What does it take to get into ortho?

[gryffindor]

Match Results by Rank on Applicant’s List Rank Number - Number Matched
1 - 179
2 - 38
3 - 20
4 - 8
5 - 2
6 or higher - 5

252 people matched this year (246 did not match). Of those who matched, the majority get their #1 choice. Only 15 people got their 4th or higher choice - 6% of those matched. I am one of those 15. I am very lucky to have matched, I feel like I barely got in.

Most know this was my third time trying. I graduated from dental school in 2004 with a 93 Part 1 and 10/90 rank. I have serious research, multiple publications, serious commitment to activities & leadership, etc. I was one of those people who had so much that I had to pare it down when I made the 2-page resume for PASS. Senior year in my class, 6/7 people matched into ortho. From the outside looking in, 6/7 sounds like a great match stat, but few ever wonder what happens to the 1/7 that didn't match.

Those who apply as seniors in dental schools - my reapplicant buddies (yay Florida fellows!) & I called them "newbies." I was once a newbie too. When you are a newbie, you figure you will match. The people who don't match must be like social ******s or something. They probably don't have 90+ board scores. They probably don't interview well. There has to be a reason they don't match. Well here is my conclusion - there is no reason, I believe it is either politics or luck. Those who don't match are just as qualified as those who do. This isn't like dental school admissions where the 4.0 GPA/25 DAT gets in over the 2.8 GPA/18 DAT. Almost everyone who enters match had competitive stats to earn interviews.

Over the course of 3 years, the six schools I never applied to were: Alabama, UT-Memphis, Georgia, and the 3 OEC programs. I applied to every other ortho program in the coutry at least once, some twice, and I applied to almost all programs in the Northeast 3 times. I went on 19 interviews over 3 years; only 2 programs interviewed me twice. I never turned down an interview and I luckily never had a conflict either.

As a senior, I applied to 27 programs, got 4 interviews. I wanted to be in a metropolitan area in the Northeast, and my interviews weren't fitting that criteria; I almost didn't rank 2 places b/c of location. I had also applied to GPRs as "backup" so when match didn't happen, I got into a GPR in NYC. While interviewing for ortho I met all kinds of residents who had matched: those who only applied to programs in their regions, those who only had 1 interview, those who said they had lots of interviews but only ranked one or two places, those who told me they turned down interviews because of so and so reasons (not b/c of a conflict). Therefore, I figured for the second round, I was going to be more selective about where I apply.

I am from the Northeast and there are lots of ortho programs around here, so for the second round, I applied to 17, got 7 interviews. Wow! I had heard about the magic 7 - "7 interviews and you are pretty much set to match" so I figured this is my year! When I didn't match again, I thought I was having de ja vu. I struggled for a while about what my backup plan (debated doing a year 2 GPR, looked around at some fellowships) but ultimately decided to just stay in NYC and do private practice.

That's when I sat down to think about "What is it about those who match?" Obviously I have the stats/resume if I am getting some interviews, but I must be lacking something if I can't actually match. I figured for me, it was that I am too nice. Over the first 2 years I met lots of applicants, residents, and orthodontists and often found myself feeling there was an "arrogance" quality to alot of people I met. I can't explain it, but these are the same people who automatically assume there must be something wrong with me if I can't match two times in a row because most of them were newbies when they matched so they dont know much about the group who doesn't match.

This third time, I went out full force. I had a support group of reapplicants - very nice & qualified people who didn't get in our first or second tries but we were determined. I got over the notion of location and I applied to 40+ programs all over the country (I don't even know what the final total was), I got 8 interviews. I worked part-time in private practice so I could use the other time to do applications and go on interviews. I couldn't afford to be picky. If I had said "I am only applying to 2 year programs" - I would have had 1 interview, no match. If I had said "I am only reapplying in the Northeast" - then I would have had 4 interviews, no match. I applied to those 40+ schools because I believe it is very unpredictable as to which schools are going to invite you to interview.

I read books about interviewing and I read lots of the "Dental School Interview Feedback" section here on SDN. I sat down on my computer with a list of like 60 possible questions I could get asked and crafted nice little "storybook" responses to them. Then I memorized them. I was constantly reviewing my notes at the interviews. It was like studying for a dental school exam. I went out and bought one of those black leather folders everyone carries around. In past cycles I had believed residents when they said "Oh, the interview is a chance for us to get to know you. Just be yourself." No way - I tried being "myself" two years in a row and it didn't work. I had to try something else.

During my interviews this year, I had 2 interviews that I feel went very badly, 4 that were ho-hum, and 2 that I got "good vibes" from. Those 2 with the good vibes were my #1 choice school and Vanderbilt. But I have also learned that a "good vibe" means nothing so I wasn't trusting anything. I never got asked how much I know about ortho or any OEC questions. I made up my list but in the end I didn't even care what the order was, all I wanted when I opened the email on match day was to say "Congratulations." I got so excited when I saw that, I didn't even bother to scroll down and see which program I matched. I was just relieved that someone wanted me!

Tentative back up plans I considered included jumping ship and doing Pedo (the politics & arrogance in ortho I can do without, I think Pedo is an overall nicer field - both fields work on kids) or taking some time off and retaking Part 1 boards. Maybe I would have thought more about OEC, I dunno - the 7 year contract is really what kills me about them. I have worked in a corporate dental places and it is very very restrictive compared to non-corporate practice. It sounds so sad that I even had to consider trying to raise a 93 part I. But look at who gets in - 67% of the matched candidates are seniors in dental school. Programs sweat seeing a 98 board score more than they do a graduated dentist with experience. I don't know why b/c I was a much better and mature candidate having had the GPR & private practice experience than when I was a senior. I have actually practiced enough GP in lots of settings (clinic, high end, insurance mill, etc) to know what I hate about it and I REALLY REALLY wanted ortho. During work, when I was getting frustrated with the things in GP I don't like, I would pray in my head all the time before match day "Please God, let me match." But most programs don't really care; there are a few places that favor those with experience.

