What if you've been told you're ranked to match...

[g34343]

I was told by the PD at my first choice residency program that I have been ranked to match. This conversation occurred in an after-interview follow up a couple weeks after my interview, and ended with the PD saying "we're excited to have your joining our program." I am wondering what others think about this.

Now I know that many will have horror stories about friends who were told they were "ranked very highly" or told during the interview "I'm sure you'll be ranked to match", but does anyone have examples of someone being told something like this after the interview and having it not happen?

To those who will reply "nothing is a guarantee, make sure you protect yourself," I fully intend to. I have interviewed at 8 other programs and intend to rank every one of them. I'm just looking for any input or experiences people have had. Thank you.

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[gutonc]

I was told by the PD at my first choice residency program that I have been ranked to match. This conversation occurred in an after-interview follow up a couple weeks after my interview, and ended with the PD saying "we're excited to have your joining our program." I am wondering what others think about this.

Now I know that many will have horror stories about friends who were told they were "ranked very highly" or told during the interview "I'm sure you'll be ranked to match", but does anyone have examples of someone being told something like this after the interview and having it not happen?

To those who will reply "nothing is a guarantee, make sure you protect yourself," I fully intend to. I have interviewed at 8 other programs and intend to rank every one of them. I'm just looking for any input or experiences people have had. Thank you.

If it's your #1 program, you will rank it #1 regardless of what they say.

There are 2 options here...you're ranked to match and if you rank them #1, you'll show up there sometime in June...or...the PD is a twizzledick (my new favorite insult, taught to me by a recovering heroin addict w/ TBI last week) and is lying to you and ranked you at the bottom of his/her list. In either case, there's nothing you can do about it and you should just make your list and hope for the best.

If you're going for one of the more humane/less competitive specialties (anything w/o surgery or radi**** in the name), it's a reasonably safe to assume that the former is the case but don't rank only that program. If you're talking about neurosurgery or PRS, you should probably apply to a few backup FM programs really quickly.

 

[Winged Scapula]

There's also the possibility that they underestimate their list.

For example, program A traditionally goes down to student number 20 on their ROL to fill all 5 of their categorical positions. They rank you at number 19 so you are "ranked to match". However, they underestimate the number of people who will rank them highly and they only go down to number 15 on their list to fill all 5 positions...therefore, you do not match there.

 

[gutonc]

There's also the possibility that they underestimate their list.

For example, program A traditionally goes down to student number 20 on their ROL to fill all 5 of their categorical positions. They rank you at number 19 so you are "ranked to match". However, they underestimate the number of people who will rank them highly and they only go down to number 15 on their list to fill all 5 positions...therefore, you do not match there.

True. I forgot about that one. I think that if you're going to use the "ranked to match" phrase, you should mean, "I have X spots and you are ranked no lower than X on my list." Otherwise it's misleading and unfair. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen (it did to a classmate of mine) but it's not cool.

 

[Doowai]

True. I forgot about that one. I think that if you're going to use the "ranked to match" phrase, you should mean, "I have X spots and you are ranked no lower than X on my list." Otherwise it's misleading and unfair. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen (it did to a classmate of mine) but it's not cool.

Interesting,that is what I would assume. One PD called me and told me I am in his top 6 (they have six positions), and then sent me an email telling me my position had not changed. but I would not rank them #1, so my fear is while the computer was trying to put me in my first choice it would fill all their slots by perhaps going to #7 in their list in the same time - its such a gamble and I am not 100% certain the computer can accurately perform the algorhythm for 22,000 people with 100% accuracy.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Interesting,that is what I would assume. One PD called me and told me I am in his top 6 (they have six positions), and then sent me an email telling me my position had not changed. but I would not rank them #1, so my fear is while the computer was trying to put me in my first choice it would fill all their slots by perhaps going to #7 in their list in the same time - its such a gamble and I am not 100% certain the computer can accurately perform the algorhythm for 22,000 people with 100% accuracy.

