What does "osteopathic recognition" mean for a program?

[genessis42]

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I'm just curious, what exactly does this designation mean after the merger?

Does it mean that there's OMT incorporated in the program and MDs shouldn't apply?

Or does it mean that this program is fine if an applicant only takes COMLEX? I always thought a lot of former AOA programs do that

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Yes, it means that OMM is incorporated into their teachings and practices, but MDs can apply. Though, some programs do have an OMM requirement that MDs have to meet by taking a course or something before applying (I think OK state programs are like that) which kinda make it a little hard for MDs.

 

[ciestar]

Some programs won’t take MDs without any OMM experience.

I actually got quite a few interviews from programs with Osteopathic Recognition. I wouldn't be required to do anything OMM ever if i didnt want to, but would be allowed to do workshops if i wanted to. Basically, OMM is built into the curriculum. My program does not have this designation and we dont learn anything about OMM at all. The two programs i did sub-i’s at both had recognition and did have didactics and workshops dedicated to OMM. Plus designated OMM clinic days for DOs.

from ACGME:
Osteopathic Recognition is a designation conferred by the ACGME’s Osteopathic Principles Committee upon ACGME-accredited programs that demonstrate, through a formal application process, the commitment to teaching and assessing Osteopathic Principles and Practice (OPP) at the graduate medical education level.

 

[Billroth_III]

Basically the programs I will apply to in *hopes* that there will not be a flood of MD applicants applying as well

 

[DameJulie]

Do these programs favor DO applicants?

 

[calivianya]

Do these programs favor DO applicants?

Usually, to varying degrees - some will make it difficult for MD students to apply, some will 50/50 MD/DO. Just depends on the individual program.

 

[genessis42]

I got the impression that these programs would be fine with just comlex scores.

Some people in my class don't see a benefit in doing USMLE since it will go P/F

 

[ciestar]

Do these programs favor DO applicants?

Some might.

i applied to way too many programs and got interviews to most of them, even the osteopathic recognized ones, as an MD.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Some people in my class don't see a benefit in doing USMLE since it will go P/F

Not a good decision. Eliminating applicants that don't have a P on USMLE and a Step 2 score is really easy to do.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Absolutely nothing

 

[deleted645092]

The osteopathic recognition only means they have OMM included in their curriculum. As to whether or not it’s mandatory for MDs I have no idea, but it’s completely false that these programs are necessarily former AOA programs or inherently favor DOs in any way.

In fact, one of the top programs in my state got Osteopathic Recognition just last year. They are affiliated with an MD school and aLways have been an ACGME residency.I know they have family med, IM, EM, and gen surg residencies and I’m not sure which ones got Osteopathic Recognition, but none of the programs are especially DO-friendly.

MDs do a short workshop taught by the OMT faculty from my school to familiarize them with OMT, but I’m not sure the extent they have to do it after they start.

 

[deleted898021]

The osteopathic recognition only means they have OMM included in their curriculum. As to whether or not it’s mandatory for MDs I have no idea, but it’s completely false that these programs are necessarily former AOA programs or inherently favor DOs in any way.

In fact, one of the top programs in my state got Osteopathic Recognition just last year. They are affiliated with an MD school and aLways have been an ACGME residency.I know they have family med, IM, EM, and gen surg residencies and I’m not sure which ones got Osteopathic Recognition, but none of the programs are especially DO-friendly.

MDs do a short workshop taught by the OMT faculty from my school to familiarize them with OMT, but I’m not sure the extent they have to do it after they start.

If they aren’t DO friendly why in the world would they apply for that?, I am sure the specific program that applied for it is DO friendly, even if they don’t have a ton of DO’s on the roster they prbly interview and rank DO’s frequently , I see no other reason for any program to apply for osteopathic recognition other than to attract DO candidates, NO MD wants to learn omm anyway....

 

[Neopolymath]

If you apply to O.R. programs you need to ask them straight up what that means for you as a potential trainee. At one FM program I'm familiar with, it means a mandatory OMM curriculum, OMM clinic day each week, a test/practical (wtf?!), and some other consistent OMM junk. The MDs even have to sit through some random OMM bits during didactic time each week. They even have an aPD specifically for the DO side.

I bring this up because "being DO friendly" is not predicated by O.R. distinction and I'm sure most DOs want to avoid programs that quite legitimately force you to continue with the OMM charade during your real job of being a physician. At the program I'm speaking of, you don't get to opt out of that. All the DOs must do it.

Hopefully this program is an outlier in how they operate but applicants need to know the deal so they aren't surprised.

 

[genessis42]

I realized some schools don't want their students to do usmle. They're probably emphasizing how comlex is "our" exam and we should embrace it.

