What happens to all the rest of the optometry students?

[Papasmurf1234]

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So from what I understand, there only seems to be 20 optometry schools in the United States and each class ranges from 50-150ish?

In total that's less than 3000 students getting in per year.

So what happens to the rest of the students who don't get in?
Do they just try again? Are there not enough students who want to go into optometry that 3000 is a sufficient number?

It seems like the people who ask if they will get into optometry school with a "3.1" and a "330 OAT" usually get a positive response in saying "they will at least get into ____"



Also, does anyone know how to sign up for the OAT?

I went on the ASCO website and they said I can go on this site:

http://www.prometric.com/default.htm

To sign up for a place. But i can't seem to navigate!! 🙁(((


Sorry if i sound like a noob lol I'm still new to this optometry stuff.

Also, I plan to attend the school in 2013. Which gives me...if i'm correct...one more school year to apply. When do you recommend I take the test?

Thank you so much!!

 

[Shnurek]

There is currently an oversupply in many areas of Optometrists. There are no problems in getting appointments with ODs, call some up in your area. In fact some Optometrists have to resort to taking vision plans that pay them ~$30 or so per exam just to get patients to come in.

What happens to the rest of the applicants? Well they either re-apply or go do other things.

 

[imemily]

Someone please verify this, but when you write the OAT, you are allowed to send your scores to 5 schools. If you want to send the scores to more schools, then you have to pay a fee.

With that said, it seems like many people apply to more than 1 school, since, you are allowed to send your OAT scores to more than 1 school, for free.

 

[advise2u]

Someone please verify this, but when you write the OAT, you are allowed to send your scores to 5 schools. If you want to send the scores to more schools, then you have to pay a fee.

With that said, it seems like many people apply to more than 1 school, since, you are allowed to send your OAT scores to more than 1 school, for free.

All true. Most people apply to about 5 schools (per opted.org).

 

[imemily]

Thanks for confirming.

I'm not really sure what I was getting at with that statistic. Maybe how there seems to be 5x the applicants, but in reality, they are just sending out scores to multiple schools making it seem as if there are that many applicants.

I think someone summarized this and posted an excel file, but I can't seem to find that thread.

 

[Papasmurf1234]

But what i'm saying is it just seems like there aren't enough schools to meet the demand of the students who want to get in.

Doesn't that mean you have to have crazy GPA and OAT scores to get in? I can't imagine someone having a 3.0gpa and 300 oat even having a chance of getting in

 

[netmag]

Maybe, you're talking about this thread?:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=816133

According to the 2010 statistics, there were 2503 individual applicants and like 1639 matriculated students.

Thanks for confirming.

I'm not really sure what I was getting at with that statistic. Maybe how there seems to be 5x the applicants, but in reality, they are just sending out scores to multiple schools making it seem as if there are that many applicants.

I think someone summarized this and posted an excel file, but I can't seem to find that thread.

 

[imemily]

Yes, that was it. Thanks!

 

[319671]

But what i'm saying is it just seems like there aren't enough schools to meet the demand of the students who want to get in.

Doesn't that mean you have to have crazy GPA and OAT scores to get in? I can't imagine someone having a 3.0gpa and 300 oat even having a chance of getting in

well if there was enough schools for enough students then why apply? everyone would get in

 

[Judgment Dragon]

I know someone who is entering IAU P Optometry School this Fall with less than a 3.00 GPA.

 

[Shnurek]

I know someone who is entering IAU P Optometry School this Fall with less than a 3.00 GPA.

IAUPR is like the Optometry equivalent of Caribbean Medical Schools so its no surprise. The MD programs in the Caribbean also take 3.0's and 22 MCATs.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

IAUPR is like the Optometry equivalent of Caribbean Medical Schools so its no surprise. The MD programs in the Caribbean also take 3.0's and 22 MCATs.

What would be the disadvantages of going to a low ranked school in the heath related fields? Would it be poor match ups in residencies and low salaries as an optometrist / doctor (if coming from a Caribbean Medical School).

 

[319671]

I know someone who is entering IAU P Optometry School this Fall with less than a 3.00 GPA.

what is their gpa?