Getting into ortho is not as easy as newbies make it out to be. There is no magic formula, IMO your best shot is probably to kiss butt at your own program and hope they take you. I mean look at the other thread - 4/6 Baylor people in Baylor, 4/6 UNC people in UNC. I said on some other thread that if I had to do dental school all over again knowing that i wanted ortho, I would have gone to Harvard, maybe UConn (small schools with really good part 1 board averages. I think Harvard tends to match everyone and if you don't match the name seems to be a big deal to some places). I think that to get the interview, it's all about how high your board score is to get noticed; if you have a class rank, it can hurt you if it's not high enough. The rest of the resume is IMO of very minor importance. If you can have some "big names" write letters for you, believe me - it can help more than how many publications you have. There are also lots of legacies and political crap that goes on. All it meant to me was that a program with 4 spots interviewing 20 people may already know exactly who those 4 spots are going to; the other 16 candidates are really just there for entertainment value, they don't even have a real chance but you don't know that until after match. Also, you may interview at a program and think your interviews went well; what you don't know is that the residents at that place may have veto power and for whatever reason, if you are not "cool enough" you might get the axe. For this reason, I also believe that the social events are just as mandatory as the interviews. You don't know how much power the residents have at that particular program and it can really hurt you if you don't go b/c it is a BIG popularity contest. (There are programs where the residents have zero say.)

That is my ortho rant. Phew! Now that I'm in, I am very tired, broke, sick of all the interview games, and even bitter about what I went through to get this spot. Of course I am very happy to have succeeded and I think Vanderbilt is fabulous for believing in me. Congrats to those of you who matched. To those who didn't, you can't give up if this is what you want, but I think you always have to be realistic and entertain the idea that ortho may not happen and try to find something else in dentistry you like for a career.

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[Surfs up]

All it meant to me was that a program with 4 spots interviewing 20 people may already know exactly who those 4 spots are going to; the other 16 candidates are really just there for entertainment value, they don't even have a real chance but you don't know that until after match.

Totally agreed. It seemed like many of the interviews were just "going through the motions" (hence the majority of candidates not getting ranked at each interview).

 

[TKD]

Totally agreed. It seemed like many of the interviews were just "going through the motions" (hence the majority of candidates not getting ranked at each interview).

griffin04, congrats. i agree with your points - very genuine email, and i'm really happy for you. only thing i would add is, as a reapplicant i took the GREs and killed them. i suggest that dental students should take that exam, and absolutely study your asses of. that little extra edge helped me.

 

[DDSSlave]

That's awesome that you matched. It sounds like you've earned it three times over. I'll admit, before going on interviews I really didn't have a clue about just how competitive it was. Like you say, I figured, if you have over a 90 and are in the top 10% and a nice person you shouldn't have any problem. After interviewing and talking with friends, residents, and orthodontists it's just not that simple. How does a program choose between 30 interviewees? All have 90s and top 10%. All have good letters, research, etc. And most importantly, just about every applicant is very nice, humble, and fun to be around. (I didn't pick up on any of the "arrogance" you mentioned.)

You mentioned that many schools have a heavy in-house pull. Well this is partly true, but it's a bit more complicated than that. As was stated in the other thread, NC did rank other students high, probably higher than a number of their own NC students, but they couldn't attract those students. Same thing happened to Baylor 4/6. I would guess they didn't just rank their own students in spots 1,2,3,4. Other applicants decided to go elsewhere. That's how in-house ratios increase. I wouldn't make the blanket statement that these schools reserve so many spots for in-house. To do so would be missing the point that these programs legitamately rank their favorite applicants regardless of school, but as so often the case the applicant would rather stay home or go to another program.

I would agree that it is critical that you click with both the faculty and residents. Why would the school rank you if you don't care about getting to know the residents or going to their mixer. I wouldn't rank an applicant either if they just showed up for their interview and didn't talk to anyone else.

I am surprised you felt many people were arrogant. In the few schools that I interviewed at, I really didn't get that feeling. Everyone seemed friendly, humble, and supportive of one another.

For those applying next yr, it can't be overstated how competitive the process is. Numbers are critical, and so is applying to a lot of programs.

Anyway just some thoughts... hope to meet you up at GORP. Congrats again!

 

[gryffindor]

Hmmmm, maybe arrogance isn't the best word for what I was trying to describe. Maybe "cocky" is a better word. Yeah, pretty much most of the residents are nice & fun & social. But the cockiness maybe something you don't pick up on unless you are a reapplicant. Like I had one place where the resident called me prior to the interview to see if I had any questions; then the resident went on and on about how "ortho is the best decision I ever made" and "i went to 12 interviews last year" and "omg, match was like the hardest thing i ever went through." It was my mistake I told her I was a reapplicant b/c it struck me then that she just didn't get what a reapplicant is. The resident was just telling me her experience, but it's hard to listen to that when my experience is the same exact thing but without the acceptance which she got - ortho is a decision i've made to puruse, match is one of the hardest things i've gone through. But when you don't get the match and the ortho, you don't talk about it like that. Anyone who goes through 12 interviews and doesn't match (and it does happen to some candidates unfortunately) - they will have a new level of humility when they reapply, guaranteed.

 

[jpollei]

You mentioned that many schools have a heavy in-house pull. Well this is partly true, but it's a bit more complicated than that. As was stated in the other thread, NC did rank other students high, probably higher than a number of their own NC students, but they couldn't attract those students. Same thing happened to Baylor 4/6. I would guess they didn't just rank their own students in spots 1,2,3,4. Other applicants decided to go elsewhere. That's how in-house ratios increase. I wouldn't make the blanket statement that these schools reserve so many spots for in-house. To do so would be missing the point that these programs legitamately rank their favorite applicants regardless of school, but as so often the case the applicant would rather stay home or go to another program.

Totally agreed. I'd bet my spot that at least two or three of those who were ranked in the top 10 here at UNC that chose to attend elsewhere were also in the top 5 on Baylor's rank list. And if my postulating is correct, they really were great applicants. Not as good looking as the rest of us, but still great applicants.

For those applying next yr, it can't be overstated how competitive the process is. Numbers are critical, and so is applying to a lot of programs.

I also agree very strongly with this...much more now than before I actually went through the interview/MATCH process. If I'd had to reapply, I'd have applied to lots more than the 8 programs I applied to, and sick as this sounds, tried to do better than my 95 on part I boards.

 

[TMP]

I was one of those "cocky" newbies who feels very blessed to have matched at a great program. Like others have said - YOU CANNOT UNDER ESTIMATE ORTHO!! Getting interviews are the first step and a 93 just isn't good enough unless its your own school it seems.

At the interviews (this is the secret you have to realize) the RESIDENTS are the key. I went on 6 interviews, attended all socials - you couldn't have dragged me out of that bar - I was surprised to see so many people leave socials way early, this is your one chance to get to know the residents and your gonna go to bed at 10pm? At all of my 6, the residents had huge say on things.

Schools do take there own for the most part, and spots are theoretically filled before this madness even begins in some cases (NOVA this year is a classic example, a waist of $100 for me, even more for those interviewing). This is why you make friends with your program and then apply to alot of programs - try to find schools were your school has natural ties to, past residents, faculty, deans, ect.

