What factors are involved when AdComs decide to "poach" candidates?

[gannicus89]

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Is it purely a numbers issue? i.e. Everyone wants that one person with a 42+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA. Or are there other factors at play? i.e. The candidate has okay numbers but did incredibly well in the interview process.

Edit: And by poach, I mean, actively pursue candidates who have been accepted elsewhere.

 

[partypantss]

Is it purely a numbers issue? i.e. Everyone wants that one person with a 42+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA. Or are there other factors at play? i.e. The candidate has okay numbers but did incredibly well in the interview process.

Edit: And by poach, I mean, actively pursue candidates who have been accepted elsewhere.

That happens?? I thought it was always the pre-meds doing all the courting.

 

[Doug Underhill]

If an applicant is accepted at Penn State and Penn, all Penn State can do is offer a better financial aid package or a cohesive argument as to why Penn State is better for them.

 

[md-2020]

Is it purely a numbers issue? i.e. Everyone wants that one person with a 42+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA. Or are there other factors at play? i.e. The candidate has okay numbers but did incredibly well in the interview process.

Edit: And by poach, I mean, actively pursue candidates who have been accepted elsewhere.

Well I mean if I were an adcom and there was a 4.0/42/strong EC candidate I'd totally pull out all the stops and try to get them to my school.

Probably a case by case basis.

 

[jsquared91]

Is it purely a numbers issue? i.e. Everyone wants that one person with a 42+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA. Or are there other factors at play? i.e. The candidate has okay numbers but did incredibly well in the interview process.

Edit: And by poach, I mean, actively pursue candidates who have been accepted elsewhere.

According to gyngyn's definition, "poaching" more refers to a school who accepts someone off the waiting list when they have been accepted at another school. That'd just depend on their waitlist ranking.

Students may maintain a position on any waitlist until orientation starts at the school where they hold an acceptance.
A poaching school must notify the potential donor school of their intention to offer an acceptance off the waitlist in June. Early in poaching season (April and May) it is customary to give up to two weeks for the applicant to consider their alternative (and financial aid package) and the poacher is not obligated to notify the donor. After May the time for consideration shortens considerably.

Sounds like you're referring to schools that have "recruitment" programs to help them lock down their favorite candidates. That'd either be through scholarships or in some cases, I've heard about personal phone calls or handwritten notes from the dean, sometimes with free school swag.

 

[mimelim]

If an applicant is accepted at Penn State and Penn, all Penn State can do is offer a better financial aid package or a cohesive argument as to why Penn State is better for them.

That is not all a school can do. Phone calls to students, phone calls to their mentors etc. happen. "What will it take for us to steal you from HMS?" - Hopkins interviewer.

Doesn't exactly happen all the time, but every season there are a handful of people that some schools chase hard. But, this typically doesn't have much to do with ridiculously high academic scores. This is generally that MD/PhD candidate with crazy high potential or something non-academic.

 

[gyngyn]

I use the term "recruitment" to describe what we do to persuade our top candidates to come here.
"Poaching" is my term for taking a waitlist candidate who has been accepted to another school. It is not a term in general use!

 

[Doug Underhill]

That is not all a school can do. Phone calls to students, phone calls to their mentors etc. happen. "What will it take for us to steal you from HMS?" - Hopkins interviewer.

In that case, what can Hopkins offer other than financial aid or the ability to work at Hopkins and use their world-class facilities, some of which may be better than Harvard's? I think people are wondering what the "what will it take" really entails?

 

[md-2020]

In that case, what can Hopkins offer other than financial aid or the ability to work at Hopkins and use their world-class facilities, some of which may be better than Harvard's? I think people are wondering what the "what will it take" really entails?

NCAA violation-worthy recruiting trips, of course 😀

 

[Dr. Death]

NCAA violation-worthy recruiting trips, of course 😀

Payment for autographs, buying your parents a house and/or car, getting phony jobs at car dealerships that pay you for not working, have someone else taking your tests and doing your homework. You know just the usual stuff.