 

[nicmc]

So from what I understand, there only seems to be 20 optometry schools in the United States and each class ranges from 50-150ish?

In total that's less than 3000 students getting in per year.

So what happens to the rest of the students who don't get in?
Do they just try again? Are there not enough students who want to go into optometry that 3000 is a sufficient number?

It seems like the people who ask if they will get into optometry school with a "3.1" and a "330 OAT" usually get a positive response in saying "they will at least get into ____"



Also, does anyone know how to sign up for the OAT?

I went on the ASCO website and they said I can go on this site:

http://www.prometric.com/default.htm

To sign up for a place. But i can't seem to navigate!! 🙁(((


Sorry if i sound like a noob lol I'm still new to this optometry stuff.

Also, I plan to attend the school in 2013. Which gives me...if i'm correct...one more school year to apply. When do you recommend I take the test?

Thank you so much!!

Like any of the other health professions, the people who don't get in do something else. If you let everyone in, the quality of student declines and it doesn't help with oversupply.

 

[Shnurek]

What would be the disadvantages of going to a low ranked school in the heath related fields? Would it be poor match ups in residencies and low salaries as an optometrist / doctor (if coming from a Caribbean Medical School).

Well if you want to practice in Puerto Rico you do not need to take the Board exams for optometry so its good in that sense. However, of the students that try to take the Board exams only around 67% actually pass them. Basically, you have an uphill battle to gain parity with the mainland graduates, to pass the boards and many coveted jobs/residencies will be very hard to get. So yea you will probably end up doing jobs that other optometrists do not want to do unless you are rolling in cash then you can just start your own practice cold (which is very hard to do) and not care what other optometrists think about you.

Same thing with MD Carribean schools. They have to score higher on their USMLE than their mainland counterparts in order to have the same chance at matching at residencies. So most of them go into less competitive residencies like Internal Medicine, Family Medicine, etc. Also, I heard the attrition rates are pretty high. But the schools don't advertise that for obvious reasons.

 

[Jason K]

But what i'm saying is it just seems like there aren't enough schools to meet the demand of the students who want to get in.

Jaesango, you're looking at things from the wrong perspective. There is no reason to "meet the demand of the students who want to get in." What needs to be met is the demand for optometrists by the public. That need has been met and exceeded. As Shnurek pointed out, there is currently an excess of ODs in the US. Few people argue against that point, some will say it's greater and more significant than others, but no one in their right mind will argue that there is not an oversupply of ODs in the US right now.

If someone with a 3.0 and 300 OAT really wants to go to optometry school, it's not an unreasonable feat for that student to get in. The high in my class was a 4.0 and the low was a 2.9, granted the average was about 3.6. I should mention, the guy with the 2.9 was one of the smartest people in the class. I entered my OD program with a much higher gpa, but if I studied as much as he did, I would have failed out in a month. GPA and OAT scores alone are only a portion of you as an applicant and programs know that. If you get an interview with a 3.0/300 and wow them, you'll get in.

As it stands, many programs are having trouble attracting stronger applicants these days so one might argue that lower gpa/scores might be less of detriment in the future. They will never tell you that because they have to justify the ridiculous expense that you will incur in getting the degree, but it's the reality.

As someone who spent a great deal of time, money, and effort getting a degree which I would now probably choose not to get if I had the chance, I'd tell you to really look at the profession and make sure it offers you what you are looking for in its current state. Talk to practicing ODs who are recently out of school (2-5 years), and get their perspective. Talk to ODs who work in commercial/retail settings because this is where the majority of OD grads go after graduation these days. Don't just talk to ODs who have thriving private offices that were established 20 years ago. The view that they give you will be vastly different from what you might get from someone who works as an employee or independent contractor and is 3 years out. Don't rely on what the AOA tells you. Don't rely on the numbers the Bureau of Labor Stats give you, and most of all, don't rely on the ridiculous surveys put out by Money Magazine, US News, and the like. They are fed information by the AOA and private OD programs looking to fill seats with naive students who don't know what they are paying for. No one is telling you not to go into optometry, but make sure you know what it is before you sign on the dotted line. It might be very different from what you think it is.