This is just match jitters. If you are truly in their top 6 and they have 6 spots in the match, then you will match either in that program or something higher. The match cannot and will not screw this up. The algorithm is very straightforward and linear. No matter how the match is "run" you get exactly the same result every time (i.e. assuming there are 10,000 applicants, it doesn't matter if you start with applicant #1 or #10,000).

Mor specifically, let's say you rank this program #2 on your list (Hospital A). As the algorithm is being run, you are currently matched with your #1 (Hospital B) program as the lowest matched person on that list. Your #2 program is currently full also, and the algorithm is on the last person in the match. That person has ranked your #2 program at the top of their list, and they've similarly ranked them #1. Here's where we are:

Hosp A - Temporary / in progress matches:
Someone Else1
Someone Else2
Someone Else3
Someone Else4
Someone Else5
Someone Else6

Hosp B - Temporary / in progress matches:
Someone Else7
Someone Else8
Someone Else9
Someone Else10
Someone Else11
*** DOOWAI ***

Your Match List:
Rank #1: Hospital B
Rank #2: Hospital A

Hospital A's List:
1. ** DOOWAI **
2. Blah
3. Blah
4. Blah

Hospital B's List:
1. Last Person In Match
2. Blah
3. Blah
4. Blah
....
30. ** DOOWAI **
...

Last Person In Match's List:
1. Hospital B

OK, confusing I know, but there it is. Here's what happens:

1. Last person matches to Hospital B.
2. Everyone on Hosp B's list moves down one spot.
3. DOOWAI gets bumped off Hospital B's match list. Too bad, you don't get your first choice.
4. Match algorithm then looks at DOOWAI's #2 choice, and tries to match him to Hospital A.
5. HERE"S THE MAGIC, FOLKS: The match see's that DOOWAI is ranked #1 at Hospital A, puts him at the top of their list, and bumps everone down.
6. Someone Else6 is now unmatched, and the same process happens for that person.
7. The process stops when someone gets bumped into an empty unfilled slot, or someone fails to match.

Bottom line is this: DOOWAI cannot lose his guaranteed spot at Hospital A, unless he matches at Hospital B (which he ranked higher).

Also, the last person processed in the match is at no disadvantage -- they bump out people ranked lower than them by the programs.

 

[mlw03]

thanks for the thorough explanation, aProg.

to the OP: i like to believe we're dealing with honorable people (the PDs) and that if they say, "you're ranked to match" then it's the truth. medicine is a small enough field that PDs would be foolish to risk their own reputations by lying to applicants (which you'd surely let your dean of student affairs know about so s/he could warn future applicants). there's no reason for them to lie that blatantly when they can easily say something vague and non-comittal. i like to think that maybe some PDs are just nice and are telling you that so you can start thinking about your life in that new city.

 

[Leukocyte]

i like to think that maybe some PDs are just nice and are telling you that so you can start thinking about your life in that new city.

Been there, thought that, been screwed. However, unlike you guys, I am an IMG. Maybe they are more honest with AMGs?!

 

[mlw03]

Been there, thought that, been screwed. However, unlike you guys, I am an IMG. Maybe they are more honest with AMGs?!

you're saying you were explicitly told: you are ranked to match. and then failed to match at that program? that's f-ed up. i don't care if you're from harvard or from a tiny village in burma, you deserve honesty.

 

[ocean11]

I was told by the PD at my first choice residency program that I have been ranked to match. This conversation occurred in an after-interview follow up a couple weeks after my interview, and ended with the PD saying "we're excited to have your joining our program." I am wondering what others think about this.

Now I know that many will have horror stories about friends who were told they were "ranked very highly" or told during the interview "I'm sure you'll be ranked to match", but does anyone have examples of someone being told something like this after the interview and having it not happen?

To those who will reply "nothing is a guarantee, make sure you protect yourself," I fully intend to. I have interviewed at 8 other programs and intend to rank every one of them. I'm just looking for any input or experiences people have had. Thank you.