It's not like they can stop their students for signing up for USMLE tho...

 

[DrRedstone]

It's not like they can stop their students for signing up for USMLE tho...

Your school has to sign off on your USMLE application, so they in theory could stop their students from taking it.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

the AOA and all of their residents mean nothing now. certain ones will prefer DO but let us just assume the AOA is no more. Once a useful organization is has outlived its status as a popular commodity such as VHS tapes AND CDs have in the past.


let it die a cold and harsh death as many of those have before it.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

the AOA and all of their residents mean nothing now. certain ones will prefer DO but let us just assume the AOA is no more. Once a useful organization is has outlived its status as a popular commodity such as VHS tapes AND CDs have in the past.


let it die a cold and harsh death as many of those have before it.

LOL not so fast. The AOA merged with the ACGME and literally owns 1/3 of the voting rights of the ACGME board members. If anything, the AOA is more powerful than they used to be before the merger

 

[deleted898021]

LOL not so fast. The AOA merged with the ACGME and literally owns 1/3 of the voting rights of the ACGME board members. If anything, the AOA is more powerful than they used to be before the merger

Exactly, also those fomer aoa programs continue to exist and many are core sites for DO students.. most still primarily take DO’s although a few in competitive specialties have started taking MD’s..

 

[genessis42]

I’m not sure if a DO school has actually prevented someone from writing Step 1. My school mainly requires us to meet with an advisor and make a plan about 2 boards

Although I get the impression that NBOME is relevant still because of $$$$ from us taking their tests

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I’m not sure if a DO school has actually prevented someone from writing Step 1. My school mainly requires us to meet with an advisor and make a plan about 2 boards

Although I get the impression that NBOME is relevant still because of $$$$ from us taking their tests

Before you can actually register for the USMLE step 1 for the first time, you have to verify your identity. To do that you will have to download a form which your school will have to sign off and stamp before you mail it with a passport photo of yourself to the NBME. That's what they were talking about. So if a school wanted to stop you from taking the USMLE, they could easily not sign/stamp the form.

 

[MDMechEngr]

LOL not so fast. The AOA merged with the ACGME and literally owns 1/3 of the voting rights of the ACGME board members. If anything, the AOA is more powerful than they used to be before the merger

1/3 of the voting rights means nada.

 

[hallowmann]

If they aren’t DO friendly why in the world would they apply for that?, I am sure the specific program that applied for it is DO friendly, even if they don’t have a ton of DO’s on the roster they prbly interview and rank DO’s frequently , I see no other reason for any program to apply for osteopathic recognition other than to attract DO candidates, NO MD wants to learn omm anyway....

I actually have met multiple MDs interested in learning OMT.

I think the issue is how you define DO friendly. If DO friendly means genuinely looking at DO applicants as being similar to MD applicants, then yeah, osteopathic recognition is typically pursued by DO friendly programs. If by DO friendly you mean they'd prefer DOs over US MDs, then I would say not necessarily, it just means they want to also attract DO applicants.

 

[DrRedstone]

If you think about it, MDs in primary care only serve to benefit from learning some OMT in residency. It's another easy way to connect with patients and it's relatively simple to bill for. Additionally, they don't face the same level of indoctrination (presumably) that we do in DO schools.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

1/3 of the voting rights means nada.

Having the power to have your voice heard on every decision made at the ACGME means nada? Gotcha!

 

[MDMechEngr]

Having the power to have your voice heard on every decisions made at the ACGME means nada? Gotcha!

You said voting.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You said voting.

On what do you think they're gonna vote? What do you think voting means?

 

[MDMechEngr]

On what do you thing they're gonna vote? What do you think voting means?

Voice all you want. It always comes down to money and politics of the vote. It isn't Capital Hill, but still comes down to majority rule.

 

[Ho0v-man]

On what do you thing they're gonna vote? What do you think voting means?

On all non-DO things, the AOA votes will likely be the same as the majority. On all DO things, the AOA can easily be overridden. So 1/3 the vote literally means nothing.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

On all non-DO things, the AOA votes will likely be the same as the majority. On all DO things, the AOA can easily be overridden. So 1/3 the vote literally means nothing.

I'm not saying they're gonna do anything serious for DOs with those votes. Just pointing out that they have a voice at the ACGME and that's better than before the merger at the very least, and they could actually make things better for DOs if they wanted to. My original comment was in response to the guy that said the AOA means nothing now which is literally not true.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Osteopathic recognition means more ‘duties’ for DO residents like a special osteopathic project/track or a half day of clinic devoted to OMM. It also can mean somewhat protected spots for DOs.