Whether people like to admit it or not, optometry is going the way of pharmacy, towards a largely commercial profession. Optometry grads these days are flooding into commercial and retail jobs because that's where the only jobs are. As a result, the pressure of the profession is driving it toward commercial practice. Yes, a small number will get employment in private offices, but the majority end up in Walmart, Sam's, Pearle, LensCrafters, America's Best, etc. Don't take my word for it, ask new grads yourself.

Pharmacy used to be dominated by independent pharmacists who owned their own business. When you fill your prescriptions, where do you go? Do you go to a private pharmacy or do you go to CVS, RiteAid, Walgreens, etc? At one point, in another thread, I pointed out that as people flood into commercial optometry, private practice optometry shrinks smaller and smaller as a percentage of the whole. Another poster countered that claim by stating that there will then be a resultant shortage of private practices, allowing for more new grads to fill that void. Nothing could be further from the truth, in my opinion. There is no "shortage" of private pharmacies today despite the fact that they are a dying breed. I believe that optometry will follow the same path, unfortunately. Do your own research and come to your own conclusion. But most of all, know exactly what to expect before you decide on an OD or you might regret it down the road. Just because a degree is there and others are pursuing it doesn't mean it's a great career prospect.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

what is their gpa?

I believe it was 2.5 GPA. He took 6 quarters of Organic Chemistry. He failed 109A, retook 109A and got a C, failed 109B with an F, failed 109B again with a D, passed 109B with a C, passed 109C with a C-. He tried taking 109C again, but the professor would not give him an add code because he used too many attempts to retake classes. He also changed his major several times from undeclared to Electrical Engineering to Computer Science to Chemical Engineering to Biological Sciences to Biochemistry to Chemistry B.A. He took 6 years to graduate and spent 6 summer sessions and maxed out to over 300 quarter units and needed to petition to take more than 200 units.

I don't know if he will be able to make enough money as an optometrist graduating from IAUPR to pay back all of his debt.

Well if you want to practice in Puerto Rico you do not need to take the Board exams for optometry so its good in that sense. However, of the students that try to take the Board exams only around 67% actually pass them. Basically, you have an uphill battle to gain parity with the mainland graduates, to pass the boards and many coveted jobs/residencies will be very hard to get. So yea you will probably end up doing jobs that other optometrists do not want to do unless you are rolling in cash then you can just start your own practice cold (which is very hard to do) and not care what other optometrists think about you.

Same thing with MD Carribean schools. They have to score higher on their USMLE than their mainland counterparts in order to have the same chance at matching at residencies. So most of them go into less competitive residencies like Internal Medicine, Family Medicine, etc. Also, I heard the attrition rates are pretty high. But the schools don't advertise that for obvious reasons.

When you mean "attrition rate" do you mean leaving the residency once they get the residency, or leaving the Carribean Medical School? 😕

EDIT: Also is there an oversupply of Optometrists similar to an oversupply of nurses, pharmacists, and lawyers right now?

 

[Shnurek]

Flunking out from the med school

 

[Shnurek]

I believe it was 2.5 GPA. He took 6 quarters of Organic Chemistry. He failed 109A, retook 109A and got a C, failed 109B with an F, failed 109B again with a D, passed 109B with a C, passed 109C with a C-. He tried taking 109C again, but the professor would not give him an add code because he used too many attempts to retake classes. He also changed his major several times from undeclared to Electrical Engineering to Computer Science to Chemical Engineering to Biological Sciences to Biochemistry to Chemistry B.A. He took 6 years to graduate and spent 6 summer sessions and maxed out to over 300 quarter units and needed to petition to take more than 200 units.

I don't know if he will be able to make enough money as an optometrist graduating from IAUPR to pay back all of his debt.

It will be a miracle if he passes the boards, especially now with the board cracking down on IAUPR. He brings shame to this profession.

 

[319671]

It will be a miracle if he passes the boards, especially now with the board cracking down on IAUPR. He brings shame to this profession.

what are all those numbers? optometry courses or his undergrad courses?

