What goes wrong in a (psychologist's) family?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

borne_before

Full Member
2+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2020
Messages
1,235
Reaction score
1,668

With the study on yelling that's active right now. I thought it might be fruitful to discuss this.

From the Last Psychiatrist:

So maybe I am generalizing a bit, but I'm trying to get at something that isn't easily explained by science: why do so many psychiatrist families go bad in the same way?

In my experience (see, there's my disclaimer) psychiatrist-parents go wrong in a very specific way. They judge behavior, not the person. It sounds like a good thing, I know. For kids, it's a disaster.

Psychiatrists identify the behavior, but then focus on changing not the behavior directly, but the underlying cause of the behavior-- which is still not something intrinsic to the person. If a guy with bipolar spends $10,000 in a week, psychiatrists link the behavior to the bipolar, and then try to medicate the bipolar. (NB: "the patient has bipolar," not "the patient is bipolar.")

The obvious problem here is that maybe the guy spent $10,000 in a week because he doesn't give a damn? Or he wanted to impress some girl? i.e. just because someone has bipolar, doesn't mean every breath he takes is related to bipolar. Psychiatrists are going to deny that they make it so simple, but in actuality they do: the moment you raise the dose of Depakote, you are sending the message that the behavior was related to bipolar.

The psychiatrists with children-patients handle their kids in the same way. They teach them what they are allowed to do and what they are not, what is acceptable and what is not-- but make no judgment on the kids themselves. Doing this denies the kid's identity, which is the whole purpose of childhood to begin with. Rules then exist in an invented framework, or worse, in a vacuum. There's no internalization of the rules; there's no superego. Just some arbitrary limits on id.

If you tell a kid that a behavior is unacceptable, the kid has learned nothing about himself; he's only learned that this one thing is something he can't do. But if you make the kid own it-- make the behavior part of his identity, then he has a chance to change his identity. Instead of learning it is unacceptable to take his brother's potato chips away, he can learn that he has a choice: to be the kind of person who takes chips, or the kind of person who doesn't.

I understand the trickiness of this; you don't want to make the kid feel like he is a bad person. But you do have to find a way to teach him that if he does that thing again and again, then he is a bad person. Is that what he wants? Who are you, kid? Who do you want to be? This also allows his to take personal credit for doing something good:

And you can see the creation of a future borderline here. For God's sake, will someone please tell me who I am? Give this storm of emotions some context? Right now, I get angry/sad/thrilled/terrified over nothing, it just comes over me-- I wish I could be angry/sad/thrilled/terrified over something. But all people ever do is tell me what I can and can't do. If I do something bad, people freak. If I do something good, no one even notices. No one likes me for me, they just over/underreact to what I do.

There's a second lurking trouble: parents' control of their affect.

The psychiatrist isn't supposed to get mad at his patient; but then he comes home, and tries very hard not to get mad at his kid-- just tells him the behavior is unacceptable, gives him a time out, whatever. But guess what? The psychiatrist is exhausted, eventually his patience runs out, and BAM! a tsunami of anger.

calm&firm...calm&firm...calm&firm...EXPLOSION.

The explosion part can come at any time, depending on how much patience the parent has that day. And that's exactly the problem. What does the kid learn? That this ethereal rulebook for what is acceptable and unacceptable only has two, binary results: no affect, or all affect-- and you never know what you're going to get.

In the biz, this is called inconsistent parenting.

What the kid needs to know are the rules of the game; they need the parent to be consistent, predictable, so that they can be safely chaotic, experimental, exploratory off of your foundation. You want her to know exactly how you'll react if she tries pot, you want a superego so well constructed you're superfluous. And you want levels of emotion, different things get you more or less angry. We know you went berserk because your boss is a big jerk whose been riding you all day, but your two year old thinks you went berserk because she spilled the milk. Geez, sorry. May as well try heroin, what's the difference?

It doesn't necessarily mean you have to be an angry parent-- your predicted reaction could be anxious acceptance or loving disappointment-- but it has to be predictable. And it has to be about the kid, not the behavior. The kid needs to know you're connecting with them, not what they do, or else they'll think that the only way to connect is by behaviors.

You can see the further development of a borderline here: what the hell do I have to do to get some emotional response from you? Kill myself? Keep pushing until you finally blow up? I don't even feel like I'm alive, but I'm not sure that you are either-- or is it just me, that I matter so little that I can't even get a little affect? You're insanely jealous if I talk to another guy, but you totally ignore me when I'm with you. At least with jealousy you're being real with me. Etc.