Edit: Somehow I forgot about drugs, booze and hookers. Always very persuasive.

 

[Goro]

One would think it would be the other way around!

I use the term "recruitment" to describe what we do to persuade our top candidates to come here.
"Poaching" is my term for taking a waitlist candidate who has been accepted to another school.

 

[deleted393595]

Is it purely a numbers issue? i.e. Everyone wants that one person with a 42+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA. Or are there other factors at play? i.e. The candidate has okay numbers but did incredibly well in the interview process.

Edit: And by poach, I mean, actively pursue candidates who have been accepted elsewhere.

For a second there I thought you were asking if ADCOMs cook candidates 😵

 

[ChillDawg]

For a second there I thought you were asking if ADCOMs cook candidates 😵

Idk, process kinda feels like it...

 

[efle]

I use the term "recruitment" to describe what we do to persuade our top candidates to come here.
"Poaching" is my term for taking a waitlist candidate who has been accepted to another school. It is not a term in general use!

Are you saying that someone who normally you would not accept, you then choose to admit only because they receive another option? As in we wouldn't normally take you off the waitlist, but we will just so X doesn't get to have you?

 

[gyngyn]

Are you saying that someone who normally you would not accept, you then choose to admit only because they receive another option? As in we wouldn't normally take you off the waitlist, but we will just so X doesn't get to have you?

What?
We recruit candidates that are likely to get multiple acceptances.
We poach candidates that have been accepted elsewhere if we get to the waitlist.

 

[efle]

What?

You "poach" people = accept them off waitlist because they were accepted to another school?

 

[gyngyn]

You "poach" people = accept them off waitlist because they were accepted to another school?

No. We take the next best candidate on the waitlist (if and when we get to it).
Sometimes equally good candidates are holding acceptances to very different types of schools.
It is easier to poach from some schools than others.

 

[efle]

No. We take the next best candidate on the waitlist (if and when we get to it).
Sometimes equally good candidates are holding acceptances to very different types of schools.
It is easier to poach from some schools than others.

Oh I see I read it as to poach is to accept because they're accepted elsewhere. Really it's sometimes we accept people who have already been accepted, and if they choose us we say they were poached.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

I cannot imagine it happens very often. Hard to see how it would be worth the effort for any medical school. What would they get out of it?

 

[gyngyn]

Oh I see I read it as to poach is to accept because they're accepted elsewhere. Really it's sometimes we accept people who have already been accepted, and if they choose us we say they were poached.

Yes, to "steal" from another school is poaching.
This doesn't come into play until after traffic day.

 

[efle]

I cannot imagine it happens very often. Hard to see how it would be worth the effort for any medical school. What would they get out of it?

Baller candidates. Some people end up deciding between which full rides they want.

Why a baller candidate is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars more than a slightly less baller candidate is beyond me though. I guess just to maintain prestige/rep

 

[gyngyn]

I cannot imagine it happens very often. Hard to see how it would be worth the effort for any medical school. What would they get out of it?

The "best" students.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I cannot imagine it happens very often. Hard to see how it would be worth the effort for any medical school. What would they get out of it?

Well, you may get a world-shattering superstar like Karl Deisseroth (Stanford MSTP, graduated in '98).

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Let's do a thought experiment. Somehow, the incoming classes at UCD and HMS are switched.
Does anyone honestly think it would matter?

 

[mimelim]

I cannot imagine it happens very often. Hard to see how it would be worth the effort for any medical school. What would they get out of it?

Every year there are a handful of students that are clearly on a different trajectory than your typical pre-med. People that you expect a lot of and whose name you expect to be reading a decade from now. Probably more often than not they fade back toward baseline, but since it costs very little to go after them, schools go after them.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Well, you may get a world-shattering superstar like Karl Deisseroth (Stanford MSTP, graduated in '98).

Damn, this guy got elected to the National Academy of Sciences TWO YEARS after he got his MD...