 

[Judgment Dragon]

It will be a miracle if he passes the boards, especially now with the board cracking down on IAUPR. He brings shame to this profession.

Yeah, I agree.

what are all those numbers? optometry courses or his undergrad courses?

The Chemistry 109 series is the Organic Chemistry series at our undergraduate school.

Also is the oversupply of Optometrists as bad as the oversupply of nurses, pharmacists, and lawyers right now or is the oversupply of optometrists only "slightly marginal"? 😕

 

[Papasmurf1234]

Jaesango, you're looking at things from the wrong perspective. There is no reason to "meet the demand of the students who want to get in." What needs to be met is the demand for optometrists by the public. That need has been met and exceeded. As Shnurek pointed out, there is currently an excess of ODs in the US. Few people argue against that point, some will say it's greater and more significant than others, but no one in their right mind will argue that there is not an oversupply of ODs in the US right now.

If someone with a 3.0 and 300 OAT really wants to go to optometry school, it's not an unreasonable feat for that student to get in. The high in my class was a 4.0 and the low was a 2.9, granted the average was about 3.6. I should mention, the guy with the 2.9 was one of the smartest people in the class. I entered my OD program with a much higher gpa, but if I studied as much as he did, I would have failed out in a month. GPA and OAT scores alone are only a portion of you as an applicant and programs know that. If you get an interview with a 3.0/300 and wow them, you’ll get in.

As it stands, many programs are having trouble attracting stronger applicants these days so one might argue that lower gpa/scores might be less of detriment in the future. They will never tell you that because they have to justify the ridiculous expense that you will incur in getting the degree, but it's the reality.

As someone who spent a great deal of time, money, and effort getting a degree which I would now probably choose not to get if I had the chance, I'd tell you to really look at the profession and make sure it offers you what you are looking for in its current state. Talk to practicing ODs who are recently out of school (2-5 years), and get their perspective. Talk to ODs who work in commercial/retail settings because this is where the majority of OD grads go after graduation these days. Don't just talk to ODs who have thriving private offices that were established 20 years ago. The view that they give you will be vastly different from what you might get from someone who works as an employee or independent contractor and is 3 years out. Don’t rely on what the AOA tells you. Don’t rely on the numbers the Bureau of Labor Stats give you, and most of all, don’t rely on the ridiculous surveys put out by Money Magazine, US News, and the like. They are fed information by the AOA and private OD programs looking to fill seats with naive students who don’t know what they are paying for. No one is telling you not to go into optometry, but make sure you know what it is before you sign on the dotted line. It might be very different from what you think it is.

Whether people like to admit it or not, optometry is going the way of pharmacy, towards a largely commercial profession. Optometry grads these days are flooding into commercial and retail jobs because that’s where the only jobs are. As a result, the pressure of the profession is driving it toward commercial practice. Yes, a small number will get employment in private offices, but the majority end up in Walmart, Sam’s, Pearle, LensCrafters, America’s Best, etc. Don’t take my word for it, ask new grads yourself.

Pharmacy used to be dominated by independent pharmacists who owned their own business. When you fill your prescriptions, where do you go? Do you go to a private pharmacy or do you go to CVS, RiteAid, Walgreens, etc? At one point, in another thread, I pointed out that as people flood into commercial optometry, private practice optometry shrinks smaller and smaller as a percentage of the whole. Another poster countered that claim by stating that there will then be a resultant shortage of private practices, allowing for more new grads to fill that void. Nothing could be further from the truth, in my opinion. There is no “shortage” of private pharmacies today despite the fact that they are a dying breed. I believe that optometry will follow the same path, unfortunately. Do your own research and come to your own conclusion. But most of all, know exactly what to expect before you decide on an OD or you might regret it down the road. Just because a degree is there and others are pursuing it doesn't mean it's a great career prospect.

Mmmm....very interesting post!
But yes, I already knew most people get corporate american jobs. The optometrist that I am shadowing now recently opened his own practice after working at walmart for 10 years.
I just don't see myself doing anything else..perhaps a car mechanic but I think it'll be best if i leave that as a hobby.