I applied to around 28 programs! An insane amount I agree, but I didn't want to take a chance and I'm glad I did because I got interviews at schools I never would have applied to and didn't here a peep from schools I thought I would for sure get an interview from.

In the end unless your a 99, with top rank, and killer abs - your damn lucky to match with any ortho program. But as hard as ortho sounds to get, it is possible, you just gotta apply and interview smart.

 

[Surfs up]

I was one of those "cocky" newbies who feels very blessed to have matched at a great program. Like others have said - YOU CANNOT UNDER ESTIMATE ORTHO!! Getting interviews are the first step and a 93 just isn't good enough unless its your own school it seems.

It also can't be underestimated about how much you need to KISS BUTT at your home ortho program to secure a spot. That's the secret to the match--if you secure your home school, it doesn't matter where you rank your other interviews because you will match that year. I can say that I didn't need any connections to get in (one of my "connections" was actually a road block, but that's a long story), but I don't blame those do it.

 

[superchris147]

That is my ortho rant.

For someone who is a lowly first year dental student who hasn't even thought about specializing I found that post to be really interesting. Its cool to hear other people's experiences and their thoughts.

It's good to hear that you finally got in after all that work.

I encourage all other residents on this forum to give their experiences (including the GPR and AEGD kids). It'll help young people like me a good idea on what to shoot for

 

[WestCoast]

It also can't be underestimated about how much you need to KISS BUTT at your home ortho program to secure a spot. That's the secret to the match--if you secure your home school, it doesn't matter where you rank your other interviews because you will match that year. I can say that I didn't need any connections to get in (one of my "connections" was actually a road block, but that's a long story), but I don't blame those do it.

or be a really good looking girl.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Didn't you know? Griffin is a REALLY good looking girl. ;-)

 

[sdog]

I was one of those "cocky" newbies who feels very blessed to have matched at a great program. Like others have said - YOU CANNOT UNDER ESTIMATE ORTHO!! Getting interviews are the first step and a 93 just isn't good enough unless its your own school it seems.

At the interviews (this is the secret you have to realize) the RESIDENTS are the key. I went on 6 interviews, attended all socials - you couldn't have dragged me out of that bar - I was surprised to see so many people leave socials way early, this is your one chance to get to know the residents and your gonna go to bed at 10pm? At all of my 6, the residents had huge say on things.

Schools do take there own for the most part, and spots are theoretically filled before this madness even begins in some cases (NOVA this year is a classic example, a waist of $100 for me, even more for those interviewing). This is why you make friends with your program and then apply to alot of programs - try to find schools were your school has natural ties to, past residents, faculty, deans, ect.

I applied to around 28 programs! An insane amount I agree, but I didn't want to take a chance and I'm glad I did because I got interviews at schools I never would have applied to and didn't here a peep from schools I thought I would for sure get an interview from.

In the end unless your a 99, with top rank, and killer abs - your damn lucky to match with any ortho program. But as hard as ortho sounds to get, it is possible, you just gotta apply and interview smart.

I totally agree with all that has been said.

Griffen's "ranting" has a lot of truth in it and she and I both know this from our 3 years of experience.

My story is very similar to hers. I applied 3 times, had 18 interviews (total), did a GPR and did a one year fellowship and I have come up with my own conclusions on what it takes.
1) I agree that it is MOST IMPORTANT to guarantee a spot at your own school
2) Show as much interest as humanly possible at every interview
3) the more people you know, the better are your chances- this includes faculty, chairs, residents, previous graduates of the program (in some cases)

I think the latter 2 were the reasons that I was finally successful this year.

 

[Bifid Uvula]

big big boooooooooooobies If esclavo was program director, he'd take guys with big big boooooobies too. To him its all the same in the dark.

 

[toofache32]

big big boooooooooooobies If esclavo was program director, he'd take guys with big big boooooobies too. To him its all the same in the dark.

<feels himself up to assess cup size>

 

[ItsGavinC]

Griffin, congrats once again. Great post!

 

[orthopls]

So, as a "newbie" who matched, I take offense to this post.

#1. The term in and of itself is condescending.
#2. Remove yourself from your bitterness long enough to realize that maybe it isn't so much that all these newbies are lucky, but that the reapplicants are unlucky.
#3. If your approach to the profession begins with such resentment toward most of your colleagues, you're going to have a miserable time.

The match is not a perfect system by far, but I hope you'd agree that there are many more people who DO match that deserve to match than there are people who DON'T match who are qualified. Little consolation for those qualified folks who don't match, but blame it on an imperfect system and not the others who make it into the system.


We've actually met. You seem like a nice person, and knowing your stats through SDN, I hoped that you would match this time around, and I'm still glad that you did, but please, leave the resentment in your past.

 

[JMoney]

Sorry ot get off topic but.........
I am trying to decide on Case and Tufts for matriculation in 2010.
How well does Tufts and Case rank in terms of ability to specialize and prepare their students for National Board Exams?
If you guys/gals were to choose which school would give me a better chance of scoring a good specialty?

Thanks in advance
Jason

 

[jk5177]

Thanks for the useful thread.

 

[Rezdawg]

I totally agree with all that has been said.

Griffen's "ranting" has a lot of truth in it and she and I both know this from our 3 years of experience.

My story is very similar to hers. I applied 3 times, had 18 interviews (total), did a GPR and did a one year fellowship and I have come up with my own conclusions on what it takes.
1) I agree that it is MOST IMPORTANT to guarantee a spot at your own school
2) Show as much interest as humanly possible at every interview
3) the more people you know, the better are your chances- this includes faculty, chairs, residents, previous graduates of the program (in some cases)

I think the latter 2 were the reasons that I was finally successful this year.

If you dont mind, post your stats...would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[gryffindor]

Hi orthopls! I have a guess as to who you are, but say hi if you see me around again. I'm usually pretty good with faces. I am a nice & practical person and I'll get over the bitterness, life is way more important than holding a grudge about something I did finally succeed with.

But do you really know what a miserable time is? Seriously, I wish I could go back and do general dentistry in dental school where I had faculty to bail me out, clean instruments and lots of supplies. A miserable time is in private practice when you have 1 hour to complete 3 canals on a #15 "hot" tooth, the patient is yelping every time you stick a file in there, you can't see anything and there are 2 more patients waiting (both are probably "afraid of needles & dentists"). ALL you can think about is how much you would rather be doing ortho where the patients are usually glad to see you, but since match has already been a bust twice, you can't even be confident that ortho is in your future. The point of my rant was that as much as you want ortho and think you did everything right, ortho just may not want you.

