What if I'm just a normal dude?

  • Thread starter Thread starter deleted1199641
  • Start date Start date
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

deleted1199641

I guess read a lot of online personal statements and it seems to me that what is considered a "good" story is something out of my control. I'm a white middle class dude who grew up in a normal neighborhood, very traditional premed. Entered college knowing I wanted to go to medical school and sought out experiences to get me into medical school. No traumatic experiences, no dramatic life changing events.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You do not need to tell a heartrendering story--in fact, many attempts to do so come off as cringeworthy. The purpose of your personal statement is to demonstrate that you have (i) a strong desire to pursue medicine; (ii) the experiences necessary to understand what it means to be a medical student and a doctor (i.e., you know what you are getting into); and (iii) the traits and experiences necessary to be an asset to medical schools, and a skilled and humane doctor. If every sentence of your personal statement furthers these one or more of these goals, it will be a success.
 
Why do you want to serve the sick/injured as a physician? If that isn't the reason you are going into medicine, then why are you doing it? How have you tested the waters to see if this is the path you want in life (once you start, it is very hard to get off the merry-go-round and choose something different)? What do you expect to be very challenging as a medical student? as a licensed physician? What do you expect to be the rewards of such a career?

Good answers to those questions do not require growing up in poverty, living in a slum, or otherwise having a sad story to tell.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Why do you want to serve the sick/injured as a physician? If that isn't the reason you are going into medicine, then why are you doing it? How have you tested the waters to see if this is the path you want in life (once you start, it is very hard to get off the merry-go-round and choose something different)? What do you expect to be very challenging as a medical student? as a licensed physician? What do you expect to be the rewards of such a career?

Good answers to those questions do not require growing up in poverty, living in a slum, or otherwise having a sad story to tell.
I believe I have good answers to those questions. I guess I just feel like the process selects for the kids that fit the DEI criteria. Do you think that this is true?
 
No, they do not require this. But my point is the process of holistic admissions selects for kids that have. If I have a 512 MCAT and grew up normal and someone has a 512 that's black and grew up in poverty, they are getting into medical school over me. That is my point/question.
The internet makes it seem like 90% of applicants have the profile that you describe, but the label of URM exists because these applicants are, well, underrepresented. They don't come close to making up a majority of med school applicants or acceptances.

Some data to show why being URM isn't the advantage everyone makes it out to be: 2024 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data
I used A12 to find these numbers. If my calculations are incorrect, feel free to correct me.

Overall Asian acceptance rate: 39.9%
Overall White acceptance rate: 39.1%
Overall Black acceptance rate: 35.7%
Overall Hispanic acceptance rate: 40.7%
Overall Hawaiian / Pacific Islander acceptance rate: 34.1%
Overall American Indian / Alaskan Native acceptance rate: 43.8%
Overall acceptance rate: 38.0%

Holistic admissions may not view you the same as a Black, disadvantaged applicant, but medical schools have more than one seat to offer. For every one Black matriculant, there are eight White / Asian matriculants.

This comes back down to what you initially said - a lot of this comes down to things you can't control. Focus on what you can control and hope it works out. I know SEVERAL 'average' applicants that got in this cycle to good schools. If you can find a way to make your experiences and personality shine I'm sure you will be joining them this time next year.
 
I guess read a lot of online personal statements and it seems to me that what is considered a "good" story is something out of my control. I'm a white middle class dude who grew up in a normal neighborhood, very traditional premed. Entered college knowing I wanted to go to medical school and sought out experiences to get me into medical school. No traumatic experiences, no dramatic life changing events. It feels like I need to be poor or grow up in some slum to stand out.
Normal dudes/dudettes get into.med school all the time!

So just build a good application. For your extracurriculars, do what you love and love what you do.
 
The internet makes it seem like 90% of applicants have the profile that you describe, but the label of URM exists because these applicants are, well, underrepresented. They don't come close to making up a majority of med school applicants or acceptances.

Some data to show why being URM isn't the advantage everyone makes it out to be: 2024 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data
I used A12 to find these numbers. If my calculations are incorrect, feel free to correct me.

Overall Asian acceptance rate: 39.9%
Overall White acceptance rate: 39.1%
Overall Black acceptance rate: 35.7%
Overall Hispanic acceptance rate: 40.7%
Overall Hawaiian / Pacific Islander acceptance rate: 34.1%
Overall American Indian / Alaskan Native acceptance rate: 43.8%
Overall acceptance rate: 38.0%

Holistic admissions may not view you the same as a Black, disadvantaged applicant, but medical schools have more than one seat to offer. For every one Black matriculant, there are eight White / Asian matriculants.

