What happens to good students who go to offshore schools?

[Taskmaster]

After being shut out for interviews this cycle by both MD and DO schools, I have pretty much resigned myself to the fact that my only opportunities left to get into medical school are either SMP or IMG. Everything about my application is solid except for my GPA, and there is nothing I can do to fix it. In a previous life, I made many poor decisions, which resulted in grades so bad that, even with my substantial upward trend in recent years (4.0 in 60+ credits of mostly hard sciences), my overall and science GPAs are still sub 3.0, and would be even if I made straight As full time for two more years. If I get into a US medical school, it will be because they were willing to look at my body of work in recent years and conclude that the person and student that I am today is not the person and student that I was years ago. So far, nobody has been willing to do this, and I suspect that most application reviewers never make it that far in the first place, because they take one look at my GPAs and toss my application into the "do not bother reading" pile and move on to the next applicant. Which is understandable. However, I have accomplished enough academically in recent years (high GPA in hard sciences, solid MCAT), that there is no question in my mind that I am ready to (and capable of) handling a medical school curriculum.

Obviously, the overall outlook for people from offshore schools is pretty bleak, but I think a lot of this can be explained by who they admit in the first place. Lots of students fail out or end up not passing boards, because they take many people who have no business being in medical school in the first place. I mean, if you take people who give it their all academically and still can't manage better than a 3.0 or a 490 MCAT even when they're at their best, then of course lots of them are going to flunk out. They simply are not med school material. But, what happens to people like me who have the capacity and drive to perform at the same level as people who are admitted to US schools, who go to foreign schools and graduate in 4 years and pass boards on their first attempt? Do lots of them still end up with no residencies too? I've read that blog million dollar mistake, but that guy is basically whining about not being able to become an orthopod (DUH!). At the end of the day, he still got an academic IM position, and will have all the fellowship opportunities that go with it. I want to go into primary care, so I'm mainly concerned with getting an IM or FM position.

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[ndafife]

Knowing nothing about your application other than that you think you have a solid mcat and application other than your gpa. I'm going to say everyone who goes to the Caribbean thinks they are academically capable to do med school and they should be a doctor, yet many fail out and others don't match.

So if the rest of your application is as good as you think it is and you think you're academically capable of doing medical school, do an SMP and prove it.

 

[Conflagration]

OP, what state are you in? If you’re in TX, they have a fresh start program that could save your butt in a couple of years.

Also, I’m not sure how many SMPs take people with sub 3.0 GPAs. I’m of course willing to be corrected on this point, since I don’t know, but SMPs can be competitive to get into.

If you’re really so screwed that two years of As wouldn’t bring you to a 3.0, you would have had to have a pretty spectacular pattern of screwing up with a lot of credit hours. I would think that this pattern is of concern to an adcom, and that this may be why you’re not getting a response. You say you’re doing better, but how much better and for how long? Those are important answers that will change how you should work with your application.

Many places have cutoffs at 3.0, did you check which ones did before you applied?

I think that you’re free to do what you want, OP, but you need to know what kind of risks you’re making by going to the Caribbean. Are you willing to pay six figure debt without a medical license if you fail? Are you willing to scramble and possibly not match, even if you make it through four years of medical school? Are you aware of the chances of failing out of these schools? That needs to inform your decision.

I don’t envy you, OP. If I were you I would try to bring my grades up to a 3.0 and go into an SMP. If that didn’t work, I would either go PA/NP so I could be in healthcare even if I couldn’t be a physician. But that’s where you are now. Good luck OP.

 

[DokterMom]

Honestly, you sound like a perfect candidate for an SMP, especially if you can get into one with a linkage linkage program. From what you've said, you've got two good academic years behind you after multiple years of 'poop' GPA. Give yourself one more academic year to show you can sustain greatness, and that the "new you" is the real you. You've got a strong MCAT, which demonstrates that you're smart enough to succeed. You didn't mention your ECs, but one more shot at US MD/DO gives you an extra year to improve them -- six months if you start now.

Sure, maybe you'll be able to be one of the successful IMGs -- But even though you could probably start sooner in the Caribbean, so many people overlook the extra time it frequently takes to complete your medical education at the overseas schools. So start sooner -- finish at the same time.