I'm sure we are both cool people and would get along fine as co-residents somewhere, but there is a big difference between you and me: our stats. I worked hard too (try STILL worrying about class rank after match when everyone else is on cruise control) but if a program puts your application next to mine, chances are, you would win and get invited to the interview. Programs sweat numbers more than they do experience - how else do you explain that 66% of those who are starting ortho next year are 2006 grads? There are 250 2006 grads who entered match and 248 pre-2006 grads; that's almost split down the middle yet the 2006 grads did better in matching overall. Yeah, I guess the reapplicants are "unlucky" - sucks for them huh? I know I barely got in - I had several schools ranked ahead of my match and now I know that those schools didn't want me (even if they were giving me "good vibes") yet I tried my darn hardest at all the interviews, showed lots of interest, and didn't piss anyone off or be a tool or anything bad like that. Again, I'm still thankful that at least 1 school matched me. This is again why I believe you should rank all schools who interview you, any match is better than no match in this game.

I already said it. I was a "newbie" too. I figured I was going to match my senior year, I was not really prepared at all that day when I didn't. I didn't do a GPR because I "wanted" to round on ENT patients and get pimped by OMS attendings on the branches of some artery in the chest. I did it mainly to try and enhance my application and when I didn't match last year, I didn't really even feel like finishing the GPR because it didn't feel worth it anymore if it didn't help me get in. That's why I had to sit down and "compose" answers because if I didn't, "being myself" and speaking honestly might have gotten me in big trouble. At one interview I was asked "What would you do if you had a 14 yo patient who had poor oral hygiene?" Oh boy, did I want to speak my mind on that one when the interviewer thinks that a 14 yo not brushing is a serious problem that even merits a discussion, but that would have definitely earned me a big axe. We all do what we think is best for us. Now that I'm in, I can say the GPR was good for a few key things (mostly non-dental). But if you asked me a month ago what I think the benefits of my GPR were, I would have gave you an answer that made it sound like the GPR is awesome! Funny, I met a reapplicant who was bashing his GPR when talking to the residents (his experience sounded no different than my GPR but he was being way negative about it) - I wonder if he matched.

 

[wayoutwest]

My killer GRE didn't help much...

griffin04, congrats. i agree with your points - very genuine email, and i'm really happy for you. only thing i would add is, as a reapplicant i took the GREs and killed them. i suggest that dental students should take that exam, and absolutely study your asses of. that little extra edge helped me.

 

[greenday]

252 people matched this year (246 did not match). Of those who matched, the majority get their #1 choice. Only 15 people got their 4th or higher choice - 6% of those matched. I am one of those 15. I am very lucky to have matched, I feel like I barely got in.

Most know this was my third time trying. I graduated from dental school in 2004 with a 93 Part 1 and 10/90 rank. I have serious research, multiple publications, serious commitment to activities & leadership, etc. I was one of those people who had so much that I had to pare it down when I made the 2-page resume for PASS. Senior year in my class, 6/7 people matched into ortho. From the outside looking in, 6/7 sounds like a great match stat, but few ever wonder what happens to the 1/7 that didn't match.

Those who apply as seniors in dental schools - my reapplicant buddies (yay Florida fellows!) & I called them "newbies." I was once a newbie too. When you are a newbie, you figure you will match. The people who don't match must be like social ******s or something. They probably don't have 90+ board scores. They probably don't interview well. There has to be a reason they don't match. Well here is my conclusion - there is no reason, I believe it is either politics or luck. Those who don't match are just as qualified as those who do. This isn't like dental school admissions where the 4.0 GPA/25 DAT gets in over the 2.8 GPA/18 DAT. Almost everyone who enters match had competitive stats to earn interviews.

Over the course of 3 years, the six schools I never applied to were: Alabama, UT-Memphis, Georgia, and the 3 OEC programs. I applied to every other ortho program in the coutry at least once, some twice, and I applied to almost all programs in the Northeast 3 times. I went on 19 interviews over 3 years; only 2 programs interviewed me twice. I never turned down an interview and I luckily never had a conflict either.

As a senior, I applied to 27 programs, got 4 interviews. I wanted to be in a metropolitan area in the Northeast, and my interviews weren't fitting that criteria; I almost didn't rank 2 places b/c of location. I had also applied to GPRs as "backup" so when match didn't happen, I got into a GPR in NYC. While interviewing for ortho I met all kinds of residents who had matched: those who only applied to programs in their regions, those who only had 1 interview, those who said they had lots of interviews but only ranked one or two places, those who told me they turned down interviews because of so and so reasons (not b/c of a conflict). Therefore, I figured for the second round, I was going to be more selective about where I apply.

I am from the Northeast and there are lots of ortho programs around here, so for the second round, I applied to 17, got 7 interviews. Wow! I had heard about the magic 7 - "7 interviews and you are pretty much set to match" so I figured this is my year! When I didn't match again, I thought I was having de ja vu. I struggled for a while about what my backup plan (debated doing a year 2 GPR, looked around at some fellowships) but ultimately decided to just stay in NYC and do private practice.

That's when I sat down to think about "What is it about those who match?" Obviously I have the stats/resume if I am getting some interviews, but I must be lacking something if I can't actually match. I figured for me, it was that I am too nice. Over the first 2 years I met lots of applicants, residents, and orthodontists and often found myself feeling there was an "arrogance" quality to alot of people I met. I can't explain it, but these are the same people who automatically assume there must be something wrong with me if I can't match two times in a row because most of them were newbies when they matched so they dont know much about the group who doesn't match.

This third time, I went out full force. I had a support group of reapplicants - very nice & qualified people who didn't get in our first or second tries but we were determined. I got over the notion of location and I applied to 40+ programs all over the country (I don't even know what the final total was), I got 8 interviews. I worked part-time in private practice so I could use the other time to do applications and go on interviews. I couldn't afford to be picky. If I had said "I am only applying to 2 year programs" - I would have had 1 interview, no match. If I had said "I am only reapplying in the Northeast" - then I would have had 4 interviews, no match. I applied to those 40+ schools because I believe it is very unpredictable as to which schools are going to invite you to interview.

I read books about interviewing and I read lots of the "Dental School Interview Feedback" section here on SDN. I sat down on my computer with a list of like 60 possible questions I could get asked and crafted nice little "storybook" responses to them. Then I memorized them. I was constantly reviewing my notes at the interviews. It was like studying for a dental school exam. I went out and bought one of those black leather folders everyone carries around. In past cycles I had believed residents when they said "Oh, the interview is a chance for us to get to know you. Just be yourself." No way - I tried being "myself" two years in a row and it didn't work. I had to try something else.