Hey,

I know a guy who matched this January (into one of the competitive surgical subspecilties) who did NOT get his #1 choice, even after the program told him that they ranked him VERY highly. After the match, he got his 5th or 6th place, his PD at his top ranked place called him and told him that if they had ONE more spot he would have matched, so they had 2 spots and he was ranked third.... sucks for him as he did electives there andthis was his ULTIMATE location.... he is now moving to a city which he does NOT like at ALL, but hey if you want something very competitive you'll go whereever they except u right?
I dont' think he would have this problem in IM or FM!

 

[Doowai]

you're saying you were explicitly told: you are ranked to match. and then failed to match at that program? that's f-ed up. i don't care if you're from harvard or from a tiny village in burma, you deserve honesty.

Yeah it will be interesting to see. 6 weeks with occassional bouts of anxiety coming up. I turned down a good prematch. But I want a great match - there are things I want to learn that are only available in some programs. So I turned down a prematch. It will be interesting to see where the dust settles.

 

[Doowai]

I was told by the PD at my first choice residency program that I have been ranked to match. This conversation occurred in an after-interview follow up a couple weeks after my interview, and ended with the PD saying "we're excited to have your joining our program." I am wondering what others think about this.

Now I know that many will have horror stories about friends who were told they were "ranked very highly" or told during the interview "I'm sure you'll be ranked to match", but does anyone have examples of someone being told something like this after the interview and having it not happen?

To those who will reply "nothing is a guarantee, make sure you protect yourself," I fully intend to. I have interviewed at 8 other programs and intend to rank every one of them. I'm just looking for any input or experiences people have had. Thank you.

Out of curiosity are you AMG/USMG or FMG/IMG?

 

[g34343]

I am a AMG (I'm assuming that means I go to a US school).

I'm glad everyone is talking through these various "promises". It helps to hear what experiences others have had.

I hope I can trust what the PD told me when I talked to her, and she seems like an honest person. Even though I am going into a pretty competitive specialty, I wouldn't think that would change whether people are honest. Thanks for all of your advice and opinions.

 

[SBlanc]

I just want to reiterate the lesson from Ocean11's post... Same thing happened to a friend of mine earlier this month (a female, so I know it's a different applicant) for one of the surgical subspecialties. Got a very telling love letter "ranked very highly, can't wait to work with you" from the PD at her top program. Ended up matching at a significantly less exciting city that was ranked like 5 or 6 or so. Which leads me to my cardinal rule of the match:

Trust no one.

 

[Doowai]

What a shame. In 6 weeks I may be starting a thread : did a PD lie to you.

The one PD I trust quite a bit.

I chose an okay education when I picked a Caribbean med school. This time I want to pick the best education I can. The program I have at the top of my list really teaches and provides an opportunity to develop. When evaluating things I looked at it from so many points of view : as a dad, as a son to my still living parents, to my wife, and as a future doctor. I looked at chances to moonlight, populations, demographics ; percent below poverty, ethnic percentages; weather : humidity, days of sunshine, amount of snow, etc. However when I just boil it down to education, post-grad education, then its much easier. WHere will I have the opportunity to be taught the most. If I fail at trying to get the best education, no regrets. Some sorrow perhaps, but no regrets - still can be proud of my choice.

 

[doctor_doctor]

hey guys,

could u guys give me some feedback on ur feelings about this email i got from a PD.....

Dear X,

Thank you so much for your kind note following your visit to Z University. It was a pleasure meeting with you during the interview process. You are certainly a highly qualified candidate and will be an asset to any residency program.

We’ve had our second candidate review meeting and all were in agreement that we would like very much to have you in our program next year. I know that talented applicants like you might be offered a pre-match position elsewhere. If that should happen, I strongly encourage you to stay in the match unless the opportunity comes from your “dream program”. If you do think of withdrawing from the match, please contact me first so we can discuss your options.

Let me know if you have any questions. I hope we will have the opportunity to work together next year.

Sincerely,
Dr. Y


I initially thought that if i pulled at it, i could get a prematch, but later found out that the program never offers prematch....I guess my question to u guys is, does it seem that i would be "ranked to match" with this program?

thankx for any input!