Trust me on this: at age 2, a kid feels your rage and your love the same. It's exciting, and they haven't yet learned to fully differentiate the two feelings. What counts is the amount of emotion, not which emotion. (Horror movies and porn are the same to a 14 yo for this reason.) Fast forward 20 years-- that all-out screaming match with your boyfriend felt weirdly relaxing.

And so you have a scenario: busy psychiatrist, often tired, can't generate much emotion past anger-- and it can come at any time. No deep connection with the child as a person-- as their kid, yes; as the sum total of their behaviors, yes-- but not as a developing individual. The kid learns that as long as some things are done correctly-- e.g. school-- they can get away with other things that the parent won't notice, e.g. pot.

Oh, and this is the best part: if the kid (adult or child) becomes a psychiatric patient, they now have a bond with their parent-- and the parent's over-involvement in their kid's psychiatric care is the framework for a relationship. It's analogous to helping them build a go cart.

And that's all the kid ever wanted anyway.

Members don't see this ad.
 
This is literature- an essay/blog that represents (as stated in the piece itself) the views and experiences of the author. As such, it is not of much use for clinical purposes, as it provides no evidence or assurance that phenomenon being described (a) actually exist as described, or (b) are related to each other (or anything) in more that a spurious way. In other words, it's- at best- a verbal interpretation of events, and more likely a speculative interpretation of events (which is fine- it does not purport to be anything else). There's likely some of the usual heuristics at work therein- availability, representative, etc. Personally, I find a lot of the italicized "interpretations" to be a bit of stretch (e.g., "Geez, sorry. May as well try heroin, what's the difference?).

Say what you will about "yelling" study (which was actually about the specific category of "childhood verbal abuse" rather than the general category of yelling), but it was actual research with methods, results, author discussion of limitations, etc. It should not- IMHO- be in any way conflated with a blog post by a single author.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
My personal experiences are actually directly opposed to those of the blog author. I know a lot of psychiatrists and on the whole I observe their children are rather more polite, pleasant, well-regulated, and well adjusted than the general population of kids I see around me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
My personal experiences are actually directly opposed to those of the blog author. I know a lot of psychiatrists and on the whole I observe their children are rather more polite, pleasant, well-regulated, and well adjusted than the general population of kids I see around me.
Yeah- I bet if I put any of you in room with my early-20-something kids and a dozen of their friends and gave you access to all their mental health information, successes and failures in life, etc., you couldn't guess beyond chance what their parents do for a living. I've been seeing some of these same kids for years, and I don't even know what exactly their parents do for a living.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Yeah- I bet if I put any of you in room with my early-20-something kids and a dozen of their friends and gave you access to all their mental health information, successes and failures in life, etc., you couldn't guess beyond chance what their parents do for a living. I've been seeing some of these same kids for years, and I don't even know what exactly their parents do for a living.

Mental health records? No, I could not tell

Personal political affiliations? May have a better chance at guessing.
 
  • Wow
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The number of mass generalizations in that article/blog is pretty impressive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Anecdote to counter one psychiatrists opinion. Our kids grew up to be pretty successful and well adjusted. I don’t think I ever really yelled at either of them. I tend to use reinforcement principles to parent, babysit, work with kids and it seems to work pretty well. I’m not as versed in it as well as @ClinicalABA, but I do ok with it. My son did yell at me once when he was a little older during a heated political debate. It was really his moms fault because she can get way too worked up about that kind of stuff and I was just trying to mediate. 🫣

As far as the article that I posted about yelling, it might say more about how the media reports our findings than the quality or importance of the research itself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
... I’m not as versed in it as well as @ClinicalABA, but I do ok with it.
Don't give me too much credit! My wife frequently has/does find herself asking me "what is it it that you do for a living?" or "would you do that with one of your clients?" in response to my child rearing (and now puppy rearing) practices.

Now, my daughter has just started working part time for my company as a behavior therapist while she is in graduate school, so I either did something right and she's intrigued or something wrong and she's looking for answers!
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
After hearing the depths of human misery, I am grateful for the problems in my household.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
Don't give me too much credit! My wife frequently has/does find herself asking me "what is it it that you do for a living?" or "would you do that with one of your clients?" in response to my child rearing (and now puppy rearing) practices.