 

[WedgeDawg]

Let's do a thought experiment. Somehow, the incoming classes at UCD and HMS are switched.
Does anyone honestly think it would matter?

These are two very different student populations.

 

[mimelim]

Let's do a thought experiment. Somehow, the incoming classes at UCD and HMS are switched.
Does anyone honestly think it would matter?

Having seen the admissions side of one of those schools, yes.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Having seen the admissions side of one of those schools, yes.

Nope. Some individuals would benefit from the switch. The institutions? Same.

 

[efle]

Well the UCD kids would largely die off from exposure during the first Bostonian winter

SDN is so bipolar about this stuff. "All schools are samsies" "It would be soooo different"

 

[efle]

Nope. Some individuals would benefit from the switch. The institutions? Same.

What are the institutions but the people passing through them?

 

[mimelim]

Nope. Some individuals would benefit from the switch. The institutions? Same.

Yep, all medical school classes are the same 🙄. Okay.

 

[efle]

Yep, all medical school classes are the same 🙄. Okay.

I'm surprised you'd have elitist opinions about MD classes when you view even the most disparate undergrads as negligibly different

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Yep, all medical school classes are the same 🙄. Okay.

No, I stated some individuals destined for UCD would benefit from admission to HMS. (Rustbeltonc had similar experience)

But, UCD would not change for having the HMS class and HMS would not change for having the UCD class.

HMS would still have tons of cash, great residency programs (and DFCI of course), and great research. They will be able to recruit any junior faculty they want, pay them what they want to do what they want. Honestly, how does the specifics of the medical school class affect this? It doesn't.

And any focused, high performing UCD student could make their way to a Boston training program and contribute. And HMS knows this. So, no they probably aren't sweating individual applicants.

 

[mimelim]

I'm surprised you'd have elitist opinions about MD classes when you view even the most disparate undergrads as negligibly different

Populations vs. individuals. I think that you can have ridiculously smart/talented/productive students at any undergrad or any medical school as a product of circumstance. But, when you take the bell curve of that amalgam of attractive traits, it is shifted to the right at the 'better' schools. If you wholesale replaced one medical school class with another you will notice the differences in student quality. But, when it comes to selecting an individual for a class, what school they come from means little compared to the other things on their application, whether it be for medical school or residency.

No, I stated some individuals destined for UCD would benefit from admission to HMS. (Rustbeltonc had similar experience)

But, UCD would not change for having the HMS class and HMS would not change for having the UCD class.

HMS would still have tons of cash, great residency programs (and DFCI of course), and great research. They will be able to recruit any junior faculty they want, pay them what they want to do what they want. Honestly, how does the specifics of the medical school class affect this? It doesn't.

And any focused, high performing UCD student could make their way to a Boston training program and contribute. And HMS knows this. So, no they probably aren't sweating individual applicants.

How does the specifics of a medical school affect this? Because those are the alumni that they populate their residencies, junior faculty positions etc. from. They are also the future alumni that end up in academia across the country. Prestige is built over time and while they do not sweat losing an individual, you bet that they chase after the top top students as a group. And if HMS can be more 'secure' because of their stature, all the other schools are going to work harder (though I have no direct evidence to show that).

 

[deleted393595]

Well, you may get a world-shattering superstar like Karl Deisseroth (Stanford MSTP, graduated in '98).

*Jaw-drop*

Every year there are a handful of students that are clearly on a different trajectory than your typical pre-med. People that you expect a lot of and whose name you expect to be reading a decade from now. Probably more often than not they fade back toward baseline, but since it costs very little to go after them, schools go after them.

Out of curiosity, what sticks out about those kinds of people? Super-high research productivity? Founding significant NGOs? Or just a holistic impression?

 

[olivarynucleus]

My god I'm glad I don't have to deal with the admissions process anymore, nothing was more emotionally and physically draining. All the butt kissing and preening for adcoms was exhausting. Most people after they get in just chill out, except for the ortho and derm gunners.