I just love the atmosphere of optometry...i've wanted to do it since i were a kid because it was the only doctor that didn't give me a heart attack lol

Money is a concern but I figure if i go to towns that aren't as saturated then i'll be ok. I know at least I won't struggle to live and I'll have a decent comfortable life.....right????

 

[Papasmurf1234]

I believe it was 2.5 GPA. He took 6 quarters of Organic Chemistry. He failed 109A, retook 109A and got a C, failed 109B with an F, failed 109B again with a D, passed 109B with a C, passed 109C with a C-. He tried taking 109C again, but the professor would not give him an add code because he used too many attempts to retake classes. He also changed his major several times from undeclared to Electrical Engineering to Computer Science to Chemical Engineering to Biological Sciences to Biochemistry to Chemistry B.A. He took 6 years to graduate and spent 6 summer sessions and maxed out to over 300 quarter units and needed to petition to take more than 200 units.

Wow..that is ridiculous...I am shocked that he got in...

Aren't ochem curves so ridiculously high that it's impossible to fail?
I barely understood ochem in general and I still got mostly As

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Wow..that is ridiculous...I am shocked that he got in...

Aren't ochem curves so ridiculously high that it's impossible to fail?
I barely understood ochem in general and I still got mostly As

I am shocked he got accepted too. At our school, organic chemistry is "easy" due to the fact that it is the same professor teaching every quarter so she reuses her old tests. She has been teaching organic chemistry and recycling her organic chemistry tests for like over 35 years. So if you have connections with upper level students then you will get an A in organic chemistry at my school pretty easily. She doesn't curve, but you don't need the curve if you have her old tests. I'm guessing my friend probably didn't have access to her old tests then.

I also forgot to mention that his exact GPA is 2.53 and his exact OAT score is 300.

According to this:

http://www.optonet.inter.edu/admreq_summ.asp

he barely satisfied the minimum requirement for both GPA and OAT score. Talk about being the worst incoming entering optometry student at the worst optometry school. 😱

Does anyone know the answer to my question by any chance? Is the oversupply of Optometrists as bad as the oversupply of nurses, pharmacists, and lawyers right now or is the oversupply of optometrists only "slightly marginal"? 😕

 

[319671]

I am shocked he got accepted too. At our school, organic chemistry is "easy" due to the fact that it is the same professor teaching every quarter so she reuses her old tests. She has been teaching organic chemistry and recycling her organic chemistry tests for like over 35 years. So if you have connections with upper level students then you will get an A in organic chemistry at my school pretty easily. She doesn't curve, but you don't need the curve if you have her old tests. I'm guessing my friend probably didn't have access to her old tests then.

I also forgot to mention that his exact GPA is 2.53 and his exact OAT score is 300.

According to this:

http://www.optonet.inter.edu/admreq_summ.asp

he barely satisfied the minimum requirement for both GPA and OAT score. Talk about being the worst incoming entering optometry student at the worst optometry school. 😱

Does anyone know the answer to my question by any chance? Is the oversupply of Optometrists as bad as the oversupply of nurses, pharmacists, and lawyers right now or is the oversupply of optometrists only "slightly marginal"? 😕

thanks for that info JDragon. I would also like to know about oversupply? I heard that in CA it is near impossible to start a private practice, because of all the competition with old ODs that have a much stronger patient base?

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Does anyone know the job prospects of an optometrist who graduated from IAUPR and works in PR in 2011? I'm just curious. Like would it be enough to make money to pay back all of your debts without defaulting?

 

[Jason K]

Does anyone know the answer to my question by any chance? Is the oversupply of Optometrists as bad as the oversupply of nurses, pharmacists, and lawyers right now or is the oversupply of optometrists only "slightly marginal"? 😕

