What exactly is considered "Reasearch"

[ThinkTooMuch]

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sorry my degree was in marketing so in my world research means "google it". it might be a silly question but I draw a ? every time i read (so very often) about med students and pre-meds doing "research." What, how, where? 😳

 

[JJMrK]

sorry my degree was in marketing so in my world research means "google it". it might be a silly question but I draw a ? every time i read (so very often) about med students and pre-meds doing "research." What, how, where? 😳

Contributing to work that will be published in a peer reviewed journal. So instead of googling it, google scholar it.

 

[JonathanMD]

sorry my degree was in marketing so in my world research means "google it". it might be a silly question but I draw a ? every time i read (so very often) about med students and pre-meds doing "research." What, how, where? 😳

Here's the assigned reading that I used for my Research Methodology (Intro to Research) class, once upon a time:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Pub...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242557623&sr=8-1

It's written at a high school level, but it's actually very thorough. If you really have no clue about real scientific research, I'd suggest picking it up.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

Here's the assigned reading that I used for my Research Methodology (Intro to Research) class, once upon a time:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Pub...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242557623&sr=8-1

It's written at a high school level, but it's actually very thorough. If you really have no clue about real scientific research, I'd suggest picking it up.

yes thats me no clue at all. i need to become expert at it this summer, lol. So like WHAT do you do? can you like give me a quick run down?

 

[thesauce]

There are basically 3 types of medical research: basic, translational, and clinical. If you ask 10 different people what comprises these catagories, you'll get 10 different answers. From my experience, the answers would be:

Basic: bench work (pipetting, PCR, blotting, etc, etc, etc.) using non-human models to prove a principle
Translational: taking the basic bench work and applying it to human tissue in order to prove its effectiveness for the clinic
Clinical: Working with patients and/or healthy volunteers to study the effects of an action or drug on their body or behavior.

That's the best intro I can give.

 

[Alvarez13]

Contributing to work that will be published in a peer reviewed journal. So instead of googling it, google scholar it.

By "contributing" he means getting coffee and formatting the article in Word. No pre-med is going to gain any significant research experience in the 1-2 semesters that they do this so they can throw it on their application.

 

[orrghead16]

By "contributing" he means getting coffee and formatting the article in Word. No pre-med is going to gain any significant research experience in the 1-2 semesters that they do this so they can throw it on their application.

I wrote the Material & Methods for an article that was submitted just after my first semester in the lab.

No does not imply never. Rather, few pre-meds do it. If more pre-meds picked up their head instead of always thinking about their application, "research" would not be this daunting, useless, boring thing they make it out to be. Getting coffee and making media is not research, but pre-meds sure like to think it is.

Pre-med researcher <=> greed/uselessness/arrogance/CV-mongering in lab. Start a movement to break the stereotype.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

There are basically 3 types of medical research: basic, translational, and clinical. If you ask 10 different people what comprises these catagories, you'll get 10 different answers. From my experience, the answers would be:

Basic: bench work (pipetting, PCR, blotting, etc, etc, etc.) using non-human models to prove a principle
Translational: taking the basic bench work and applying it to human tissue in order to prove its effectiveness for the clinic
Clinical: Working with patients and/or healthy volunteers to study the effects of an action or drug on their body or behavior.

That's the best intro I can give.

great thanks. i wont bother you with what PCR means, ill google it, lol.

 

[vickpick]

There are basically 3 types of medical research: basic, translational, and clinical. If you ask 10 different people what comprises these catagories, you'll get 10 different answers. From my experience, the answers would be:

Basic: bench work (pipetting, PCR, blotting, etc, etc, etc.) using non-human models to prove a principle
Translational: taking the basic bench work and applying it to human tissue in order to prove its effectiveness for the clinic
Clinical: Working with patients and/or healthy volunteers to study the effects of an action or drug on their body or behavior.

That's the best intro I can give.

thats a good explanation, but research doesnt have to be human related..

also, there is reseearch in other departments like chemistry and physics.. whcih doesnt directly human or animal life..

but all of these count as a plus on the app as long as u worked under a PI

 

[vickpick]

great thanks. i wont bother you with what PCR means, ill google it, lol.

advanced bio lab (or even gen bio 2 - i think) will tell u what that is 👍

 

[parafilm]

great thanks. i wont bother you with what PCR means, ill google it, lol.