This comes back down to what you initially said - a lot of this comes down to things you can't control. Focus on what you can control and hope it works out. I know SEVERAL 'average' applicants that got in this cycle to good schools. If you can find a way to make your experiences and personality shine I'm sure you will be joining them this time next year.
Acceptance rates are a poor measure of demographic advantage or disadvantage because they do not account for self-exclusion. The best measure is average MCAT score among matriculants by demographic.
 
The internet makes it seem like 90% of applicants have the profile that you describe, but the label of URM exists because these applicants are, well, underrepresented. They don't come close to making up a majority of med school applicants or acceptances.

Some data to show why being URM isn't the advantage everyone makes it out to be: 2024 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data
I used A12 to find these numbers. If my calculations are incorrect, feel free to correct me.

Overall Asian acceptance rate: 39.9%
Overall White acceptance rate: 39.1%
Overall Black acceptance rate: 35.7%
Overall Hispanic acceptance rate: 40.7%
Overall Hawaiian / Pacific Islander acceptance rate: 34.1%
Overall American Indian / Alaskan Native acceptance rate: 43.8%
Overall acceptance rate: 38.0%

Holistic admissions may not view you the same as a Black, disadvantaged applicant, but medical schools have more than one seat to offer. For every one Black matriculant, there are eight White / Asian matriculants.

This comes back down to what you initially said - a lot of this comes down to things you can't control. Focus on what you can control and hope it works out. I know SEVERAL 'average' applicants that got in this cycle to good schools. If you can find a way to make your experiences and personality shine I'm sure you will be joining them this time next year.
Yes, that's true. Thank you for taking time to give me those numbers. Perhaps I am just angry and paranoid. I applied to 15 schools with 4.0/515 had 1 interview resulting in a WL-->R. I will be applying again next cycle and will include DO schools which I did not do last time.
 
Acceptance rates are a poor measure of demographic advantage or disadvantage because they do not account for self-exclusion. The best measure is average MCAT score among matriculants by demographic.
A-18 on the AAMC website shows interesting data. URM applicants have an MCAT average <500 while ORM has an average of 508. Matriculant averages hover around 505 for URM and 513 for ORM (doing some rounding and estimation here).

It's difficult to tell what exactly this data entails since we don't have the full picture. I notice that the 8-point difference carries over between ORM / URM between applicants and matriculants, but that isn't really apples to apples since the right side of the curve is much harder to attain for MCAT scores. Thoughts?

Good point about the self-exclusion. I'm curious as to what this may look like in 10 years' time.
 
Everyone has a narrative; most applicants who are successful in the process have not endured a tragedy or suffering.

Composing a strong personal statement and medical school application requires introspection, time, and thought.

What inspires you? What are you motivated by? What are you most excited about on your path to medical school?

Medical schools appreciate "typical" applicants who demonstrate a long-standing commitment to medicine and they want diverse classes composed of people with different backgrounds.
 
Last edited:
I guess read a lot of online personal statements and it seems to me that what is considered a "good" story is something out of my control. I'm a white middle class dude who grew up in a normal neighborhood, very traditional premed. Entered college knowing I wanted to go to medical school and sought out experiences to get me into medical school. No traumatic experiences, no dramatic life changing events. It feels like I need to be poor or grow up in some slum to stand out.
Starting from the beginning and acknowledging all replies.

#1: Why do you want to be a physician or a healthcare professional.
#2: How can you connect with and show empathy with those individuals who unfortunately have had traumatic experiences or grew up poor or unprivileged?

Any applicant -- including those in "the majority" -- must answer these questions. That's the assignment. Stop reading the internet for your PS inspiration, but realize you need to work with many of your peers who take different journeys to a professional career... including a lot of adverse weather.

 
The MCAT was engineered so that 125 was average for each section and a total score of 500 was sufficient for success in medical school. However, given the plethora of applicants with scores of 500 or more, it becomes difficult to break through the crowd with a score that, on its face, is indicative of the fund of knowledge (and work ethic) needed to succeed in medical school pre-clinical curriculum. If hair to one's shoulders were a pre-requisite for med school admission, would the best students have hair to the mid-back? the waist? Longer? As long as USNews uses MCAT in its formula, there will be those who will insist that higher is better even though there is little difference between a 519 and a 521.
 