 

[Spinach Dip]

For a second there I thought you were asking if ADCOMs cook candidates 😵

I've heard of getting 'grilled' in an interview....so I assume poaching is more or less the same (hot liquid optional).

 

[Shirafune]

Do high tier schools typically attempt to poach/recruit more frequently? Or is it usually lower tier schools trying to persuade a "reach" student to not go HMS or the like?

 

[LizzyM]

One thing that is not likely to cause poaching: a letter from the candidate stating, "you are my first choice".

 

[Goro]

Do a Pubmed search on the guy, and look at the very last page (his earliest papers) and count how many high impact journals he got into! This is a future Lasker/Nobel prize winner...One Of The Gods.

Damn, this guy got elected to the National Academy of Sciences TWO YEARS after he got his MD...

 

[Goro]

I agree completely with my learned colleagues here. To follow up, the student bodies will handle med school the same. Hell, my students can handle a Harvard curriculum. Curricula are pretty similar whenever you go, it's just the delivery method that differs.

It's what they do once they get out of med school that will be different. Their trajectories, if you will, will be dissimilar. LizzyM often mentions that the top schools train the leaders of Medicine.

Whether it's the lab, clinic or administration, the HMS kids and their ilk are headed towards much higher levels.

Does this mean that all of them will be PIs? Nope. I've had wonderful Stanford and Harvard grads as colleagues where I am.

Populations vs. individuals. I think that you can have ridiculously smart/talented/productive students at any undergrad or any medical school as a product of circumstance. But, when you take the bell curve of that amalgam of attractive traits, it is shifted to the right at the 'better' schools. If you wholesale replaced one medical school class with another you will notice the differences in student quality. But, when it comes to selecting an individual for a class, what school they come from means little compared to the other things on their application, whether it be for medical school or residency.

How does the specifics of a medical school affect this? Because those are the alumni that they populate their residencies, junior faculty positions etc. from. They are also the future alumni that end up in academia across the country. Prestige is built over time and while they do not sweat losing an individual, you bet that they chase after the top top students as a group. And if HMS can be more 'secure' because of their stature, all the other schools are going to work harder (though I have no direct evidence to show that).

 

[Carmiche]

One thing that is not likely to cause poaching: a letter from the candidate stating, "you are my first choice".

What would be the correct approach then? I would think that sending a school you're waitlisted at a letter enumerating the acceptances you've received wouldn't be appropriate either?

 

[gyngyn]

I would think that sending a school you're waitlisted at a letter enumerating the acceptances you've received wouldn't be appropriate either?

We already know.

 

[Carmiche]

We already know.

Oh, alright then. Sorry, not too familiar with the app process yet.

 

[gyngyn]

Oh, alright then. Sorry, not too familiar with the app process yet.

In February we can see where accepted students are holding.
About a month later we can see where waitlisted candidates are holding acceptances.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

To follow up, the student bodies will handle med school the same.
Whether it's the lab, clinic or administration, the HMS kids and their ilk are headed towards much higher levels.
Does this mean that all of them will be PIs? Nope. I've had wonderful Stanford and Harvard grads as colleagues where I am.

This is what I am getting at. Yes, as a group the elite medical school class will probably produce more leaders. But Medical school itself is just one way a medical center can do this, and predicting who will do what in 20 years is tough. For these reasons, it doesn't really matter which specific students enroll in a particular school and, honestly you could wholesale switch medical school classes for years and it wouldn't matter to the institutions. So, aside from the occasional VIP "get" no, medical schools aren't wasting time "poaching" students from one another.

 

[gyngyn]

So, aside from the occasional VIP "get" no, medical schools aren't wasting time "poaching" students from one another.

We don't actually want the VIP's.
We do steal students that have been accepted at other schools when it's time to pull from the waitlist.
That is all that is meant by poaching.

 

[efle]

We don't actually want the VIP's.

???

 

[gyngyn]

???

"Special consideration" candidates.