 

[yippyskippy]

hi doctor_doctor... tough to interpret. there is no guarantee, but it does sound positive. I would say the best you can do is take it as a complement - they really like you, which is super. what that translates to on a rank list is anybody's guess.

If you are thinking about withdrawing from the match and accepting a prematch somewhere, you should definitely call, as they say -- maybe they can give you something a little more specific (without you asking, of course), but without offering prematches there is just no guarantee.

I would say that you should feel psyched about yourself for getting such a letter, but should not make or change any plans based on it... just my 2 cents.
good luck!!

 

[dmitrinyr]

hey guys,

could u guys give me some feedback on ur feelings about this email i got from a PD.....

Dear X,

Thank you so much for your kind note following your visit to Z University. It was a pleasure meeting with you during the interview process. You are certainly a highly qualified candidate and will be an asset to any residency program.

We’ve had our second candidate review meeting and all were in agreement that we would like very much to have you in our program next year. I know that talented applicants like you might be offered a pre-match position elsewhere. If that should happen, I strongly encourage you to stay in the match unless the opportunity comes from your “dream program”. If you do think of withdrawing from the match, please contact me first so we can discuss your options.

Let me know if you have any questions. I hope we will have the opportunity to work together next year.

Sincerely,
Dr. Y

I got to say that his letter sounds very much like PD is about to offer you the pre-match but doesn't quite get to it. It's almost like he's teasing you. I think it goes a bit past just telling an applicant that they like them. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AwesomO]

I received similar letters including a letter that sounds like the PD talking in code that I am sure to match. However I'm not going to trust anything until either a) I receive my Match results or b) they fax me a signed contract. Until then it's a nice gesture but I don't put any significant weight into what they are saying.

 

[Anka]

There's a bit of a difference between a program telling an applicant "You are ranked highly." or "I hope to work with you next year" and "You are ranked to match". The first two are meaningless warm fuzzies. The latter, while it may be a lie, would have to be either a lie or the truth -- it's an unambiguous statement.

Anka

 

[SBlanc]

doctor_doctor-

The letter means nothing (see my cardinal rule). Assume you are not ranked to match, because if you were, they would have told you that outright. You may call them as someone else suggested, but remember that it is a match violation to ask where you stand with a program - they can only offer you information, but you can't ask. To me, the program is saying - we want to submit a rank list with you on it, but we're aware that you might get a prematch somewhere, and we're trying to cover our butts in case we go down far enough on our list to get to you.

I know it's hard, but if I were you, I would try to proceed as if you had never received this letter. Do what you need to do knowing this is by NO means a guarantee.

 

[Mustbeexhaustin]

agree w/ SBlanc

 

[yaah]

There's a bit of a difference between a program telling an applicant "You are ranked highly." or "I hope to work with you next year" and "You are ranked to match". The first two are meaningless warm fuzzies. The latter, while it may be a lie, would have to be either a lie or the truth -- it's an unambiguous statement.

Indeed. There is a huge difference between the two. It's like how there is a huge difference between you telling a program "you're my top choice" and telling them "you are one of my top choices." You might very well be happy and thrilled to match at program B, but it isn't your top choice.

Programs play games, but so do applicants.

The lesson, which keeps getting reiterated but people keep ignoring anyway, is to rank the program in the order you want to go. And lesson #2 is don't lie. You really can't control what other people or programs do, but if you conduct yourself honestly and ethically you will benefit in the end. Do you really want to be at a program that lies to its applicants anyway?

 

[DingleBerry]

hey guys,

could u guys give me some feedback on ur feelings about this email i got from a PD.....

Dear X,

Thank you so much for your kind note following your visit to Z University. It was a pleasure meeting with you during the interview process. You are certainly a highly qualified candidate and will be an asset to any residency program.

We’ve had our second candidate review meeting and all were in agreement that we would like very much to have you in our program next year. I know that talented applicants like you might be offered a pre-match position elsewhere. If that should happen, I strongly encourage you to stay in the match unless the opportunity comes from your “dream program”. If you do think of withdrawing from the match, please contact me first so we can discuss your options.