It is not competition from URM or underprivileged applicants that is holding you back. Your GPA and MCAT score are obviously very good. The fact that you got only 1 interview suggests there is a problem with your application. It could be a school list that was too top-heavy or a poor fit with your activities and interests. It could be insufficient hours of clinical exposure or service. It could be weak writing. It could be lukewarm LOR. Who reviewed your application before you submitted it? What did your school’s premed advisor say?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It is not competition from URM or underprivileged applicants that is holding you back. Your GPA and MCAT score are obviously very good. The fact that you got only 1 interview suggests there is a problem with your application. It could be a school list that was too top-heavy or a poor fit with your activities and interests. It could be insufficient hours of clinical exposure or service. It could be weak writing. It could be lukewarm LOR. Who reviewed your application before you submitted it? What did your school’s premed advisor say?
There's another possible problem. The applicant may come from a state with a large population without a publicly owned medical school or with a publicly owned medical school that has few seats reserved for instate students.
 
There's another possible problem. The applicant may come from a state with a large population without a publicly owned medical school or with a publicly owned medical school that has few seats reserved for instate students.
There are dozens of private schools that do not have geographic preferences. They may not be cheap but they are abundant. Of the 50 states, the 40 largest, as best I can tell, all have state operated medical schools. Some of the largest States have more than one. That's a flimsy excuse for not getting an offer of admission.
 
It is not competition from URM or underprivileged applicants that is holding you back. Your GPA and MCAT score are obviously very good. The fact that you got only 1 interview suggests there is a problem with your application. It could be a school list that was too top-heavy or a poor fit with your activities and interests. It could be insufficient hours of clinical exposure or service. It could be weak writing. It could be lukewarm LOR. Who reviewed your application before you submitted it? What did your school’s premed advisor say?
I am thinking it's a combination of school list and writing tbh. My premed advisor told me that he thought everything looked good. He told me "I'll pay you $5 if you don't get accepted" and he read my entire application. I applied to my instate school public school and that was where my sole interview was. I applied to a lot of out of state schools public schools such as ohio state, nebraska, and Kansas, which are pretty much just donations to those programs. I agree it's not competition from URM because at the end of the day, there aren't that many URM applicants compared to ORM. It just feels like if I was URM, I'd be in medical school right now. I received feedback from a school that I applied to, and they said, "no evidence of overcoming personal adversity." I mean I talked about my uncle passing away in my secondary and that's the feedback I get. It makes me think they are looking for URM.
 
There are dozens of private schools that do not have geographic preferences. They may not be cheap but they are abundant. Of the 50 states, the 40 largest, as best I can tell, all have state operated medical schools. Some of the largest States have more than one. That's a flimsy excuse for not getting an offer of admission.

Once again, let's look at the published data. See Table A-1. Last year and virtually every year, approximately 60% of all MD medical students matriculate at a school in their state of residence. At state owned medical schools this is either a product of state law or the politics of state budgeting. At some private schools the in state preference is a reflection of fund raising, undergraduate college ties and connections. Look at the in state percentage at these four private schools: Miami - 64.7% in state; Mercer - 100% in state; Geisinger Commonwealth - 67.8% in state; and the Medical College of Wisconsin - 50% in state. As anyone can see, when it comes to in state preference not every private school behaves like Dartmouth, Brown and Creighton.

The most compelling evidence of the advantage of residing in some states as opposed to others, with respect to medical school admissions, can be found in A-20. You will see that the average total MCAT score among matriculants from: 1) Massachusetts was 515 (90th percentile); Connecticut was 513.8 (88th percentile); 3) New Mexico was 506.1 (66th percentile); and 4) Wyoming was 506.2 (66th percentile) thanks to WWAMI.

Allow me to repeat myself:
 
Last edited:
Where students choose to apply and matriculate is very much a product of where they live, where they have a social support network and within a culture where they are comfortable. It would be interesting to see how MCAT scores by state correlate with state's k-12 spending. I think there might be a correlation there, too.
 
I am thinking it's a combination of school list and writing tbh. My premed advisor told me that he thought everything looked good. He told me "I'll pay you $5 if you don't get accepted" and he read my entire application. I applied to my instate school public school and that was where my sole interview was. I applied to a lot of out of state schools public schools such as ohio state, nebraska, and Kansas, which are pretty much just donations to those programs. I agree it's not competition from URM because at the end of the day, there aren't that many URM applicants compared to ORM. It just feels like if I was URM, I'd be in medical school right now. I received feedback from a school that I applied to, and they said, "no evidence of overcoming personal adversity." I mean I talked about my uncle passing away in my secondary and that's the feedback I get. It makes me think they are looking for URM.
You don’t have to be URM to experience hardship or loss.
 
