen the ones I worked with at Sloan Kettering do too many stupid and irresponsible things.

And to reply to another point, Cornell doesn't have to go as far down its rank list to fill an intern class as Columbia or NYU. There were more than enough intern applicants this year practically begging to come to cornell. My guess "Rajvosa" is that you are a bitter Einstein med student who realizes he has no chance of matching here. I'm pretty sure you're from Eisntein b/c no one else would ever praise Jacoby like you have.

 

[exjersey]

rajvosa - you may want to stop trashing programs you are planning to rank. If any one at Cornell or Columbia reads your posts, they certainly will be able to figure out who you are and you won't have a chance at matching there. Why keep shooting yourself in the foot?

 

[shindaigua]

Everyone knows that Columbia is better than Cornell. I am sure that on the Walrus' ROL Columbia was better ranked than Cornell.

 

[nycmd2004]

Hi,

I'm an intern at Columbia....after having gone through the match process last year, let me tell all the current applicants you should base your decision on where you think you'll be happy, where you think you'll fit in, and on what your ultimate plans in life are (internist vs. fellowship, etc.). All the programs you have mentioned are good, after 3 yrs of residency you won't think twice about the decision you made.

A common theme throughout many posts is trying to figure out which residency has 'malignant hours'--the truth is in internship you will work hard no matter where you go (as long as it is a top 50 residency), you will work close to 80 hrs. It is only one year, you'll be fine. I am more than half way through my internship at Columbia, I am happy, learning alot, have all the automony and backup I want, did some research with thoughts of fellowship, like living in NYC, and can't wait for 2nd year. Don't get stressed out about your decision, things will work out for the best.

 

[walrus]

columbia's a great program, but like almost all of the other residents here, Cornell was my number one choice. In fact, I don't know anyone here who didn't rank cornell number one.

 

[hellokittymd]

Hi, can any cornell students or residents comment on the diversity of the patient population? Can you give a rough percentage of minority (black, hispanic) patients on a given service? Thanks!

 

[walrus]

Plenty of diversity. On a general medicine service, it's about 25% hispanic, 25% black, and the rest white.

On the HIV service, it's about 90% minority and 10% white.

On the cardiology/ telemetry service (for caths and angioplasties) it's about 80% white with 25% of them being either celebrities or really rich people.

 

[beri]

Can anyone comment on Mount Sinai? Their experience, thoughts, etc. Thanks.