During my interviews this year, I had 2 interviews that I feel went very badly, 4 that were ho-hum, and 2 that I got "good vibes" from. Those 2 with the good vibes were my #1 choice school and Vanderbilt. But I have also learned that a "good vibe" means nothing so I wasn't trusting anything. I never got asked how much I know about ortho or any OEC questions. I made up my list but in the end I didn't even care what the order was, all I wanted when I opened the email on match day was to say "Congratulations." I got so excited when I saw that, I didn't even bother to scroll down and see which program I matched. I was just relieved that someone wanted me!

Tentative back up plans I considered included jumping ship and doing Pedo (the politics & arrogance in ortho I can do without, I think Pedo is an overall nicer field - both fields work on kids) or taking some time off and retaking Part 1 boards. Maybe I would have thought more about OEC, I dunno - the 7 year contract is really what kills me about them. I have worked in a corporate dental places and it is very very restrictive compared to non-corporate practice. It sounds so sad that I even had to consider trying to raise a 93 part I. But look at who gets in - 67% of the matched candidates are seniors in dental school. Programs sweat seeing a 98 board score more than they do a graduated dentist with experience. I don't know why b/c I was a much better and mature candidate having had the GPR & private practice experience than when I was a senior. I have actually practiced enough GP in lots of settings (clinic, high end, insurance mill, etc) to know what I hate about it and I REALLY REALLY wanted ortho. During work, when I was getting frustrated with the things in GP I don't like, I would pray in my head all the time before match day "Please God, let me match." But most programs don't really care; there are a few places that favor those with experience.

Getting into ortho is not as easy as newbies make it out to be. There is no magic formula, IMO your best shot is probably to kiss butt at your own program and hope they take you. I mean look at the other thread - 4/6 Baylor people in Baylor, 4/6 UNC people in UNC. I said on some other thread that if I had to do dental school all over again knowing that i wanted ortho, I would have gone to Harvard, maybe UConn (small schools with really good part 1 board averages. I think Harvard tends to match everyone and if you don't match the name seems to be a big deal to some places). I think that to get the interview, it's all about how high your board score is to get noticed; if you have a class rank, it can hurt you if it's not high enough. The rest of the resume is IMO of very minor importance. If you can have some "big names" write letters for you, believe me - it can help more than how many publications you have. There are also lots of legacies and political crap that goes on. All it meant to me was that a program with 4 spots interviewing 20 people may already know exactly who those 4 spots are going to; the other 16 candidates are really just there for entertainment value, they don't even have a real chance but you don't know that until after match. Also, you may interview at a program and think your interviews went well; what you don't know is that the residents at that place may have veto power and for whatever reason, if you are not "cool enough" you might get the axe. For this reason, I also believe that the social events are just as mandatory as the interviews. You don't know how much power the residents have at that particular program and it can really hurt you if you don't go b/c it is a BIG popularity contest. (There are programs where the residents have zero say.)

That is my ortho rant. Phew! Now that I'm in, I am very tired, broke, sick of all the interview games, and even bitter about what I went through to get this spot. Of course I am very happy to have succeeded and I think Vanderbilt is fabulous for believing in me. Congrats to those of you who matched. To those who didn't, you can't give up if this is what you want, but I think you always have to be realistic and entertain the idea that ortho may not happen and try to find something else in dentistry you like for a career.

Best post seen in a long long time, very inspiring and educational.
Keep up the spirit griffin04.

 

[gryffindor]

Congrats sdog! sdog definitely helped me keep sane through a lot of this (and I think I helped her too!). We could write an entire thesis with the million conspiracy theories we came up with of how ortho admissions works.

 

[sdog]

Class rank 10/93
Part 1: 95
Part 2: 92
lots of research, good rapport (I thought) with faculty at my school and responsibilities within the ortho. program training other dental students with our ortho. research protocol.

If you dont mind, post your stats...would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[InMyCrossHairs]

Most know this was my third time trying. I graduated from dental school in 2004 with a 93 Part 1 and 10/90 rank. I have serious research, multiple publications, serious commitment to activities & leadership, etc. I was one of those people who had so much that I had to pare it down when I made the 2-page resume for PASS. Senior year in my class, 6/7 people matched into ortho. From the outside looking in, 6/7 sounds like a great match stat, but few ever wonder what happens to the 1/7 that didn't match.

Those who apply as seniors in dental schools - my reapplicant buddies (yay Florida fellows!) & I called them "newbies." I was once a newbie too. When you are a newbie, you figure you will match. The people who don't match must be like social ******s or something. They probably don't have 90+ board scores. They probably don't interview well. There has to be a reason they don't match. Well here is my conclusion - there is no reason, I believe it is either politics or luck. Those who don't match are just as qualified as those who do. This isn't like dental school admissions where the 4.0 GPA/25 DAT gets in over the 2.8 GPA/18 DAT. Almost everyone who enters match had competitive stats to earn interviews.

As a senior, I applied to 27 programs, got 4 interviews. I wanted to be in a metropolitan area in the Northeast, and my interviews weren't fitting that criteria; I almost didn't rank 2 places b/c of location. I had also applied to GPRs as "backup" so when match didn't happen, I got into a GPR in NYC. While interviewing for ortho I met all kinds of residents who had matched: those who only applied to programs in their regions, those who only had 1 interview, those who said they had lots of interviews but only ranked one or two places, those who told me they turned down interviews because of so and so reasons (not b/c of a conflict). Therefore, I figured for the second round, I was going to be more selective about where I apply.

I am from the Northeast and there are lots of ortho programs around here, so for the second round, I applied to 17, got 7 interviews. Wow! I had heard about the magic 7 - "7 interviews and you are pretty much set to match" so I figured this is my year! When I didn't match again, I thought I was having de ja vu. I struggled for a while about what my backup plan (debated doing a year 2 GPR, looked around at some fellowships) but ultimately decided to just stay in NYC and do private practice.

That's when I sat down to think about "What is it about those who match?" Obviously I have the stats/resume if I am getting some interviews, but I must be lacking something if I can't actually match. I figured for me, it was that I am too nice. Over the first 2 years I met lots of applicants, residents, and orthodontists and often found myself feeling there was an "arrogance" quality to alot of people I met. I can't explain it, but these are the same people who automatically assume there must be something wrong with me if I can't match two times in a row because most of them were newbies when they matched so they dont know much about the group who doesn't match.

This third time, I went out full force. I had a support group of reapplicants - very nice & qualified people who didn't get in our first or second tries but we were determined. I got over the notion of location and I applied to 40+ programs all over the country (I don't even know what the final total was), I got 8 interviews. I worked part-time in private practice so I could use the other time to do applications and go on interviews. I couldn't afford to be picky. If I had said "I am only applying to 2 year programs" - I would have had 1 interview, no match. If I had said "I am only reapplying in the Northeast" - then I would have had 4 interviews, no match. I applied to those 40+ schools because I believe it is very unpredictable as to which schools are going to invite you to interview.