I believe I have good answers to those questions. I guess I just feel like the process selects for the kids that fit the DEI criteria. Do you think that this is true?
There's a reason why the term ORM is used.

The majority of a medical school students are either Caucasian or East/South Asian.

You have great stats, but something is lacking in your app, which caused the drought of IIs.
 
I’m a pretty normal applicant without anything that stands out too much, other than perhaps many clinical hours from my gap years and I guess decent (but WILDLY unbalanced) MCAT. My cycle was pretty successful. No X-factor, no cool awards, no top university, no major research projects, no storied to make adcoms cry. I believe I was successful due to my well rounded application and clear motivations for medicine. I’m sure adcoms get tired of seeing fluffy personal statements and sad stories anyways.
 
MOST med school applicants are "just normal" dudes and dudettes without any X-factor. A well rounded application with clinical exposure and volunteering, good grades and test scores, positive LOR, and thoughtful essays are what we look for.
 
Imagine getting 100 hours of volunteering over 4 years at a food bank and calling yourself Mother Teresa because you chucked some cans at people—and then blaming those very same people for taking your seat at medical school. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Those people you said you were "caring" for (although I am now suspicious as to how much you truly care) are probably still going to the food bank, still collecting cans from people that they know don't think they have the right to exist. These people are not matriculating to medical schools in high numbers.

Statistically, most matriculants overwhelmingly come from backgrounds like yours. So, why did you choose to attack a population that composes <20% of your competition? Wouldn't your biggest gains, objectively, be figuring out how you can compete against people who have applications similar to yours and beat you on merit?

Or, is this all a big projection to insist that your failure should have belonged to people you see as beneath you? People it is clear you believe are less deserving to even aspire to become physicians? I'll put my money where my mouth is: look up my WAMC. I'd love to chat about how you're obviously more qualified and deserving. I'd love to tell you about how my background earned me the luxury of getting to decide what Walmart parking lot I was going to sleep in. How I had to charge power banks to even be able to keep my laptop running on public WiFi so I could study. Oh, and working several jobs at the same time. I'm certainly the type of person you are referencing in your post...and I'm willing to engage with you, not in ad hominem, but substantively.

This is all very revealing and, to me, strongly indicates the very obvious reason you were not admitted.
 
Imagine getting 100 hours of volunteering over 4 years at a food bank and calling yourself Mother Teresa because you chucked some cans at people—and then blaming those very same people for taking your seat at medical school. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Those people you said you were "caring" for (although I am now suspicious as to how much you truly care) are probably still going to the food bank, still collecting cans from people that they know don't think they have the right to exist. These people are not matriculating to medical schools in high numbers.

Statistically, most matriculants overwhelmingly come from backgrounds like yours. So, why did you choose to attack a population that composes <20% of your competition? Wouldn't your biggest gains, objectively, be figuring out how you can compete against people who have applications similar to yours and beat you on merit?

Or, is this all a big projection to insist that your failure should have belonged to people you see as beneath you? People it is clear you believe are less deserving to even aspire to become physicians? I'll put my money where my mouth is: look up my WAMC. I'd love to chat about how you're obviously more qualified and deserving. I'd love to tell you about how my background earned me the luxury of getting to decide what Walmart parking lot I was going to sleep in. How I had to charge power banks to even be able to keep my laptop running on public WiFi so I could study. Oh, and working several jobs at the same time. I'm certainly the type of person you are referencing in your post...and I'm willing to engage with you, not in ad hominem, but substantively.

This is all very revealing and, to me, strongly indicates the very obvious reason you were not admitted.
Firstly, I apologize. I do believe my frustrations weren't communicated in the most charitable way and for that, I am sorry. I'm sorry you went through those things and truly, I hope you never have to go through them again.

You seem to be making a lot of hasty generalizations about my post. I never claimed to be "Mother Teresa" and I'm not "attacking" URM populations. Clearly, you're upset and that's ok, but that does not seem like an appropriate way to respond.