Let me know if you have any questions. I hope we will have the opportunity to work together next year.

Sincerely,
Dr. Y


I initially thought that if i pulled at it, i could get a prematch, but later found out that the program never offers prematch....I guess my question to u guys is, does it seem that i would be "ranked to match" with this program?

thankx for any input!

sorry to derail this thread and please forgive me ignorance, but I thought what is this pre-matching business? I thought it was illegal to take a position outside of the match?

 

[DingleBerry]

disregard my above post, found the answer

 

[doctor_doctor]

thanks guys for the input.....i guess i'll just play the waiting game.....man, march 20th seems so freakin far away!!!....hehehehe....

btw, do u guys think this thank you letter reply deserves another "i'm flattered, thanks for complement" letter?

 

[Doowai]

A PD in a program that taught what I wanted told me he could not offer a prematch to me, since he only offered one per year, but I was ranked high enough that if I put them down I should match with them (he did not tell me exactly where I ranked).

I was offered a prematch at a place that logically was pretty good : did not teach everything I wanted (procedures) but paid well ($51K intern year), great retirement savings program, had great vacation time (4 weeks intern year), slow paced hospital - not to much work, near family (2 hours drive). Very small town which I did not like. Very low crime. Can get licensed after second year and moonlight 3rd year. Cold. I turned it down and felt sick for days for doing so.

Last night, in the evening the PD who told me I was ranked to match called me. Something happened to the one person they had prematched, so it was open and he offered it to me - and I jumped at it. It is small and has alot of crime. It is far from family. It is a small town - not as small as the other one but small. Good pay, no retirement savings, average vacation, high crime, warm. No licensure until after 3rd year, no moonlighting. Teaches alot of procedures.

My mind and heart are still arguing - my mind thinks of the money I could have saved , the safe little town, close to family, and who cares about FP doing procedures because only specialties with do them anyway. But my heart felt uneasy about it. My mind says this new prematch which I accepted is in a crime area, small, no savings plan, no moonlighting, no early licensure, far from family - but my heart feels peaceful about it. My mind says medicine is just a job and if you take a job make the most money, get the most vacation and do something really important like spend time with family.

Not sure if I made a good choice and feel peaceful or if I am inherently self destructive.

However - I found I could trust what the PD told me. He told me that I was ranked to match, and he wishes he could offer me the prematch, but it was already taken. When it opened up he called me and offered it - I am sure he was being honest when he said I was ranked to match.

So my experience is trust the PD's - if they say you are ranked to match they are probably being honest.

 

[SBlanc]

Doowai - A heartwarming tale, indeed... Congrats to you. For those of us who are American seniors going through the regular match, I maintain that we should Trust No One. Too many people get burned after hearing they're ranked to match somewhere and rearranging their whole rank lists and whatnot. Just put them in order of preference and when a PD calls or emails you, smile and nod.

thanks guys for the input.....i guess i'll just play the waiting game.....man, march 20th seems so freakin far away!!!....hehehehe....

btw, do u guys think this thank you letter reply deserves another "i'm flattered, thanks for complement" letter?

Umm... you want to send a "thank you for the thank you" letter? I'm gonna say no. You and this program have already had enough pillow talk. They've told you what they're going to tell you, now try to distract yourself for the next month and a half.

 

[randomedstudent]

thanks for the thorough explanation, aProg.

to the OP: i like to believe we're dealing with honorable people (the PDs) and that if they say, "you're ranked to match" then it's the truth. medicine is a small enough field that PDs would be foolish to risk their own reputations by lying to applicants (which you'd surely let your dean of student affairs know about so s/he could warn future applicants). there's no reason for them to lie that blatantly when they can easily say something vague and non-comittal. i like to think that maybe some PDs are just nice and are telling you that so you can start thinking about your life in that new city.

haha, that is hilarious! Ultimately, PD's have one goal and that is filling their program with the best residents possible (at least what they believe based on a 5 hour interview, often they turn out to be very wrong, but I digress). Unfortunately, I didn't match last year after being told I would. Also I know of many other people who received all sorts of these "we've ranked you #1", "you are ranked to match", etc and matched elsewhere or not at all.

