What does ORM stand for?

[tiramisucheese]

I always thought ORM stood for Over-Represented Minority, but I saw someone say it stood for Over-Represented in Medicine. Halp pls

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[SpartanWolverine]

The AAMC technically states that URM = "underrepresented in medicine" (and logically, then, ORM = "over-represented in medicine"). This is based on the percentage of docs of a certain race/population in relation to their percentage in the general population. Apparently it used to mean "underrepresented minority" but they decided that basing the term on a fixed race as opposed to a fluid proportion made less sense.

ORM is kind of a made-up term in reaction to URM, though, so there's probably no set definition.

 

[tiramisucheese]

The AAMC technically states that URM = "underrepresented in medicine" (and logically, then, ORM = "over-represented in medicine"). This is based on the percentage of docs of a certain race/population in relation to their percentage in the general population. Apparently it used to mean "underrepresented minority" but they decided that basing the term on a fixed race as opposed to a fluid proportion made less sense.

ORM is kind of a made-up term in reaction to URM, though, so there's probably no set definition.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. That definitely changes the way I read people's descriptions of themselves, lol.

 

[efle]

Iirc, the term used to be "under-represented minority" but that was changed to "under-represented in medicine" by the AAMC in the 2000s. So ORM could mean the inverse of either one depending on time period!

Not sure why the change was made, I think it still means the same thing whenever the term is used.

 

[deleted480308]

O....h, man you
R....eally need a better
M....cat because of your race

 

[bae2017]

ORM generally refers to those of East Asian or Indian descent. Typically people who describe themselves as ORM do not mean that they are white, although I have seen some white people describe themselves as ORM, which is a bit misleading IMO

 

[tiramisucheese]

ORM generally refers to those of East Asian or Indian descent. Typically people who describe themselves as ORM do not mean that they are white, although I have seen some white people describe themselves as ORM, which is a bit misleading IMO

Hmmm. That's how I've been interpreting it, but it seems like @SpartanWolverine 's explanation would definitely encompass white folks as well. Maybe I should have made a poll, haha.

 

[tiramisucheese]

Iirc, the term used to be "under-represented minority" but that was changed to "under-represented in medicine" by the AAMC in the 2000s. So ORM could mean the inverse of either one depending on time period!

Not sure why the change was made, I think it still means the same thing whenever the term is used.

Perhaps to be more of a catch-all phrase to include other communities such as LGBTQ, etc.?

 

[efle]

Perhaps to be more of a catch-all phrase to include other communities such as LGBTQ, etc.?

I think it's still a term referring to racial/ethnic representation. Looking at the AAMC page linked above, it seems more likely it was changed because they realized sometimes the under-represented group isn't a minority in that area. So like take Baltimore as an example, it's majority black (only ~25-30% white) but the U of Maryland SOM would still count a black applicant from the city as URM - not because it's a minority, but because there are still too few black doctors relative to the population size.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I think it's still a term referring to racial/ethnic representation. Looking at the AAMC page linked above, it seems more likely it was changed because they realized sometimes the under-represented group isn't a minority in that area. So like take Baltimore as an example, it's majority black (only ~25-30% white) but the U of Maryland SOM would still count a black applicant from the city as URM - not because it's a minority, but because there are still too few black doctors relative to the population size.

Right, exactly. Gives each school a bit more freedom to use affirmative action based on their local population as well.

 

[Goro]

Perhaps to be more of a catch-all phrase to include other communities such as LGBTQ, etc.?

LGBT are considered URM by a number of med schools,=including U Chicago and JHU.

 

[efle]

LGBT are considered URM by a number of med schools,=including U Chicago and JHU.

I'm surprised by this. The JHU SOM page says it follows the AAMC definition, and looking at the JHU URM program page that is all about promoting URM premeds in the undergrad division, it specifically designates racial/ethic and low-SES, no LGBT mentioned. Is there a source?

 

[efle]

Also interestingly, the AAMC Medical Minority registry page specifically states that LGBT is not included:

I am a member of the LGBT community. Am I considered an underrepresented minority?
No, LGBT is not considered an unrepresented minority at this time.

So it would seem that schools using the AAMC definitions would not consider LGBT to be URM

 

[Goro]

Also interestingly, the AAMC Medical Minority registry page specifically states that LGBT is not included:

I am a member of the LGBT community. Am I considered an underrepresented minority?
No, LGBT is not considered an unrepresented minority at this time.

So it would seem that schools using the AAMC definitions would not consider LGBT to be URM

Specific schools are defining URM as they see fit. I can't remember which school did it, but they specifically cited on thier website that LGBT are URM to them

 

[Raryn]

LGBT are considered URM by a number of med schools,=including U Chicago and JHU.