You make a fair point about most matriculants coming from a background like mine. However, my point is that medical schools have moved away from MCAT and GPA and place more weight on people's backgrounds and life stories. If you have a normal story and haven't truly had to overcome certain life circumstances, you don't stand out. That's my point. If you took my entire application and changed my race, I'd be accepted. DEI admissions are race-based admissions. DEI is truly reverse discrimination. It's directly selecting some people over others because of race. Even though it's a small number, is it any less evil and wrong?

For example, why does NYU have a yes or no question on their secondary asking if you are a member of the LGBTQ+ community? Why should that matter at all? If I clicked yes, would I have a better chance at acceptance?
 
medical schools have moved away from MCAT and GPA and place more weight on people's backgrounds and life stories
This is untrue, or at least overstated. Undoubtedly having an interesting life story helps, but GPA/MCAT is king. Schools aren’t going to accept someone who will be at risk of not handling the academic rigor of medical school just because they like their story.

As others have said, you didn’t pay enough attention to the nonclinical volunteering checkbox. I don’t think this would have changed based on race or LGBTQ status or any other DEI inclusion criteria, as it’s a pretty basic requirement across the board that isn’t waived just because you’re a member of one group or another—I think a lack of nonclinical volunteering on an otherwise strong app leading to rejection is such a common downfall that @Med Ed calls it “the fatal flaw” or something like that. Whether having an arbitrary number of hours helping the less fortunate really proves you’ll be good at helping patients is a reasonable question, but ultimately complaining about the rules of the game is not going to help you achieve your goals. Luckily, it is also a very easy flaw to rectify as long as you prioritize doing so.
 
This is untrue, or at least overstated. Undoubtedly having an interesting life story helps, but GPA/MCAT is king. Schools aren’t going to accept someone who will be at risk of not handling the academic rigor of medical school just because they like their story.

As others have said, you didn’t pay enough attention to the nonclinical volunteering checkbox. Whether having an arbitrary number of hours helping the less fortunate really proves you’ll be good at helping patients is a reasonable question, but ultimately complaining about the rules of the game is not going to help you achieve your goals.
Does GPA and MCAT hold more weight now than it has in the past? That's my point. My point is the GPA/MCAT hold less weight than in the past.

I'm just gonna go DO and live a happy life bro. I don't even care anymore. This will be my last cycle, acceptance or not.
 
OP has posted their WAMC below:

 
Firstly, I apologize. I do believe my frustrations weren't communicated in the most charitable way and for that, I am sorry. I'm sorry you went through those things and truly, I hope you never have to go through them again.

You seem to be making a lot of hasty generalizations about my post. I never claimed to be "Mother Teresa" and I'm not "attacking" URM populations. Clearly, you're upset and that's ok, but that does not seem like an appropriate way to respond.

You make a fair point about most matriculants coming from a background like mine. However, my point is that medical schools have moved away from MCAT and GPA and place more weight on people's backgrounds and life stories. If you have a normal story and haven't truly had to overcome certain life circumstances, you don't stand out. That's my point. If you took my entire application and changed my race, I'd be accepted. DEI admissions are race-based admissions. DEI is truly reverse discrimination. It's directly selecting some people over others because of race. Even though it's a small number, is it any less evil and wrong?

For example, why does NYU have a yes or no question on their secondary asking if you are a member of the LGBTQ+ community? Why should that matter at all? If I clicked yes, would I have a better chance at acceptance?

Thank you for your apology. I agree, your frustrations were not communicated in a charitable way, and I fundamentally disagree with your insistence that I have mischaracterized them. My response directly addresses your point that:

No traumatic experiences, no dramatic life changing events. It feels like I need to be poor or grow up in some slum to stand out.

...which does two things:

1. It demonstrates that you think true adversity is ornamental. That material scarcity isn't real. In so doing, you're dehumanizing a growing (especially now) group of human beings that you claim to want to serve as a physician. Trust me, the patients on Grey's Anatomy are actors, too. When LizzyM says you need to be close enough to smell them, it's not because she thinks they always smell good. I don't think insulting the future recipients of your labor is a great way to build a patient census, is all.

2. It shows that you think experiencing those circumstances—surviving them—does not provide hard-earned skills that medical schools increasingly claim to value. It also aligns with their missions to produce physician workforces that reflect the populations they exist to serve. Because increasingly, it's getting harder and harder to expect that totally ordinary normal guys like you are going to be willing to move to the kinds of desperate and overwhelmed communities and serve the people you are unfairly resentful toward for "hindering" your future personally by just existing. See point 1.