Be forewarned by someone who learned the hard way - DO NOT put ANY stock into any of these comments. Rank places the way you like them and rank plenty of them.

 

[mlw03]

haha, that is hilarious! Ultimately, PD's have one goal and that is filling their program with the best residents possible (at least what they believe based on a 5 hour interview, often they turn out to be very wrong, but I digress). Unfortunately, I didn't match last year after being told I would. Also I know of many other people who received all sorts of these "we've ranked you #1", "you are ranked to match", etc and matched elsewhere or not at all.

Be forewarned by someone who learned the hard way - DO NOT put ANY stock into any of these comments. Rank places the way you like them and rank plenty of them.

so let me ask you if you made sure to tell other students that this program director lied to you? and if no, why the heck not? i agree with your comment about ranking programs how you want.

 

[sikegeek]

Are PDs really deceitful? How can they get away with it? I was sort of encouraged by a conversation with one, but these posts make me really worry.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Are PDs really deceitful?

Some are, some aren't. Some just don't know how to end a conversation with a candidate...just like after a bad date...you don't tell the loser to GTH, but rather, thank them and tell them to give you a call, right?

How can they get away with it? I was sort of encouraged by a conversation with one, but these posts make me really worry.

Because there are no rules against it. We cannot legislate good manners or honesty.

 

[mlw03]

Some are, some aren't. Some just don't know how to end a conversation with a candidate...just like after a bad date...you don't tell the loser to GTH, but rather, thank them and tell them to give you a call, right?



Because there are no rules against it. We cannot legislate good manners or honesty.

no, but we can show PDs there are repercussions to lying. SDN is a perfect forum for this. i would encourage any applicant who was told "ranked to match" and then fell below that program on their rank list to make that known here. obviously there's nothing to stop someone from lying, but perhaps it could cause there to be some accountability for PDs who make that promise to candidates when it is not true. what do people think of this idea? if there's a positive response someone (me?) should start such a thread in mid-March. hopefully it doesn't result in a lot of people reporting such behavior, but at least it would be a way for candidates to warn future applicants. and it'd show PDs there are penalties for lying to applicants.

 

[Doowai]

So the program that offered me the prematch sending me a letter to that effect. It then says I have to fill out a state board application, program application and send a copy of my ECFMG certificate before they send a contract.

Just wondering everyones slant on that - who says aye and who says nay.

 

[gutonc]

So the program that offered me the prematch sending me a letter to that effect. It then says I have to fill out a state board application, program application and send a copy of my ECFMG certificate before they send a contract.

Just wondering everyones slant on that - who says aye and who says nay.

They're basically asking you to prove that you can show up and legally work on July 1. Not at all unreasonable IMHO. Assuming you don't have any legal skeletons in your closet to mess up the first 2 things, you need ECFMG anyway. Again, if all of this isn't done and a signed contract isn't in your hands on Match Day, stay in the Match.

 

[mlw03]

So the program that offered me the prematch sending me a letter to that effect. It then says I have to fill out a state board application, program application and send a copy of my ECFMG certificate before they send a contract.

Just wondering everyones slant on that - who says aye and who says nay.

i would say that unless you have a signed contract before 2/27 then you should not withdraw from the match. letters of commitment are well and good, but as my lawyer friends tell me, "if it's not in writing it didn't happen."

 

[dmitrinyr]

i would say that unless you have a signed contract before 2/27 then you should not withdraw from the match. letters of commitment are well and good, but as my lawyer friends tell me, "if it's not in writing it didn't happen."

I agree. From the point of view of the program this action seems a bit shady but from the applicant's point of view, if it's not in writing you don't officially have a spot.

 

[Winged Scapula]

So the program that offered me the prematch sending me a letter to that effect. It then says I have to fill out a state board application, program application and send a copy of my ECFMG certificate before they send a contract.