There's really not a good answer to your question because the professions you listed are so different from optometry. I'd say, comfortably, that the worst by pure numbers is probably law. They're living what optometry might be experiencing down the road if things don't change soon. I have two friends who are established successful attorneys and they tell me that there is a new "niche" that's been developing for law grads, and it's not a good one. It's the non-partner track associate position. It used to be that new grads would go to work for a firm, bust their butt, and work towards a partnership position. Now days, there are so many lawyers, that firms have started hiring attorneys for positions that have no potential for partnership. The pay is extremely low and the workloads are often ridiculous. The same process is already smoldering in optometry. Private practices are not often hiring FT associates these days, they instead hire several PT associates and pay them no benefits. It makes total financial sense from the part of the hiring practice; hire an independent contractor, pay no payroll tax on them, provide them no benefits, have them work evenings, weekends, etc. There are so many new grads out looking for any work they can find, PT positions get snapped up immediately. In a healthy optometry market, FT positions would be the primary goal and PT positions would not be forced on grads, but chosen by those who want them. Right now, in many markets, grads don't even set their sights on FT positions because they're not there. They expect to take a string of PT jobs to earn enough to pay the bills.

As far as nursing and pharmacy, they are both professions which do not offer independent practice (for the most part) and most graduates are going to seek some sort of employed/contracted position. Private practice is not an option. The comparison doesn't really mean much. The answer to your question, for any field, lies in supply vs. demand. If you have a small town with 6 ODs and only 1 or 2 are needed, you might have a saturation problem that's as bad as the one in Los Angeles. Of course, the difference there is, you'd be more likely to be able to bring in patients by "out-shining" your competitors if there are only 5 to deal with. In a large market, winning by "out-shining" is a lot harder.

Don't worry about other professions and what they are doing. Choose optometry or don't choose optometry, but do it based on what you see in the profession, what it offers its grads these days, and how that matches up with what you are after. There's nothing that irks me more than people who come one here and say "So what that there's too many ODs,.....there's also too many Xs, Ys, and Zs." The comparisons are all different. Once you choose optometry, all of those other professions will cease to exist for you. The only thing that will matter is how YOUR profession is surviving. I only care about what's happening in optometry right now. There are way too many ODs for the population we serve in just about every place in the US and, in many different ways, it's dragging the profession down. Some say, "Oh, it's not making the profession worse, it's just changing it." If someone doesn't see that the commercialization of optometry and the other changes that are going on now are not a detriment, in my opinion, they're living in a dreamworld. .......Or they're a corporate exec at Luxottica or Walmart.

 

[Jason K]

Money is a concern but I figure if i go to towns that aren't as saturated then i'll be ok. I know at least I won't struggle to live and I'll have a decent comfortable life.....right????

Take a look at some of the smaller cities/towns you're thinking about. Does Las Cruces New Mexico sound appealing? There's a a FT opening there right now in a private practice which has gone unfilled for a while. Places that aren't saturated with ODs are places that most people don't want to live. If a small, poor town in the middle of nowhere strikes your fancy, have at it, you might do much better than most of your colleagues. Make sure you look at what those towns are like, though. A visit can be very enlightening. If you have thoughts of finding a beautiful, small, town in some scenic setting, think again. Chances are 10 other ODs have already "dug in" and they're not going to welcome a newcomer who want's to take away their patients.

 

[KHE]

Oddly enough, the "saturation" level of a place has relatively little to do how successful one can be as an OD. I've seen new doctors absolutely thrive in areas where theres eye doctors and commercial dumps on every corner. I've seen doctors seek out these "low competition" areas and who end up being the only game in town and they die.

The fact that a city like "San Francisco" is saturated means little. People in Colma aren't going to get their eyes examined in Sausalito.

The fact that a city like "New York" is saturated means little. People on the upper east side aren't going to travel to Soho to get their eyes examined.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be aware of potential competition but the key is and always has been access to medical plans.

 

[Jason K]

Oddly enough, the "saturation" level of a place has relatively little to do how successful one can be as an OD. I've seen new doctors absolutely thrive in areas where theres eye doctors and commercial dumps on every corner. I've seen doctors seek out these "low competition" areas and who end up being the only game in town and they die.

The fact that a city like "San Francisco" is saturated means little. People in Colma aren't going to get their eyes examined in Sausalito.

The fact that a city like "New York" is saturated means little. People on the upper east side aren't going to travel to Soho to get their eyes examined.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be aware of potential competition but the key is and always has been access to medical plans.