A background in bio generally helps when doing bio research...😉 To summarize, you are running experiments, collecting data, and organizing it to be presented.

But it's NOT required. Wait and make sure you actually have some interest in science before looking into getting a lab job. Unless you take pleasure in washing dishes for graduate students.

 

[MDman87]

There are basically 3 types of medical research: basic, translational, and clinical. If you ask 10 different people what comprises these catagories, you'll get 10 different answers. From my experience, the answers would be:

Basic: bench work (pipetting, PCR, blotting, etc, etc, etc.) using non-human models to prove a principle
Translational: taking the basic bench work and applying it to human tissue in order to prove its effectiveness for the clinic
Clinical: Working with patients and/or healthy volunteers to study the effects of an action or drug on their body or behavior.

That's the best intro I can give.

Well put

 

[Ponger]

I wrote the Material & Methods for an article that was submitted just after my first semester in the lab.

No does not imply never. Rather, few pre-meds do it. If more pre-meds picked up their head instead of always thinking about their application, "research" would not be this daunting, useless, boring thing they make it out to be. Getting coffee and making media is not research, but pre-meds sure like to think it is.

Pre-med researcher <=> greed/uselessness/arrogance/CV-mongering in lab. Start a movement to break the stereotype.

No offense or anything, but I don't believe writing the materials & methods merits an authorship on a paper. I'm sure it took some time to do so, but ultimately writing materials and methods is something that almost anyone in the lab could do.

My summer research program made the point that authorship falls under few categories:
1) Designed or contributed significantly to the design of an experiment
2) Was the point person for running the experiments
3) Wrote the majority of the article
4) Contributed strongly to the interpretation/conclusions.

Anything else should merit acknowledgment or is something a tech/specialist does.

It sounds like you lucked out in your lab, orrg. In many labs, it takes years to get published. I'm not saying you didn't work hard in the job but based on what you said you did, it doesn't sound like that really merits authorship. Now if you made an important discovery for the paper, that's a different story.

 

[thinker]

every lab/ university is different in how much it takes to get your name on a paper. sometime it's enough to make the viruses for the experiment or make the constructs

 

[JJMrK]

By "contributing" he means getting coffee and formatting the article in Word. No pre-med is going to gain any significant research experience in the 1-2 semesters that they do this so they can throw it on their application.

No, I didn't. You just picked a bad lab.

 

[Kaustikos]

By "contributing" he means getting coffee and formatting the article in Word. No pre-med is going to gain any significant research experience in the 1-2 semesters that they do this so they can throw it on their application.

Oh man, I would love to show you the work I did/do now that I got to do within a year of each thing. Try walking in our shoes before making presumptuous (and ultimately idiotic) remarks about what you think happens to everyone doing research. This is all in how much you enjoy research and what the person is doing. If you give a damn and actually are interested in the science behind it, then the PI appreciates you more and realizes you're not just doing it to pad your resume.

Research is finding answers, plain and simple.

 

[DrJosephKim]

There are many opportunities to get involved in research if you live near a university hospital. Researchers on all levels are often eager to find people who are willing to commit some serious time into their work. However, you really need to be devoted to providing some serious time (even if this means doing some basic lab work). I know several college students who got their names in several peer-reviewed publications and this was very helpful for their medical school application.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

thanks. I actually attend a research university with its own university hospital. not sure how tough it will be for me to get quality research done as i will be just starting my pre-reqs this fall. any suggestions? oh and thanks for the link JonathanMD ill check it out.

 

[Ponger]

every lab/ university is different in how much it takes to get your name on a paper. sometime it's enough to make the viruses for the experiment or make the constructs

I understand that is the real-world situation, but that really shouldn't be the case. It really downplays the significance of authorship when lab's give authorship for things like that in deference to other types of contributions.