I read books about interviewing and I read lots of the "Dental School Interview Feedback" section here on SDN. I sat down on my computer with a list of like 60 possible questions I could get asked and crafted nice little "storybook" responses to them. Then I memorized them. I was constantly reviewing my notes at the interviews. It was like studying for a dental school exam. I went out and bought one of those black leather folders everyone carries around. In past cycles I had believed residents when they said "Oh, the interview is a chance for us to get to know you. Just be yourself." No way - I tried being "myself" two years in a row and it didn't work. I had to try something else.

During my interviews this year, I had 2 interviews that I feel went very badly, 4 that were ho-hum, and 2 that I got "good vibes" from. Those 2 with the good vibes were my #1 choice school and Vanderbilt. But I have also learned that a "good vibe" means nothing so I wasn't trusting anything. I never got asked how much I know about ortho or any OEC questions. I made up my list but in the end I didn't even care what the order was, all I wanted when I opened the email on match day was to say "Congratulations." I got so excited when I saw that, I didn't even bother to scroll down and see which program I matched. I was just relieved that someone wanted me!

Tentative back up plans I considered included jumping ship and doing Pedo (the politics & arrogance in ortho I can do without, I think Pedo is an overall nicer field - both fields work on kids) or taking some time off and retaking Part 1 boards. Maybe I would have thought more about OEC, I dunno - the 7 year contract is really what kills me about them. I have worked in a corporate dental places and it is very very restrictive compared to non-corporate practice. It sounds so sad that I even had to consider trying to raise a 93 part I. But look at who gets in - 67% of the matched candidates are seniors in dental school. Programs sweat seeing a 98 board score more than they do a graduated dentist with experience. I don't know why b/c I was a much better and mature candidate having had the GPR & private practice experience than when I was a senior. I have actually practiced enough GP in lots of settings (clinic, high end, insurance mill, etc) to know what I hate about it and I REALLY REALLY wanted ortho. During work, when I was getting frustrated with the things in GP I don't like, I would pray in my head all the time before match day "Please God, let me match." But most programs don't really care; there are a few places that favor those with experience.

Getting into ortho is not as easy as newbies make it out to be. There is no magic formula, IMO your best shot is probably to kiss butt at your own program and hope they take you. I mean look at the other thread - 4/6 Baylor people in Baylor, 4/6 UNC people in UNC. I said on some other thread that if I had to do dental school all over again knowing that i wanted ortho, I would have gone to Harvard, maybe UConn (small schools with really good part 1 board averages. I think Harvard tends to match everyone and if you don't match the name seems to be a big deal to some places). I think that to get the interview, it's all about how high your board score is to get noticed; if you have a class rank, it can hurt you if it's not high enough. The rest of the resume is IMO of very minor importance. If you can have some "big names" write letters for you, believe me - it can help more than how many publications you have. There are also lots of legacies and political crap that goes on. All it meant to me was that a program with 4 spots interviewing 20 people may already know exactly who those 4 spots are going to; the other 16 candidates are really just there for entertainment value, they don't even have a real chance but you don't know that until after match. Also, you may interview at a program and think your interviews went well; what you don't know is that the residents at that place may have veto power and for whatever reason, if you are not "cool enough" you might get the axe. For this reason, I also believe that the social events are just as mandatory as the interviews. You don't know how much power the residents have at that particular program and it can really hurt you if you don't go b/c it is a BIG popularity contest. (There are programs where the residents have zero say.)

That is my ortho rant. Phew! Now that I'm in, I am very tired, broke, sick of all the interview games, and even bitter about what I went through to get this spot. Of course I am very happy to have succeeded and I think Vanderbilt is fabulous for believing in me. Congrats to those of you who matched. To those who didn't, you can't give up if this is what you want, but I think you always have to be realistic and entertain the idea that ortho may not happen and try to find something else in dentistry you like for a career.

Lamest post I have seen on SDN in a long time...take that back, ever. I just wish I could get back the five minutes I wasted reading it. The only thing more annoying than the post were audio sound bytes of a screaming and crying baby that would not get out of my head as I read it. I am still in amazement that you actually "studied for your interview", I thought the point was to get to know the applicant. I wonder if the reason you didn't get into your first choice is that they busted you during one of your rehearsed answers when you lost where you were in your "candid" response.

 

[greenday]

Lamest post I have seen on SDN in a long time...take that back, ever. I just wish I could get back the five minutes I wasted reading it. The only thing more annoying than the post were audio sound bytes of a screaming and crying baby that would not get out of my head as I read it. I am still in amazement that you actually "studied for your interview", I thought the point was to get to know the applicant. I wonder if the reason you didn't get into your first choice is that they busted you during one of your rehearsed answers when you lost where you were in your "candid" response.

As Griffin indicated, she was just a newbie the first time she applied, and this post gives a thorough review of her application path. She's been honest and passionate about her experience. I wonder how you could not appreciate her spending time sharing thoughts with us pre-newbies. Your comments have been very harshy. I'm sure the way Griffin studied the interviews is not simply rehearsing answers but just familiarising herself with the outlines. I typed out my answers to potential interview questions on several pages and went over them a couple of times so I would be more confident and have some idea about what to say. It worked out well for me and I was able to express my thoughts and bond with all of my interviewers easily. And I couldn't imagine interviewing without preparing. Everyone is different, show some respect would you.

 

[gryffindor]

Interviews are about getting to know the applicant. But do you and your friends discuss on a regular basis what your 3 strengths and weaknesses are? My friends & I discuss things like the last episode of Desperate Housewives, whether we liked a particular restaurant or not, or some article in the latest issue of Cosmo, but it seemed like none of my interviewers wanted to discuss that stuff with me to "get to know me." They instead dwelled on things like "If you were a program director, what would you do?" or "If you had all the resources to pursue a research project, what would you choose to study?"

 

[InMyCrossHairs]

Interviews are about getting to know the applicant. But do you and your friends discuss on a regular basis what your 3 strengths and weaknesses are? My friends & I discuss things like the last episode of Desperate Housewives, whether we liked a particular restaurant or not, or some article in the latest issue of Cosmo, but it seemed like none of my interviewers wanted to discuss that stuff with me to "get to know me." They instead dwelled on things like "If you were a program director, what would you do?" or "If you had all the resources to pursue a research project, what would you choose to study?"

\

Fair Enough, my bad.

 

[aphistis]

I hope you'd agree that there are many more people who DO match that deserve to match than there are people who DON'T match who are qualified.