KHE, sorry, but many ODs and consultants, far more experienced and knowledgeable than I would disagree with you on this. Saturation is a key issue for success in optometry. If it weren’t, then why would you, yourself state that new schools, pumping out more ODs, leading to further saturation, is a bad idea?

The number of ODs per capita in a given population is something that I'm sure you didn't overlook when you bought into your office. Doing a search for ODs in the immediate town you practice in turns up you and one other OD. (I’m not going to indicate where you practice or who you are). The next town north has 7-8 ODs. So, in your situation, you’re right, the people in your town don’t want or need to drive north to the next town up so they stay with you and the one other OD in your town (granted, I’m going on google maps here so the numbers might not be spot on.) I don't see how people in Colma not wanting to go to Sausalito has anything to do with the situation, though. A simple search on google maps for optometrists in Colma turns up about 100 ODs for an area that's barely 2 sq miles. I'm sure those folks have no intention of driving to Sausalito for eye care. They’d have no reason to, just like the folks in your town have no reason to drive north for their eye care. I'm not claiming it's the only issue, it certainly is not, but it is extremely critical and I really don't see how someone could argue that it is not. As a new doc in town, you need to attract new patients and that takes time AND patients to attract.

It's not an ideal comparison, but I liken it to draining water through a pasta strainer. The more holes there in the strainer, the less chance there is for water to drain through "your hole." The fewer holes there are, the more chance there is that water will flow through "your hole." People with access to medical and vision plans have, and always will, have access to those plans with the other docs in your population. Simply arriving on scene and opening your doors with access to a host of medical plans is not going to set you apart from your peers and will not somehow draw patients away from other docs to you.

As far as the “key” always having been access to medical plans? Some of the most successful OD practices I’ve ever set foot in, ones grossing in the multiple millions, are over 50 years old and have only billed medical for a small portion of their existence. I don’t see how one can say that it has always been the key issue. Billing medical for ODs might be big now, but I don’t think it’s always been that way.

 

[KHE]

KHE, sorry, but many ODs and consultants, far more experienced and knowledgeable than I would disagree with you on this. Saturation is a key issue for success in optometry. If it weren't, then why would you, yourself state that new schools, pumping out more ODs, leading to further saturation, is a bad idea?

Let me try to clarify that statement....

Yes, obviously all things being equal, you would rather be in an area where there is less competition. My experience however is that the level of competition is not the primary factor determining success. Is it a factor? Well yes, I would never say ignore it. But I would not consider it a deal breaker. I've seen plenty of practices who were the "only game in town" and they failed miserably. I've seen plenty of practices started and thriving in areas where there's a Walmart and an Eyemasters and a Lenscrafters on every corner.

The number of ODs per capita in a given population is something that I'm sure you didn't overlook when you bought into your office. Doing a search for ODs in the immediate town you practice in turns up you and one other OD. (I'm not going to indicate where you practice or who you are). The next town north has 7-8 ODs. So, in your situation, you're right, the people in your town don't want or need to drive north to the next town up so they stay with you and the one other OD in your town (granted, I'm going on google maps here so the numbers might not be spot on.)

I practice in Wallingford, CT. In Wallingford there is me, my partner, two ODs accross town, two ODs in a strip mall next door to us, a solo guy downtown, a solo guy who is part of an optical shop, and the Walmart next door. So that's a total of 9 ODs There are also 5 ophthalmologists.

I don't see how people in Colma not wanting to go to Sausalito has anything to do with the situation, though. A simple search on google maps for optometrists in Colma turns up about 100 ODs for an area that's barely 2 sq miles. I'm sure those folks have no intention of driving to Sausalito for eye care.

What I'm trying to say is that saying "San Francisco is saturated" means little because people would generally consider Colma and Sausalito to be part of San Francisco though it's quite conceivable that done right, a practice set up in Sausalito will thrive well even though "San Francisco is saturated."