For example, I've worked in my lab for over a year and a half on my own project and my work will be published in collaboration other people in my lab. Because of that, the sum of my 1.5 years of work will be 2, maybe 3 figures in a comprehensive article. Because I'm the junior person on the project, I'll be the 3rd author or lower.

At first glance, there's no difference between orrg and my contributions to our respective articles since neither of us is first author. I just don't believe that authorship is something should be tossed around lightly as a favor to a pre-med for doing work in a lab.

It's not a slight to orrg or anything, I'm sure the work he did is good. But I do have a hard time believing he has a full grasp of the project after 1 semester. There's just little chance as an undergrad (in one semester) he put in the amount of work that merits authorship. Materials and methods is something that takes two days to write; I just don't think writing that section is a significant contribution to a paper.

 

[dmblue]

I understand that is the real-world situation, but that really shouldn't be the case. It really downplays the significance of authorship when lab's give authorship for things like that in deference to other types of contributions.

For example, I've worked in my lab for over a year and a half on my own project and my work will be published in collaboration other people in my lab. Because of that, the sum of my 1.5 years of work will be 2, maybe 3 figures in a comprehensive article. Because I'm the junior person on the project, I'll be the 3rd author or lower.

At first glance, there's no difference between orrg and my contributions to our respective articles since neither of us is first author. I just don't believe that authorship is something shouldn't be tossed around lightly as a favor to a pre-med for doing work in a lab.

It's not a slight to orrg or anything, I'm sure the work he did is good. But I do have a hard time believing he has a full grasp of the project after 1 semester. There's just little chance as an undergrad (in one semester) he put in the amount of work that merits authorship. Materials and methods is something that takes two days to write; I just don't think writing that section is a significant contribution to a paper.

I agree. I am currently in the process of publishing a paper as 1st author. Ironically, my PI is doing me a favor by giving me 1st author, but I did the majority of the work and am doing the majority of the writing.

I wrote the materials and methods section in just a few hours. For the most part that section i copied/rewritten from previous papers published in the lab. The techniques don't change all that much unless you develop new ones. Not too belittle orrg's work, but he/she is extremely fortunate to get his/her name on a paper. Every undergrad that I know who has there name somewhere on a paper worked for at least 1.5-2 years on their project.

 

[Slack3r]

I wrote the Material & Methods for an article that was submitted just after my first semester in the lab.

No does not imply never. Rather, few pre-meds do it. If more pre-meds picked up their head instead of always thinking about their application, "research" would not be this daunting, useless, boring thing they make it out to be. Getting coffee and making media is not research, but pre-meds sure like to think it is.

Pre-med researcher <=> greed/uselessness/arrogance/CV-mongering in lab. Start a movement to break the stereotype.

Writing the "Materials and Methods" section hardly means you significantly contributed. I'd say you're only marginally above the people getting coffee as far as "doing research" is concerned.

 

[orrghead16]

No offense or anything, but I don't believe writing the materials & methods merits an authorship on a paper. I'm sure it took some time to do so, but ultimately writing materials and methods is something that almost anyone in the lab could do.

It sounds like you lucked out in your lab, orrg. In many labs, it takes years to get published. I'm not saying you didn't work hard in the job but based on what you said you did, it doesn't sound like that really merits authorship. Now if you made an important discovery for the paper, that's a different story.

Do you think I just copied the M&M out of a lab book or something? I didn't mean to imply that by just writing Methods I got authorship. It was 100% meant to show that in the 3 months you COULD accomplish something worth merit (All the expns, etc. were done by me; I thought that was kind of implied). I would find it hard--and completely useless--to have someone write the Methods who didn't come up with and complete them. Contrary to your point, the methods writing was not the accomplishment (nor a singularity), but what emerged after a few months of work. It would make no sense of me to establish that I just got authored because I wrote something, when I am arguing against the "typical" (i.e. useless, non-contributing) undergraduate research experience, would it?

I'm not arguing against it taking, on average, years to publish. I have seen that first hand with the progression of my actual project, as it is just now getting accepted. Previously, all pubs have been side projects; luck-of-the-draw, found something sweet, put it in press rather than a toiled project.