Now, my daughter has just started working part time for my company as a behavior therapist while she is in graduate school, so I either did something right and she's intrigued or something wrong and she's looking for answers!
Almost Every behavior analyst parent I’ve known has openly admitted that their own children had them firmly under stimulus control (and the one that didn’t had kids who behaved well around her and not so well around everyone else, plus some sort of intense punishment ideas—not like abuse but stuff like forcing the kid sit in the car and watch the rest of the family eat a fancy dinner through a picture window, making a 12 year old sell their beloved dog because the kid couldn’t provide 100% of the care, etc).
 
I am not a parent, but I can tell you that I am not great at enacting behavioral principles with my dog. Although we DID use exposure around his fear of fireworks, which I am proud of (but he got Cheetos, which is more than my patients get)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Oh, even knowing precisely the game that is taking place we reinforce SO MUCH bad behavior in our toddler.
- Little bugger will make eye contact and give a devilish grin while reaching for the thing he isn't supposed to touch. I challenge anyone to see that and not laugh.
- We have absolutely shaped him into screaming until he gets whatever food he wants. Our willingness to tolerate extinction bursts after long days at work is too low. We fight it and eventually give in.

Knowing and doing are two very different things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I just kinda took it as - it's probably okay to show your kids that you're angry with their behavior - instead of being overly calm and firm during time out. Basically, maybe I could do a better of job of explaining why that bugs me.

But also, I do a lot of star charts (even with response cost), praise, DRO/DRI, etc.

We also used to do a bunch of time outs - mostly for noncompliance. But now we just kinda have to count after the "you can either do x or go to time out."

But as a whole, maybe we could expect the offspring of psychologists to be better off than the population. As a whole, psychologists are on the right side of the curve and IQ is protective of so many things.

See - even I fell for bad parenting porn.

This thread was heartening. I'd like to get a hint and tip thread going for the more senior parents.
 
Last edited:
I just kinda took it as - it's probably okay to show your kids that you're angry with their behavior - instead of being overly calm and firm during time out. Basically, maybe I could do a better of job of explaining why that bugs me.
Using effective principles of behavior shaping doesn't mean you need to be an emotionless robot. Emotions are normal and parents have them.

That's in no way incompatible with relying on modeling, appropriate antecedents/environmental context shaping, and positive reinforcement as parenting tools.

But also, I do a lot of star charts (even with response cost), praise, DRO/DRI, etc.

We also used to do a bunch of time outs - mostly for noncompliance. But now we just kinda have to count after the "you can either do x or go to time out."
I did use time out when they were small too, for absolutely-not kind of stuff like hitting. I don't think I had to do it more than a handful of times.

The positive reinforcement stuff is so effective that eventually there's really no reason or temptation to use negative. Our kids seem fine. They help around the house, have nice friends, get good grades, practice their instruments, tell us where they're going to be, are generally cooperative, etc. We don't have much conflict and I don't have any urges to yell at them. I did have my moments when they were crazy irrational toddlers so I totally understand that. But at this point it just doesn't come up as an issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Using effective principles of behavior shaping doesn't mean you need to be an emotionless robot. Emotions are normal and parents have them.

That's in no way incompatible with relying on modeling, appropriate antecedents/environmental context shaping, and positive reinforcement as parenting tools.


I did use time out when they were small too, for absolutely-not kind of stuff like hitting. I don't think I had to do it more than a handful of times.

The positive reinforcement stuff is so effective that eventually there's really no reason or temptation to use negative. Our kids seem fine. They help around the house, have nice friends, get good grades, practice their instruments, tell us where they're going to be, are generally cooperative, etc. We don't have much conflict and I don't have any urges to yell at them. I did have my moments when they were crazy irrational toddlers so I totally understand that. But at this point it just doesn't come up as an issue.
This has been my experience as well. I also find that accepting that kids will do bad, dumb, selfish, and irrational things helps as well. After all my spouse has to accept that from me and she tries not to get too worked up about it. She attributes most of it to being a boy and she’s not too far off. What’s also funny is how much I respond to positive reinforcement from her. The amount of work I will put into a project just to have her say that it looks good or I did a good job kind of amazes me. I always tell couples that a little praise goes a long way to getting what you want from your partners.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Don't give me too much credit! My wife frequently has/does find herself asking me "what is it it that you do for a living?" or "would you do that with one of your clients?" in response to my child rearing (and now puppy rearing) practices.