It's not an ideal comparison, but I liken it to draining water through a pasta strainer. The more holes there in the strainer, the less chance there is for water to drain through "your hole." The fewer holes there are, the more chance there is that water will flow through "your hole." People with access to medical and vision plans have, and always will, have access to those plans with the other docs in your population. Simply arriving on scene and opening your doors with access to a host of medical plans is not going to set you apart from your peers and will not somehow draw patients away from other docs to you.

I never said it would.

As far as the "key" always having been access to medical plans? Some of the most successful OD practices I've ever set foot in, ones grossing in the multiple millions, are over 50 years old and have only billed medical for a small portion of their existence. I don't see how one can say that it has always been the key issue. Billing medical for ODs might be big now, but I don't think it's always been that way.

Yes, that's true. It is a relatively new thing. I'm talking about building a practice in this day and age.

 

[Jason K]

Let me try to clarify that statement....

Yes, obviously all things being equal, you would rather be in an area where there is less competition. My experience however is that the level of competition is not the primary factor determining success. Is it a factor? Well yes, I would never say ignore it. But I would not consider it a deal breaker. I've seen plenty of practices who were the "only game in town" and they failed miserably. I've seen plenty of practices started and thriving in areas where there's a Walmart and an Eyemasters and a Lenscrafters on every corner.

I would never argue that saturation is the only thing to think about. Clearly, if one moves into a town with no eye care available and offers poor quality or the wrong type of care, patients will seek their care elsewhere even if it means a drive out of town. In that regard, I totally agree that the per capita OD count is certainly not a guaranteed measure of potential success in a community.

I would also say, and I think most would agree, that saturation does not have the same impact on an established practice as it would on a new guy starting up in the same town, and maybe this is the point you're trying to make. In many saturated cities, there are OD practices that are kicking ass and taking names, making a ton of money for their OD owners. I would never claim that an excess of ODs is doing much of anything to those docs. Sure, open up 23 Walmarts within a 2 mile radius of these folks, they won't blink because their patients are not likely to go from that type of quality care to a doc-in-the-box. A practice that already has its "piece of the pie" needs to worry about holding on to what it has already established and growing as much as possible on top of that foundation, which is a lot easier than trying to grow from zero by essentially taking some of someone else's away from them. It's the newer doctors, a couple of years out of school, who want to start their own place. Assuming they provide good quality care that is appropriate for the community they're in, it's hard to argue that they would not have a much higher "mountain to climb" in a heavily saturated setting competing with other established, quality doctors than they would in an underserved one.

Similarly, if someone were to buy an existing practice that's well managed and has a great cash flow, then, arguably, heavy saturation in their community probably wouldn't have a strong effect on them either so long as they kept things moving as they were before the ownership transfer, not an easy task, I'm sure, but easier than starting from nothing.

My overall point about all of this stuff is that private practice faces obstacles that are not being overcome right now and are not likely to be overcome in the future based on the way things are going. New ODs are not opening offices anymore, they're going into commercial/retail because that's what's available to them. There are multiple factors that are contributing to that problem, but it's happening any way you look at it. That process is shrinking private practice every year that goes by. At some point, and I don't think we're there yet, but at some point we'll reach a "critical ratio" of commercial optometry : private practice optometry that the profession will not be able to recover from. That's at the core of my fear of the saturation issue; that we're going to end up like pharmacy. People will think of going to the "eye doctor" when they go to pick up laundry detergent and a gallon of milk at the grocery store. When I think of filling an Rx for my kids, I don't think "Hey, I'm gonna go down the street to that compounding pharmcy that's been there since 1965." I think, "I've got to get some ground beef, I'll pick up the Rx when I do that." What do you see in any Walmart, Costco, Target, Sam's, etc? You see a pharmacist and an OD working literally side by side. That's what the saturation issue is doing, it's contributing to the transformation of our profession into something that most ODs probably don't want it to be.

It goes beyond the guy in the one lane private office trying to figure out how to get patients into his practice when there are a few too many ODs in his town. It's about the future of the whole profession. I'm not the only one out there screaming this stuff from the rooftops. The stuff that I'm saying is on the minds of many ODs in the US right now. The best part is, I'm only 6 years out of school and this problem started long before I ever came on the scene so basically, I am, like all the new grads coming out these days, contributing to the problem.