It sounds like the only thing really keeping you out is previous academic failure which you're so close to discrediting. Search out the schools that reward reinvention. Network to find ways to circumvent the auto-screen. Try an SMP. Give it one more shot --

 

[altblue]

What are your GPAs and MCAT (a "solid" MCAT could be 509 or a 517!) though? What's your trend?

 

[Lawpy]

But, what happens to people like me who have the capacity and drive to perform at the same level as people who are admitted to US schools, who go to foreign schools and graduate in 4 years and pass boards on their first attempt? Do lots of them still end up with no residencies too?

It depends on their application profile.

1. They match into their specialty of choice at residency of choice.

2. They match into their specialty of choice at lower ranked/less competitive/less ideal residency.

3. They match into a less competitive/less ideal specialty.

4. They fail to match and have to SOAP their way into any residency.

5. They go unmatched.

It's important to note that the more competitive the specialty and residency are, the more adversely IMGs will be affected and the greater the chance of going unmatched. It's possible to match into primary care at a community residency but there is still the threat of going unmatched or having to SOAP.

The actual data are kindly provided by @gonnif above and I would take a detailed look into them.

 

[Ibn Sina MD]

Do an SMP. Going IMG makes your life a lot harder than it has to be.

If your MCAT is above a 509 and your gpa is a 2.7-2.9 you should be able to get a newer DO school acceptance.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Give us a breakdown of the actual numbers so we can actually give help instead of speculate.

 

[Kingsmen2018]

Im gunna say it.

good students don't.

 

[altblue]

Im gunna say it.

good students don't.

What if someone goes through a master's program, works hard, does decent on there to show a solid work ethic, and gets a decent MCAT to show potential for boards, like a 510, but has a sub 2.5 GPA. Then they could consider carribb

 

[getdown]

Either you make it or you fail out. Probably about a 50-50 chance of either happening. So if you're willing to bet 300K + in debt for a coin flip than be my guest.

 

[Master Thinker]

Honestly, pretty much everyone who plans to attend offshore med schools believe that they are good capable students

 

[LibBum]

I have many classmates that went to med-masters programs throughout Texas, one with a sub 3.0 undergrad GPA. They put in the effort to do well while gaining the other experiences and MCAT needed to be accepted into an MD program. It takes time, a lot of time, but it can be done.

I was also a post-screw up. It took 5 years of work and 1 application cycle to reach the other side. Alternatively, I have several friends that did not want to put in the effort to make the corrections needed and are now attending Ross - outcome to be determined.

 

[Robin-jay]

They are never heard from again.

 

[21Rush12]

They are never heard from again.

 

[Turkishking]

OP needs to update us!

 

[GypsyHummus]

OP, maybe 15 years ago you could have had a case for Caribbean schools if you were a late bloomer. Now, it is too risky.

If you have a 3.0 or below and still want medicine, I recommend the following:

1) Do an affiliated SMP with a medical school. Make sure they have an acceptance built in like VCOM. Do more research on the forums to find which ones have the auto acceptance. You must Ace this, as it will forever dictate you chances at medical school. Be forward that a majority are actively trying to fail out students.

2) Look into podiatry school. Yes, ew feet and yes they have their own set of issues, but if you get locked out of a US medical school, it is the closest thing to medicine that you can get. Plus, residency placement is much better than Caribbean ever will be, and they arnt actively trying to fail you out. You may actually like doing foot surgery, who knows.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Eh, hike that MCAT up to a 515. Its getting competative now, most newer schools have MCAT in the 502 and GPA in the 3.5 range.

Do an SMP. Going IMG makes your life a lot harder than it has to be.

If your MCAT is above a 509 and your gpa is a 2.7-2.9 you should be able to get a newer DO school acceptance.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

most newer schools have MCAT in the 502 and GPA in the 3.5 range.

No, most newer schools are at 500 or lower.

 

[863168]

But, what happens to people like me who have the capacity and drive to perform at the same level as people who are admitted to US schools, who go to foreign schools and graduate in 4 years and pass boards on their first attempt?

 

[GypsyHummus]

Not really. Arkansas and Incarnate word have their mcat averages at 502 and 504 respectively this year. Alabama told me their average last year was right around 502

The only school I know about who has mcat around the 500 is West Virginia, and they are looking for a certain type of applicant.

No, most newer schools are at 500 or lower.

 

[ortnakas]

A linked SMP or postbacc is your best bet.