Now, my daughter has just started working part time for my company as a behavior therapist while she is in graduate school, so I either did something right and she's intrigued or something wrong and she's looking for answers!
lol. Of course, like the rest of us, we don’t always execute as well at home. I just meant that your knowledge of the specific principles is clearly superior. Applying it? Now there’s the tricky part. 😁
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I think it's also okay to recognize that extinction is EXTREMELY difficult to do. It's hard to sit through it!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I think it's also okay to recognize that extinction is EXTREMELY difficult to do. It's hard to sit through it!

It's easier if you duct tape them to the chair. Oh, you meant WE have to tolerate their behavior. Yeah, that's hard.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
What’s also funny is how much I respond to positive reinforcement from her. The amount of work I will put into a project just to have her say that it looks good or I did a good job kind of amazes me. I always tell couples that a little praise goes a long way to getting what you want from your partners.

I totally use behavior shaping/directed positive reinforcement on my spouse as well as the kids. It really works.

This book about how to use behavior shaping tools on the people around you is life-changing and I recommend it to a lot of my patients who are having marital conflict.

Amazon product
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Oh, even knowing precisely the game that is taking place we reinforce SO MUCH bad behavior in our toddler.
- Little bugger will make eye contact and give a devilish grin while reaching for the thing he isn't supposed to touch. I challenge anyone to see that and not laugh.
- We have absolutely shaped him into screaming until he gets whatever food he wants. Our willingness to tolerate extinction bursts after long days at work is too low. We fight it and eventually give in.

Knowing and doing are two very different things.

Really, shaping practices are always going on. Either we are shaping them or they are shaping us. The Cry It Out method of sleep training has worked well for us with my child. The scream at the top of my lungs until I get cheese puffs method has been very successful negative reinforcement that has worked on us as parents (please make it stop). Fun fact, every time my kid throws are tantrum, my wife's Apple Watch alerts her that she is in a dangerously high noise environment. We have clocked 130 decibels.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I have no idea how working parents survive without sleep training.

That said, our experience with it was comically easy. Dude didn't need to "learn to self-soothe." He already knew and just needed us to leave him the hell alone. After a month of no one sleeping more than a few hours a night, sleep training took like 25 minutes and virtually zero issues in the 1.5 years since that time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I have no idea how working parents survive without sleep training.

That said, our experience with it was comically easy. Dude didn't need to "learn to self-soothe." He already knew and just needed us to leave him the hell alone. After a month of no one sleeping more than a few hours a night, sleep training took like 25 minutes and virtually zero issues in the 1.5 years since that time.
Isn’t that exactly how you teach to self-soothe or tolerate distress? it’s kind of the same for many of my patients. I like the concept of optimal frustration from Kohut for guidance on this stuff and using my assessment of their emotional state to meter it. These books are really good for learning about this stuff.
Amazon product
Amazon product
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
when our 1st born started kindergarten she picked up the phrases "baby mama" and "baby jesus" and taught them to her younger sister. For about a year they used those names with each other whenever we went out. People's reactions were always interesting. At first, wife and I tried to explain what the phrases meant and tried to stop them, then tried hard as we could to just ignore their behavior, but they were pretty hilarious. a year later I think the behavior has been extinguished
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Isn’t that exactly how you teach to self-soothe or tolerate distress? it’s kind of the same for many of my patients.

Well yes, but the process normally takes exponentially longer than 25 minutes;) A gradual shift over a few days to a few weeks is more typical.

I think we were just very lucky to have an innately good sleeper - we had just developed bad habits that were interfering with both his sleep and our own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Well yes, but the process normally takes exponentially longer than 25 minutes;) A gradual shift over a few days to a few weeks is more typical.

I think we were just very lucky to have an innately good sleeper - we had just developed bad habits that were interfering with both his sleep and our own.
Perhaps, or you were just highly attuned to the timing and instituted the shift at the moment they were ready and have a kid with relatively healthy neurodevelopment so it makes the window easier to hit.
 
My anecdotal experience with clinical psychologists (mostly in academia) is that their children turn out pretty well.
 
My anecdotal experience with clinical psychologists (mostly in academia) is that their children turn out pretty well.
N = 3 parents here

All of my PIs seem to have pretty high functioning kids, albeit most are in their kids are in their older teens. If we wish to further add to this statistic I was a total nightmare in my teens and I didn't have clinical psychologist parents.
 
Top