 

[dmblue]

Do you think I just copied the M&M out of a lab book or something? I didn't mean to imply that by just writing Methods I got authorship. It was 100% meant to show that in the 3 months you COULD accomplish something worth merit (All the expns, etc. were done by me; I thought that was kind of implied). I would find it hard--and completely useless--to have someone write the Methods who didn't come up with and complete them. Contrary to your point, the methods writing was not the accomplishment (nor a singularity), but what emerged after a few months of work. It would make no sense of me to establish that I just got authored because I wrote something, when I am arguing against the "typical" (i.e. useless, non-contributing) undergraduate research experience, would it?

I'm not arguing against it taking, on average, years to publish. I have seen that first hand with the progression of my actual project, as it is just now getting accepted. Previously, all pubs have been side projects; luck-of-the-draw, found something sweet, put it in press rather than a toiled project.

Pro tip: don't write in a way that sounds like you only wrote the Methods and Materials if you did much more. You are still VERY lucky to get that first publication. Good luck on your MCAT, it will make or break your mostly awesome app. Your research should override most of the other stuff.

 

[orrghead16]

Writing the "Materials and Methods" section hardly means you significantly contributed. I'd say you're only marginally above the people getting coffee as far as "doing research" is concerned.

No, it was a side question that the PI asked me to complete in the first month or two in lab. Opened up a whole new can and it took off. Again, it would be worthless for someone who didn't do the work. I should have been direct: writing => doing.

But, in the end, even if my work was no greater than coffee boy, you can't plop "Coffee maid, et al." on your CV. Although there are many things I have been "tacked on" to, this case wasn't one of them.

If there is any labs that are offering authorship for coffee service, please let me know. I would definitely entertain that idea.

 

[orrghead16]

Pro tip: don't write in a way that sounds like you only wrote the Methods and Materials if you did much more. You are still VERY lucky to get that first publication. Good luck on your MCAT, it will make or break your mostly awesome app. Your research should override most of the other stuff.

Right on, and thanks for the luck. Rereading my original post, it does sound very pre-med-toolish and misleading. I should have clarified.

Very lucky is an understatement. There are few things that are more beneficial that high quality mentors, and I could not have chosen a better moment to call the coin flip right.

As a sidenote, while it took very little time (and an unproportional amount of luck) to get two publications, since then it has been a long dry spell over the past few years as I have worked to put part of my actual project in the literature. I.e. it all evens out in the end.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Oh man, I would love to show you the work I did/do now that I got to do within a year of each thing. Try walking in our shoes before making presumptuous (and ultimately idiotic) remarks about what you think happens to everyone doing research. This is all in how much you enjoy research and what the person is doing. If you give a damn and actually are interested in the science behind it, then the PI appreciates you more and realizes you're not just doing it to pad your resume.

Research is finding answers, plain and simple.

I think of it more as exploring questions. Finding the answer is optional and often requires a bit of luck.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

another "Too" member, hello!

another thing i was wondering about is if the research has to be healthcare/medicine related?

 

[Kaustikos]

another "Too" member, hello!

another thing i was wondering about is if the research has to be healthcare/medicine related?

Absolutely not. Though...it kind of all goes that way in biology.

 

[Evergrey]

great thanks. i wont bother you with what PCR means, ill google it, lol.

Polymerase chain reaction -- method of getting many, many copies of a DNA and useful for many levels of genetic analysis

 

[theacks1]

By &quot;contributing&quot; he means getting coffee and formatting the article in Word. No pre-med is going to gain any significant research experience in the 1-2 semesters that they do this so they can throw it on their application.

My experience. My first day in the lab, my PI turned to the lab's post-doc and said "Remember that new gene we found last year. It looks like a good time to brush it off." He went to his office, handed me some literature on the pathway and the gene's orthologs and paralogs, and told me that the first thing I wanted to do is to clone the gene. He directed me to the post-doc to show me how to clone a gene, and told me to see him when that was done to figure out the next step (binding experiments). Needless to say, I had no idea what I was doing, but through some good guidance and some trial and error, I learned real quick. Two years later, I was printing the final manuscript I had written.