With regard to the dwindling relevance of metrics, I really don't know what you are talking about, and it doesn't seem like you have looked through the data as others have insisted you do countless times. Table A-23 shows that applicants with GPAs >3.79 and MCAT >517 have an 83.6% chance of being admitted. That is not trivial against the average 44.7% chance across all applicants. In fact, it doubles your chances, almost.

So, to have every advantage in life and then still not be admitted, one can only reasonably assume you had to have really defied the odds in a very unseemly way, objectively. I pointed to one of the reasons, objectively. That you didn't like my tone is your choice. I didn't like yours and responded to you thoughtfully in good faith, and I expect the same from you.
 
Thank you for your apology. I agree, your frustrations were not communicated in a charitable way, and I fundamentally disagree with your insistence that I have mischaracterized them. My response directly addresses your point that:

...which does two things:

1. It demonstrates that you think true adversity is ornamental. That material scarcity isn't real. In so doing, you're dehumanizing a growing (especially now) group of human beings that you claim to want to serve as a physician. Trust me, the patients on Grey's Anatomy are actors, too. When LizzyM says you need to be close enough to smell them, it's not because she thinks they always smell good. I don't think insulting the future recipients of your labor is a great way to build a patient census, is all.

2. It shows that you think experiencing those circumstances—surviving them—does not provide hard-earned skills that medical schools increasingly claim to value. It also aligns with their missions to produce physician workforces that reflect the populations they exist to serve. Because increasingly, it's getting harder and harder to expect that totally ordinary normal guys like you are going to be willing to move to the kinds of desperate and overwhelmed communities and serve the people you are unfairly resentful toward for "hindering" your future personally by just existing. See point 1.

With regard to the dwindling relevance of metrics, I really don't know what you are talking about, and it doesn't seem like you have looked through the data as others have insisted you do countless times. Table A-23 shows that applicants with GPAs >3.79 and MCAT >517 have an 83.6% chance of being admitted. That is not trivial against the average 44.7% chance across all applicants. In fact, it doubles your chances, almost.

So, to have every advantage in life and then still not be admitted, one can only reasonably assume you had to have really defied the odds in a very unseemly way, objectively. I pointed to one of the reasons, objectively. That you didn't like my tone is your choice. I didn't like yours and responded to you thoughtfully in good faith, and I expect the same from you.
My frustration isn’t with people who’ve overcome hardship or adversity. In fact, I admire that deeply, and I believe many of those individuals bring qualities to medicine that can't be taught in a classroom. What I’ve struggled with is a sense that the system sometimes sends the message that lived hardship is the only kind of valuable experience—and that those who come from more stable or "ordinary" backgrounds are automatically less worthy, or have to work twice as hard to be seen.

You mentioned that my words seemed to suggest adversity is ornamental or trivial. I believe that is a straw man. What I meant to express is that it sometimes feels like you need to have an extraordinary life story just to get in the door, and if your path has been steady and structured, you’re somehow less compelling—regardless of your competence, compassion, or drive to serve.

I also want to push gently on the idea that questioning aspects of DEI means I’m “unfairly resentful” or attacking URM populations. That’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to understand where the line is between fairness and overcorrection, between acknowledging historical and systemic wrongs and creating new forms of exclusion in the name of justice. Maybe you think that’s a flawed premise, and I’m open to hearing that, but I do think it’s a question worth asking.

You’re right that data still shows strong MCAT/GPA performance correlates with admission, and I acknowledge that. But the growing emphasis on qualitative factors can make the process feel unpredictable, especially when you don’t come from a background that gives you access to the kind of narrative that stands out.
 
Does GPA and MCAT hold more weight now than it has in the past? That's my point. My point is the GPA/MCAT hold less weight than in the past.

I'm just gonna go DO and live a happy life bro. I don't even care anymore. This will be my last cycle, acceptance or not.
I don’t think it carries any more or less weight. There has been a minimum number of EC hours since back when I applied, which was a good while back, and while DEI is a more recent term affirmative action also existed then

But if you really just can’t here to have your biases confirmed that your experience is unfair, then I suppose it doesn’t matter what I say.
 
My frustration isn’t with people who’ve overcome hardship or adversity. In fact, I admire that deeply, and I believe many of those individuals bring qualities to medicine that can't be taught in a classroom. What I’ve struggled with is a sense that the system sometimes sends the message that lived hardship is the only kind of valuable experience—and that those who come from more stable or "ordinary" backgrounds are automatically less worthy, or have to work twice as hard to be seen.