Just wondering everyones slant on that - who says aye and who says nay.

Sounds reasonable for them to ask for that...what does not is them asking you to withdraw from the match without a signed contract from them.

 

[Winged Scapula]

no, but we can show PDs there are repercussions to lying. SDN is a perfect forum for this. i would encourage any applicant who was told "ranked to match" and then fell below that program on their rank list to make that known here. obviously there's nothing to stop someone from lying, but perhaps it could cause there to be some accountability for PDs who make that promise to candidates when it is not true. what do people think of this idea? if there's a positive response someone (me?) should start such a thread in mid-March. hopefully it doesn't result in a lot of people reporting such behavior, but at least it would be a way for candidates to warn future applicants. and it'd show PDs there are penalties for lying to applicants.

I understand where you're going with this but I expect:

1) threads to be removed which will be interpreted as libel or slander; opinion is ok, but to call someone a liar is not

2) no way to know whether the PD was lying when they made such a comment or was being truthful but things changed after the interview;

3) no way to know if the person responding here misinterpreted what they heard

 

[mlw03]

I understand where you're going with this but I expect:

1) threads to be removed which will be interpreted as libel or slander; opinion is ok, but to call someone a liar is not

2) no way to know whether the PD was lying when they made such a comment or was being truthful but things changed after the interview;

3) no way to know if the person responding here misinterpreted what they heard

very legit points. i'm just trying to find a mechanism by which PDs are held accountable for their words, but i understand that SDN wouldn't want to get themselves involved in a potential lawsuit for slander from a PD.

 

[SippiGirl08]

There's also the possibility that they underestimate their list.

For example, program A traditionally goes down to student number 20 on their ROL to fill all 5 of their categorical positions. They rank you at number 19 so you are "ranked to match". However, they underestimate the number of people who will rank them highly and they only go down to number 15 on their list to fill all 5 positions...therefore, you do not match there.

am i the only person who actually read this post or is everyone simply ignoring it just so they can toss their two cents onto the thread? Winged Scapula is registered as an attending (which i realize does not equal PD) but i'm willing to listen to what he has to say. if this is how PDs define "ranked to match," then they are not technically lying to you by telling you this, even if you don't end up matching there.

i had a PD basically tell me this. he said, "there is no reason why you shouldn't match here." then in another conversation, "you are in our top 20." but they only take 10 per year... so obviously his definition is based on previous statistics on how far down the list he usually has to go, while my definition of "ranked to match" would have me in the top 10 of 10 available spots.

like someone said above: trust no one!

 

[Winged Scapula]

am i the only person who actually read this post or is everyone simply ignoring it just so they can toss their two cents onto the thread? Winged Scapula is registered as an attending (which i realize does not equal PD) but i'm willing to listen to what he has to say. if this is how PDs define "ranked to match," then they are not technically lying to you by telling you this, even if you don't end up matching there.

Eh...I'm used to it after 8 years here. When people have got a theory, it holds fast, regardless of how much evidence there is to the contrary.

BTW, I'm a she and this is based on my experiences during residency, fellowship and beyond. "Ranked to Match" doesn't necessarily = "You WILL match at our program", IMHO.

 

[EtOHWithdrawal]

Just to add my experience at one program...

Interviewed, had a good day, received a follow up call, was told to call an additional attending (which I did), and finally told I was "ranked to match." Needless to say, I ended up matching below them on my list.

I assume that "ranked to match" meant something more along the lines of what WS said, that normally we go to #20 on our list, you were ranked 19, but this year we filled at 12... Sorry.

Just be careful. Rank programs by your preference only.

 

[Faebinder]

Just to add my experience at one program...

Interviewed, had a good day, received a follow up call, was told to call an additional attending (which I did), and finally told I was "ranked to match." Needless to say, I ended up matching below them on my list.

I assume that "ranked to match" meant something more along the lines of what WS said, that normally we go to #20 on our list, you were ranked 19, but this year we filled at 12... Sorry.

