What if the MCAT was pass/fail?

[plumazul]

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Hi, why don't you join us public school commoners back on planet Earth.

I went to a public high school(almost 65% URM). I was fortunate to live in the state with the number 1 public school system in the nation. 🙂 But if my state can do it, any state with the will, can also.

 

[mimelim]

What replaced it? To just "get rid" of such a program without a viable successor is IMO a giant step backwards.

We had a viable alternative. It is called teaching Genetics, Law, Physics, etc. at a level comparable to most undergraduate courses without being hamstringed by a shortsighted and poorly constructed curriculum that focuses around teaching toward a test. It was very clear in undergrad that students who took APs may have had a basic introduction to certain topics, but were woefully unprepared for difficult coursework. 90% of which could be directly linked to the fact that they were learning so they could get a 5 on a test, not learning to actually learn something. Virtually all of my science classes in high school were taught by PhDs. It was pretty obvious that the AP curriculum might be a decent starting point, but for actually teaching students was extremely limited.

 

[Narmerguy]

I'm torn on this...on one hand, my (public) high school had a lot of AP courses and was very successful at teaching them. I don't think it's a ridiculous goal; I certainly think it's possible to set up a good AP program without Ph.d teachers or anything of the sort. Even now, 6yrs later, I am rocking MCAT chem questions solely due to AP chem from high school. I'm not really sure what I would have learned in HS if it hadn't been for AP courses; by the time I graduated, the only non-AP I was taking was music. So, no, I don't really want to get rid of them.

On the other hand, when does it stop? APs used to be the extra mile...now they're expected at top schools, and there are people advocating for them to be the normal highschool requirement. What happens in 5yrs? 10? At what point do we stop cramming more and more low-detail, high-volume information into highschool? At what point does it stop being beneficial? I don't regret any of the classes I took, but I worry that at some point there is a ceiling on what can be designated "highschool level". I also worry that if we dictate that ceiling based on the most overachieving students, we'll end up alienating or discrediting the average student.

I'm not saying we should scrap it (though I'm not against that either). I'm saying we need to look at it and ask whether a necessary proportion of schools are able to deliver on the supposed "education" that these students get when they take these courses. I would rather students take these courses for real in college (or early in high school) then just get a poor understanding of it and then go off to college with terrible fundamentals. The fundamental courses, though everyone likes to crap on them, are the most important. If your understanding of basic chemistry is poor, you have no shot at thermo or quantum or organic. If your understanding of basic calculus is poor, you won't make it far in advanced physics or vector calculus. In our haste to cram everything in as early as possible, we should not weaken our fundamental understanding of these concepts as they are the foundation upon which our entire college education will be built. It's better to take the time to get it right the first time.

Your second point is a very good one, and I agree. There comes a point where we create an education system of the "haves" and the "havenots" and we effectively separate students from an earlier and earlier age in what they can achieve in life. Will we progress to a system where you basically have to be taking AP classes your freshman year in order to have a chance at majoring in physics or biology? Or perhaps students will have to spend more money and take longer in school to finish their course requirements because most students already have a bunch of "college credit" when they enter? We need to think not about the superstars but about the bulk of our students, especially those that are the most vulnerable to these sorts of changes. I say this as someone who has been to public and private high schools, took multiple AP classes, and entered college with 30+ credits as a result.

I went to a public high school(almost 65% URM). I was fortunate to live in the state with the number 1 public school system in the nation. 🙂 But if my state can do it, any state with the will, can also.

I think the state of our current education system should be evidence enough that the AP-level students are the least of our worries. We can't even teach the basics very well.

I went to a private high school for the majority of high school and though my middle/honors classes were taught better, AP, while good, was nothing like college level preparation. I actually chose to retake chemistry because though I somehow got a 4 on the exam, I would have gotten destroyed had I tried to take college chemistry with that preparation alone. It turns out, once I took the college class, I'm actually quite good at chemistry and it became my best subject. I couldn't believe that I had supposedly learned enough to justify credit for two introductory chemistry classes with that single 4...that test is no where near the same.

 

[mehc012]

Also, I am mad jealous of those of you who actually got credit for your APs...by the time I was going to college, it seemed that most of the competitive schools expected APs, but gave no credit for them. What a waste of 30-something straight-A credits!

 

[Geebeejay]

I'm sorry your school let you down but you cannot indict "the system" because of your schools poor implementation. I believe the AP exams should be made much more difficult in order to identify the underachieving schools. My high school used board certified teachers (many with PhDs) for the AP classes and the quality was as good or better then most universities. My AP classes resulted in 55 credits which allowed me to start college taking college level courses instead of glorified high school level classes and to deepen my knowledge in my major by taking grad courses for ug credit and broaden by knowledge by taking upper level classes in associated sciences. Intro chem, calc, physics, bio, and whatever intro classes are being added for 2015 are high school classes. Eventually everyone should have the opportunity to take them in high school. There could be real cost advantages to doing all of these changes. (something many debt laden students will appreciate)

😕 This is very far from the status quo. That's great that you went to a phenomenal public school with 65% URMs or whatever (how is that relevant?), and I'm sure those schools exist, but for the vast majority of other public schools who don't have teachers with Ph.Ds who are teaching to the test and trying to pass that off as college-level education, students are coming out with what I consider to be an inferior education compared to someone who just took the college-level class. I certainly wish I was aware that even though I got 5s on all the tests, I shouldn't expect to know enough material to skip right into Calc 3 or advanced Bio classes without unnecessary struggles of getting up to speed to a real college-level course..

I guess I ended up doing fine in undergrad so it's not a big deal for me, but I think the AP system is thoroughly and irreparably flawed.

 

[pre med 2014]

Alone, the MCAT, your GPA, your ECs, they don't really show much about you.

I'm sure there are tons of people with good MCAT scores but bad GPAs, good ECs but can't take a test to save their life.

All together...the physician you want is someone that can perform under pressure, but still has a human side.

Yes, to get through studying for the MCAT is tough, but to show your commitment to others through keeping with ECs, all the while performing well in school and excelling on standardized tests...well, together, maybe those people might be the ones you want.

If you throw out one piece of the puzzle, the pressure to excel in the others will go up. If we only look at ECs, you're going to be seeing a lot more sociopaths in medicine.

But it is more difficult, IMO, for someone to game GPA, MCAT, and ECs. The point is you're figuring out who wants it the most, who has the determination and the skills to make it. Straight up ECs = sociopath ass kissing fest, Straight up academics = Dr. Asperger.

The force requires balance.

That sounds pretty random. Why would lesser academic performance equate with being a sociopath?