You mentioned that my words seemed to suggest adversity is ornamental or trivial. I believe that is a straw man. What I meant to express is that it sometimes feels like you need to have an extraordinary life story just to get in the door, and if your path has been steady and structured, you’re somehow less compelling—regardless of your competence, compassion, or drive to serve.

I also want to push gently on the idea that questioning aspects of DEI means I’m “unfairly resentful” or attacking URM populations. That’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to understand where the line is between fairness and overcorrection, between acknowledging historical and systemic wrongs and creating new forms of exclusion in the name of justice. Maybe you think that’s a flawed premise, and I’m open to hearing that, but I do think it’s a question worth asking.

You’re right that data still shows strong MCAT/GPA performance correlates with admission, and I acknowledge that. But the growing emphasis on qualitative factors can make the process feel unpredictable, especially when you don’t come from a background that gives you access to the kind of narrative that stands out.

Actually, no, the previously optional "Disadvantaged" essay has now been rebranded on AMCAS to "Other Impactful Experiences," which I disagreed with on similar grounds but nonetheless shows that even you, the Platonic Ideal of medical school applicants, likely have at least a story of relevance or impact. Hint for the class: the admissions professionals above have already said the story doesn't even have to be good.

But don't worry, because due to the "poor" who have "grow[n] up in some slum," medical schools increasingly employ holistic admissions in an effort not to throw out applications on the basis of just one component, which means those 1325 characters likely weren't the nail on the coffin. It means, holistically, you fell into that teeny tiny ~20% population that are unable to secure admission with your stats.

Oh, to be that 20% must sting. It means your peers, none smarter or more accomplished than you, instead look down on you. They wonder how you didn't make it, even though supposedly you did everything right. Do you think that's fair? Because you're basically dunking on URM (under the guise of DEI which you appear unaware to realize gesture to the same idea) applicants in precisely the same way.

What I'm saying is that when life itself tells you that you have an >80% chance at something, and you complain about the odds, maybe the problem is you. Doubly so if you do it while also punching down on people who have the least chance. There was something clearly materially wrong in your application, and you're displacing your anger for being insufficient on a population that is popularly scapegoated. It's really hard for everyone to watch you grandstand about your church morals in your WAMC while also dramatically rocking your fist in the wind, cursing those damn Hispanics because you didn't get in. It's malicious, on its face but even more so insidiously. I point it out because it's instructive at a broader point I'm making.

To add insult to injury is your entitlement over essentially the same group—URM—which you hide behind terms like "qualitative factors" and "stand-out narrative" because again, you are clearly showing that belonging to those groups is ornamental, and then based on that inferior frame, assess it as undeservingly meritorious. Believe me, it's not even a consolation prize. 0/10 would not recommend poverty to anyone. I would absolutely "Freaky Friday" body-switch with you in a heartbeat and be just an ordinary guy.

Even now, as I apply, I find myself just trying to be more like you, trying to make less waves in a way that doesn't erase me. But I can't. Because my demographics are often the lens I'm reduced to, not just as an applicant, but as a person. You feel like you can't stand out in a sea of people who are just like you; I feel like every word I say is scrutinized because everyone treats me like a garbage pail for their unresolved feelings about race and social culture more broadly. I was an undergrad in state government writing healthcare legislation while doing research at NASA but people are going to look at my demographics and think.....nope! Talk about unfair! My rights not to be discriminated on the basis of being a gay man are currently being contested in public media; as is my citizenship as the American-born child of legally naturalized immigrants. So, under those stakes it's really difficult for me to feel sorry for you because you don't have other adversities with which to position yourself heroically in tension with—as if it's a roleplay.

But the reality is, hardboiledeggs, that this isn't a contest for how normal or typical someone is. You can eat hard-boiled eggs on their own and maybe be satisfied. The way I see it, some people (read: schools) are just looking with a delicious deviled egg, topped with bacon and a sliver of cornichon, dusted with smoked paprika and flaky salt. Can't blame them. There are so many eggs you can take to the gullet before you're tired of eating eggs.

If you were one of the ~20% in your position that thought just being an egg was all it took, that was a judgment problem. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone else, and it should be eye-opening to you that your mind went to blaming others. Even more so with the very intellectually effortless scapegoat you chose. Even if this all gets taken down, I respect you enough to mirror to you what you're putting out there.
 