Just be careful. Rank programs by your preference only.

Ranked to match translates to me "We have X number of slots and you were ranked X or higher on the list thereby garaunteeing your match". You are right, rank in the order you prefer. Forget about this pillow of we want you bad. There is always a better applicant.

 

[Rogue_Leader]

So what I'm seeing is that "Ranked to match" means "Maybe you'll match here". So I guess the E-Mail I got today which said "I expect that you will match with us if you choose to do so" means what, "better luck next year"? 😛

 

[Integra96]

I wonder if most programs tell applicants who are actually ranked highly/ranked to match that this is the case, or if most don't commit to saying such things - even to their highest ranked applicants. I'm starting to worry about the generic-sounding communications that I've received from PDs - i.e., "thank you for your continued interest, we'd be delighted to have you as housestaff", etc.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Look...something you guys are forgetting is that ranking of applicants is not a one man show.

A faculty member could love, love, love you but in the ranking session perhaps there are others who didn't feel as strongly, or simply other candidates who got an overall higher ranking.

Sure some faculty members, even the PD or Department Chair could browbeat others in to ranking "their" fav higher or even "fix" the results. In my residency program, faculty members were often overruled by the RESIDENTs - it was felt that applicants showed their "true" selves around the housestaff and if we didn't like them, then regardless of how the faculty felt, they dropped down the ranking list.

In fellowship, it was a different story...basically because you worked so closely with the PD, the impression was that it didn't matter what the other faculty said about a candidate, the persons ranked highest were the ones the PD wanted most.

Bottom line is that you don't really know what everyone else says, or how you stack up against the rest of the candidates, nor does the faculty member telling you you will "rank to match".

 

[Hard24Get]

Look...something you guys are forgetting is that ranking of applicants is not a one man show.

A faculty member could love, love, love you but in the ranking session perhaps there are others who didn't feel as strongly, or simply other candidates who got an overall higher ranking.

Sure some faculty members, even the PD or Department Chair could browbeat others in to ranking "their" fav higher or even "fix" the results. In my residency program, faculty members were often overruled by the RESIDENTs - it was felt that applicants showed their "true" selves around the housestaff and if we didn't like them, then regardless of how the faculty felt, they dropped down the ranking list.

In fellowship, it was a different story...basically because you worked so closely with the PD, the impression was that it didn't matter what the other faculty said about a candidate, the persons ranked highest were the ones the PD wanted most.

Bottom line is that you don't really know what everyone else says, or how you stack up against the rest of the candidates, nor does the faculty member telling you you will "rank to match".

Makes sense, but what about those letters that say, "We had our match meeting, and we all thought you'd be a great fit/outstanding, etc". Doesn't that imply they are communicating the consensus 😕

 

[Winged Scapula]

Makes sense, but what about those letters that say, "We had our match meeting, and we all thought you'd be a great fit/outstanding, etc". Doesn't that imply they are communicating the consensus 😕

Sure...if they say that they've met and they ALL thought you'd be a great fit/whatever, then it does imply a consensus.

However, a great fit doesn't necessarily mean you will be ranked to match or ranked highly. I've seen candidates who I thought would be great fits but we didn't rank them because:

1) we knew they weren't going to rank us highly (ie, it was clear we were their safety program or they told us they weren't going to)
2) their spouse hated the area or wouldn't be able to find a job
3) we couldn't provide what they needed or wanted from a residency program

So while its likely that such a letter from a program is a good sign, it is not a promise that you will be ranked and bear in mind that the consensus is only true at the moment it was made. Others who have interviewed after, further info that comes to light or simply a change of heart on faculty member's parts can affect where you rank. There are often just too many great fits to rank everyone highly.

 

[Hard24Get]

So while its likely that such a letter from a program is a good sign, it is not a promise that you will be ranked and bear in mind that the consensus is only true at the moment it was made. Others who have interviewed after, further info that comes to light or simply a change of heart on faculty member's parts can affect where you rank. There are often just too many great fits to rank everyone highly.

thanks. 🙁