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that a sizable contingent of folks wouldn't agree at all.

 

[Rezdawg]

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that a sizable contingent of folks wouldn't agree at all.

Agreed.

There are many, many students who are qualified who dont match. Much more than the 250 or so that did match.

 

[jpollei]

I was just thinking (which can be a very dangerous thing) that they should turn the entire ortho application into a reality tv series. Group interviews now are seen by the entire nation, and the public can "vote out" applicants they don't like. You could have competition or contests--who can bend the best Hawley in under 2 minutes--to detemine who is exempt from the voting process for an episode. Maybe even a special intro episode like those awful singers the first week of American Idol.
Ratings would probably be fair, and there would be a cult following of people a la The Biggest Loser, the Great Race, or Survivor. Subsequent seasons could be extended into other specialty areas...OMFS, pedo...maybe even some of the med residencies would join in.
Any takers for next year?

 

[DcS]

I was just thinking (which can be a very dangerous thing) that they should turn the entire ortho application into a reality tv series. Group interviews now are seen by the entire nation, and the public can "vote out" applicants they don't like. You could have competition or contests--who can bend the best Hawley in under 2 minutes--to detemine who is exempt from the voting process for an episode. Maybe even a special intro episode like those awful singers the first week of American Idol.
Ratings would probably be fair, and there would be a cult following of people a la The Biggest Loser, the Great Race, or Survivor. Subsequent seasons could be extended into other specialty areas...OMFS, pedo...maybe even some of the med residencies would join in.
Any takers for next year?

[THREAD HIJACK!]

Any news on CITA/ADEX? I get the impression the damage has been done. Is that pretty accurate or is there some ray of hope still there?

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Ratings would probably be fair, and there would be a cult following of people a la The Biggest Loser, the Great Race, or Survivor. Subsequent seasons could be extended into other specialty areas...OMFS, pedo...maybe even some of the med residencies would join in.
Any takers for next year?

The pedo applicants could have a PITA kid get nasty and then they have to try manage him with the SUPER NANNY waiting in the wings ready to teach behavioral management. Like NO, NO, Naughty John-john. Jpollei this could take off-----I want a cut for the pedo/super nanny portion.

Dr. B

 

[jpollei]

[THREAD HIJACK!]

Any news on CITA/ADEX? I get the impression the damage has been done. Is that pretty accurate or is there some ray of hope still there?

I think we're S.O.L. at this point...stuck with what we have. I hope the CITA folks (or at least one or two in particular) end up having to sleep in the bed they've made for themselves.

 

[jpollei]

Jpollei this could take off-----I want a cut for the pedo/super nanny portion.

If it flies, you're in. This could become a lot of fun...

 

[Supernova2008]

Is the GRE a requirement to apply to some orthodontic programs, or is it something that is just recommended to help round out your application ? I noticed that around half of the ortho programs have this listed under application requirements, but it doesn't seem like many of the ortho applicants posting on this board have even taken the GRE...Did those of you who chose not to take the GRE only apply to programs not requiring you to take the GRE ?

My killer GRE didn't help much...

 

[jpollei]

Is the GRE a requirement to apply to some orthodontic programs, or is it something that is just recommended to help round out your application ? I noticed that around half of the ortho programs have this listed under application requirements, but it doesn't seem like many of the ortho applicants posting on this board have even taken the GRE...Did those of you who chose not to take the GRE only apply to programs not requiring you to take the GRE ?

Some programs do require it (Baylor, Minnesota, Florida, etc.) but not a ton of them. IMO it is looked at by some programs in deciding who to interview...there were programs I and other friends of mine both applied to, and the person with the higher GRE score got the interview and the other didn't (specifically to those two programs above, i.e. me over a friend to Baylor; a different friend over me to Minn, etc.) We were more or less comparable in all other things (grades, boards, research, etc) from what we could tell.

Many otho programs associated with a Graduate School at a university will at some point require the GRE (esp. if a Master's Degree is to be offered), though many of those are more like post-match GRE-taking formalities (such as here at UNC). Just check with the schools you are interested in.

 

[gryffindor]

IMO it is looked at by some programs in deciding who to interview...there were programs I and other friends of mine both applied to, and the person with the higher GRE score got the interview and the other didn't (specifically to those two programs above, i.e. me over a friend to Baylor; a different friend over me to Minn, etc.) We were more or less comparable in all other things (grades, boards, research, etc) from what we could tell.

Right, because you are so awesome in every other aspect, you deserve to interview everywhere and the decision of who to call is as black & white as a GRE score.

I have to disagree. Some programs require the GRE and if you want to apply to those programs, you have to take the exam. It's one of those things where a really good score may help you get noticed, although unfortunately it didn't help wayoutwest. But some schools require the GRE because the grad school requires it, not the ortho program. I have average scores on the M & V and had considered retaking it to help my application, but decided not to and take my chances. If you have to stress about any scores on your application, stress about the part 1 boards and your rank.

Interview invites are very unpredictable IMO. Re-invites in a subsequent year are even more unpredictable.

 

[jpollei]

Right, because you are so awesome in every other aspect, you deserve to interview everywhere and the decision of who to call is as black & white as a GRE score.

I have to disagree. Some programs require the GRE and if you want to apply to those programs, you have to take the exam. It's one of those things where a really good score may help you get noticed, although unfortunately it didn't help wayoutwest. But some schools require the GRE because the grad school requires it, not the ortho program. I have average scores on the M & V and had considered retaking it to help my application, but decided not to and take my chances. If you have to stress about any scores on your application, stress about the part 1 boards and your rank.

Interview invites are very unpredictable IMO. Re-invites in a subsequent year are even more unpredictable.

Whoa, whoa. I was not at all saying what was understood judging by your first line above. I know I had a ton of deficiencies as an applicants. All I was trying to illustrate was that two applicants who are esentially the same in all other regards may have GRE scores looked at by programs to determine who to invite. (I was told point-blank by a faculty member at Bayor that GRE's contribute to who gets invited to interview).

I completely agree with everything else you said...I tried to say that (in my second paragraph) but apparently floundered at. Thanks for clarifying for the sake of other readers. Yeah, interview invites are a total crapshoot... The more I understand about the entire process, the more I'm getting that impression!

 

[wayoutwest]

Right, because you are so awesome in every other aspect, you deserve to interview everywhere and the decision of who to call is as black & white as a GRE score.

I have to disagree. Some programs require the GRE and if you want to apply to those programs, you have to take the exam. It's one of those things where a really good score may help you get noticed, although unfortunately it didn't help wayoutwest. But some schools require the GRE because the grad school requires it, not the ortho program. I have average scores on the M & V and had considered retaking it to help my application, but decided not to and take my chances. If you have to stress about any scores on your application, stress about the part 1 boards and your rank.