Med schools still carry out affirmative action just under a different name. Why did they add a disadvantaged/other impactful experiences section?
Not sure what more you would like us to say. You only responded to the part of my post commenting on how DEI isn’t anything new, and ignored the alternative explanation for your lack of success which was a subpar effort towards volunteering. Again, you can reasonably argue it is a meaningless and arbitrary checkbox, but i would encourage you to recognize this as a clear gap in your application and improve rather than focusing on things you can’t change.
 
Actually, no, the previously optional "Disadvantaged" essay has now been rebranded on AMCAS to "Other Impactful Experiences," which I disagreed with on similar grounds but nonetheless shows that even you, the Platonic Ideal of medical school applicants, likely have at least a story of relevance or impact. Hint for the class: the admissions professionals above have already said the story doesn't even have to be good.

But don't worry, because due to the "poor" who have "grow[n] up in some slum," medical schools increasingly employ holistic admissions in an effort not to throw out applications on the basis of just one component, which means those 1325 characters likely weren't the nail on the coffin. It means, holistically, you fell into that teeny tiny ~20% population that are unable to secure admission with your stats.

Oh, to be that 20% must sting. It means your peers, none smarter or more accomplished than you, instead look down on you. They wonder how you didn't make it, even though supposedly you did everything right. Do you think that's fair? Because you're basically dunking on URM (under the guise of DEI which you appear unaware to realize gesture to the same idea) applicants in precisely the same way.

What I'm saying is that when life itself tells you that you have an >80% chance at something, and you complain about the odds, maybe the problem is you. Doubly so if you do it while also punching down on people who have the least chance. There was something clearly materially wrong in your application, and you're displacing your anger for being insufficient on a population that is popularly scapegoated. It's really hard for everyone to watch you grandstand about your church morals in your WAMC while also dramatically rocking your fist in the wind, cursing those damn Hispanics because you didn't get in. It's malicious, on its face but even more so insidiously. I point it out because it's instructive at a broader point I'm making.

To add insult to injury is your entitlement over essentially the same group—URM—which you hide behind terms like "qualitative factors" and "stand-out narrative" because again, you are clearly showing that belonging to those groups is ornamental, and then based on that inferior frame, assess it as undeservingly meritorious. Believe me, it's not even a consolation prize. 0/10 would not recommend poverty to anyone. I would absolutely "Freaky Friday" body-switch with you in a heartbeat and be just an ordinary guy.

Even now, as I apply, I find myself just trying to be more like you, trying to make less waves in a way that doesn't erase me. But I can't. Because my demographics are often the lens I'm reduced to, not just as an applicant, but as a person. You feel like you can't stand out in a sea of people who are just like you; I feel like every word I say is scrutinized because everyone treats me like a garbage pail for their unresolved feelings about race and social culture more broadly. I was an undergrad in state government writing healthcare legislation while doing research at NASA but people are going to look at my demographics and think.....nope! Talk about unfair! My rights not to be discriminated on the basis of being a gay man are currently being contested in public media; as is my citizenship as the American-born child of legally naturalized immigrants. So, under those stakes it's really difficult for me to feel sorry for you because you don't have other adversities with which to position yourself heroically in tension with—as if it's a roleplay.

But the reality is, hardboiledeggs, that this isn't a contest for how normal or typical someone is. You can eat hard-boiled eggs on their own and maybe be satisfied. The way I see it, some people (read: schools) are just looking with a delicious deviled egg, topped with bacon and a sliver of cornichon, dusted with smoked paprika and flaky salt. Can't blame them. There are so many eggs you can take to the gullet before you're tired of eating eggs.

If you were one of the ~20% in your position that thought just being an egg was all it took, that was a judgment problem. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone else, and it should be eye-opening to you that your mind went to blaming others. Even more so with the very intellectually effortless scapegoat you chose. Even if this all gets taken down, I respect you enough to mirror to you what you're putting out there.
I need you to answer one question: if I was URM would I have a better chance of acceptance?
 
I need you to answer one question: if I was URM would I have a better chance of acceptance?

Yes, because the system approximates an aspiration toward meritocracy and recognizes that certain groups would have had to overcome significant, arbitrary, and ultimately cruel obstacles to even apply to medical school. Every one of those 20% URM students that matriculate are the 1% of people in their communities who were actually able to overcome a constellation of life-ruining crises and overcome harshly inadequate circumstances in order to rise to the occasion of composing a polished application to medical school. That you take your advantages for granted, or like you're comparing apples to apples, is the point.

Next, pull out the eugenics research—tell us all how you think no, it's just that SCIENTIFICALLY you're more meritorious. It really is riveting discourse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top