I’ve met a few really smart IMG residents and attendings on rotations so they’re not universally awful like SDN might have you believe, but going to the Caribbean doesn’t put the odds in your favor.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I dont think anyone has an issue with IMG themselves, but with the business model of the Caribbean schools. 50% of those who apply get residency, and thats after 50% drop out. So you are looking at a chance of about 20% to match into a primary care field.

For every success story in the Caribbean, there are 3 or more failure stories. Everyone thinks they are going to be in the top 20%, even the 80% that didnt make it.

A linked SMP or postbacc is your best bet.

I’ve met a few really smart IMG residents and attendings on rotations so they’re not universally awful like SDN might have you believe, but going to the Caribbean doesn’t put the odds in your favor.

 

[GypsyHummus]

They do a post bacc/SMP affiliated with a school.

Nobody should consider the Caribbean. There are too many alternative paths in the US to justify a risk.

What if someone goes through a master's program, works hard, does decent on there to show a solid work ethic, and gets a decent MCAT to show potential for boards, like a 510, but has a sub 2.5 GPA. Then they could consider carribb

 

[Taskmaster]

Well, well, well, looks like a spoke a little too soon! Two days after creating this panic thread, I got me a DO interview invite!!!!!!!!!! My first real interview invite of the cycle!!!! I am elated.

 

[non-trad++]

Either you make it or you fail out. Probably about a 50-50 chance of either happening. So if you're willing to bet 300K + in debt for a coin flip than be my guest.

It still amazes me - after arguing with @Goro on the same misuse of statistics: applying whole-student-body (average) chances of success to that of an individual student!
As each individual student contributes a little to the average of the school, so does the school... contributing little to each individual student’s chances of success.

Since we are talking about Carib schools, it is the shear number of ‘less-prepared’ applicants/students that bring a particular ‘school/metric average’ down; however, the said-low average does NOT bring down any one particular student.

I always take the side of the underdog - the Carib med student, that is.

 

[Goro]

It still amazes me - after arguing with @Goro on the same misuse of statistics: applying whole-student-body (average) chances of success to that of an individual student!
As each individual student contributes a little to the average of the school, so does the school... contributing little to each individual student’s chances of success.

Since we are talking about Carib schools, it is the shear number of ‘less-prepared’ applicants/students that bring a particular ‘school/metric average’ down; however, the said-low average does NOT bring down any one particular student.

I always take the side of the underdog - the Carib med student, that is.

What part of "your odds are 50-50" don't you understand??

One of the problems is that 100% of the Carib students think that they're going to be in the winning pool.

 

[non-trad++]

They do a post bacc/SMP affiliated with a school.

Nobody should consider the Caribbean. There are too many alternative paths in the US to justify a risk.

You mean the risk of becoming a Practicing Physician here in the US?

Your advice, and that of others before you, may 1) help individual applicants and 2) improve the quality of the applicant pool. I am all for it unless you do something about a) the applicants that your advice ‘pushed’ aside (to make room for the repeats, correct?) and 2) the real US physician shortage.

And by ‘Your’ I mean you all.

 

[non-trad++]

What part of "your odds are 50-50" don't you understand??

One of the problems is that 100% of the Carib students think that they're going to be in the winning pool.

I do understand.
I am arguing [only] with the part "your odds are...".
It should be something like: "The school's odds are 50-50" (meaning half of its students will match)
And when addressing a particular student: "your odds are: I have no idea" (meaning since I don't know your background).

As always, I love your posts - especially the friendly ones.

 

[masnerj]

A linked SMP or postbacc is your best bet.

I’ve met a few really smart IMG residents and attendings on rotations so they’re not universally awful like SDN might have you believe, but going to the Caribbean doesn’t put the odds in your favor.

Isn't there a huge distinction between the Caribbean-going US premed-turned-IMG and the ultra-smart IMGs that are top of their class in European or Asian countries and end up moving to the US for better academic, research, and professional opportunities? Maybe the ones you saw were from the latter category and not the former? Unless I am misinterpreting what you meant...

 

[dpmd]

Isn't there a huge distinction between the Caribbean-going US premed-turned-IMG and the ultra-smart IMGs that are top of their class in European or Asian countries and end up moving to the US for better academic, research, and professional opportunities? Maybe the ones you saw were from the latter category and not the former? Unless I am misinterpreting what you meant...

Those are called FMGs and are a pretty separate discussion.