Are there any decent data on whether the number of LGB physicians/students is actually out of proportion from the population? I understand a drive to be inclusive and certainly don't advocate discrimination from that standpoint, but <5% of Americans identify themselves as LGB, and even among millenials the proportion is something like 7.5% in the absolute highest surveys. The 10% number from the Kinsey studies 40 years ago hasn't ever been substantiated in the real world. Maybe it's just the environments I trained at, but that's roughly consistent with the # of LGB attendings/residents I've known, somewhere in the mid-high single digits %age wise (I don't keep statistics so that's a gut estimate). I've known everyone from medical students all the way up to a residency program director who were in same-sex relationships and not trying to hide it in any way, shape, or form. (You can argue that surveys of identity under-estimate relative to surveys of behavior, but that's irrelevant when the question is comparing the # of self-identified LGB individuals in the field relative to the population)

There's a LOT to criticize with the LGB education we get in training, lack of exposure to LGB specific issues, etc, but I'd be surprised if the under-representation is that significant. I think outreach is important, but using it as an explicit criterion like ethnicity often is might be a bit much.

Note: I'm specifically talking about LGB wrt orientation. The education regarding gender identity and transgender individuals is even worse, and there I would fully believe under-representation. The estimates for trans* identity are somewhere around 0.5% of the population, and yet I don't think I've ever worked with an openly trans physician. Not to say one would necessarily know.

 

[Goro]

Are there any decent data on whether the number of LGB physicians/students is actually out of proportion from the population? I understand a drive to be inclusive and certainly don't advocate discrimination from that standpoint, but <5% of Americans identify themselves as LGB, and even among millenials the proportion is something like 7.5% in the absolute highest surveys. The 10% number from the Kinsey studies 40 years ago hasn't ever been substantiated in the real world. Maybe it's just the environments I trained at, but that's roughly consistent with the # of LGB attendings/residents I've known, somewhere in the mid-high single digits %age wise (I don't keep statistics so that's a gut estimate). I've known everyone from medical students all the way up to a residency program director who were in same-sex relationships and not trying to hide it in any way, shape, or form. (You can argue that surveys of identity under-estimate relative to surveys of behavior, but that's irrelevant when the question is comparing the # of self-identified LGB individuals in the field relative to the population)

There's a LOT to criticize with the LGB education we get in training, lack of exposure to LGB specific issues, etc, but I'd be surprised if the under-representation is that significant. I think outreach is important, but using it as an explicit criterion like ethnicity often is might be a bit much.

Note: I'm specifically talking about LGB wrt orientation. The education regarding gender identity and transgender individuals is even worse, and there I would fully believe under-representation. The estimates for trans* identity are somewhere around 0.5% of the population, and yet I don't think I've ever worked with an openly trans physician. Not to say one would necessarily know.

I'm not familiar with any of the numbers of LBGT in practice. I vaguely remember treading something about LGBT med students having a harder time to finish med school due to societal pressures, but have no recollection of the time that was written. Even the 1990s were a different environment than today.

 

[Danny L]

I thought ORM/URM came from undergrad, where the M is minority in both cases (although white people are grouped in with ORMs even though they're not a minority)

Either way, they mean basically the same thing. I guess med schools changed the M to medicine so they could include more groups in each category

 

[sdhere1234]

It just means you're Asian/Indian.

Everyone's trying to be politically correct, but ORM = Asian/Indian while applying to med school.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

LGBT are considered URM by a number of med schools,=including U Chicago and JHU.

Some schools consider LGBT to be URM? In that case, I'm not a straight man- I'm a transgender, lesbian transvestite.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

It just means you're Asian/Indian.

Everyone's trying to be politically correct, but ORM = Asian/Indian while applying to med school.

Yea, I think I read LizzyM once write that the Indian perspective of medicine is already well-represented or something lol (w/e that means). ORM basically means Asian

 

[Goro]

Some schools consider LGBT to be URM? In that case, I'm not a straight man- I'm a transgender, lesbian transvestite.

And this is why schools look for evidence of commitment to service for community. Too many Caucasians suddenly discover their Native American heritage upon application to med school. Hence, schools looks for a tribal card and service to Native American communities.

So simply saying that you're gay won't open any doors. You have to walk the walk since it's very easy to talk the talk.

 

[Lucca]

Preemptively saying that I will close this thread if it turns into a debate

 

[Dr. Scribe]

And this is why schools look for evidence of commitment to service for community. Too many Caucasians suddenly discover their Native American heritage upon application to med school. Hence, schools looks for a tribal card and service to Native American communities.

So simply saying that you're gay won't open any doors. You have to walk the walk since it's very easy to talk the talk.

If I turned gay today, I bet it'd be really hard for me to walk at all!

 

[Dr. Scribe]

Preemptively saying that I will close this thread if it turns into a debate

I'm just here to ruffle some feathers and collect lol's my man

 

[Mad Jack]

Also interestingly, the AAMC Medical Minority registry page specifically states that LGBT is not included:

I am a member of the LGBT community. Am I considered an underrepresented minority?
No, LGBT is not considered an unrepresented minority at this time.

So it would seem that schools using the AAMC definitions would not consider LGBT to be URM

Many schools have independent policIes.

 

[Mad Jack]

If I turned gay today, I bet it'd be really hard for me to walk at all!

This is why straight people can't pass even the weakest of gaydars.

 

[Lucca]

take back what i said, im closing this thread