I avoided osteopathic recognition when possible because of the extra requirements that only DOs had to do at the programs I interviewed. I had enough of extra osteopathic distinctiveness’ in med school, didn’t want more in residency. The funny thing is I am actually doing OMM in clinic/rotations occasionally on my own, but there is no way I want to log that stuff or do an extra project on top.

so for my summary:
pro: more DO friendly
Con: extra DO distinctiveness I.e. work during residency.

 

[NontradCA]

It means you should stay away from those programs.

 

[Tstanfi2]

Yeah my program is a former AOA program and we did not go for osteopathic recognition. Mainly because we are psychiatry so yeah not really our thing. I think the family med program went for it but none of our other programs did despite all being former AOA.

 

[hallowmann]

On all non-DO things, the AOA votes will likely be the same as the majority. On all DO things, the AOA can easily be overridden. So 1/3 the vote literally means nothing.

The DO organizations, of which the AOA is only one, on the ACGME board could easily join forces with say the IMG organizations to change policies that adversely affect non-LCME graduates.

Having a voice and a chair at the table does absolutely have an impact, if only to make concerns known. A lot of mishaps in roll out of new policies or marginalization of smaller groups of applicants/trainees is usually not intentional and often happens as a result of not even realizing how a new policy will affect others. In that case, even just having some representation makes a difference. The DO organizations literally had no say or input in the past and relied on groups reaching out to the ACGME to create MOUs and committees somewhat after the fact.

Now, there's nothing to say that the DO organizations will actually have the backs of DOs and DO students, but at least now they theoretically could when it comes to ACGME policies and changes.

Osteopathic recognition means more ‘duties’ for DO residents like a special osteopathic project/track or a half day of clinic devoted to OMM. It also can mean somewhat protected spots for DOs.

I avoided osteopathic recognition when possible because of the extra requirements that only DOs had to do at the programs I interviewed. I had enough of extra osteopathic distinctiveness’ in med school, didn’t want more in residency. The funny thing is I am actually doing OMM in clinic/rotations occasionally on my own, but there is no way I want to log that stuff or do an extra project on top.

so for my summary:
pro: more DO friendly
Con: extra DO distinctiveness I.e. work during residency.

It varies program to program what this means. For many it does mean extra required DO things, for others it's optional. This is why its important to ask each program what osteopathic recognition actually means there.

 

[Ho0v-man]

The DO organizations, of which the AOA is only one, on the ACGME board could easily join forces with say the IMG organizations to change policies that adversely affect non-LCME graduates.

Having a voice and a chair at the table does absolutely have an impact, if only to make concerns known. A lot of mishaps in roll out of new policies or marginalization of smaller groups of applicants/trainees is usually not intentional and often happens as a result of not even realizing how a new policy will affect others. In that case, even just having some representation makes a difference. The DO organizations literally had no say or input in the past and relied on groups reaching out to the ACGME to create MOUs and committees somewhat after the fact.

Now, there's nothing to say that the DO organizations will actually have the backs of DOs and DO students, but at least now they theoretically could when it comes to ACGME policies and changes.



It varies program to program what this means. For many it does mean extra required DO things, for others it's optional. This is why its important to ask each program what osteopathic recognition actually means there.

I didn’t consider the bolded. But, I gotta ask, has the AOA used this power to do anything for DO students? Not trying to be confrontational here, I just can’t recall anything that they’ve done that’s been useful for us since acquiring this leverage.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I didn’t consider the bolded. But, I gotta ask, has the AOA used this power to do anything for DO students? Not trying to be confrontational here, I just can’t recall anything that they’ve done that’s been useful for us since acquiring this leverage.

My biggest issue is the AOA has absolutely zero idea what the average DO wants or needs. They won’t ever actually bring about meaningful change because they are too worried about when they will be able to force us to take PE or opening the latest school that doesn’t have GME.

 

[hallowmann]

I didn’t consider the bolded. But, I gotta ask, has the AOA used this power to do anything for DO students? Not trying to be confrontational here, I just can’t recall anything that they’ve done that’s been useful for us since acquiring this leverage.

Honestly, I have no idea. Personally I don't think there have been much more in the way of big changes affecting students/residents that I would have been interested in done by the ACGME since the merger. I may be wrong, but nothing immediately comes to mind.

This is one of those situations where unless something major changes, their presence on the board won't really be noticed by most of us. That doesn't mean its not important/valuable, just that at that high level of bureaucracy and management, unless there is a big policy change most of our day-to-days won't change.

Again though, I agree that its unclear whether the AOA would actually have DO residents' and DO students' backs on anything.