Interview invites are very unpredictable IMO. Re-invites in a subsequent year are even more unpredictable.

Any advice for those who didn't get in this time, Griffin? Does a GPR really help much? What about changing letters, statement, CV, etc? Thanks.

 

[gryffindor]

Whoa, whoa. I was not at all saying what was understood judging by your first line above. I know I had a ton of deficiencies as an applicants. All I was trying to illustrate was that two applicants who are esentially the same in all other regards may have GRE scores looked at by programs to determine who to invite. (I was told point-blank by a faculty member at Bayor that GRE's contribute to who gets invited to interview).

I completely agree with everything else you said...I tried to say that (in my second paragraph) but apparently floundered at. Thanks for clarifying for the sake of other readers. Yeah, interview invites are a total crapshoot... The more I understand about the entire process, the more I'm getting that impression!

It was sarcasm. It's hard to convey over the internet. Not directed at you, it's just a lot of people think that way - he/she must have gotten invited over me b/c of a better GRE/NBDE/rank/research/leadership. I don't know anything about you to judge you except what you post here, on a semi-anonymous internet forum, and that wouldn't be fair now, would it?

 

[kato999]

All else being equal what type of GRE would make you stand out? I took one last year and didn't do as well as I liked, (1390) but I figured it was good enough. Now, I am contemplating retaking it. Do they take the most recent GRE like they do for the NBDE, or do they just tkae your best score?

Thanks

 

[esclavo]

I know two GP's who practice almost exclusive ortho. They both went to some CE's and both stated that the actual "know how" and "nuts and bolts" of ortho isn't that complex. Both of them are listed as "general dentists with practice limited to orthodontics". They said that the information is highly protected by the profession, more than it is a significant jump in skill and information. Why not go this route? I know alot of pedo's who do some really great profitable little ortho tx for crossbites. What do you pre ortho's/ortho residents think of this idea.

 

[antidentite]

if you don't get in, the 1390 will not be the reason why. 1390/1600? what score are you shooting for? my honest feeling is these schools put about 0 weight in to that score, i had a 1300 was offered interviews at all the schools i applied that required it. no one ever mentioned it. there is quite a bit more relevant information in your application to evaluate people on.

All else being equal what type of GRE would make you stand out? I took one last year and didn't do as well as I liked, (1390) but I figured it was good enough. Now, I am contemplating retaking it. Do they take the most recent GRE like they do for the NBDE, or do they just tkae your best score?

Thanks

 

[jpollei]

if you don't get in, the 1390 will not be the reason why. 1390/1600? what score are you shooting for? my honest feeling is these schools put about 0 weight in to that score, i had a 1300 was offered interviews at all the schools i applied that required it. no one ever mentioned it. there is quite a bit more relevant information in your application to evaluate people on.

Agreed...I'd take a 1390 and walk.

 

[jpollei]

It was sarcasm. It's hard to convey over the internet. Not directed at you, it's just a lot of people think that way - he/she must have gotten invited over me b/c of a better GRE/NBDE/rank/research/leadership. I don't know anything about you to judge you except what you post here, on a semi-anonymous internet forum, and that wouldn't be fair now, would it?

No worries, I'm sure we'll meet sooner or later at the AAO or GORP, etc.

 

[gryffindor]

I know two GP's who practice almost exclusive ortho. They both went to some CE's and both stated that the actual "know how" and "nuts and bolts" of ortho isn't that complex. Both of them are listed as "general dentists with practice limited to orthodontics". They said that the information is highly protected by the profession, more than it is a significant jump in skill and information. Why not go this route? I know alot of pedo's who do some really great profitable little ortho tx for crossbites. What do you pre ortho's/ortho residents think of this idea.

I seriously thought about this, especially after reading some of the threads on DentalTown. I think it is doable if that is your goal, but you have to be in the right location. And, you have to start with your own office with your own patient base to be able to offer it since other GPs are probably not going to refer you ortho patients in the beginning. So I think the difference between going this route vs. doing the ortho residency is time. After coming out of residency, you start doing ortho from day 1 whereas with the GP route, you still have to muddle around with GP and tinker with ortho on the side until the practice builds to be able to flip the two. Here in the Northeast, I think it would be harder since there are so many ortho programs and so many orthodontists and specialists around here, why would a GP refer to you?

My opinion is based on the fact that I am a hired gun in multiple offices, not a full-time associate in one office. The startup is much harder for me as a GP wanting to do ortho than if I bought my own rotary set and apex locator and traveled around doing endo at other GP offices. If I hadn't gotten in, I was contemplating the pedo route because of many reasons, one of them being that you can offer limited ortho (or full if you if you think you can handle it) to the patients.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I know two GP's who practice almost exclusive ortho. They both went to some CE's and both stated that the actual "know how" and "nuts and bolts" of ortho isn't that complex. Both of them are listed as "general dentists with practice limited to orthodontics". They said that the information is highly protected by the profession, more than it is a significant jump in skill and information. Why not go this route? I know alot of pedo's who do some really great profitable little ortho tx for crossbites. What do you pre ortho's/ortho residents think of this idea.

I'm not an ortho resident nor applicant, but one of our full-time clinic faculty is GP that limits his practice to ortho. He's a great guy, very knowledgable, and has quite the practice--similar to the two GPs you know that are limited to ortho.

Seems like a good way to go IF you can receive the same self-fulfillment as an orthodontist does. There's an emotional part of me that says that a GP, no matter how well-trained in ortho, can never be as competent as an orthodontist.

Then a logical part of me steps in a says that's a bunch of bull.

 

[dort-ort]

I'm not an ortho resident nor applicant, but one of our full-time clinic faculty is GP that limits his practice to ortho. He's a great guy, very knowledgable, and has quite the practice--similar to the two GPs you know that are limited to ortho.

Seems like a good way to go IF you can receive the same self-fulfillment as an orthodontist does. There's an emotional part of me that says that a GP, no matter how well-trained in ortho, can never be as competent as an orthodontist.

Then a logical part of me steps in a says that's a bunch of bull.

I'm not a denturist or applying to denturist school. However, the emotional part of me says that a denturist, not matter how well-trained in denture fabrication, can never be as competent as a dentist.

Then a logical part of me steps in and says that's a bunch of bull.

wonderfully analogous isn't it. an orthodontist is an orthodontist, a dentist doing orthodontics is just that. no matter how you slice it.

 

[WestCoast]

Then a logical part of me steps in a says that's a bunch of bull.

it probably is. he probably makes a lot of money doing it though.